143 replies to this topic

[Viryfan]

According to Auto Hebdo paper version , Mercedes lost all in the interest in keeping Wehrlein at Sauber since they have Honda engines for 2018 and Renault would be more than happy to have a faster driver for the remainder of the 2017 season.

 

Then for 2018 Ocon and Wehrlein would be exchanged.

 

Renault wants for 3 years Ocon but Mercedes are only ready to loan him for 2 years.

 

Talks are expected to continue at Silverstone and to continue at Budapest.

 

 

[Risil]

I need a diagram! That is Byzantine.

[EthanM]

I m unclear as to what Sauber's 2018 engines have to do with anything. I 'd guess " Mercedes have lost interest in Wehrlein" would be more accurate, Renault want Ocon (frenchie) Mercedes is willing to give them Wehrlein might be the even more accurate version

[tokengator82]

interesting...

[apoka]

So Palmer out at Renault and Wehrlein to Renault for 2017? And for 2018, Ocon from Force India to Renault and Wehrlein from Renault to Force India? Do I get that right?

[tokengator82]

So Palmer out at Renault and Wehrlein to Renault for 2017? And for 2018, Ocon from Force India to Renault and Wehrlein from Renault to Force India? Do I get that right?

yep and it sounds like a 2 year deal for bottas 

[MortenF1]

Find this a bit hard to believe, mainly because, where does Kubica fit in?

[tokengator82]

also this doesn't sound like a team planning to leave the sport in 2020...otherwise why would they be so reluctant to allow Ocon to stay beyond 2019? sounds to me like they hope the driver development continues with a plan to look hard at ocon and/or wehrlein for a seat in 2020 

Edited by tokengator82, 10 July 2017 - 20:30.

[Viryfan]

So Palmer out at Renault and Wehrlein to Renault for 2017? And for 2018, Ocon from Force India to Renault and Wehrlein from Renault to Force India? Do I get that right?

 

you got that right

[EthanM]

Find this a bit hard to believe, mainly because, where does Kubica fit in?

 

nowhere? renault have repeatedly downplayed the whole Kubica thing, and I doubt they are downplaying cause they 're afraid Ferrari or Merc will sweep in and sign Kubica instead. They are downplaying it cause it's a longshot

[EthanM]

also this doesn't sound like a team planning to leave the sport in 2020...otherwise why would they be so reluctant to allow Ocon to stay beyond 2019? sounds to me like they hope the driver development continues with a plan to look hard at ocon and/or wehrlein for a seat in 2020 

 

 

umm where do you get that from? Mercedes want Ocon available for 2019 (obviously in case Hamilton doesn't renew) ... where do you get leaving the sport vibes from?

[tokengator82]

umm where do you get that from? Mercedes want Ocon available for 2019 (obviously in case Hamilton doesn't renew) ... where do you get leaving the sport vibes from?

I've read it from several different posters on this site over the past month or so..I have no clue where they got it from but since it was from different posters I assume there has to be some sort of rumor floating out there in the interbays and ewebs

 

as for the first part of your post-- exactly..which is why i said it doesn't sound like those merc leaving rumors have merit. They are not behaving as a team that plans to leave

Edited by tokengator82, 10 July 2017 - 20:36.

[MortenF1]

nowhere? renault have repeatedly downplayed the whole Kubica thing, and I doubt they are downplaying cause they 're afraid Ferrari or Merc will sweep in and sign Kubica instead. They are downplaying it cause it's a longshot

Perhaps, but I think there's (way) more than 50% chance of Kubica returning next year. All these tests and being part of Renault in various circumstances aren't just for nothing, and definitely more than just for PR and creating a sympathetic story.

[LeClerc]

Where is Bas Leinders in all this?

[messy]

Doesn't make much sense to me. Reckon this is one of those stories that won't ever come to anything.

[Domi]

nowhere? renault have repeatedly downplayed the whole Kubica thing, and I doubt they are downplaying cause they 're afraid Ferrari or Merc will sweep in and sign Kubica instead. They are downplaying it cause it's a longshot

 

and that's the reason they decided to waste thousands euros for testing, seams reasonable 

Edited by Domi, 10 July 2017 - 20:45.

