127 replies to this topic

[DanInSyd]

I've been reading up on Alesi recently, as he started his career a bit before I started following the sport around 1995.

I know that fate could have had a hand in helping him to a WC if he would have gone to Williams instead of backing out and going to Ferrari in 1991, just down to the sheer dominance of the Williams over the next few years, and the dire times for Ferrari, but was Alesi really good enough to fight for, and win a WC. There is no denying he had speed, at least in the earlier part of his career, but from what I have found he was very much an all or nothing driver, who maybe drove with the heart more than the head (the opposite to Berger I feel).

Would he have been able to sustain a full championship charge, if he had been at Williams in the early 90's, or at Benetton a bit earlier in 94/95, or was he just another 'fast' driver, who would have been out slogged by the other drivers of the time?

Thanks, Dan

Edited by DanInSyd, 12 December 2016 - 07:48.

[Gabrci]

Clear no I think. But I really liked him, he had so much passion.

[chunder27]

I think if he had been schooled by a Head or Dennis he might have had the rough edges beaten out of him.

 

He had a certain style and was a bit temperamental, but you could never doubt his speed.

 

But a guy to lead a team, I don't think so, he was never dominant over Gerhard and he was second rate in comparison to Senna though dominated Alboreto.

 

So for me Jean would have been more of a Rubens and Frentzen than a Hill or Villeneuve, lacked the killer instinct.

[jcbc3]

Well, he did win the F3000 title, so he could sustain a challenge.

The question is who he would have been paired with at Williams, and if this driver would have gotten the better of him anyway.

[bill p]

DaninSyd

You may find the "Lunch with Jean Alesi" in this month's Motor Sport interesting

Bill P

[JtP2]

A driver who would rather look heroic than win.

[alansart]

I always liked Alesi but he tended to drive with his heart rather than his head. Always good to watch and blindingly fast on his day but he made too many errors to be a real Championship contender. For example. I seem to remember he ran out of fuel at Jordan when he ignored his time to pit signals.

[Colbul1]

According to the Ross Brawn book, the 1996 Benetton was as good as the 1995 Benetton.  Schumacher won the title and Herbert 2 races with the 1995 car, Alesi rarely made the podium with an equally good car the following year.

[7MGTEsup]

I always liked Alesi but he tended to drive with his heart rather than his head. Always good to watch and blindingly fast on his day but he made too many errors to be a real Championship contender. For example. I seem to remember he ran out of fuel at Jordan when he ignored his time to pit signals.

 

I think that was at Benetton in 1997, Flavio was not impressed.

[piket]

I've been reading up on Alesi recently, as he started his career a bit before I started following the sport around 1995.

I know that fate could have had a hand in helping him to a WC if he would have gone to Williams instead of backing out and going to Ferrari in 1991, just down to the sheer dominance of the Williams over the next few years, and the dire times for Ferrari, but was Alesi really good enough to fight for, and win a WC. There is no denying he had speed, at least in the earlier part of his career, but from what I have found he was very much an all or nothing driver, who maybe drove with the heart more than the head (the opposite to Berger I feel).

Would he have been able to sustain a full championship charge, if he had been at Williams in the early 90's, or at Benetton a bit earlier in 94/95, or was he just another 'fast' driver, who would have been out slogged by the other drivers of the time?

Thanks, Dan

Alesi's style and flair resulted in a lot of his fans.

Actually there was really no difference in styles between Berger and him. Both were incomplete drivers similarly disinterested about car development. A "killer" option for Ferrari those years.

One detail always points to a driver who's going to have a tough time staying competitive over the years, let alone, win a championship.

You probably heard stories about Berger and Alesi simply nodding passively to their engineers through testing, not really interested in improving the car. You can read the same about a previous and very similarly ranked Ferrari driver , that is in my opinion; Alboreto.

It's ok to have one such driver, but two of them, common!!

So, there's one good thing about Alesi. I don't think he cost Ferrari as much money as that "money pit" also known as Gerhard Berger. What a pair of joke®s.

Just a small side note to today's Ferrari.They made a similar decision. They have a pair of drivers with probably most narrow operating window compared to other top drivers.

[Tim Murray]

According to the Ross Brawn book, the 1996 Benetton was as good as the 1995 Benetton.  Schumacher won the title and Herbert 2 races with the 1995 car, Alesi rarely made the podium with an equally good car the following year.

