65 replies to this topic

[Lights]

I've only been watching F1 since the early 00's. I just saw a Facebook post from F1.com dedicated to the 1997 Hungarian GP. 

 

That year's Arrows-Yamaha in the hands of Hill usually qualified at least 1.5 seconds behind pole and pacewise was almost always (going to be) lapped.

 

How was it possible for the Arrows-Yamaha to be so competitive at only this race to allow Hill to overtake both Villeneuve and Schumacher and lead the former by 35 seconds at one point?

 

In the time I've been watching the sport I don't recall anything like it.

[Vitesse2]

Just for once, his Bridgestone tyres were superior to the Goodyears almost everyone else was using - Schumacher's were blistered after ten race laps. Only Arrows, Stewart, Minardi and Prost were on Bridgestones.

 

Damon had had an awful season - two collisions and mechanical DNFs - until Canada, which was his first finish. He then finished in France, scored a point at Silverstone and was 8th in Germany. So, while still unexpected, it was part of a slowly improving trend as Yamaha began to find a bit of reliability. After Hungary, while returning to midfield running, he only retired twice.

 

Essentially, it was a fortunate coincidence between the peak of Yamaha reliability and the best tyre compound Bridgestone were able to put together all year. But it was a magic weekend. Even if he did only finish second in the end!

[Michael Ferner]

Quite the opposite of the OP, I stopped watching F1 in the early noughts, and it saddens me to hear how the sport has become so formulaic. Back then, every race was essentially a new beginning, and while there were almost always dominant teams, surprises were more often the rule than an exception. I grew up with F1 in the seventies, when that was even more the case. Pity the young.

[Gene]

I was an engineer at Arrows and at that race.

If anybody's interested I'll take the time and write a narrative of just what happened?

[Charlieman]

Do children like presents for their birthdays?

[chunder27]

Gene

 

Do it chap, for those if us that are not working in the sort, any sort insider knowledge is always great to read, especially about such a freak race as this!

[Lights]

It's hard to say no to an offer like that. Would welcome it!

[Tim Murray]

Yes please Gene.

[Risil]

I was an engineer at Arrows and at that race.

If anybody's interested I'll take the time and write a narrative of just what happened?

 

Please!

[GMiranda]

Surely please

[Gene]

This about 1 typed page. so I hope I can paste it all in!

Please feel free If anyone has something to add.

 

That year’s Arrows A18, designed by Frank Dernie, was competent car with great handling. One weakness in the chassis was the front lower rear A-arm mount which kept detaching from the bulkhead if the car even lightly bumped a guard rail or anything else immovable. The major weakness was the Yamaha motor, which was at least 75hp down on power. So despite the good handling, at the majority of the races we had one hand tied behind out team back. As I’m sure all of you know, the Hungaroring isn’t about power, it’s all about handling and getting the power to the ground. Damon Hill was an extremely smooth driver, so the great handling combined with a driver who can take advantage of all the power available, added up to giving us an advantage and a 3^rd on the grid. When the lights when out Damon stormed off and by around the 6^th lap into the lead, pretty much driving away.

 

Unfortunately from the start, the lads in the data room were jumping up and down telling everybody the car was loosing hydraulic pressure and probably wouldn’t finish! Tom Wakenshaw was quietly informed of the situation and suggested he shouldn’t be too enthusiastic when the press interviewed him about our sudden good fortune. When the car finally ran out of hydraulic fluid the throttle and gear box systems stopped operating, staying in the positions where they were when the pressure stopped. This actually was the best of a bad situation because the throttle stopped at about 1/3 open and in 3^rd gear. So while Damon wasn’t able to hold on to the lead and Villeneuve drove past him, he was able to keep going enough to finish 2^nd.

 

Racing teams are leadership/management nightmares. Nobody gets to that level of competition by being a shrinking violet. Every member of a team is just as competitive off as they are on or at the track. The successful, winning teams have a good strong leadership/management, who keep everybody focused that the enemy is the other teams, not the guy sitting next to you! With the exception of John (Boy) Walton, leadership at Arrows was nonexistent, which resulted in the team turning into a “shark pool”. Team environment was primarily about team politics, getting ahead, adding to your power or just simply your own survival, over the real function of building and racing a F1 car. Arrows loss at Hungaroring was the team paying the price for this environment. When the cars returned to Leifield, the transmission guys confirmed the source of the hydraulic fluid leak was from a 50p washer that should have been replaced, but wasn’t, as part of normal maintenance. The lack of defined procedures, which is part of strong leadership, added to the preoccupation with team politics resulted in the basics not being completed.

