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McLaren Honda MP4-31 Part IV


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#1 Gareth

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:54

Carry on ...



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#2 ermo

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:06

New fuel & new turbo.

What could possibly go wrong in Canada? :D

#3 restless

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:07

dual DNF due to new turbo? :p



#4 wj_gibson

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:32

I think it inevitable that upgrades will cause some retirements, but what else can they do with no in-season testing?



#5 Nicktendo86

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:39

I thought Honda said they were holding back making small token upgrades as they wanted to spend a lot to make a significant gain, but they are spending just two for no HP gain. Am I the only one confused by that?

#6 DavidCano

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:42

I understand there are no horsepower improvements this time, just efficiency and new Mobil1 oil. I do not expect any huge improvements in terms of lap times. Moreover Renault and Ferrari have improved as well. 



#7 Muzzyf1

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:44

Just because honda said no hp gain doesn't really mean none 😎 off course they will say that just to keep em guessing .

A new turbo could mean bigger exhaust wheel less back pressure will help immensely with efficiency of the engine.

#8 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:51

So if the reports are to be believed, Honda had 0.3 seconds from software since beginning of the year, Mobil 1 adds 0.1 seconds, and the bigger turbo 0.1 = total 0.5 seconds improvement?

 

Does that means they achieved the same half second improvement as Renault from 2 tokens instead of 3? :p



#9 CPR

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:53

As always, we'll have to wait and see the results on the track and as has generally been the case our best benchmark will be STR. Without any upgrades I think this would be one of the worst tracks for us vs them (maybe 0.2s behind in quali, 0.5s in the race).



#10 Christophe77

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:59

So... when ARE we getting some extra horses?? 



#11 restless

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:10

My wild guess:

It was planned to change turbo's for Canada - because they had run expected number of races.

So the change/token used is "for free" in terms of used units (5 per season)

 

ICE on the other hand are "fresh" with only 2 races on them, so decision was taken to use these for at least 2 more races - tweaking& testing in same time, hoping they'll be able to add more token upgrades in these 2-3-4 weeks



#12 Rudex

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:16

So if the reports are to be believed, Honda had 0.3 seconds from software since beginning of the year, Mobil 1 adds 0.1 seconds, and the bigger turbo 0.1 = total 0.5 seconds improvement?

 

Does that means they achieved the same half second improvement as Renault from 2 tokens instead of 3? :p

 

 Well if you take in mind Renault put 0.5s at stat of session and another 0.5s here en Montreal with spec B ICE, it is 1second improvement.

The Honda 0.1s from fuel and 0.1 from ERS it is dependent. We dont know how much they are getting from mguh, maybe improve whole process and get more in this circuit since MGUH is very important here. Well, this improvement will be more noticed in race, in qualty with full battery charge is possible only the nuew fuel and optimization whole ice ers working.

 

I supposes they put here the new turbine, since the turbine is single element and the spec will be the same than they will use with new combustion so they can put here, where the mguh is very important and later will fit the mapping with new combustion. The tubine will no change.



#13 smr

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:20

new turbo? sauce?

 

edit - ok seen it, woot!!


Edited by smr, 09 June 2016 - 10:21.


#14 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:34

 Well if you take in mind Renault put 0.5s at stat of session and another 0.5s here en Montreal with spec B ICE, it is 1second improvement.

The Honda 0.1s from fuel and 0.1 from ERS it is dependent. We dont know how much they are getting from mguh, maybe improve whole process and get more in this circuit since MGUH is very important here. Well, this improvement will be more noticed in race, in qualty with full battery charge is possible only the nuew fuel and optimization whole ice ers working.

 

I supposes they put here the new turbine, since the turbine is single element and the spec will be the same than they will use with new combustion so they can put here, where the mguh is very important and later will fit the mapping with new combustion. The tubine will no change.

 

Well, just comparing in-season improvement, and ta-da~

 

Also, probably no one knows how to quantify the ERS improvement by Honda at the beginning of the year. Just because there is no peak output improvement from Honda at the beginning of the year, didnt mean we didnt also find a big chunk or 0.5s a lap from ERS improvement, which is the big part of the efficiency everyone is emphasizing, and rightly so.


Edited by TakataDomeNSX, 09 June 2016 - 10:44.


#15 Owen

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:51

I thought Honda said they were holding back making small token upgrades as they wanted to spend a lot to make a significant gain, but they are spending just two for no HP gain. Am I the only one confused by that?