But how good was the 1996 Benetton compared to the 1996 Williams? I thought Alesi drove well and consistently in 1996, with four second places, four thirds and two fourths. He was denied the win at Monaco when his suspension broke, and at Monza by superior Ferrari strategy. I wonder how well Schumacher would have performed in the 1996 Benetton.

[Ibsey]

To answer the question posed in the opening post Alesi was perhaps too wild to win a WDC in his early years as was Jody Schketer apparently. However from 1998 onwards I thought Alesi matured greatly. So much so that in 2001 had Jean not been taken out by Kimi at Suzuka Alesi would have been the 1st driver to be classified of a finisher every single race since circa 1966.

In the years from 1998 onwards reliability issues robbed Jean of some truly outstanding results hence why they are forgotten (i.e. Monaco 2000, Spa 2000, Silverstone 1998, Monaco 1998 to name a few). Perhaps by that stage Alesi had lost a tenth or two but still wonder if the 1998 -2001 version of Alesi could have won a WDC had he been given a reliable top car?

Not saying he was better that M Schumi or Hakkinen but I personally think he was defiantly in the top 5 best drivers of 1998/1999 but never had the equipment to prove it. I know people will look at the final points table of 1999 and think what the hell am I smoking as Alesi couldn’t even beat Diniz??? Here’s why I think Alesi was top 5 material in 1999:

 

1. His stunning charge through the field in Brazil (matching the leader's pace), before his gearbox let him down.

2. Scored points in San Marino, despite being on the (unconventional) three stop strategy. Therefore Jean had to pass & repass many cars during the race, on a track not known for overtaking!!!

3. Him setting a brilliant qualifying lap in Spain 1999 early on in the session, which the wasn't bettered by any of the front runners until either their 3rd or 4th attempt. He qualifed 5th & was running 5th or 6th in the race until his electrics packed up.

4. Would have finished 2nd had he not been taken out on the 1st corner. His car was set-up perfectly for the race..on a track he had previously won at...a rare thing indeed!!!

5. France 1999. Only Alesi & Kubica (to my knowledge) have ever qualified a Sauber on the front row. When Alesi did it (once during each year he drove for them), The Sauber was no where near as competitive as Kubica's Sauber & Alesi didn't have the luxury of a works BMW engine!!!

 

6. His stunning charge through the field in Austria 1999 (just ahead of a recovering Hakkinen & Hakkinen could not pass Alesi)

7. Him overtaking two cars in one corner (les coombes) during the middle of a dry race...something I have never seen another driver even attempt, let alond pull off since.

8. European GP, Alesi pitted on the right lap for wets tyres, but as he left the pits his transmission packed up (a bit like Frentzen). Before Alesi retired he was ahead of all the podium finishers (Herbert, Trulli & Barrichello).

9. His excellent performance in the Japanese GP to claim 6th.

BTW, Alesi got so fed up with the unreliability of the Sauber constantly costing him good results, following his retirement in Hungary 1999 he actual declared on F1- ITV that he would be moving to Prost for 2000, before even informing the Sauber team.

 

In response to the question on how good was the 1996 Benetton compared to the 1996 Williams? In my mind the 1996 Williams was between 3ths to 1 second faster than the B196 (depending on track). And as a massive Alesi fan I would be the 1st to admit that Jean didn’t maximise the B196. This is because the B196 was very much an evolution of the B195. So in other words it was still very much set up for M Schumi style of driving.

 

I remember in the June 1999 edition of F1 Racing magazine there was an interview with Jean about his Benetton years and Jean said the Benetton engineers were trying to get Jean to drive like M Schumi used to. However Jean said it was simply too late in his career to change his driving style completely. So I do think M Schumi would have performed much better in the B196 had he stayed. But I'm not sure how many other drivers would have been successful in that B196 given Herbert, Berger, Verstappen & Lehto all struggled in those mid 1990's Benettons.

 

Also I don’t think of Jean enjoyed his time with Flavio, and in that afore mentioned interview Jean said he was close to quitting at the end of 1997, and it was Berger who convinced him to go to Sauber for 1998. So Jean being unhappy is another reason why he underperformed in his Benetton years IMO.

Edited by Ibsey, 13 December 2016 - 10:17.

