142 replies to this topic

[MonzaDriver]

Ciao to all forum members and a joyfull 2017 to everyone.

I've found this footage that drives me crazy.

Every second leave me astonished.

 

( if the link doesn't work here the name:1968 French GP Jackie Oliver crash with interviews )

 

Not only the shunt could have been very serious and the fault his clearly on the car,

but Chapman has the presence of mind to play mind games, aroused by looking at Mclaren's car.

Unbelievable, this man was unbelievable.

I cannot forget " Ehi Bruce I dont know ever to tell you............!!!!! "

And also " You better have a look to see any crack ........."

​​Another wing snap away from his car and Chapman say to McLaren people to be careful.............!!!

I noticed that Bruce McLaren didn't say a word,

maybe people on the pit lane were used to Chapman's attitude.

And his mind games were unsuccessfull.

And nobody dies in a McLaren car.

 

The best for 2017 to every member of the forum.

MonzaDriver

 

 

 

 

[2F-001]

And nobody dies in a McLaren car.

 

Really?

[MonzaDriver]

Really?

Well I dont remember any.......

[kayemod]

And nobody dies in a McLaren car.

 

 

Apart from Bruce himself of course.

[Richard Jenkins]

Well I dont remember any.......

What about the chap from New Zealand that you mention in your opening post?

[MonzaDriver]

Apart from Bruce himself of course.

I am sorry Keyemode, and Richard,

I was convinced it was a Lola where Bruce dies in.

Anyway you can agree, that very few drivers found Death in a McLaren car.

​I always had a soft spot in my heart for McLaren.

And Colin Chapman attitude say a lot about his care for the driver.

MonzaDriver 

[bill p]

MonzaDriver

How can you have a soft spot for Bruce and not know he was building and racing CamAm McLarens from 1965?

Edited by bill p, 27 December 2016 - 15:03.

[MonzaDriver]

MonzaDriver

How can you have a soft spot for Bruce and not know he was building and racing CamAm McLarens from 1965?

Bill, I have a soft spot for McLaren Racing team,

not Bruce in particulary, unfortunately because of my age,

I started following motor racing in 1974. unfortunately I totally miss the 60's

the real age of motor racing, before Chapman invented what would be a real bane for us: wings.

And all those stupid things that comes along with " downforce "

MonzaDriver 

[B Squared]

I don't believe that Chapman "invented" wings regarding application to racecars.

[B Squared]

Bill, I have a soft spot for McLaren Racing team,
not Bruce in particulary, unfortunately because of my age,
I started following motor racing in 1974. unfortunately I totally miss the 60's
the real age of motor racing, before Chapman invented what would be a real bane for us: wings.
And all those stupid things that comes along with " downforce "
MonzaDriver

You claim to have no knowledge of Bruce because of your age and not following racing until 1974; yet you post a 1960s video and your disdain for Colin Chapman in a time you claim to not have sufficient knowledge of....I'm a bit confused.

Edited by B Squared, 27 December 2016 - 15:59.

[Doug Nye]

Please cut a younger enthusiast some slack...each of us once had as much to discover...  

 

DCN

[john aston]

'The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there' is a very useful quotation to bear in mind ... 

[MonzaDriver]

You claim to have no knowledge of Bruce because of your age and not following racing until 1974; yet you post a 1960s video and your disdain for Colin Chapman in a time you claim to not have sufficient knowledge of....I'm a bit confused.

Well B Squared I claim nothing at all,

I am writing here based on my knowledge without consulting anything,

so by memory I cannot recall Bruce's years,

yet looking at 60's footages. you can say in the 60's you must be a real driver in to compete.

MonzaDriver

[2F-001]

The well-known Rouen film will be familiar to many of us here, although I only became aware of it included in retrospective documentaries; the interpretation of Chapman’s behaviour as gamesmanship seems to be that of the film-maker or narrator, but was there any evidence at the time to that effect? Or was it a retrospective analysis fuelled by Chapman’s reputation (deserved or otherwise). Also we don’t really know how the clips have been edited or assembled (or temporally rearranged) to particular effect.

