112 replies to this topic

[f1paul]

Is it not obvious that the tracks are safe enough???

 

What's next, trying to flatten out any bits of undulation because the cars might go flying because they're "too fast"?

 

Stupid FIA!

[OO7]

Considering the installation of SAFER barriers, the organisers should find and consult old plans of the circuit (The version last used in 1993), then restore the old kinks and elevations that were on the back straight, but line them with SAFER barriers:

https://www.youtube....22Rc26Zw&t=1m0s

[SenorSjon]

I can remember Mario Andretti commenting on what he would change about F1 - maybe circa 2000 or so - and he said get rid of the gravel as it tended to keep perfectly functional cars out of the race unnecessarily. He thought the punishment for running off into gravel [retirement] was too great and removed too many cars from the race.

Then Vettel happened and a host of drivers cutting every corner in sight.

[johnmhinds]

Then Vettel happened and a host of drivers cutting every corner in sight.

 

Drivers cutting corners isn't a new thing, why do you think curbs were first introduced.

[Ruusperi]

It's finally clear to me. It is not Bernie or F1 Group that have destroyed Formula 1.

It was FIA all along. FIA kills all the excitement from motorsport - by taking all the challenge away from racing.

 

The only explanation for these absurd changes must be that the people coming up with these decisions are not motorsport fans themselves. They clearly don't understand the basic reason for why motorsport do exist: to provide excitement and joy for people.

[PayasYouRace]

Injured and dead drivers and trackside personnel are not going to provide excitement and joy.

Anyway these changes are so minor I can only assume that the complaints are from people who haven't bothered looking at the photos.

[cheesy poofs]

Considering the installation of SAFER barriers, the organisers should find and consult old plans of the circuit (The version last used in 1993), then restore the old kinks and elevations that were on the back straight, but line them with SAFER barriers:
https://www.youtube....22Rc26Zw&t=1m0s

That would be great but its not possible anymore as that part of the track is lined with trees now

[cheesy poofs]

Injured and dead drivers and trackside personnel are not going to provide excitement and joy.

Anyway these changes are so minor I can only assume that the complaints are from people who haven't bothered looking at the photos.

Haha, well said! Most people won't notice the difference come race weekend.

[OO7]

That would be great but its not possible anymore as that part of the track is lined with trees now

Chop down the trees.😈

 

Replant some more elsewhere.

[OO7]

That would be great but its not possible anymore as that part of the track is lined with trees now

 

BTW:  Checkout the marshal on the left side of the track!  https://www.youtube....22Rc26Zw&t=1m8s

[loki]

Seriously, that **** (with iirc armco bolted to a stone wall ffs) gets approved, but the WoC needs fixing? What in the actual f***?

 You're just jealous because you guys don't have a castle...

 

 

 

 

 

   

[Kristian]

Safe to say there's still going to be a wall of champions for drivers to hit.

The sky isn't falling my chicken littles.

 

It wasn't necessarily the wall - it was the chicane before it that drivers would lose control on unless they got it just right. It used to be grass and high kerbs with very low grip, now its a car park and if they go wide there's still time to get control. Its really not satisfying to see someone nail it anymore. 

[Jon83]

Is the FIA's pursuit of removing gravel from any F1 track because they think more cars will finish races?

 

Its something almost everyone who watches F1, be it fans or pundits, seem to think is a bad thing but we see more and more of it. 

[AustinF1]

 You're just jealous because you guys don't have a castle...

 

 

 

 

 

   

Can't have trees, I guess. Might as well have a castle!

[Kristian]

Is the FIA's pursuit of removing gravel from any F1 track because they think more cars will finish races?

 

Its something almost everyone who watches F1, be it fans or pundits, seem to think is a bad thing but we see more and more of it. 

 

 

Apparently its better in accidents. 

 

However, if its wet or the car has lost any wheels, its next to useless. But that's a debate done many times on this forum

 

(e.g. http://forums.autosp...n-de-jongs-car/, 

http://forums.autosp...armac-run-offs/ )

Edited by Kristian, 21 April 2017 - 10:08.