[JtP2]

When you consider the 5 Bennetton vs the 95 Ferrari, they then swap drivers and to all intents and purposes the drivers line up on the same place on the grid, just in different cars. Now I await the micronutia of all the results proving I am wrong. Alesi on the wrong strategy at Monza, MS simply followed him till his stop and went for it on his in lap. We will now hear about Alesi being baulked out of the pits, he lost under a second and after the stop was more than that down. I know, cause I put the stop watch on it on the tape.

As for the Australia running out of fuel, I believe Flav refused to pay him for the race.

Edited by JtP2, 12 December 2016 - 17:24.

[BittenHeroes]

I liked Jean very much for his flair and style of entertaining driving.

He was an incomplete driver, but a legend of the sport for sure.

I think he did great things in the 2001 Prost.

[PlatenGlass]

It's an interesting one. It partly depends on his team-mate. Had he been up against Mansell in 1992 I don't think he would have been favourite, but against Hill in 1996 then for me it's a yes. He was also not the liability some have made him out to be over the years. There was the time he didn't pit and ran out of fuel but that was one race, mysterious though it was.

[Uporthe]

heard he's on some kind of medications now.... sometimes legends need help either.. like Schumacher....

 

in response to the questioner: meds like valium, but that's not an official information

Edited by Uporthe, 08 February 2017 - 20:06.

[BittenHeroes]

heard he's on some kind of medications now.... sometimes legends need help either.. like Schumacher....

Medications for what condition(s)?

[JtP2]

It's an interesting one. It partly depends on his team-mate. Had he been up against Mansell in 1992 I don't think he would have been favourite, but against Hill in 1996 then for me it's a yes. He was also not the liability some have made him out to be over the years. There was the time he didn't pit and ran out of fuel but that was one race, mysterious though it was.

After his departure to Ferrari without ever sitting in a Williams with his comments at the time, there was absolutely no chance of him ever getting an offer of a Williams drive again. Just watched the 97 Australian GP online and if you wonder if racing was better than now, the answer is yes. Unfortunately we didn't get a post race interview with Jean.

[JtP2]

Medications for what condition(s)?

Petroleum jelly capsules?

[DanInSyd]

DaninSyd

You may find the "Lunch with Jean Alesi" in this month's Motor Sport interesting

Bill P

 

Thanks Bill P, i'll make sure I take a look!

 

It's an interesting one. It partly depends on his team-mate. Had he been up against Mansell in 1992 I don't think he would have been favourite, but against Hill in 1996 then for me it's a yes. He was also not the liability some have made him out to be over the years. There was the time he didn't pit and ran out of fuel but that was one race, mysterious though it was.

 

This is maybe one of the question mark that hangs over him.  He could have gone to Williams two seasons ahead of Damon, which would have given him a number two seat to Mansell, Prost and then Senna (he may have had enough of playing second fiddle by then anyway, and moved on), but probably given him the team lead against Hill after Imola 94. By that time he would have felt very comfortable in the team, and as mentioned previously, with Patrick Head whipping him in to shape, he may have been a bit more disciplined (although this didn't work necessarily with Jacques or Juan-Pablo).  Maybe he would have lost a touch of the passion that we all loved though.

 

Also, Ibsey, your comment about him being denied (by Kimi) a chance of finishing every race is an interesting one.  In one hand it shows that he was consistent, and could 'bring the car home', but on the other you tend to think of daring moves, and do or die passes being needed for a WDC.   Two things which don't tend to go together, especially with some of the great moves that people have mentioned Alesi pulling over his career, its actually a stat that i'm surprised with.

 

Thanks, Dan

[john aston]

I am not really too fussed about WDC (as it now seems we have to term it , he said irascibly ) but Alesi was a bloody hero. Always great to watch, blindingly quick on his day and hugely likeable. I have one special memory of him , which I have mentioned on here before. Silverstone ,wet practice and all the drivers , poor delicate flowers that they are, sat in the pits doing nothing whilst the paying public stood in the rain wondering why the hell we 'd taken a day off work and spent a fortune to watch nothing .

 

Sound of Ferrari leaving pits - we brightened up .It was Alesi , of course and he ragged the arse off his car simply because he could - and apparently he was the only driver who understood who it was who actually  paid his wages .

[chunder27]

Marlboro I imagine!!!

[jcbc3]

No Jean Alesi thread is complete without.....The Mother of all jump starts:

[john aston]

Marlboro I imagine!!!