 

We were only one season into the routine use of 'engine-as-stressed-member' and the attendant loads on gearbox and bell housing that that arrangement inferred. Whilst few of us, I presume, doubt the role of the wing in that incident, other possible failures must have been in mind to cloud the issue. I'm just not wholly convinced that Chapman isn't being painted a touch blacker than he deserved.

 

I can believe that Chapman, at the time, may not have been disposed to readily doubt the integrity of his wings - conferring, as they did, the promise of a clear advantage; could he have been genuinely considering other possibilities before he had closely examined the car or fully debriefed Oliver? The way the film presents things is clearly one of underhandedness. 

 

Lotus could not, at that point, have had a reputation for tall wings collapsing; Rouen was, I think, the first time they raced with them, so “another wing snapping away from his car” doesn’t seem fair, and places 'weighted' connotations upon his comments.

Edited by 2F-001, 27 December 2016 - 17:24.

[B Squared]

Please cut a younger enthusiast some slack...each of us once had as much to discover...  
 
DCN

With all due respect, I didn't enjoy this same slack when I joined in 2008, it was "game on" with my credibility from day one - except for a certain Michael Argetsinger and a few others. Mr. Driver registers in to TNF first in 2004; the opportunities to learn abound over his nearly 13 year stint.

Edited by B Squared, 27 December 2016 - 17:34.

[bill p]

Bill, I have a soft spot for McLaren Racing team,
not Bruce in particulary, unfortunately because of my age,
I started following motor racing in 1974. unfortunately I totally miss the 60's

MonzaDriver

I have a soft spot for pre-war Auto Unions and Mercedes-Benz which raced many years before I was born, I have learnt about them from books.

You should read books on Bruce McLaren to obtain a true insight into the beginnings of the great cars Bruce designed and built - happy reading!

[kayemod]

I have a soft spot for pre-war Auto Unions and Mercedes-Benz which raced many years before I was born, I have learnt about them from books.

You should read books on Bruce McLaren to obtain a true insight into the beginnings of the great cars Bruce designed and built - happy reading!

 

Me too with great drivers like Bernd Rosemeyer and Tazio Nuvolari. Long before I developed any interest in motor racing, before I was born in fact, but of course I learned about them from books. I searched out everything I could written about them, that's what's known as education.

 

Further to Brian's post above, "we 'ad it tough!" I first entered Autosport forums with Racing Comments, that's a real bear pit for any newcomer posting beyond their knowledge, absolutely no mercy shown there, TNF is a gentlemen's discussion group in comparison, but surely it's only common politeness to have some basic knowledge of anything you post on, including starting a new thread.

[Roger Clark]

The well-known Rouen film will be familiar to many of us here, although I only became aware of it included in retrospective documentaries; the interpretation of Chapman’s behaviour as gamesmanship seems to be that of the film-maker or narrator, but was there any evidence at the time to that effect? Or was it a retrospective analysis fuelled by Chapman’s reputation (deserved or otherwise). Also we don’t really know how the clips have been edited or assembled (or temporally rearranged) to particular effect.

We were only one season into the routine use of 'engine-as-stressed-member' and the attendant loads on gearbox and bell housing that that arrangement inferred. Whilst few of us, I presume, doubt the role of the wing in that incident, other possible failures must have been in mind to cloud the issue. I'm just not wholly convinced that Chapman isn't being painted a touch blacker than he deserved.

I can believe that Chapman, at the time, may not have been disposed to readily doubt the integrity of his wings - conferring, as they did, the promise of a clear advantage; could he have been genuinely considering other possibilities before he had closely examined the car or fully debriefed Oliver? The way the film presents things is clearly one of underhandedness.

Lotus could not, at that point, have had a reputation for tall wings collapsing; Rouen was, I think, the first time they raced with them, so “another wing snapping away from his car” doesn’t seem fair, and places 'weighted' connotations upon his comments.