 

To say Walkenshaw was livid and looking to take heads is an underestimate. (kind of like a few episodes of The Tudors!). Arrows had shot TWR in the foot, missing an opportunity to validate its place and prestige within F1. The engineers from Yamaha, who already felt responsible for our lack of results and knew this was their last year in F1, were devastated to miss a chance of finally winning one. While for the most part all of us felt like we’d taken a punch in the gut, there were several who saw it as opportunity and used it as another weapon in the team political wars.

 

While I survived the Arrows GP wars, my enthusiasm for F1 did not. This is just one story of my time at Arrows, there are lots more along the same theme. Like why we didn’t even make it past the pre grid lap at Australia and the race team meeting John Walton held over the radios in the middle of the pit lane. I’m no longer in motor racing and now work in a totally different area. So I’m writing this without any fear of retaliation. If your wondering what I mean, ask the guys who suddenly found themselves surrounded by fire in the middle of a pit stop!

 

BTW the race has a Wiki page if you’d like a few more facts: https://en.wikipedia...rian_Grand_Prix

[Sharman]

This about 1 typed page. so I hope I can paste it all in!

Please feel free If anyone has something to add.

 

That year’s Arrows A18, designed by Frank Dernie, was competent car with great handling. One weakness in the chassis was the front lower rear A-arm mount which kept detaching from the bulkhead if the car even lightly bumped a guard rail or anything else immovable. The major weakness was the Yamaha motor, which was at least 75hp down on power. So despite the good handling, at the majority of the races we had one hand tied behind out team back. As I’m sure all of you know, the Hungaroring isn’t about power, it’s all about handling and getting the power to the ground. Damon Hill was an extremely smooth driver, so the great handling combined with a driver who can take advantage of all the power available, added up to giving us an advantage and a 3^rd on the grid. When the lights when out Damon stormed off and by around the 6^th lap into the lead, pretty much driving away.

 

Unfortunately from the start, the lads in the data room were jumping up and down telling everybody the car was loosing hydraulic pressure and probably wouldn’t finish! Tom Wakenshaw was quietly informed of the situation and suggested he shouldn’t be too enthusiastic when the press interviewed him about our sudden good fortune. When the car finally ran out of hydraulic fluid the throttle and gear box systems stopped operating, staying in the positions where they were when the pressure stopped. This actually was the best of a bad situation because the throttle stopped at about 1/3 open and in 3^rd gear. So while Damon wasn’t able to hold on to the lead and Villeneuve drove past him, he was able to keep going enough to finish 2^nd.

 

Racing teams are leadership/management nightmares. Nobody gets to that level of competition by being a shrinking violet. Every member of a team is just as competitive off as they are on or at the track. The successful, winning teams have a good strong leadership/management, who keep everybody focused that the enemy is the other teams, not the guy sitting next to you! With the exception of John (Boy) Walton, leadership at Arrows was nonexistent, which resulted in the team turning into a “shark pool”. Team environment was primarily about team politics, getting ahead, adding to your power or just simply your own survival, over the real function of building and racing a F1 car. Arrows loss at Hungaroring was the team paying the price for this environment. When the cars returned to Leifield, the transmission guys confirmed the source of the hydraulic fluid leak was from a 50p washer that should have been replaced, but wasn’t, as part of normal maintenance. The lack of defined procedures, which is part of strong leadership, added to the preoccupation with team politics resulted in the basics not being completed.

 

To say Walkenshaw was livid and looking to take heads is an underestimate. (kind of like a few episodes of The Tudors!). Arrows had shot TWR in the foot, missing an opportunity to validate its place and prestige within F1. The engineers from Yamaha, who already felt responsible for our lack of results and knew this was their last year in F1, were devastated to miss a chance of finally winning one. While for the most part all of us felt like we’d taken a punch in the gut, there were several who saw it as opportunity and used it as another weapon in the team political wars.

 

While I survived the Arrows GP wars, my enthusiasm for F1 did not. This is just one story of my time at Arrows, there are lots more along the same theme. Like why we didn’t even make it past the pre grid lap at Australia and the race team meeting John Walton held over the radios in the middle of the pit lane. I’m no longer in motor racing and now work in a totally different area. So I’m writing this without any fear of retaliation. If your wondering what I mean, ask the guys who suddenly found themselves surrounded by fire in the middle of a pit stop!

 

BTW the race has a Wiki page if you’d like a few more facts: https://en.wikipedia...rian_Grand_Prix

Thank you Gene

[D-Type]

Many thanks Gene.