And who bought the fags ? My brand of choice back in the day ..

[Ibsey]

 

Also, Ibsey, your comment about him being denied (by Kimi) a chance of finishing every race is an interesting one.  In one hand it shows that he was consistent, and could 'bring the car home', but on the other you tend to think of daring moves, and do or die passes being needed for a WDC.   Two things which don't tend to go together, especially with some of the great moves that people have mentioned Alesi pulling over his career, its actually a stat that i'm surprised with.

 

 

 

Just to avoid any misunderstanding. Alesi didn't finish every race in 2001 prior to Suzuka but he was classified as a finisher for every single race before Japan. As far as I am aware the only expection was this do or die move Alesi was trying at the end of the race;

 

 

 

Jean adding consistency to his game in his latter years is why I think he he would have been capable of winning a WDC had he been in say Hill's position in 1996 or Mansell's position in 1992. Not denying he was still capable of the odd silly incident from 1998 - 2001 and I don't think he completely lost his ability to pull off WDC winning overtaking moves in aquiring that consistency. Case in point USA 2001 - haven't watched this race for a while, but I have a feeling that Jean pulled off a few overtakes there. So in short Jean was better able to tame his passion when the circumstances required it in his later years.  

 

In regards to Jean's finishing stats, would be interested to know how many races Jean failed to finish due to HIS own mistake between 1998 and 2000. I'm guessing that might be another surprising stat. When I get a chance I might just look that up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ibsey, 13 December 2016 - 10:50.

[alansart]

Ales did amazing things with the Tyrrell!

[BRG]

Had he been up against Mansell in 1992 I don't think he would have been favourite, but against Hill in 1996 then for me it's a yes. 

 

As is usual on this forum, you are massively underestimating Hill and, frankly, overestimating Alesi.  By 1996, Hill was already head and shoulders better than Alesi.  

[nexfast]

The race that made me an Alesi fan, the unforgettable duel with Senna in the streets of Phoenix in 1990:

 

[chunder27]

I think Jean was at his beat with Tyrrel in 89 and 90, he was raw, super fast and aggressive.

 

Some of his drives in that blue and white Tyrrell were staggering and probably the last great Tyrrell driver. He was often up there with the V10/12 cars in his little Cossie powered 020.

 

Tyres helped too that year, but I do feel he was driving over the limit to get there.

 

Since then he showed flashes of that form but often tinged with mistakes and silliness. Though now and then you would see the old Jean.

 

He should have won 5 or 6 races, but sadly only one. Does that mean he was better than a Brundle or similar who never won races, probably.

[lustigson]

Every time the subject of Jean Alesi in a Williams comes up, and people say that he at least would have had a decent chance at a WDC in 1992-1996, I tend to think of the odds of him being in that Williams-Renault at Imola in 1994. He might be thankful for having had such a long career, at least a GP victory, and having driven for Ferrari for so long.

[PayasYouRace]

It actually surprised me to learn that he outscored Berger every year they were team mates except for 1994. Jean could bring home points.

I think he could have done it if he'd been at Williams at the right time.

[Ibsey]

 

It actually surprised me to learn that he outscored Berger every year they were team mates except for 1994. Jean could bring home points.

I think he could have done it if he'd been at Williams at the right time.

 

Another interesting stat is that Alesi outqualified Berger in 15 out of 16 races in 1996, which was the same number of times M Schumi outqualified Irvine that year.

Regarding the Imola 1994 comment. Whilst Alesi could have been in that Williams at Imola in 1994 I think its worth stating that Hill, who drove the other FW16 believes Senna’s accident was NOT down to a car failure. Hill is the only other person who knew how unstable the FW16 was over certain bumps at Tamberullo.

Edited by Ibsey, 14 December 2016 - 14:01.

[JtP2]

Every time the subject of Jean Alesi in a Williams comes up, and people say that he at least would have had a decent chance at a WDC in 1992-1996, I tend to think of the odds of him being in that Williams-Renault at Imola in 1994. He might be thankful for having had such a long career, at least a GP victory, and having driven for Ferrari for so long.

After the Alesi/Williams /Ferrari saga and Jean's comments at the time, there was about as much chance of Alesi in a Williams as holy water in the orange lodge.

[Ibsey]

After the Alesi/Williams /Ferrari saga and Jean's comments at the time, there was about as much chance of Alesi in a Williams as holy water in the orange lodge.