Well put.

Oliver said that Chapman ran across the road (and some way down it) to make sure driver was all right. Remember what Chapman had already been through that year.

I was impressed with the way the monocoque of the Lotus seemed to be virtually undamaged. It must have played some part in Oliver being uninjured.

I have no idea whether Chapman was trying gamesmanship with McLaren but I'm sure that Bruce knew, even if Chapman did not, that the rear suspension of the M7A was mounted on a tubular frame attached to the engine and not to the gearbox.

This is the second time in a few days that a poster has been criticised for failing to meet expected standards. ''Twas the season of goodwill".

Edited by Roger Clark, 27 December 2016 - 19:11.

[PCC]

I have no idea whether Chapman was trying gamesmanship with McLaren but I'm sure that Bruce knew, even if Chapman did not, that the rear suspension of the M7A was mounted on a tubular frame attached to the engine and not to the gearbox.

I might be missing something obvious, but it's not clear to me how gamesmanship could be involved. Bruce was a very seasoned driver and a 'highly competent engineer' (to quote a post from Kayemod long ago), so Chapman was hardly likely to spook him with some specious technical revelation. And if it wasn't specious, then Bruce would have been completely capable of calmly assessing the risk himself. So I'm not sure that there was any advantageous 'game' there to be played. Isn't it just possible that Chapman was being honorable by sharing a potentially dangerous vulnerability with other teams?

[GMACKIE]

Dear MonzaDriver,

 

Suggesting an Englishman may have done something 'wrong', is not a good idea on TNF.

 

Signed,

 

One Who Knows

[Roger Clark]

I might be missing something obvious, but it's not clear to me how gamesmanship could be involved. Bruce was a very seasoned driver and a 'highly competent engineer' (to quote a post from Kayemod long ago), so Chapman was hardly likely to spook him with some specious technical revelation. And if it wasn't specious, then Bruce would have been completely capable of calmly assessing the risk himself. So I'm not sure that there was any advantageous 'game' there to be played. Isn't it just possible that Chapman was being honorable by sharing a potentially dangerous vulnerability with other teams?

I agree about Bruce McLaren but I thought gamesmanship was the implication of the film clip.

[MonzaDriver]

With all due respect, I didn't enjoy this same slack when I joined in 2008, it was "game on" with my credibility from day one - except for a certain Michael Argetsinger and a few others. Mr. Driver registers in to TNF first in 2004; the opportunities to learn abound over his nearly 13 year stint.

Well B Squared I didn't know this forum was a kind of quiz show.

[PCC]

I agree about Bruce McLaren but I thought gamesmanship was the implication of the film clip.

You're right, it definitely was. I just wonder if, as 2F suggested, it's entirely an invention of the filmmaker in this case.

[MonzaDriver]

Well put.

Oliver said that Chapman ran across the road (and some way down it) to make sure driver was all right. Remember what Chapman had already been through that year.

I was impressed with the way the monocoque of the Lotus seemed to be virtually undamaged. It must have played some part in Oliver being uninjured.

I have no idea whether Chapman was trying gamesmanship with McLaren but I'm sure that Bruce knew, even if Chapman did not, that the rear suspension of the M7A was mounted on a tubular frame attached to the engine and not to the gearbox.

This is the second time in a few days that a poster has been criticised for failing to meet expected standards. ''Twas the season of goodwill".

 

Roger I didn't know there are standard to be expected, in order to write here,

I really hope that the rules for pass this exam are more serious than the ones " used " by Chapman or Ecclestone,

to run F1.

I fear your reading, like the other members here, leave you the impression that their attitude, it's gentleman like. 

[2F-001]

I agree about Bruce McLaren but I thought gamesmanship was the implication of the film clip.

It’s more than an implication - it’s explicit in the commentary.