[Lights]

Thanks Gene! 

[Bloggsworth]

I've only been watching F1 since the early 00's. I just saw a Facebook post from F1.com dedicated to the 1997 Hungarian GP. 
 
That year's Arrows-Yamaha in the hands of Hill usually qualified at least 1.5 seconds behind pole and pacewise was almost always (going to be) lapped.

No it didn't, IIRC, in Spain it qualified within a few hundredths of a second of pole.

[scheivlak]

No it didn't, IIRC, in Spain it qualified within a few hundredths of a second of pole.

In Spain, but not at the Spanish GP   but at the European GP months later.

 

Jerez is of course another circuit where power was less important than at some other tracks.

[Zippel]

I can't recall exactly where I read it (might have been Through The Eyes Of Damon Hill) but Hill has mentioned in the past how he and John Barnard worked out a perfect set-up for the race.

Edited by Zippel, 23 July 2016 - 22:27.

[f1steveuk]

I was doing the host braodcast graphics for FOM at that race, and I recall very well the atmosphere at the Arrows end of the pitlane during de-rig/pack up. I'd actually picked Damon in the FOM broadcast village sweep, much to some very surprised faces. I was gutted when that 30p washer failed, it pales in comparision to the poor Arrows boys, who I got on with quite well (another story, where in Germany we all stayed in a holiday park. When I checked in as Mr Holter, reception sent me to thee Arrows chalets, becaause apparently, they also had a Mr Holter. I had beer with me!!!)

 

I then had to do the script for the end of year review script, and it wasn't possible to use any of the interview with Tom Walkinshaw about that race, for very obvious reasons, but someone told me he had that washer, in a frame......................

[Bloggsworth]

In Spain, but not at the Spanish GP   but at the European GP months later.
 
Jerez is of course another circuit where power was less important than at some other tracks.

That's what I said "In Spain..."

[chunder27]

I have never had much of a good impression of Walkinshaw's attitude to his employees even from when he raced.

 

Always thought of him as something of an ogre, a real nasty piece of work. Which I am sure is largely wrong, but sadly the impression one got.

And while I am sure that attitude gets results and some people thrive in it, am also sure an atmosphere of fear and pervading worry about your performance is not a positive place to work.

 

Some team bosses I am sure are like behind closed doors, but Walkinshaw seemed unable to hide it, and I can imagine working for him to be a fairly woeful experience, as if that is what he might be like in public, imagine what he is like behind the closed door!

 

Successful no doubt at some points, but fairly torrid!!

[Dave Ware]

Thank you, Gene.  Awesome stuff.  Very much appreciated. 

[Vitesse2]

Original press reports.

 

Sunday Times, Aug 11th 1997:

 

 

The Times Aug 12th:

 

 

The Times Aug 13th:

 

 

 

Jordan has been erroneously linked with Hill ...

Oops!

[DogEarred]

I have never had much of a good impression of Walkinshaw's attitude to his employees even from when he raced.

 

Always thought of him as something of an ogre, a real nasty piece of work. Which I am sure is largely wrong, but sadly the impression one got.

And while I am sure that attitude gets results and some people thrive in it, am also sure an atmosphere of fear and pervading worry about your performance is not a positive place to work.

 

Some team bosses I am sure are like behind closed doors, but Walkinshaw seemed unable to hide it, and I can imagine working for him to be a fairly woeful experience, as if that is what he might be like in public, imagine what he is like behind the closed door!

 

Successful no doubt at some points, but fairly torrid!!

 

You're not wrong.

[John Ginger]

I have never had much of a good impression of Walkinshaw's attitude to his employees even from when he raced.

 

 

 

And yet on the other hand, I know two ex-employees who both speak highly of him as a boss

[Gary C]

I was at that race, doing slo-mo TV replays for FOM. Was absolutely gutted when Damon suddenly slowed and was overtaken by Villeneuve. As a Damon fan I took a huge ribbing from my workmates for it!  Gene, on the plane home that evening I sat next to one of your gearbox guys (Glynn...he was an old hand who was normally on the test team at that point but had been drafted into  the race team for a few races, I struck up a friendship with him and saw him at a few more races that year...including Spa from memory. He even put me in contact with Peter Kerr, who I later interviewed ).

[Obster]

I remember this like yesterday, in my bedroom cheering Damon on all the way. Hated to see him falter, but at least it was former teammate Villeneuve that was the one to pass.

When something like this finish happens-and it does over here in the States in NASCAR all the time-I say that Villeneuve "finished first". Certainly different than "winning", for sure!