I disagree Frank Williams always had a soft spot for Jean. Nigel Roebuck wrote an article on Alesi and said the following;

"Just before Christmas one year, I was in Williams’s office, when someone came in with a case of champagne. “It’s from Jean!” Frank exclaimed, delightedly. “Isn’t that something? The first present I’ve ever been given by a racing driver – and he doesn’t even drive for me. Lovely bloke – and a remarkable driver. He’ll be here eventually…”

It never happened, though."

http://www.motorspor...reciation-alesi


Also it was reported in F1 news magazine in mid 1995 that Bernie was trying to get JV to join Ferrari with the number 27 for the marketing potential. So had that happened, Jean was the favourite to that the 1996 Williams seat. Renualt wanted a french driver in either Williams or Benetton.

Here is more extracts from that Nigel Roebuck article;

"To my mind, Alesi was always among the very fastest drivers, but often overlooked was that, given a half-reliable car, he was also among the best finishers in the business. In two years with Benetton he made the podium 13 times.

There followed a couple of seasons with Sauber, a team he enjoyed, but not one capable of doing him justice. Twice though – at the A1-Ring in 1998, and Magny-Cours in ’99 – Jean started from the front row, on each occasion a treacherous track surface allowing his other-worldly car control to compensate for middling equipment.

Little needs to be said about his time with Prost. Alesi went there in a positive frame of mind, for Alain was not only a man he revered, but also his close friend. The two of them talked of forging a really strong French team, even envisaging a role for Jean after his retirement as a driver. As it was, though, everything went wrong, not least because Prost’s sponsors deserted him. Perhaps it’s true that one should never work with friends.

I must confess I found it extraordinary that the top teams continued to pass Jean by. Yes, he could be temperamental, and he tended to say what he thought – but, in the end, even in the 21st century do you hire a driver for his PR blandness or his speed?

Gerhard Berger, Alesi’s long-time team-mate at Ferrari and Benetton, remained a fan to the end of Jean’s F1 career. “For me, Jean was very underestimated. I thought he was really a very good racing driver. He didn’t make many mistakes in a race, he had unbelievable car control, he had speed, he had experience, he was quick in the rain – and he was a very good finisher.

“Jean’s problem was always that he had an image of being uncontrollable, but I didn’t think that was fair – particularly in his later years. I always thought the way he behaved depended entirely on how he was treated.”

Edited by Ibsey, 14 December 2016 - 13:24.

[opplock]

I watched Alesi win the F3000 race at Spa in 1989 and was convinced that he was a future champion. I was also at Silverstone on the day that John Aston recalled. He had natural ability in spades but like Chris Amon ended up with much less success in F1 than he perhaps deserved. He should have won more races for Ferrari and was at times denied by unreliability. I suspect however that Schumacher would have won in the 1996/97 Benettons. Signing 3 contracts/options for the 1991 season suggests that his lack of success was largely due to heart overruling head or poor management.    

[JtP2]

When did Nigel Roebuck ever write anything uncomplimentary about Jean Alesi?

As for the Williams present story, what about the phone nelson Piquet bought him?

Just looked over the 99 season review, Brakedisc gave me his excess book collection. His relationship with Peter Sauber ended up a bit strained. He even managed to run out of fuel in a Sauber.

I am quite sure his heart ruled his head most of the time and he should have gone to Williams for 91. But then Frank wouldn't have his Ferrari in his garage, would he?

[Ibsey]

Roebuck is as good as they get in racing journalism, IMHO. Sure Roebuck's might have had nothing but praise for Alesi throughout the years but if anyone knows Alesi, it's Nigel. I've read Nigel for years and have always found him to be fair. For instance even when Riccardo Patrese wouldn't talk to him for years, Roebuck was fair in his assessment of him. Don’t know about Nelson Piquet buying a phone for Sir Frank Williams. If it was true maybe that was after Xmas 1990 but that is beside the point. Which is contrary to what you’ve said Frank held Jean in very high regard and if would have happily had him back at Didcot after the 1991 affair. At Jean’s last race Frank Williams paid Jean the high compliment: 

 

'Sir Frank Williams, for whose team Alesi almost signed before he committed himself to many years in the wilderness with Ferrari, pays him the highest compliment. "He is a gentleman," he said. "No other driver treats me the way that Jean does. Every Christmas, he sends me a crate of champagne." ' 