 

- - - - - - 

 

Whilst it’s not my place to speak for him, I feel sure that Roger was not suggesting there is a ‘rule’ or an ‘expected standard’ but that his remark was rebuke to anyone who might be suggesting there is… 

 

- - - - - - 

 

Interesting that Oliver, in the reflective piece obviously added years later, is not certian what actually caused the incident (even if some of us might feel otherwise!).

 

- - - - - -

 

Greg, I can see only one other post in this thread that displays anything that might possibly be construed as an ‘agenda’ - and that’s the opening one; (and Monza has expressed his feelings about Chapman in previous threads).

Other posts here are offering explanations of, and background and context to, what is said in the film clip; which of those contributions are you suggesting as invalid? And which do you declare to be biased on the grounds of nationality?

Edited by 2F-001, 27 December 2016 - 21:02.

[Ray Bell]

There was a time, MonzaDriver, when the nasty comments of this thread would not have happened...

When emoticons were not used to denigrate people or deride their posts. When everyone sought simply to be helpful to each other.

Not all were of the stature of Michael Argetsinger, but almost all seemed to want to contribute to a nice and friendly atmosphere.

Just how that changed I do not know. But the change commenced about five years into the existence of TNF and spikes up at times to be fairly unpleasant. We've lost a lot of knowledgeable contributors because of it.

I haven't watched the film clip and I don't think I will... it sounds like the whole thing might well be a 'beat up' and distorts what was really happening there. But I don't know that.

Thanks to Doug for his comment above... and Roger for his expression of frustration...

[Gokart Mozart]

I hope this message finds you all well, it was due time for my once-a-year post.

 

Once-a-year, as I'm one of the many who've stopped visiting TNF, for many reasons; most of which regarded some self-serving individuals who have found trivial matters (and posts) outweigh proper decorum and the origins of what TNF started out for long ago, back when I'd just follow along the countless threads on how to attempt to properly make an educated post without being looked at as a mere apprentice- I say that as I was 19 when i signed up for AtlasF1. Even today, I held back until now to reply.

 

It would be cruel and unjust to point fingers, so I won't name names, but in this community of those who value and cherish the history of a sport; there is no place for threads such as this other than within the 'Found on YouTube' thread; and even then- without commentary, as flawed as it may have been.

 

However, I will comment that the substance within the video was eye opening indeed. I suppose it is because as a junior driver, I often had mechanics/drivers/owners from other teams try to get into my head on the grid when I was in the prison of a cockpit with no where to escape to. Had someone come along and said what Chapman declared to me, I wouldn't have been so quiet as Bruce. Then again, perhaps that is why you've never heard of me!

 

Bruce and Colin did things rather differently, and I felt Chapman was mentally rebounding from the loss of a car. Gamesmanship? There is certainly room for interpretation.

 

This clip might represent both in an interesting light.

 

Respectfully Yours,

Jacques N. Dresang

Kettle Moraine Preservation & Restoration

[Roger Clark]

 

 

 

- - - - - - 

 

Interesting that Oliver, in the reflective piece obviously added years later, is not certian what actually caused the incident (even if some of us might feel otherwise!).

 

- - - - - -

 

 

Also, perhaps, interesting that the only modification to the Lotus wings at the next race was to make them taller!

[kayemod]

Also, perhaps, interesting that the only modification to the Lotus wings at the next race was to make them taller!

 

I think that was a case of "Forgive them for they know not what they do", the exact words I saw written with a felt tip on a discarded pece of extravagantly bespoilered bodywork out the back of McLaren's place in Colnbrook.

[uffen]

Did Chapman only approach McLaren with his concerns? Was McLaren his main opposition, or was McLaren just the next pit over from Lotus (i.e. convenient)? Or, was McLaren the only other team using the high wing? How many teams were using the same gearbox?

I really don't know the answers to these questions but surely knowing them would help answer questions about Colin's possible devious motives in this instance.

[Michael Ferner]

Okay, so Monza Driver is at it again. Most of us here know, he think's Colin Chapman was the devil incarnate, no matter how many saints with the patience of Job try to argue with him. What's the use? Cut some slack for a young "enthusiast"? This one's never going to "discover" anything. I, for one, am sick and tired of these post-factual discussions. If this is what TNF's about, then to hell with it!