[EthanM]

and that's the reason they decided to waste thousands euros for testing, seams reasonable 

 

dude he's driving 6 year old cars. Red Bull, Ferrari even Merc have given Brundle publicity tests, even in newer Hybrid cars. i doubt they threw thousands of euros at it hoping to sign Brundle.They did it for the publicity

[Domi]

dude he's driving 6 year old cars. Red Bull, Ferrari even Merc have given Brundle publicity tests, even in newer Hybrid cars. i doubt they threw thousands of euros at it hoping to sign Brundle.They did it for the publicity

 

I don't think they given Brundle full day of testing (including race weekend simulations) which costs huge money, using many tires, fuel and everything.

Edited by Domi, 10 July 2017 - 20:52.

[tokengator82]

I don't think they given Brundle full day of testing (including race weekend simulations) which costs huge money, using many tires, fuel and everything.

maybe they were serious about the testing but have learned, from the testing, that a full return is not very likely 

[Ricardo F1]

I find it difficult to believe Palmers sponsors would agree to this necessarily.  It's not something that's as easy as that.

[garoidb]

dude he's driving 6 year old cars. Red Bull, Ferrari even Merc have given Brundle publicity tests, even in newer Hybrid cars. i doubt they threw thousands of euros at it hoping to sign Brundle.They did it for the publicity

 

 

I don't think they given Brundle full day of testing (including race weekend simulations) which costs huge money, using many tires, fuel and everything.

 

The tests with Robert generate a lot more publicity.  It could be genuine interest with the publicity as an added bonus, but hard decisions have to be made at some stage and sentiment won't come into it.

[EthanM]

I don't think they given Brundle full day of testing (including race weekend simulations) which costs huge money, using many tires, fuel and everything.

 

are you familiar with this ? https://www.renaults...rt.html?lang=en

 

I 'm pretty sure even Croft has driven the E20, the costs aren't as high as you think (for an F1 team)

[cravenciak]

dude he's driving 6 year old cars. Red Bull, Ferrari even Merc have given Brundle publicity tests, even in newer Hybrid cars. i doubt they threw thousands of euros at it hoping to sign Brundle.They did it for the publicity

 

This 6 years old car's corner speed is almost as big as in RS17, that's why he's driving it. Being sceptical is one thing, but ignoring all the facts we've been given is just silly.

[EthanM]

This 6 years old car's corner speed is almost as big as in RS17, that's why he's driving it. Being sceptical is one thing, but ignoring all the facts we've been given is just silly.

 

what 'facts' have we been given? If they wanted Kubica in the race team he'd be testing the race car, there's an inseason test coming up after Hungary, in less than 3 weeks time. Will he drive it? 

Giving a guy that had a tragic accident 6 years ago a 6 year old car for a day is good publicity. The rest is nothing but overactive imaginations running wilde. Unless Renault come out and say, hey yeah we 're evaluating Robert for a race seat. They literally have 0 reason not to say it if it's true, it's not like there's dozens of teams forming a queue to sign him and Renault are afraid of the competition. At this point, all Renault are saying is they are evaluating if he's even capable of performing to F1 standards. That's the only 'fact' I am aware of. The jump from that to he got a seat for 2018 is pretty massive (and also extremely off topic)

[Marklar]

Someone will end up with 3 drivers again.

[EthanM]

Someone will end up with 3 drivers again.

 

ericson-palmer-wehrlein deathmatch for the 2 Sauber-Honda seats? with Monisha gone?

[noikeee]

This is great. I like it. Everybody wins.

 

Renault -> They get better drivers

 

Wehrlein -> Gets a massive promotion

 

Mercedes -> They properly train Ocon and Wehrlein for a fraction of the price as now Renault would pay for the seat, Ocon would even have better training as a factory driver

 

Sauber and Palmer -> Okay they look like the short-term losers in this, but Palmer-Sauber looked like a logical outcome for next yeay anyway so what about a headstart? Also, a nice team-mate for Ericsson to race against which will please the Sauber owners...

 

Force India -> Even they win. Okay they don't like Wehrlein but a bit of peace now after Ocon and Perez have clashed a few times will help.

 

The only problem here is that it's just too many involved parties, so to coordinate all of this takes some massive effort. One slight lapse here and there by someone and it could all crumble.

[tghik]

are you familiar with this ? https://www.renaults...rt.html?lang=en

 

I 'm pretty sure even Croft has driven the E20, the costs aren't as high as you think (for an F1 team)

I think you are not familiar with real testing costs: "pre-season testing row, adding a Bahrain test would be “a £400,000 minimum extra cost” that's for 3 days. You are misled by 2 laps of publicity and 115 full weekend simulation.