[Lee Nicolle]

I have never had much of a good impression of Walkinshaw's attitude to his employees even from when he raced.

 

Always thought of him as something of an ogre, a real nasty piece of work. Which I am sure is largely wrong, but sadly the impression one got.

And while I am sure that attitude gets results and some people thrive in it, am also sure an atmosphere of fear and pervading worry about your performance is not a positive place to work.

 

Some team bosses I am sure are like behind closed doors, but Walkinshaw seemed unable to hide it, and I can imagine working for him to be a fairly woeful experience, as if that is what he might be like in public, imagine what he is like behind the closed door!

 

Successful no doubt at some points, but fairly torrid!!

There is a lot of people with a problem with the Walkinshaws. Though Tom was a fairly tough competitor

[FLB]

I once asked one of his ex-drivers what his opinion of Walkinshaw was.

 

I'm not quite sure I can write (publish) it here.

[ensign14]

You can't defame the dead.

[George Costanza]

I once asked one of his ex-drivers what his opinion of Walkinshaw was.

I'm not quite sure I can write (publish) it here.

I wonder what Tom thought of Michael Schumacher or Flavio.

[PlatenGlass]

Another factor in the race was the temperature. I remember Eddie Irvine saying that Ferrari were all set for a 1-2 (probably an exaggeration - Irvine coming second) but then the track temperature just went up more than expected before the race. Most of the goodyear runners were on the soft tyres. Frentzen was on the hards and was a likely winner with or without Hill's problem, but he retired relatively early on.

[Gabrci]

Thanks so much Gene, enormously interesting read! 

[GMiranda]

I remember this race as if it was yesterday.... I was a great fan of Hill (one of my first racing memories is precisely Damon being punted off by Schumacher at Adelaide) and, as I do since 1994, I was watching the G.P., but on the same day the Portuguese Cycling Tour passed right through my street and as Hill had such an advance I left only to see the cyclists pass... when I returned, Villeneuve was on his consecration lap as a winner, what a shock

[E1pix]

Thanks from me as well, Gene.

Even an inside story is nothing without candor, so I really appreciate yours.

[RCH]

Only just caught up with this topic. In those days I used to have trade stands at various historic race meetings or classic car shows. That particular weekend I was at the NEC, can't remember the event but the Sunday wasn't very busy. A nearby stall had a portable TV. Suddenly the word went around, "Damon's leading". I've never seen anything like it at such an event. A crowd gathered around that stand but everyone in that hall seemed to be gripped by it, every visitor to our stand was asking how he was getting on or bringing the latest news. The atmosphere was truly electric and then, just as suddenly, everything fell flat, the event returned to the rather dull show it had been. I believe it shows the esteem he was held in by the general public, if not necessarily by the racing "in crowd".

[kayemod]

Only just caught up with this topic. In those days I used to have trade stands at various historic race meetings or classic car shows. That particular weekend I was at the NEC, can't remember the event but the Sunday wasn't very busy. A nearby stall had a portable TV. Suddenly the word went around, "Damon's leading". I've never seen anything like it at such an event. A crowd gathered around that stand but everyone in that hall seemed to be gripped by it, every visitor to our stand was asking how he was getting on or bringing the latest news. The atmosphere was truly electric and then, just as suddenly, everything fell flat, the event returned to the rather dull show it had been. I believe it shows the esteem he was held in by the general public, if not necessarily by the racing "in crowd".

 

That reminds me of the time I was booking into a Devon hotel. I was waiting patiently at reception, and two employees behind the counter were watching the 99 race from the Nürburgring. "What's happening?" I asked them.

 

"It's a rubbish race" one of them replied, turning to attend to me. "Herbert's leading, but there's a Prost, a Prost! second and a Minardi (he rolled his eyes), in fourth!"

 

We chatted for a while about racing in general, but he admitted he'd lost interest when Damon had retired at the start, without completing a lap.

 

I think Damon had much in common with Nico Rosberg today, a brilliant driver, unbeatable on his day, but unfairly underestimated by far too many people. I daren't post this on Racing Comments, but if Nico wins WDC this year it will be thoroughly deserved, the best man won. Maybe he'd rank higher in the public perception if he wore big ear rings, partied a lot, and disfigured his body with hideous tattoos...

[chunder27]

Why would anyone dare to post anything like that!  Youa re not saying anything remotely bad or having a go at anyone, do it and watch the reaction, you are not hurting anyone! I think a lot of fans have gone off Lewis in recent years, I know I have. But that is his call, it's his life, he can do what he wants. He likes to put across a ragged image, but in reality is as clean cut and boyish as he ever was in temperament and attitude to racing. Villeneuve used to be a bit similar but backed it up by being a bell end off track most of the time too!