Perhaps not power gain but there's lap time gain.   :up:



#16 muramasa

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:11

 

 

[EDIT: putting jp press report summary of monaco here]

 

 

Monaco summary

all dotted parts are Hasegawa quotes

 

 

Thursday ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://f1sokuho.mopi...3&tt=1003&at=15
 

  • We want to make it to Q3 with both cars, but havent settled on setup and drivers were saying "understeer so car doesnt turn".
  • Still we are above Williams and Ferrari is not too far

 

 


Saturday -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://f1sokuho.mopi...548&tt=-1&at=30

 

  • Redone setup work from scratch on Friday (rest day for Monaco)
  • We were surprised that the car didnt turn corners well. Setup itself has been improved, but couldnt make tyres function well.
  • For this time's quali, we used 2 preceding laps for warm up before making attack lap, but the car turns in but traction is bad on the 1st lap, then on the 2nd lap it suffers from understeer.
  • We are disappointed because we had high expectation, but this is where we are at the moment. This made it clear, I think Force India has quite a good car. Even better than Williams, so today it's clear that they are doing very good job. Both STR and FI are fast. Talked with mclaren's engineers and he said "have to admit that". Both Mclaren and Honda have a lot to work on.
  • This time, team side was admitting about making mistake in setup direction. Not admitting about whether the car itself is bad or not, but saying  "couldnt extract chassis performance in full", and "shouldve made suspension setting bit softer".
  • Certainly if you look at individual element one by one like each component's performance, front wing's downforce amount etc, it's progressing definitely. So we dont think we are beaten by Force India in each of those factors themselves, but thing is about why we cannot get everything together.

 

  • I dont want to say sort of things that we criticize each other, but approach towards race weekend was, well. Our PU was unable to extract performance properly in the opening race, but now have come to the stage where we can extract max out of it, so in that sense, room for further improvement is bigger in chassis right now perhaps.    

 

 

Sunday -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://f1sokuho.mopi...633&tt=-1&at=15
http://sportiva.shue.../06/01/post_45/

 

 

  • Today's result is solely down to the drivers. The track condition in wet was very slippery so you couldnt even talk about car balance. In such condition, our 2 drivers made good race in composed manner.
  • This year radio communication has been restricted/tightened, but the pit can still ask drivers about track condition and weather, so I think engineers shared the two drivers feedback very well and managed to fight nicely as one team.
  • timing of Alonso's 2nd pitstop was perfect. At that time, it was crossover point between intermediate and dry, but still intermediate was marginally faster so that we made him push 1 more lap before call him in.
  • It is important to make a fast car, but what's essential is the capability of drivers who drive it and competence of the whole team including ability of each engineer that make it run.
  • late in the race, Alonso was informed by the pit that front runners were catching up so we were going to be 1L down soon, and Alonso replied "that makes it one less defending lap so that's lucky". I guess pressure from Rosberg was so immense.

 
 

 

on tokens -----------------------------------------------------------------

 

posted this before but reposting with few bits added

most quotes are from Thursday

 

http://www.as-web.jp/f1/18201
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/20470
 

 

  • it's no longer a stage where we are waiting for it, we want to introduce it as soon as possible. When/after we are able to confirm the outcome/achievement, we'd like to inform you by the form of saying "to tell you the truth, what we've put was actually something like this".  

 

- Eric B answering to Japan's FujiTV
"The timing of token introduction has been decided, but I cannot reveal."
 

 

  • (situation like putting token upgrade to JB's PU only first at Canada can happen?) We are not introducing upgrade separately (between drivers). Even if use token, it is ok that engine block itself is the same/unchanged, so in terms of engine itself we are going with the same one.

 

Alonso's new ICE for Monaco received reliability upgrade

  • This time's reliability upgrade is a measure that takes future prospect into consideration. We could confirm the reliability that one PU goes through 4GPs, but in order to further increase power and mileage at the same time in future, there were areas that required reinforcement. So we took measure for that (with reliability upgrade for Monaco).

 

 

  • We've done our all to the extent that we cannot extract more power out of current spec anymore. Regarding increasing power, we are in the middle of trialing various ideas right now, so if we can make it in time, we want to introduce as soon as possible.
  • Need to validate and verify many things before finally giving green light, so atm nothing has been decided yet. But we will do our utmost to make it in time for cargo flight deadline

 

bit too fragmented so to summarize:

- when to use token decided already but wont tell when in advance (Eric B, Hasegawa)

- nuance of Hasegawa comment suggest it's imminent (canada or the one next rather than many races later)

- From Hasegawa's comment above ("go with same engine block" part), the writer is guessing the change can be for those non-restricted components, same as what Merc and Ferrari did at Sochi, hence it might be injection or ignition related rather than one or few of the 6 sealed/restricted components itself, which I think is legit guessing and one of the possibilities.