[PayasYouRace]

It wasn't necessarily the wall - it was the chicane before it that drivers would lose control on unless they got it just right. It used to be grass and high kerbs with very low grip, now its a car park and if they go wide there's still time to get control. Its really not satisfying to see someone nail it anymore.

They haven't changed that this year.

[Kristian]

They haven't changed that this year.

 

No, it was changed a few years ago. Its not been grass for a while. 

[PayasYouRace]

No, it was changed a few years ago. Its not been grass for a while.

Yet it increasingly tiresome for every thread to be used as an excuse to whinge about this sort of stuff.

[Kristian]

Yet it increasingly tiresome for every thread to be used as an excuse to whinge about this sort of stuff.

 

Well given that track aesthetics, abuse of track limits and sanitisation of the excitement of the sport are all issues which are detracting from the spectacle of modern F1, it is worthy of a debate. Just because you don't agree does not mean its whinging. 

[PayasYouRace]

Well given that track aesthetics, abuse of track limits and sanitisation of the excitement of the sport are all issues which are detracting from the spectacle of modern F1, it is worthy of a debate. Just because you don't agree does not mean its whinging.

None of that is the topic of changes made at Montreal this year.

Those things are worth discussing, but they don't need to be brought into every thread. It's not hard to find a thread about these things.

[Kristian]

None of that is the topic of changes made at Montreal this year.

Those things are worth discussing, but they don't need to be brought into every thread. It's not hard to find a thread about these things.

 

Well that's why I pointed to other threads specifically on the asphalt vs gravel subject, but changes at the last chicane of Montreal are one of the main talking points of this thread, so I'm not sure what you're taking issue with? 

 

Anyway... I don't want to get into a nitpicky side chat 

[johnmhinds]

They haven't changed that this year.

 

It's still relevant isn't it?

 

They removed the grass and drivers started driving through the corner faster because there was less risk to out braking, so now they have to move the wall back to make it safer.

 

Maybe that grass shouldn't have been removed in the first place if it was slowing the drivers down through a dangerous corner.

[cheesy poofs]

It's still relevant isn't it?

They removed the grass and drivers started driving through the corner faster because there was less risk to out braking, so now they have to move the wall back to make it safer.

Maybe that grass shouldn't have been removed in the first place if it was slowing the drivers down through a dangerous corner.

The "wall of champions" has not been moved back at all. Its what in front of it that will change. Its either gonna be tecpro or safer barriers. As I stated earlier, the track has replaced all the old guardrails that had been there for many many years and replaced with walls and new fencing.

Here's an example of the new wall lining the outside of the Senna curves and the existing wall still remaining.

https://goo.gl/photo...xeZohVW1AmKi2W7

[johnmhinds]

The motorsports.com article says the the angle of the wall at the last chicane is going to be modified, is that not the case?

[Nonesuch]

 You're just jealous because you guys don't have a castle...

Since AustinF1 quoted my post, I'll note that the mentioned Turn 15 at Baku is not the twisty bit around the castle but rather the corner following the long curved - and very high-speed - run down to the street leading unto the boulevard.

 

Seen here:

 

 

To be sure nobody misses this most obvious of safety features; I'll point out that the run-off is there on the right of the Pirelli banner.

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 April 2017 - 11:29.

[cheesy poofs]

The motorsports.com article says the the angle of the wall at the last chicane is going to be modified, is that not the case?

From what i saw at the track yesterday, the wall was slighlty reprofiled.

https://goo.gl/photo...mSVuhXZs3HEdDg8

https://goo.gl/photo...g5YmTyXSLyayB47

https://goo.gl/photo...yxUqgtWk93Au1aA

All the changes are subtle and wont be noticed much by people when you see the cars run on the track. The "wall of champions" might get more attention in the broadcast but that's it.