 

http://www.telegraph...ll-spoiled.html

 

Wasn’t actually aware that his relationship with Peter Sauber ended up a bit strained. If true I can see why. IIRC for 1999 Alesi insisted Sauber develop a new 7 speed gearbox for the 1998 spec Ferrari engine. Sauber didn’t really do a good job of this hence all the gearbox reliability issues that season. So I can imagine each side blaming the other. Also after suffering yet another mechanical failure in Hungary 1999 Jean’s frusturation came to a head. As a result and in the heat of the moment action Jean announced in a post race interview on ITV F1 that he would be moving to Prost in 2000 BEFORE he had even told the Sauber Team. Is Hungary 1999 the race you are thinking of where Jean ran out of fuel in the Sauber? Because Wiki has him down as retiring due to fuel pressure. Certainly my impression at the time was it was a mechanical failure not a Jean failure. 

   

 

It often get forgotten that in 1990 Jean had no manager looking after him. Jean also stated one of the reasons he didn’t go to Williams was that they were also courting Mansell at the time as much as they were courting Jean. Whereas Ferrari only really had eyes for Jean which was really important to Jean.

[Mallory Dan]

Why did he need a 'Manager'?

[JtP2]

Jean ran out of fuel in Austria.

[E1pix]

The race that made me an Alesi fan, the unforgettable duel with Senna in the streets of Phoenix in 1990:
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=4Oh1OVW56kE

^ This! ^

An amazing display, amongst the best drives I've ever witnessed in person.

I struggled to bite tongue at a post above slamming two of an era's best, and. I. Almost. Did. We all have opinions, but RC styles should stay there.

[garoidb]

When did Nigel Roebuck ever write anything uncomplimentary about Jean Alesi?

As for the Williams present story, what about the phone nelson Piquet bought him?

 

That occurred to me too, but these remarks are not given under oath  . It can be overlooked. 

 

As it happens, Nelson and Jean were friends, I believe. 

[Ibsey]

Why did he need a 'Manager'?

;

This is what F1 driver managers typically do;

- Contract negotiations with team

- Contract negotiations with sponsors

- Negotiations wiht the current teams over scheduling and sponsor activities
- Manage the relationship between the team and driver - very important, but trying to keep the driver in the 'right place' from a psychological perspective is an under thought about aspect of the job.

- Manage/employ the driver's personal staff (potentially) - e.g. a PA, physio, trainer etc etc.
- Negotiate external/personal sponsors, though this does depend on the team. McLaren seem to take a very controlling view on this and manage the drivers so they can't/don't have external deals, whereas others (especially paying drivers) will need this to actually earn anything.

- If they're lucky enough to be in the top tranche, then it's setting up a deal with the team, both financial and performance wise (e.g. making sure they're not stuck at the team if they don't perform, get bonuses if they outperform and so on). Possibly ensure that you're the number one driver, depending on you and the team

I believe the majority of F1 drivers had/have managers. And I think everyone will agree that Jean’s heart ruled his head most of the time – so he was the type of person who really needed a manager in 1990.

Edited by Ibsey, 15 December 2016 - 08:52.

[Nigel Beresford]

I was Jean's race engineer in 1990, and he did in fact have a manager - his brother Jose.

 

Tyrrell being Tyrrell, i.e. a proper old school racing team with no proper marketing department, there were no driver staff or helmet carriers or any other leaches to be dealt with. There was a physio who worked on Jean (and, I suppose, a couple of other drivers) and that was it. Jose is a really nice guy (just like Jean), and though he wasn't a manager in the mould of Julian Jakobi or those types, he was there to take care of Jean's needs.

[Mallory Dan]

I rest my case, Nigel!!

[Ibsey]

Thanks Nigel & I'm happy to admit I got it wrong and forgot Jose was his manager at the time 

 

The reason I thought Jean didn't have a manager at the time, was I remember an interview from Jean saying he felt he was doing the contract negotations with Ferrari and Williams all on his own. So the question in mind is although Jose was his manager at the time how much managing did he do in reality?

 

As you eluded Jose was not a manager in the mould of Julian Jakobi or those types. Furthermore I found this interview with Jean apparently from July 2009 edition of F1 racing magazine;

"

In 1990, you had three contracts for the following year with Williams, Tyrrell and Ferrari..."