 

 

 

=====================

========================

 

 

 

in recent jp F1 magazine (monaco gp edition, print), Nakamura says that regarding turbo and electric-related they've reached certain target already but ICE can be a lot better and that's where the current focus/challenge is at. In the same interview but on different context he also said sometimes it's necessary to reduce engine power in order for total efficiency (it's good interview so maybe i'll make summary later).

So if they are indeed to change turbo, I have to guess it's about being able to harvest more efficiently without or with less compromising/sacrificing ICE performance, rather than increase amount of harvest for more deployment. With current formula one must always with the other tho. Or simply prep for future ICE upgrade.

 

anyway these motorsport.com and autosport article, it looks like leaked info and no official info/quote from honda/mc/fia in there at all, so at this moment this is still tentative. Have to wait official words from their own mouths/outlet.


Edited by muramasa, 10 June 2016 - 13:29.


#17 aray

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:18

I just hope this dreaded fuel saving and lifting will be sorted out with this..



#18 realracer200

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:19

I think they should try to increase the power by at least 20 HP.



#19 Amphicar

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:27

new turbo? sauce?

 

If you insist....

 

conch%20turbo%20sauce-3(2).jpg



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#20 Joseki

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:47

Maybe this time Alonso will not look like an amateur.



#21 muramasa

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:47

I just hope this dreaded fuel saving and lifting will be sorted out with this..

there is no evidence that there was such thing as "dread" fuel saving  and lifting at Barcelona etc at all as i explained already, and even tho they were saying fuel saving a lot and probably more than any others to lesser or greater degree in Sochi as well as Bahrain, other makers were the same (at least Ferrari as Kimi seem to have said he was saving fuel a lot) and I dont see their fuel saving at even those tracks were "dreaded" level (otherwise how could JB keep following the 7-8-9-10-.. pack and attacking til the checkered flag?). It's like saying "just because mclaren chassis is not Merc/Ferrari/RBR level, it means it is manor level". it's true that their fuel economy can be better but large part of performance deficit in race is simply down to lack of power. Increase power = energy out of mandated 100kg/h fuel then you go faster and better management overall.


Edited by muramasa, 09 June 2016 - 11:49.


#22 Pro4TLZZ

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:55

Honda upgrade in addition to an upgraded fuel design for McLaren. Combustion-design upgrade expected later in season


#23 rodlamas

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:31

New fuel & new turbo.

What could possibly go wrong in Canada? :D

Maybe we will run out of.... FUEL!



#24 CPR

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:35

For some PU upgrades, the overall benefit might correlate quite nicely with an increase in peak power... and in some cases there will be none. Combustion changes would probably be the best example of the former and ERS changes would be the best example of the latter. For example, the ERS fixes Honda brought over the winter had no improvement on peak power but those fixes helped race pace by over 0.5s a lap.

 

For a change to the turbo, the effects would depend on the changes made. Personally, I'm not expecting reliable indications of what the lap time improvement would be until later in the weekend. If the change improves the amount of energy captured from the exhaust across the rev range then that would make more energy available for the ICE (through the compressor) or the MGU-H or both. If the current ICE design would not benefit from increased maximum boost then it would probably not increase peak power but would probably mean that maximum boost can be used across a wider rev range, increasing power at lower revs. There's all sorts of possibilities.



#25 rodlamas

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:37

My wild guess:

It was planned to change turbo's for Canada - because they had run expected number of races.

So the change/token used is "for free" in terms of used units (5 per season)

 

ICE on the other hand are "fresh" with only 2 races on them, so decision was taken to use these for at least 2 more races - tweaking& testing in same time, hoping they'll be able to add more token upgrades in these 2-3-4 weeks

Problem is all tracks from now on are power demanding.

 

Canada

Baku

Austria

Silverstone

 

If you wait for a new cycle, you will have to wait until Spa, and there is lots of points up for grabs on the next few races.



#26 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:48

I think it's possible there are power upgrades that they do not yet want to advertise.

 

Underpromise over deliver and all that?



#27 rodlamas

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:13

I think it's possible there are power upgrades that they do not yet want to advertise.

 

Underpromise over deliver and all that?

No. Token usage is public. And it is impossible to upgrade PU without using tokens.



#28 Owen

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:18

I think it's possible there are power upgrades that they do not yet want to advertise.

 

Underpromise over deliver and all that?

I think it's possible there are power upgrades that haven't been carried out yet. But I suspect we'll have to wait for those until later in the season.



#29 SPORT1

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:18

New fuel & new turbo.

What could possibly go wrong in Canada? :D

 

double DNF and being overtaken by manor's in the straights
 


Edited by SPORT1, 09 June 2016 - 13:19.