Edited by cheesy poofs, 21 April 2017 - 11:44.

[savvy2210]

Why dont they just race on a ****ing square of tarmac and with a chalk line drawn across it.

 

The chalk line get's slippery if it rains.

 

Don't you worry. They'll add more run off area, that is, if they run in the wet.

[Peat]

From what i saw at the track yesterday, the wall was slighlty reprofiled.

https://goo.gl/photo...mSVuhXZs3HEdDg8

https://goo.gl/photo...g5YmTyXSLyayB47

https://goo.gl/photo...yxUqgtWk93Au1aA

All the changes are subtle and wont be noticed much by people when you see the cars run on the track. The "wall of champions" might get more attention in the broadcast but that's it.

Thanks for going down there! I love the internet sometimes.

Ok, I'm really confused now. I thought the complaint was that a parallel wall was deemed too much of an aggressive angle. What they've done there is change it to a more perpendicular angle to the direction of the cars coming at it. How is that safer? Surely the idea would be to have the wall going away from the track, so that a crashed car washes away from the racing surface?

Whatever. Charlie & co. obviously knows what they're doing. Whatever the motive.

[Clatter]

Thanks for going down there! I love the internet sometimes.

Ok, I'm really confused now. I thought the complaint was that a parallel wall was deemed too much of an aggressive angle. What they've done there is change it to a more perpendicular angle to the direction of the cars coming at it. How is that safer? Surely the idea would be to have the wall going away from the track, so that a crashed car washes away from the racing surface?

Whatever. Charlie & co. obviously knows what they're doing. Whatever the motive.

I categorically disagree with your last paragraph.

[AustinF1]

Since AustinF1 quoted my post, I'll note that the mentioned Turn 15 at Baku is not the twisty bit around the castle but rather the corner following the long curved - and very high-speed - run down to the street leading unto the boulevard.

 

Seen here:

 

 

To be sure nobody misses this most obvious of safety features; I'll point out that the run-off is there on the right of the Pirelli banner.

Yeah it's not good.

 

Sorry, didn't make it clear in my post that the castle is not t15.

Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2017 - 12:29.

[AustinF1]

From what i saw at the track yesterday, the wall was slighlty reprofiled.

https://goo.gl/photo...mSVuhXZs3HEdDg8

https://goo.gl/photo...g5YmTyXSLyayB47

https://goo.gl/photo...yxUqgtWk93Au1aA

All the changes are subtle and wont be noticed much by people when you see the cars run on the track. The "wall of champions" might get more attention in the broadcast but that's it.

Those pics seem to suggest to me that the wall has been moved back and then angled more toward the track near the exit. Is that right?  The wall came right up to the green concrete before, correct? Looks like that increased angle on exit could kick the cars out onto the track or even across into the pit wall.

Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2017 - 12:35.

[OO7]

If F1 can have this: https://www.youtube....g_zlzQjI&t=1m8s then surely it can have the old Tamburello back.

[Risil]

Those pics seem to suggest to me that the wall has been moved back and then angled more toward the track near the exit. Is that right?

 

Maybe the wall has been moved back to make more room for Tecpro barriers at the point where cars are likely to crash.

[SenorSjon]

Thanks for going down there! I love the internet sometimes.

Ok, I'm really confused now. I thought the complaint was that a parallel wall was deemed too much of an aggressive angle. What they've done there is change it to a more perpendicular angle to the direction of the cars coming at it. How is that safer? Surely the idea would be to have the wall going away from the track, so that a crashed car washes away from the racing surface?

Whatever. Charlie & co. obviously knows what they're doing. Whatever the motive.

 

Usually a car oversteers and hits that wall with its rears first. They have now more space to do that, so the trademark crash won't be the same. The pavement on the chicane already made it easier to skip the corner. RIP Wall of Champions.

[AustinF1]

Maybe the wall has been moved back to make more room for Tecpro barriers at the point where cars are likely to crash.