[PCC]

There are two things I don't understand about this thread:

 

1) the clip is an interesting historical fragment. The narrator assumes it's gamesmanship. This can be questioned and discussed, and that's what's happening here. Why is that considered unacceptable by some?

 

2) In a forum with 29,993 topics, why would anyone even read, much less post on, one that they they think is worthless?

[Lee Nicolle]

I don't believe that Chapman "invented" wings regarding application to racecars.

Speedway Supermodifieds had been using wings since the early 60s, as well a race harnesses. As were dragsters

F1 may be more genteel and pucka but they were way behind in many respects.

Though how effective many of those speedway wings were is a matter of conjecture. I have a 1968 Classic Supermod and you do know the wing is there, I once tried without it,, very loose!

And if you do not put it down flat on the trailer it makes the trailer feel back heavy,, and the drag too is horrendous!

[Sharman]

Speedway Supermodifieds had been using wings since the early 60s, as well a race harnesses. As were dragsters
F1 may be more genteel and pucka but they were way behind in many respects.
Though how effective many of those speedway wings were is a matter of conjecture. I have a 1968 Classic Supermod and you do know the wing is there, I once tried without it,, very loose!
And if you do not put it down flat on the trailer it makes the trailer feel back heavy,, and the drag too is horrendous!

Google Michael May Porsche

[MonzaDriver]

I hope this message finds you all well, it was due time for my once-a-year post.

 

Once-a-year, as I'm one of the many who've stopped visiting TNF, for many reasons; most of which regarded some self-serving individuals who have found trivial matters (and posts) outweigh proper decorum and the origins of what TNF started out for long ago, back when I'd just follow along the countless threads on how to attempt to properly make an educated post without being looked at as a mere apprentice- I say that as I was 19 when i signed up for AtlasF1. Even today, I held back until now to reply.

 

It would be cruel and unjust to point fingers, so I won't name names, but in this community of those who value and cherish the history of a sport; there is no place for threads such as this other than within the 'Found on YouTube' thread; and even then- without commentary, as flawed as it may have been.

 

However, I will comment that the substance within the video was eye opening indeed. I suppose it is because as a junior driver, I often had mechanics/drivers/owners from other teams try to get into my head on the grid when I was in the prison of a cockpit with no where to escape to. Had someone come along and said what Chapman declared to me, I wouldn't have been so quiet as Bruce. Then again, perhaps that is why you've never heard of me!

 

Bruce and Colin did things rather differently, and I felt Chapman was mentally rebounding from the loss of a car. Gamesmanship? There is certainly room for interpretation.

 

This clip might represent both in an interesting light.

 

Respectfully Yours,

Jacques N. Dresang

Kettle Moraine Preservation & Restoration

I am happy some forum members agree at least to the fact,

that there is space for gamesmanship.

And in motor racing is a very usual habit. Take for example Rosberg and Hamilton,

they think they are so smart in gamesmanship......... in reality it's impossible to understand what they're saying.

Day after day.

Or like in GoKart Mozart's case, they let out the frustration of not having the money to race,

or like in Chapman, Ferrari, Dennis, Mosley, Ecclestone, and so on and on ........ the frustation of not being skilled enough,

to be a competitive racing driver.

​And to me the reason why gamesmanship is so effective in motor racing, is that a think like that ( the suspect of a Dangerous component or a wrong project  )

​could be devastating into the race. I mean into the Grand Prix itself.

​If you became nervous inside the cockpit, inside the Grand Prix, you can easily make a mistake and ruin your race.

MonzaDriver

 

  

[TecnoRacing]

Did Chapman only approach McLaren with his concerns? Was McLaren his main opposition, or was McLaren just the next pit over from Lotus (i.e. convenient)? Or, was McLaren the only other team using the high wing? How many teams were using the same gearbox?