The first time Ferrari approached me, I said no because I had an option with Frank Williams.  When I signed it, though, I thought it was a cast-iron contract.  Frank said, "We've got to put an option in the contract but it's not a real option.  I want you, you'll drive for me."

The contract said he had to announce it by the French Grand Prix but, by then, he was chasing Senna as well.  My contract said I would be number one drive, so he knew there would be problems.  He put me on standby and said we'd wait until September.  But I didn't want to wait that long because if he didn't take up the option in September, I couldn't go to a top team.  I forced the issue and said that if he didn't announce the deal at the next race, I'd go to another team.  He said, "Ferrari want you." I said that it didn't matter who, just announce it.  And he said no.

"So you signed for Ferrari?"

By the next race, I had a Ferrari contract but I hadn't signed it.  I went to see Frank in his motorhome and said, "Frank, look at this.  If I sign, it's over." He said, "No, you've got a contract with me." I pleaded with him, he said no, so I signed it in front of him and went to Ferrari.  But what nobody knows is that Flavio and Nelson [Piquet] worked out my Ferrari contract because I wasn't brave enough to ask for money or things like a company car.  I'd have driven for free, but Nelson told me to ask for an F40 and, when I gave the contract to Ferrari, they said, "Not bad for a new boy!"

 

 

 

http://www.gprm.co.u...hp?topic=5159.0

 

Then it is well know that EJ saved Jean's F3000 career in 1988 and got him the tyrrell drive in 1989. Also didn't Jean change managers to Mario Miyakawa around 1995?

 

All of that suggests to me that whislt Jose was very nice and perhaps looked after certain things for Jean. He didn't "manage" Jean's contractal negotations with Ferrari, as much as Jean / others did. I certainly can't find any evidence of Jose leading Jean's contractal negotations around this period. Also in the FIA 1990 F1 season it is stated many people believed Jean's performance around Germany/Hungary was affected by all his contract negotations. IMO a 'real' driver manager wouldn't have allowed things to get to that stage for his driver.   

Edited by Ibsey, 16 December 2016 - 00:53.

[Nigel Beresford]

I don't know to what extent Jose directly managed his affairs in relation to the Ferrari/Williams deals, but I think your assessment that he was probably more of a supporter than a negotiator is correct. I doubt that there was back-and-forth negotiation anyway - Jean would have accepted the offer on any  terms. We were as happy as he was when he showed up in the motorhome once the Ferrari deal had been done, all excited and announcing "Ho una Rossa! Ho una Rossa!" ("I have a Red"). It was inevitable we would lose him and we were happy to see him get what he wanted, such was the love for him at Tyrrell.

 

The nicest thing about working with Jean was that with him in the car you knew that there was nothing whatsoever left on the table. Throughout my career I have never looked forward to going to the next race as much as I did in 1990. It was just a fantastic year.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 16 December 2016 - 09:56.

[chunder27]

Great post Nigel, and a real insight into what it must have been like for those working with such drivers.

[Ibsey]

 

I doubt that there was back-and-forth negotiation anyway - Jean would have accepted the offer on any  terms. 

 

Nevertheless I think Alesi’s overall contractual situation in 1990 was mess. In addition to the Ferrari/Williams contracts there were negotiations necessary to gain release from his Tyrrell contract. Accordingly to this article;

 

http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00054.html

 

At the 1990 German GP Jean called a press conference to ask the press to stop speculating. To give him some space to work everything out. Also Around this time Jean seemed to become increasingly keen to impress, and became prone to mistakes -  he collided with Martini in Hungary, and spun off at Monza. The point I'm making with this is a top manager looking after Jean’s contractal negotiations would have helped.

Edited by Ibsey, 16 December 2016 - 15:32.

[PlatenGlass]

As is usual on this forum, you are massively underestimating Hill and, frankly, overestimating Alesi.  By 1996, Hill was already head and shoulders better than Alesi.

Hill had the double benefit of the "best car illusion" (people's rankings of drivers are always biased by the car they are in, not just Hill) and having multiple team-mates over his period at Williams. I see no evidence that Hill was ever "head and shoulders" better than Alesi.

[BRG]

I see no evidence that Hill was ever "head and shoulders" better than Alesi.

You can't see a WDC and 22 GP wins?

 

None so blind as those that will not see.....