Maybe so. IMHO that would be better than just moving the wall back and leaving an increased angle near the end of it. (Except, with TecPro, maybe the typical brush of the wall that happens so often there is more likely to turn into something bigger). I just don't see what was the big problem with it before.

Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2017 - 12:38.

[Kristian]

If F1 can have this: https://www.youtube....g_zlzQjI&t=1m8s then surely it can have the old Tamburello back.

 

Exactly; this is the issue. 

 

I can just about get on board with sanitised runoffs, if we are allowed to keep the great corners. 

 

But the likes of 130R, Tamburello, the final corner at Barcelona, etc. have also all been absolutely neutered in terms of layout. 

 

OK these modifications have been cited as 'lack of runoff space', but with the modern TechPro barriers and other wall solutions, I think there's no excuse (especially when you see what the likes of Baku get away with). Even in the litigous society that is America they still race with walls right on the outside of the track at 200mph+. 

[OO7]

Exactly; this is the issue. 

 

I can just about get on board with sanitised runoffs, if we are allowed to keep the great corners. 

 

But the likes of 130R, Tamburello, the final corner at Barcelona, etc. have also all been absolutely neutered in terms of layout. 

 

OK these modifications have been cited as 'lack of runoff space', but with the modern TechPro barriers and other wall solutions, I think there's no excuse (especially when you see what the likes of Baku get away with). Even in the litigous society that is America they still race with walls right on the outside of the track at 200mph+. 

130R is a little different however, because a head-on impact at the old corner would be too acute I believe and moving the barriers back would require extensive work (there is a drop on the other side).  Even after making these alterations there still may not be sufficient run-off.

[AustinF1]

If F1 can have this: https://www.youtube....g_zlzQjI&t=1m8s then surely it can have the old Tamburello back.

How much of that is concrete/SAFER/TecPro? Anyone have any idea? 

[johnmhinds]

The outside of those corners at Baku are SAFER barriers.

 

 

Turn 15 at the end of it is just TecPro in front of concrete blocks.

 

Edited by johnmhinds, 21 April 2017 - 13:01.

[OO7]

How much of that is concrete/SAFER/TecPro? Anyone have any idea? 

I believe the entire outside curve is SAFER barrier.

[Ruusperi]

I'm trying to reveal the tacit motives for FIA.

I think the problem is that FIA isn't going to admit: "Hey, we've done enough. Now we stand idle and stop working". That would make them look lazy and unproductive. Why would they want that? Their public image has been associated with "safety" for some time now.

Thus, for the sake of their position, they need to spend their working time for doing something. By sanitizing tracks they at least give an impression of being productive (even though no one demands new alternations).

 

Notice that FIA never sanitizes a track completely in one blow. Instead they leave work for the future as well. By changing tracks little by little, they ensure that there are work to do for decades to come. There's always some way to alter current tracks.

 

So, maybe after 30 years, once all the tracks have been sanitized to the maximum, FIA is left scratching their head and asking what to do next, and then, they will start making tracks more challenging again and soon will replace tarmac run off areas with gravel

Edited by Ruusperi, 21 April 2017 - 13:10.

[cheesy poofs]

Maybe the wall has been moved back to make more room for Tecpro barriers at the point where cars are likely to crash.

The red line on this pic shows the modification compared to the angle on this Google Earth capture.

Edited by cheesy poofs, 21 April 2017 - 13:19.

[Clatter]

The red line on this pic shows the modification compared to the angle on this Google Earth capture.

So they haven't actually changed the wall where there the crash tends to happen, but the part a bit further down that they are often scraping along at a very low speed?

[AustinF1]

I'm trying to reveal the tacit motives for FIA.

I think the problem is that FIA isn't going to admit: "Hey, we've done enough. Now we stand idle and stop working". That would make them look lazy and unproductive. Why would they want that? Their public image has been associated with "safety" for some time now.

Thus, for the sake of their position, they need to spend their working time for doing something. By sanitizing tracks they at least give an impression of being productive (even though no one demands new alternations).