 

Also why they didn't advertise the test before it happened ? it was a private test, if they wanted publicity they would not make 2 days comparative test with Sirotkin ? and if it was publicity and they were not serious, why there is a follow up test coming up ?

Edited by tghik, 10 July 2017 - 21:23.

[LiftAndCoast]

I can't see the point of a mid season swap. The drivers know the cars, they'd need a few races to get up to speed and then we're three quarters of the way through the calendar. And what does any of this achieve? The 2018 moves might make some sense, but then I don't think that Mercedes would want to lose access to Ocon for a number of years, particularly after being burnt by the Rosberg retirement. I'm very skeptical on this one.

[Marklar]

I think you are not familiar with real testing costs: "pre-season testing row, adding a Bahrain test would be “a £400,000 minimum extra cost” that's for 3 days. You are misled by 2 laps of publicity and 115 full weekend simulation.

You are comparing a testing week in Bahrain (!) with new cars and a whole team to a test day in Europe with a old car and a very small testing team.

[Graveltrappen]

Might be good for Jo, take the pressure off a bit and he'd be welcomed by Sauber as they love a paydriver.

But I'd imagine this is all bull crap.

[EthanM]

I think you are not familiar with real testing costs: "pre-season testing row, adding a Bahrain test would be “a £400,000 minimum extra cost” that's for 3 days. You are misled by 2 laps of publicity and 115 full weekend simulation.

 

3 day development test with current cars/tyres costs A LOT MORE than a one day test with a 6 year old car and 3rd party tyres ...

 

a preseason test would involve pretty much the whole race team, fab, pirelli supplied rubber, expensive engines etc ... the 2012 car is cheap enough they lease it for corporate 'fun days', let it go, it's a losing argument.

 

PS Stroll did a private test, with a 2014 car, in COTA between Canada and Baku. And AFAIR it was even a multiday test. I promise you, the costs aren't as insane as you think. Fabing a steering wheel for the current car probably costs more than a day test in a pre-hybrid car, including track rental, blah blah blah.

[tghik]

3 day development test with current cars/tyres costs A LOT MORE than a one day test with a 6 year old car and 3rd party tyres ...

 

a preseason test would involve pretty much the whole race team, fab, pirelli supplied rubber, expensive engines etc ... the 2012 car is cheap enough they lease it for corporate 'fun days', let it go, it's a losing argument.

 

PS Stroll did a private test, with a 2014 car, in COTA between Canada and Baku. And AFAIR it was even a multiday test. I promise you, the costs aren't as insane as you think. Fabing a steering wheel for the current car probably costs more than a day test in a pre-hybrid car, including track rental, blah blah blah.

I didn't say it was as expensive as new car testing, but using engineers and mechanics (reported) and use another driver for 2 days and make it full simulation weekend make it only less expensive in parts. All other costs stay equal.

 

And you insist on publicity, then if it was such I would make sure everybody knows about, with tv around. They made it private why ? they used another driver for comparison, why ? why do full weekend simulation, why ? for publicity they don't run qualy/race simulation for 2 drivers, they do 2-30 laps, why ? and then follow up test, why ? can you answer these questions ?

Edited by tghik, 10 July 2017 - 21:39.

[EthanM]

I didn't say it was as expensive as new car testing, but using engineers and mechanics (reported) and use another driver for 2 days and make it full simulation weekend make it only less expensive in parts. All other costs stay equal.

 

And you insist on publicity, then if it was such I would make sure everybody knows about, with tv around. They made it private why ? they used another driver for comparison, why ? and then follow up test, why ?

 

it was so private everybody found out about it

 

private were the dozens of tests Stroll did in 2016 which nobody found out about, and for the most part nobody outside the team and stroll himself even knows, a year later, knows any details about.

 

why? cause they feel sorry for him? Cause throwing away A FEW thousand euros for a month of publicity is pretty good value? cause sure IF he can perform to F1 standards (which as per Cyril Abiteboul they don't know yet) they will look at him?I mean ... a million reasons that don't include 'Kubica has a 2018 Renault seat in  his pocket'.