#30 chhatra

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:19

I think it's possible there are power upgrades that they do not yet want to advertise.

Underpromise over deliver and all that?


Only if someone's managed to put a sock in EB's mouth.

He has been quiet of late, which is no bad thing.

#31 Owen

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:20

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1  1h1 hour ago

Honda upgrade in addition to an upgraded fuel design for McLaren. Combustion-design upgrade expected later in season


Edited by Owen, 09 June 2016 - 13:20.


#32 Maustinsj

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:21

Carry on ...

 

11sBLVxNs7v6WA.gif


Edited by Maustinsj, 09 June 2016 - 13:22.


#33 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:22

No. Token usage is public. And it is impossible to upgrade PU without using tokens.


Number of tokens used (edit: and the area they are used for?) is public, but the exact changes made and the expectations are not.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 09 June 2016 - 13:24.


#34 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:26

What I mean is that power maybe is up as well, but they aren't saying anything about it yet.



#35 pup

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:28

I think it's possible there are power upgrades that they do not yet want to advertise.

 

Underpromise over deliver and all that?

 

Likely that the turbo, ICU upgrade and fuel are designed to complement one another, so the full impact of the upgrade won't be seen until the upgrade cycle is complete.  My guess is that they don't want to do the ICU upgrade until a planned engine swap - that or it simply isn't ready.  Possibly the debate on whether to do the turbo this race was centered on whether it provided any benefit or would work properly with the current ICU.  Pure speculation of course.



#36 pup

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:30

I thought Honda said they were holding back making small token upgrades as they wanted to spend a lot to make a significant gain, but they are spending just two for no HP gain. Am I the only one confused by that?

 

That's what we hoped, but I thought the last rumor was that they weren't going to have enough tokens to do the upgrade they wanted, so it's incremental changes until next season.



#37 pup

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:32

Perhaps not power gain but there's lap time gain.   :up:

 

Yep.  Better harvesting means better fuel economy, more time on the throttle, lighter car, etc.  Maybe it even opens the setup window a bit wider.


Edited by pup, 09 June 2016 - 13:36.


#38 argiriano

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:39

I thought Honda said they were holding back making small token upgrades as they wanted to spend a lot to make a significant gain, but they are spending just two for no HP gain. Am I the only one confused by that?

You just getting it wrong. 

 

Soon some nice gentleman over here will explain it to you, just be patient.   ;)

 

 

So if the reports are to be believed, Honda had 0.3 seconds from software since beginning of the year, Mobil 1 adds 0.1 seconds, and the bigger turbo 0.1 = total 0.5 seconds improvement?

 

Does that means they achieved the same half second improvement as Renault from 2 tokens instead of 3?  :p

No. 

Renault were reported to be made approximately the same 0.5sec jump over the winter, and Honda are said to be less powerful than last year at the start of this year so it`s fair to say Renault made around 1sec jump 7 races into the 2016 season and Honda made around 0.2sec jump. Also don`t forget that those 0.3 includes the double digits HP boost by the previous fuel upgrade from Exxon-Mobil. 

 

 

Well, just comparing in-season improvement, and ta-da~

 

Also, probably no one knows how to quantify the ERS improvement by Honda at the beginning of the year. Just because there is no peak output improvement from Honda at the beginning of the year, didnt mean we didnt also find a big chunk or 0.5s a lap from ERS improvement, which is the big part of the efficiency everyone is emphasizing, and rightly so.

 

I thought it was a fix of non-working ERS, that`s why I guess no one here mention it in the context of upgrades. 

Also I didn`t saw anyone over here denying the fact that Honda made some serious improvement on ERS ground over the winter, even though people from Honda said that are not entirely happy and will seek further improvements. 



#39 CPR

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:50

Problem is all tracks from now on are power demanding.

 

Canada

Baku

Austria

Silverstone

 

If you wait for a new cycle, you will have to wait until Spa, and there is lots of points up for grabs on the next few races.

 

It's possible that there'll be more token upgrades after Canada and before the ICE upgrade (supposedly due in Spa). Both Honda and McLaren have hinted that there's multiple upgrades in the pipeline. We shall see.

 

Certainly more ERS/efficiency upgrades would be welcome, particularly before Austria as Austria and Silverstone are particularly dependant on having a good MGU-H (as there's less energy from MGU-K)

 

I also hope they can really sort out of the tires before we get to Hungary...



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#40 muramasa

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:57

What I mean is that power maybe is up as well, but they aren't saying anything about it yet.

as i wrote above, Nakamura said they've already reached certain target for turbo and electric-related itself and now focusing on ICE (as well as sometimes it is necessary to supress ICE power in order for total efficiency), so whatever changes to turbo may well result in practical ICE power increase (without or less constrain on ICE) esp in race condition.