 

Notice that FIA never sanitizes a track completely in one blow. Instead they leave work for the future as well. By changing tracks little by little, they ensure that there are work to do for decades to come. There's always some way to alter current tracks.

 

So, maybe after 30 years, once all the tracks have been sanitized to the maximum, FIA is left scratching their head and asking what to do next, and then, they will start making tracks more challenging again and soon will replace tarmac run off areas with gravel

Ah, so you're talking about yet another instance of topheavy bureaucracies changing things just for the sake of change in an attempt to justify their existence? 

 

This kind of thing is ruining everything. Not just sport. Everything.

[cheesy poofs]

So they haven't actually changed the wall where there the crash tends to happen, but the part a bit further down that they are often scraping along at a very low speed?

Correct.

[AustinF1]

@Cheesy, Thanks for the photos and the explanation! 

[Frank Tuesday]

I just finished reading an article about who's out of AMA supercross this week.  Then I came here and found this thread.  I get a kick out of the divide between F1 and  supercross.  The speeds are much lower is supercross, but the risk is much higher.  F1 is busy changing the angle of a wall of which (to the best of my memory) no driver has been significantly injured after hitting.  Meanwhile in supercross, there is a weekly injury report of who won't be racing due to injuries/illness.  This week, the list is 28 people long.  Granted, some are minor, but I count a combined 36 broken or fractured bones, many of which are vertebrae. 

Colton Aeck – Back, Ribs, Shoulder

Comment: Aeck was landed on in Arlington and fractured two vertebrae, some broken ribs, and hurt his shoulder. Road 2 Recovery has set up a fund for Aeck here. 

Jimmy Albertson – Various

Comment: After incurring multiple injuries in Daytona, including a fracture of the manubrium and body of the sternum (posteriorly displaced by 1cm), fractured T5 through T7 vertebrae, compression of the T4 through T6, epidural hematoma at T5 (epidural space is the outermost part of the spinal canal), bilateral patchy lung contusions, and a left metacarpal fracture, Albertson recently had surgery to have his T2 through T8 vertebrae fused. If you wish to make a donation to Albertson via Road 2 Recovery, go here. 

 

Mike Alessi – Collarbone

Comment: Alessi broke his collarbone before St. Louis on press day. He’s out for the supercross season.

Trey Canard - Virus

Comment: Canard will miss the rest of supercross with a virus. He’ll be back for Lucas Oil Pro Motocross.

Cody Gilmore – Concussion/Back

Comment: A big crash on the start of the 450SX LCQ in St. Louis resulted a concussion, a fractured C3, C7, and T1 vertebrae for Gilmore. He’s out for the season.

Josh Grant – Head

Comment: Grant went down in practice in Seattle and was forced to sit the night show out after he “rang [his] bell a little.” He’s since been cleared and will race in Salt Lake City.

Weston Peick – Kidney and Wrist

Comment: After getting injured early in the season Peick expects to be ready for Lucas Oil Pro Motocross. He’s been supplementing his rehab by wrestling snakes. 

 

Dustin Pipes – Collarbone

Comment: Pipes should be ready to go for Lucas Oil Pro Motocross after breaking his collarbone in Detroit.

Ken Roczen – Wrist, Elbow, Forearm 

Comment: Roczen is out for the foreseeable future after a big crash at Anaheim 2 left him with injuries to his wrist, elbow, and radius (forearm). He underwent another surgery this week on his elbow. Christian Craig will fill-in for him, starting at Hangtown.

Cole Seely – Leg

Comment: Seely has been dealing with a torn adductor muscle (located in the thigh) and tore it again when he dabbed his foot in practice in Seattle. He’s out for Salt Lake City. He posted this update to his Instagram today.