 

Damon was a deserved world champion, he should have won in 1994 if it were not for a cheating team he was up against and a driver who would stop at nothing, including driving into people with a damaged car to win.

 

Hill made his mistakes later on at Silverstone and Monza and a few other places but on his day he was super quick, ruthless and calculating, those drives at Suzuka rank among any good drives by any world champion. He deserved a title every bit as much as Rosberg does this year.

[Vitesse2]

 

I think Damon had much in common with Nico Rosberg today, a brilliant driver, unbeatable on his day, but unfairly underestimated by far too many people. I daren't post this on Racing Comments, but if Nico wins WDC this year it will be thoroughly deserved, the best man won...

With you on Damon and I would agree that Nico's improved this year, but he's been the one without the mechanical gremlins. I give no credence to the various conspiracy theories, but if Rosberg wins the WDC it will have more than a little to do with the fact that his engines haven't been going bang in the biggest possible way. A bit like the introduction of the DFV - in nine races Jimmy had four wins and just three retirements while Graham only finished twice - although his problems did tend to be transmission or gearbox related.

[kayemod]

 

Damon was a deserved world champion, he should have won in 1994 if it were not for a cheating team he was up against and a driver who would stop at nothing, including driving into people with a damaged car to win.

 

Hill made his mistakes later on at Silverstone and Monza and a few other places but on his day he was super quick, ruthless and calculating, those drives at Suzuka rank among any good drives by any world champion. He deserved a title every bit as much as Rosberg does this year.

 

Well, I thought that was exactly what I said, try reading my post again. My attitude to Hamilton is one of equal quantities of admiration and bemusement, he's had far more than his fair share of bellendedness in recent months..

[Ross Stonefeld]

Bridgestone Bridgestone Bridgestone. They had some very good tires that year at certain tracks and in certain conditions. Stewart, Prost, and Arrows all had competitive runs. 

[E1pix]

Some of y'all forget how good you have it, regardless of style Lewis Hamilton is a national treasure!

[retriever]

Some of y'all forget how good you have it, regardless of style Lewis Hamilton is a national treasure!

 

Er, no!  That is going too far. National treasures are a bit like heroes - they are everywhere. Our Queen is a national treasure and so is Sir David Attenborough.

[kayemod]

Er, no!  That is going too far. National treasures are a bit like heroes - they are everywhere. Our Queen is a national treasure and so is Sir David Attenborough.

 

From the point of view of this forum, surely only Sir Stirling really qualifies for that position?

[retriever]

From the point of view of this forum, surely only Sir Stirling really qualifies for that position?

 

 

Agreed, however we have already crossed the line by discussing Lew Hamilton!

[Collombin]

Er, no! That is going too far. National treasures are a bit like heroes - they are everywhere

Does that include Croydon?

[retriever]

Does that include Croydon?

 

Only if you include Balham - Gateway to the South, which is a little to the north east

[E1pix]

Even moulds get old.

[chunder27]

Sorry never been a Moss fan and never will be. fatherly influence, he couldn't stand him lol!
 
Tony Brooks on the other hand, he met him queuing up at the airport, lovely bloke!

[Glengavel]

With you on Damon and I would agree that Nico's improved this year, but he's been the one without the mechanical gremlins. I give no credence to the various conspiracy theories, but if Rosberg wins the WDC it will have more than a little to do with the fact that his engines haven't been going bang in the biggest possible way. A bit like the introduction of the DFV - in nine races Jimmy had four wins and just three retirements while Graham only finished twice - although his problems did tend to be transmission or gearbox related.

 

Clark's better mechanical sympathy?

[BRG]

Sorry never been a Moss fan and never will be. 

I'm not really a Moss fan either, although I respect his record.  But irrespective of that, it is true to say that he is the motor racing National Treasure of the UK.  Everyone knows his name, he epitomises motor racing for the large majority who know nothing much about the sport.  Others have their moment in the limelight - Hill Sr, Hunt, Stewart, Mansell, Hill Jr and now Hamilton but it is fleeting, whereas Moss just goes on forever.  Perhaps being unsuccessful in the WC endears him more to the British mentality of admiring the plucky loser than the all conquering hero type?

 

As for Damon, fighting the 'wicked Hun' of course helped him gain a lot of British supporters, just as 'Our Nige' was seen as a bit of a hero for taking on the apparently omnipotent Senna.