I really don't know the answers to these questions but surely knowing them would help answer questions about Colin's possible devious motives in this instance.

 

McLaren would have been the only other team aside from the Tyrrell Matra runinng the stressed DFV + Hewland combination...

[RogerFrench]

MonzaDriver, you need to review your comment about Chapman not being skilled enough. Although his one GP entry didn't go too well, he had many race wins before that.

[MonzaDriver]

MonzaDriver, you need to review your comment about Chapman not being skilled enough. Although his one GP entry didn't go too well, he had many race wins before that.

 

​Yes, not skilled enough to compete in F1.

Just like the others I mentioned, it is strong conviction I have in my mind.

​MonzaDriver

[chunder27]

This place is no bear pit, if you are easily put off maybe or you give the slightest chuff what anyone thinks if you here maybe.

Otherwise, just write what you want within reason, wear a thick skin.

Some are pedantic, stuffy, but that is historic scene in general and is so pathetic sometimes it's funny!

[Roger Clark]

Michael Oliver says in his book Lotus 49:

 

"Initially Chapman was worried from Oliver's description of the accident that a gearbox bell housing had broken, and began to warn other teams using the same component that they should pull their cars in to check them.  Although over the years this act has been portrayed as a bit of Chapman gamesmanship and opportunism, Bob Dance maintains that, at the time,  Chapman was genuinely concerned about preventing any repetition of the incident and that it was only later when he had the chance to inspect the wreckage, that it became apparent that the whole rear end had been detached as a result of the impact rather then being the cause of it."

 

Michael also quotes Jackie Oliver as saying of Chapman:

 

"When things went wrong, being the type of person he was, he would normally be suspicious of the driver, and he'd also be suspicious that the mechanics might not have bolted it together properly  Then, if those possibilities could be eliminated, he would consider it could have been a design failure."

[Sharman]

There are suddenly a number of posters on this forum who would possibly be happier in the combative atmosphere of RC or PC.
And a Happy New Year to all our readers!

[MCS]

Also, perhaps, interesting that the only modification to the Lotus wings at the next race was to make them taller!

 

Yes, indeed - good point. Pole position (Hill) and second (Oliver) on the grid at Brands with the two red, white and gold cars both leading before mechanical gremlins set in.

 

I have often wondered how Oliver must have felt leading his home Grand Prix that afternoon. Perhaps something along the lines of initial disbelief, followed by the fervent hope of a magical victory in one of his first GLTL races, alongside a very real fear that he could end up in the trees at Westfield...

[E1pix]

I hope this message finds you all well, it was due time for my once-a-year post.

Once-a-year, as I'm one of the many who've stopped visiting TNF, for many reasons; most of which regarded some self-serving individuals who have found trivial matters (and posts) outweigh proper decorum and the origins of what TNF started out for long ago, back when I'd just follow along the countless threads on how to attempt to properly make an educated post without being looked at as a mere apprentice- I say that as I was 19 when i signed up for AtlasF1. Even today, I held back until now to reply.

It would be cruel and unjust to point fingers, so I won't name names, but in this community of those who value and cherish the history of a sport; there is no place for threads such as this other than within the 'Found on YouTube' thread; and even then- without commentary, as flawed as it may have been.

However, I will comment that the substance within the video was eye opening indeed. I suppose it is because as a junior driver, I often had mechanics/drivers/owners from other teams try to get into my head on the grid when I was in the prison of a cockpit with no where to escape to. Had someone come along and said what Chapman declared to me, I wouldn't have been so quiet as Bruce. Then again, perhaps that is why you've never heard of me!

Bruce and Colin did things rather differently, and I felt Chapman was mentally rebounding from the loss of a car. Gamesmanship? There is certainly room for interpretation.

This clip might represent both in an interesting light.

Respectfully Yours,

Jacques N. Dresang
Kettle Moraine Preservation & Restoration

We cannot afford to lose posters like this any longer.