 

meantime they are looking at  probably the most promising French driver since Prost, bonus, he's 12 years younger than Kubica and sorry, doesn't need to prove he can perform to F1 standards, he's doing it. And this somehow sounds 'unrealistic' to you.

[Lennat]

I find it difficult to believe Palmers sponsors would agree to this necessarily.  It's not something that's as easy as that.

 

In all seriousness, it might give better publicity to be close to/match/beat/whatever Ericsson than to get crushed by the Hulk.

[Clatter]

it was so private everybody found out about it

private were the dozens of tests Stroll did in 2016 which nobody found out about, and for the most part nobody outside the team and stroll himself even knows, a year later, knows any details about.

why? cause they feel sorry for him? Cause throwing away A FEW thousand euros for a month of publicity is pretty good value? cause sure IF he can perform to F1 standards (which as per Cyril Abiteboul they don't know yet) they will look at him?I mean ... a million reasons that don't include 'Kubica has a 2018 Renault seat in his pocket'.

meantime they are looking at probably the most promising French driver since Prost, bonus, he's 12 years younger than Kubica and sorry, doesn't need to prove he can perform to F1 standards, he's doing it. And this somehow sounds 'unrealistic' to you.

People may have found out about because there is a lot of interest in Kubica, who was interested in Stroll? How many had even heard of him?

[EthanM]

People may have found out about because there is a lot of interest in Kubica, who was interested in Stroll? How many had even heard of him?

 

The more realistic explanation is people found out cause they (Renault/Kubica) informed the media ... then Renault even tweeted about it, including a video. On the day the test happened. 

[scheivlak]

People may have found out about because there is a lot of interest in Kubica, who was interested in Stroll? How many had even heard of him?

Everybody with some decent interest in this sport?

[tghik]

it was so private everybody found out about it

 

private were the dozens of tests Stroll did in 2016 which nobody found out about, and for the most part nobody outside the team and stroll himself even knows, a year later, knows any details about.

 

why? cause they feel sorry for him? Cause throwing away A FEW thousand euros for a month of publicity is pretty good value? cause sure IF he can perform to F1 standards (which as per Cyril Abiteboul they don't know yet) they will look at him?I mean ... a million reasons that don't include 'Kubica has a 2018 Renault seat in  his pocket'.

 

meantime they are looking at  probably the most promising French driver since Prost, bonus, he's 12 years younger than Kubica and sorry, doesn't need to prove he can perform to F1 standards, he's doing it. And this somehow sounds 'unrealistic' to you.

"tests Stroll did in 2016 which nobody found out about" how do you know about it then ? not so private after all, see I just played the same argument you did

 

throwing away A FEW thousand euros" I don't know which world you live in, I overheard a conversation a guy talking to a mechanic in the paddock, he said beginning mechanic, starts at 100K a year, the head mechanic is 250K. Now a cheap engineer in normal life will 70-80K, guy with intermediate experience, in F1 you would have to double that. now you have to send the whole crew, pay time for their travel, then do the same for the return. Also you got to pack everything, at least a smaller container, go ahead check the prices for transport. Maybe they have a truck driver on their payroll, him alone will costs close to a grant for those few days, and he is the smallest expense. Tires are gone so you need lets say renault is super cheap and they used only 1 set of tires for each day (115 laps on 1 set yes it is possible LOL), and let's say renault being the cheapest team, they went to a regular store and bought 200$ a tire (I've never seen a F1 tyre in any store but heythey cost the same as all regular tyres), that would make you costs you 1600. just a truck driver, gas for his truck and tyres would be your FEW thousand. And I was being unrealistic about everything. I didn't even count the engineers and mechanics, their travel, their salaries, circuit rental, other logistics etc... Renault is the least expensive team in the paddock, their mechanics and engineers sleep in the garage and feed only on bread and water...look I don't see point continuing this conversation, with "few thousand" just proved your unrealistic view on F1.

 

P.S. on second thought please tell me where I can do 2 full days of 100laps/day qualy and race sim for few thousand, I'd be interested, I could even make a business out of it, plenty of people would be interested

Edited by tghik, 10 July 2017 - 23:17.

[maximilian]

Sounds like BS to me.  Renault has too many options on the table right now to be taking on someone like Wehrlein:

 

- Hulkenberg under multi-year contract already

- possible return of Kubica to replace Palmer mid-season and/or 2018

- with Ferrari door apparently firmly closed, Renault is back to being perhaps the only real option for Alonso to leave McLaren.