“I've always been one to take the recommended time off for an injury, 1 so my body is in working order after motocross, 2 to set a good example. Unfortunately I'm not racing this weekend but I will be in SLC with my team! I've started cycling with @jeffward3x this week and it's feeling a lot better just not race ready yet. See you guys in Utah”

250SX Chris Alldredge – Various

After crashing in qualifying and getting hit by Shane McElrath, Alldredge described his injuries in the following Instagram post: “Staying in Harbor View Hospital for a few days. Partially Collapsed Lung, small bit of Air in my Chest, Grade 1 Lacerated Liver and Adrenal Gland which are still bleeding a very small amount. Fractured 10th Rib, Fractured Pelvis, and Fractured L1, L2, L3, and L4 in my Lower Lumbar. Thanks for all the get well wishes, and be sure to send lots to @noahmcconahy59 as well." He’s out for the season.

 

Matt Bisceglia – Foot/Leg

Comment: Bisceglia is out for supercross after breaking his leg at Glen Helen.

Benny Bloss – Shoulder/Humerus

Comment: Bloss’ supercross season ended when he dislocated his shoulder and fractured his humerus bone in Minneapolis. He’s expected back for Lucas Oil Pro Motocross.

Tyler Bowers – Femur

Comment: Bowers fractured his femur in Glendale. He’ll make his return to racing this weekend.

Austin Forkner – Hip

Comment: Forkner missed Seattle after crashing the week prior and experiencing soreness in his hip. He’s in for this weekend.

Nick Gaines – Collarbone

Comment: Gaines broke his collarbone in Minneapolis. He’ll be back in East Rutherford.

RJ Hampshire – Tib/Fib

Comment: Hampshire won’t race again until the start of Lucas Oil Pro Motocross after fracturing his tib/fib in Toronto.

Logan Karnow – Back

Comment: Karnow crashed during qualifying in Detroit and fractured his T1-T3. He had surgery and is out indefinitely.

Chase Marquier – Shoulder

Comment: Marquier went down in Seattle and broke his scapula and dislocated his shoulder. He had his scapula surgically plated and will miss the rest of the season.

Alex Martin – Back

Comment: Martin crashed hard in practice in Detroit after getting hit by Christian Craig. He’s been rehabbing by wrapping what appears to be birthday-party balloon-animals around his leg. There is no official timetable on his return yet.

 

Jeremy Martin – Soreness

Comment: Martin missed Seattle after crashing hard while practicing for the Nationals. He’d hoped to be ready for Salt Lake City but he’s not quite ready yet. The earliest he’ll make it back is Las Vegas.

[Update: Martin is out for the remainder of supercross.]

Cameron McAdoo - Hand

Comment: McAdoo will return to racing in East Rutherford after cutting his hand before Daytona.

Noah McCononahy – Back

Comment: McConahy was involved in the same crash as Chase Marquier was in Seattle and broke his L5 vertebrae. He’s out for the season.

Colt Nichols – Knee/Tibia

Comment: Nichols tore his MCL and suffered a fracture to the tibia while practicing. He’s out for the rest of the season.

Phil Nicoletti – Ankle/Heel/Fibula

Comment: There’s a chance Nicoletti will be back for a few Nationals at the end of Lucas Oil Pro Motocross after dislocating his ankle, shattering his heel, and fracturing his lower fibula on press day in Arlington.

Trevor Reis – Knee and Foot

Comment: Reis is out for the season with a torn ACL and MCL.

Chase Sexton – Femur

Comment: Sexton broke his femur during practice in Atlanta and will miss the rest of Monster Energy Supercross.

Bradley Taft – Concussion

[cheesy poofs]

@Cheesy, Thanks for the photos and the explanation!

My pleasure. You really need to see the changes firsthand to better understand them. I will be going back in a few weeks to see how the changes are coming along.

[AustinF1]

Yeah I'll be there in a few weeks too ... around the 2nd weekend in June. Can't wait!

[RandomG]

Wow all that drama for what? They barely even changed the corner guys. Its still the same old Wall of Champions, just that little bit safer. They didn't ruin the corner.