Edited by E1pix, 28 December 2016 - 19:01.

[Gokart Mozart]

I am happy some forum members agree at least to the fact,

that there is space for gamesmanship.

And in motor racing is a very usual habit. Take for example Rosberg and Hamilton,

they think they are so smart in gamesmanship......... in reality it's impossible to understand what they're saying.

Day after day.

Or like in GoKart Mozart's case, they let out the frustration of not having the money to race,

or like in Chapman, Ferrari, Dennis, Mosley, Ecclestone, and so on and on ........ the frustation of not being skilled enough,

to be a competitive racing driver.

​And to me the reason why gamesmanship is so effective in motor racing, is that a think like that ( the suspect of a Dangerous component or a wrong project  )

​could be devastating into the race. I mean into the Grand Prix itself.

​If you became nervous inside the cockpit, inside the Grand Prix, you can easily make a mistake and ruin your race.

MonzaDriver

 

  

 

I'm really clueless as to how you came to the conclusion of 'not having the money to race' from what I said. Absolutely clueless.

[MonzaDriver]

I'm really clueless as to how you came to the conclusion of 'not having the money to race' from what I said. Absolutely clueless.

No GoKart Mozart it was a misunderstanding,

I wrote " GoKart Mozart's case..." meaning your telling, not you personally.

The persons who come up to you, playing mind games on the grid, were the ones who let out their frustration.

And take pleasure or advantage in this unbearable manner.

Me too I had to bear this awful manner, and for this I have few doubts about Chapman's attitude.

MonzaDriver

[GTMRacer]

I'm relatively new to TNF but do enjoy the level of discussion on here! Personally I have always believed Chapman to be a very competitive individual, from what I have read about him, he had been on the receiving end of petty decisions before (Le mans and his wheel nuts for example) and did like his hard won position in the pit lane and would do his best to protect that. Not sure if I can bring myself to believe he would try to profit from such a situation, but maybe I am too much of an optimist!

[MonzaDriver]

Dear members,

a link for those of you skeptical about mind games in F1.

And an eye opening about rules and specifications.

Half an hour of mind games, from their own voices

To me they play mind games even today in this video,

when  they could be retired years ago.

 

​https://www.youtube....h?v=effubzWEX2Q

 

if the link doesn't work here the name of the footage

The Brabham Boys (Ecclestone, Lauda, Blash, Whiting, Piquet) Interview With Martin Brundle              

 

[JtP2]

When was Chapman not up to F1 standard as a driver, By the time Lotus reached F1 he had reached a point in business where he was better off employed elsewhere in the team. He was probably quicker than Innes Ireland, in fact the wording could be simply "was" and that was the downfall of Innes's time at Lotus. Clark used to speak highly of Chapman's abilities.

 

On reading books on Bruce MaClaren, one should read Bruce MaClaren's book. Only really deals with his early career, but an excellent insight to life behind the scenes of late 50s/ early 60s motor racing.

 

As for the footage of Rouen, I have always taken it as gamesmanship and MaClaren was well used to dealing with Chapman, so treated him in exactly the right fashion.

Edited by JtP2, 29 December 2016 - 11:23.

[Roger Clark]

Dear members,
a link for those of you skeptical about mind games in F1.
And an eye opening about rules and specifications.
Half an hour of mind games, from their own voices
To me they play mind games even today in this video,
when they could be retired years ago.

​https://www.youtube....h?v=effubzWEX2Q

if the link doesn't work here the name of the footage
The Brabham Boys (Ecclestone, Lauda, Blash, Whiting, Piquet) Interview With Martin Brundle

I was going to recommend that interview. It's been showing on Sky Sports here in the U.K. The participants obviously enjoy each other's company and I've rarely seen Mr. E so relaxed.

[MonzaDriver]

I was going to recommend that interview. It's been showing on Sky Sports here in the U.K. The participants obviously enjoy each other's company and I've rarely seen Mr. E so relaxed.

How a nice person you are.

 

MonzaDriver.