 

Neither Wehrlein nor Ocon would fit into that scenario.  Certainly not Wehrlein.  And Ocon is under contract at Force1 for next year.  I don't see them letting him go to a direct competitor for midfield supremacy.

Edited by maximilian, 10 July 2017 - 23:10.

[William Hunt]

Auto Hebdo is the French counterpart of Autosport in the UK, Auto Sprint in Italy and Auto, Motor und Sport in Germany.
I used to buy the print magazine every week since I was a 13-14 year old kid and did that for 20 years, now I just buy it very sporadically.

But what I want  to say is that this is a very serious magazine that double checks their sources, it's not a gossip paper that makes up stuff like some tabloids, like the Dutch press who write every 2 weeks that Max signed for Mercedes or Ferrari or like Bild in Germany

 

Auto Hebdo also have sources within Renault so they would not write this if there have not been any negotiations behind the screen.

 

Now in the '80s and '90s mid-season musical chairs was actually very common, in '89 it seemed like drivers were switching teams non-stop during the season: that was actually very entertaining for the fans, sadly no internet forums back then yet. In '89 we had Alboreto switching mid season from Tyrrell to Larrousse (because he was sponsored by Marlboro and Tyrrell had Camel who wanted Alesi), Dalmas going from Larrousse to AGS and Alesi taking Michele's seat and that was just one of may driver movements that year.

 

In the '90s and early 2000s we also saw in season driver movements a lot, especially towards the end of the year.

Now times have changed, teams tend to sign drivers for 2-3 years nowadays, 1 year contracts used to be much more common, which makes silly season more boring and this also prevents drivers switching teams mid season because it's much more expensive nowadays to cancel a contract, especially a multi-year contract or in Palmer's case a contract from a pay driver who brings millions of euro's to a team.

For several reasons I find the scenario from Auto Hebdo not so plausible.

 

First of all: why would Force India (or Force One next year) agree to lose Ocon to Renault when they are very happy about him?

(Although it seems Perez is less happy with his team mate, there seems to be a lot of friction between the two.)

Ocon signed a two year contract with Force India after the team refused to sign up Wehrlein because they allegedly liked Ocon's personality more as Pascal's (in other words they found Pascal arrogant).

They would surely not be happy if Mercedes would now "force" Wehrlein upon them when they did not want him before. Such a scenario would also be an expensive one for Mercedes: Force India will not do this for free + their Austrian main sponsor is pushing them very hard to give a seat to Lucas Auer next year, they could lose that sponsorship if they don't give Auer a seat at one point, I expect him to be their Friday tester in 2018.

 

Second of all: why would Palmer agree to this? He surely has signed a water tight contract that will be very expensive for Renault to break.

Paying lots of money for driving a midfield factory car or paying for driving a Sauber is not the same.

I can imagine that the Palmer familly is less keen on transfering their funds to Sauber.

 

And third of all: a French team with two Germans (Wehrlein & Hülkenberg) is not good for sponsors, it's always better to have two drivers with a different nationality so the sponsors reach a wider audience. It also wouldn't go down that well with French fans.

If Renault is that keen on signing a French driver I wonder why they are not going after Pierre Gasly (after reading that Toro Rosso is set to keep Kvyat, against all odds, again for next year) or even better: Jean-Eric Vergne.

 

PS: this is not a thread about Kubica, that's really off topic imho

Edited by William Hunt, 10 July 2017 - 23:18.

[jonpollak]

I need a diagram! That is Byzantine.

 

Oh good call Liberty... Exchange as many drivers as you can for Byzantine artifacts.

[EthanM]

"tests Stroll did in 2016 which nobody found out about" how do you know about it then ? not so private after all, see I just played the same argument you did