 

If current leaked info turns out to be true though.



#41 argiriano

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 13:58

What I mean is that power maybe is up as well, but they aren't saying anything about it yet.

It may well be that way but I`m more keen to believe that they are about much improved efficiency than outright power.

And it seems a small upgrade that could deliver bigger boost with future upgrades I guess. 

 

 

Likely that the turbo, ICU upgrade and fuel are designed to complement one another, so the full impact of the upgrade won't be seen until the upgrade cycle is complete.  My guess is that they don't want to do the ICU upgrade until a planned engine swap - that or it simply isn't ready.  Possibly the debate on whether to do the turbo this race was centered on whether it provided any benefit or would work properly with the current ICU.  Pure speculation of course.

 

Yeah I see it just like that. 



#42 Petroltorque

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 14:27

It's only logical that Honda concentrate on the efficiency of the ERS. That has been their a chilled heel. Taking more energy from the Turbine via the MGU-HEAT means the ICE has to compensate less and the can run higher modes for longer and race pace is increased.. Less lift and coast as some here like to put it. Power improvement would require combustion changes but there is no point increasing power till they sort the ERS. It's unlikely that the turbo should be any less reliable since it has to be validated first.

#43 Joseki

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 15:41

http://www.skysports...r-honda-upgrade

 

"People would think this isn't a circuit that will suit our car, I think it's going to be alright. We have come here with some upgrades, which should help us. It's not big, but it should help us."

 

So usual P10-P13 expected.



#44 Alonsofan007

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 15:49

Hasegawa in/before monaco said they have ICE changes that don't need tokens (parts that were frozen previously but opened up for development) hopefully can also bring some hp. every bit helps :up:


Edited by Alonsofan007, 09 June 2016 - 15:56.


#45 f1tomi8

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 16:10

McLaren-Formel-1-GP-Kanada-Montreal-9-6-



#46 Gary Davies

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 16:57

new turbo? sauce?
 
edit - ok seen it, woot!!


"Sauce?" This being motor racing, one imagines the answer might be HP.

#47 Rudex

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 17:37

Alo translation google from spanish:

 

"The goal remains in the points. We come two Q3 followed, hopefully we manifest the third and then on Sunday the points. I think it may be a good weekend and this climatological uncertainty only can benefit us, because we have nothing to lose. We must seize the opportunity, "he said in statements to television.

Fernando has detailed what improvements has brought the Woking team to track Quebec. These focus on the area and turbo fuel.

"We have improved turbo that will make us recharge a little more batteries. That would be focused more in the race than in qualifying. Then we also have a gasoline that will give us about a tenth. That is the improvement of this Grand Prix. Everything is in the right direction and hopefully we can take advantage of this. "



#48 DerekWildstar

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 17:54

I'd be happy if between now and Spa, both FA and JB can make Q3 together.

As I said in a previous post, I think it makes sense to hold off on the ICE upgrades for now. They already have new fuel and new TC coming this weekend. I'd rather they don't over-complicate things until they understand the race behavior of these new variables. Then, once they have sufficient race data on fuel, lubricants, and ERS, bring the new ICE into play.

#49 CPR

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 17:55

"climatological uncertainty"...? That's not google's Spanish to English that's google's Spanish to Ron-speak!

http://www.autosport...-help-race-pace
 

"It's a new turbo that will allow us more harvesting from the engine, so that's always a good thing," said Alonso when asked by Autosport about the updates from Honda.

"It's not necessarily more power, but for a race situation it could help a little bit in terms of managing the battery, deploying longer on the straights.

"Not a big difference in qualifying, but hopefully for the race it will be an improvement.



http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/36494289
 

Button said that, in tandem with some specific qualities of the car, it should mean McLaren are in reasonable shape.

"This circuit has long straights, so it shouldn't suit us that well," he said, "but I think we're pretty efficient.

"We expected to be more competitive in Monaco and I think it's an efficiency thing. We don't have massive downforce, but we have efficient downforce, we also have very good braking, so here I don't think it will be too bad.

"We have more efficiency from the turbo which is great and new fuel from ExxonMobil, which is a good upgrade, about 0.1secs, which is a lot from fuel. So I'm happy with that."


Edited by CPR, 09 June 2016 - 17:59.


#50 nosecone

nosecone
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Posted 09 June 2016 - 18:28

dual DNF due to new turbo? :p

Hopefully. And then redesign the Turbo to improve it and call it reliability update. Just like Ferrari who bring a new Turbo that gives them more hp for no tokens at all