 

throwing away A FEW thousand euros" I don't know which world you live in, I overheard a conversation a guy talking to a mechanic in the paddock, he said beginning mechanic, starts at 100K a year, the head mechanic is 250K. Now a cheap engineer in normal life will 70-80K, guy with intermediate experience, in F1 you would have to double that. now you have to send the whole crew, pay time for their travel, then do the same for the return. Also you got to pack everything, at least a smaller container, go ahead check the prices for transport. Maybe they have a truck driver on their payroll, him alone will costs close to a grant for those few days, and he is the smallest expense. Tires are gone so you need lets say renault is super cheap and they used only 1 set of tires for each day (115 laps on 1 set yes it is possible LOL), and let's say renault being the cheapest team, they went to a regular store and bought 200$ a tire (I've never seen a F1 tyre in any store but heythey cost the same as all regular tyres), that would make you costs you 1600. just a truck driver, gas for his truck and tyres would be your FEW thousand. And I was being unrealistic about everything. I didn't even count the engineers and mechanics, their travel, their salaries, circuit rental, other logistics etc... Renault is the least expensive team in the paddock, their mechanics and engineers sleep in the garage and feed only on bread and water...look I don't see point continuing this conversation, with "few thousand" just proved your unrealistic view on F1.

 

 

you don't seem to grasp that an F1 steering wheel costs 60,000 Euro to fab. A front wing? assembly ? ~ 160,000 Euro

 

an F1 team paying 30-40-50-60,000 Euro for a test day that generates publicity is literally chump change. Go do some ad buys on 'mainstream' media and figure out how much Renault would have to spend to get an ad for them running in the Times, Guardian, Independent, Sky blah blah blah.To  you i50-60-whateverthousand euro might sound like massive amounts of money, for an F1 team it's literally nothing. But i did chuckle at you being amazed at an F1 team spending a couple of grand for a set of tyres. They spend more on consumables for their nespresso  machines every day. No that's not an exaggeration.

 

PS we found out vague details about Stoll's tests cause Williams said he tested in 2016, months after the actual tests happened. While they happened, we were blissfully unaware. Renault were tweeting about Kubica testing on the day  the test was happening ... I mean this tweet is timestamped 8:30 AM for me, even if that's US/Europe time difference type of deal, they still tweeted on the day he tested. That's pretty laughable if you want to keep a test secret.

Edited by EthanM, 10 July 2017 - 23:17.

[warp]

In Kubica case, the only reason I can think of for Renault to have him test is for publicity and to get him up to speed to eventually test the current car. Probably they want to have an experienced driver apart from Hulkenberg to drive the car and help with development.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

This is great. I like it. Everybody wins.

 

 

Palmer? Wins? 

[tghik]

you don't seem to grasp that an F1 steering wheel costs 60,000 Euro to fab. A front wing? assembly ? ~ 160,000 Euro

 

an F1 team paying 30-40-50-60,000 Euro for a test day that generates publicity is literally chump change. Go do some ad buys on 'mainstream' media and figure out how much Renault would have to spend to get an ad for them running in the Times, Guardian, Independent, Sky blah blah blah.To  you i50-60-whateverthousand euro might sound like massive amounts of money, for an F1 team it's literally nothing. But i did chuckle at you being amazed at an F1 team spending a couple of grand for a set of tyres. They spend more on consumables for their nespresso  machines every day. No that's not an exaggeration.

 

PS we found out vague details about Stoll's tests cause Williams said he tested in 2016, months after the actual tests happened. While they happened, we were blissfully unaware. Renault were tweeting about Kubica testing on the day  the test was happening ... I mean this tweet is timestamped 8:30 AM for me, even if that's US/Europe time difference type of deal, they still tweeted on the day he tested. That's pretty laughable if you want to keep a test secret.

Private doesn't mean secret. If Sirotkin tested and they posted about it, then they didn't mean to keep it secret, common sense.

Not long ago you posted few thousand for 2 days, now it became 30-40-50-60,000 Euro a day after my post. You are going to twist around. sorry, I'm off

[EthanM]

Private doesn't mean secret. If Sirotkin tested and they posted about it, then they didn't mean to keep it secret, common sense.

Not long ago you posted few thousand for 2 days, now it became 30-40-50-60,000 Euro a day after my post. You are going to twist around. sorry, I'm off

 

yes for a works f1 team, 30-40-50-60,000 is literally a few thousand. Try to grasp their budgets run in the hundreds of millions per season

[pingu666]

prising ocon from force india is easy, just lubricate with money.

[EthanM]

prising ocon from force india is easy, just lubricate with money.

 

apparently Ocon (and Wehrlein are contracted to Mercedes) and leased for lack of a better term by Sauber/FI so ... not so simple

[pingu666]

throwing what they are at kubica testing, its not cheap whatever it is. also its time away from "proper" work for some of the staff. theres more than just doing 115 laps for the lulz i think. might not be about robert so much, but still ...