4262 replies to this topic

[New Britain]

They will be looking at 30-40 million extra in performance payments if they keep Alonso and Renault take a step or two forwards. Podiums should mean interest from sponsors, 60-70 mil is a big ask though.  

 

 

 

If I understand the published numbers correctly - and I do not presume that I necessarily do - the Constructors' performance payments of which you speak are the so-called "Column 2" payments, and the difference between 9th place and 4th place is roughly $25m/yr.

[Flyhigh]

No, it's because they hope it will be. If it turns out that Honda come good, RB will take the PU themselves and have a works deal. If it turns out that it's beyond Honda's capability to do it, then all that will be lost is a season for TR.

RBR is in a totally different situation than Mclaren. They have a Guinea Pig team that they could do whatever experiments they want with it, no problems, test new drivers, new engines, for them is not a serious problem if they become a backmarker, they can wait and "hope" if they want. Mclaren doesn´t have a guinea pig team, it has been the guinea pig and it can no longer go forever as it, at least not willingly so. 

Edited by Flyhigh, 05 September 2017 - 22:26.

[New Britain]

RBR is in a totally different situation than Mclaren. They have a Guinea Pig team that they could do whatever experiments they want with it, no problems, test new drivers, new engines, for them is not a serious problem if they become a backmarker, they can wait and "hope" if they want. Mclaren doesn´t have a guinea pig team, it has been the guinea pig and it can no longer go forever as it, at least not willingly so. 

 

True. Other differences are that McLaren does not have a commercial sponsor with essentially unlimited funds, and it does not have the clout with the FIA and Commercial Rights Holder that is enjoyed by Red Bull, which controls 20% of the starting grid as well as its own Formula One race.

[w1Y]

RBR is in a totally different situation than Mclaren. They have a Guinea Pig team that they could do whatever experiments they want with it, no problems, test new drivers, new engines, for them is not a serious problem if they become a backmarker, they can wait and "hope" if they want. Mclaren doesn´t have a guinea pig team, it has been the guinea pig and it can no longer go forever as it, at least not willingly so.

Yeah which is why I have suspicions on torro Rossi turning up with a long wheel base car with a similar suspension to Merc. Almost as if RB has insider information and used TR to test it

[pdac]

End of July I believe.

 

 

Start of May

 

 

The power unit supplier must inform the FIA by 15 May of which teams it will be supplying.

 

With that information, the FIA have until 01 June to inform a PU supplier if the "Obligation to Supply" will be invoked against it and for which team.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I clearly did not understand the whole process correctly.

[Brazzers]

Too many posts about McLaren leaving Honda and how they should stick it out. I feel this is a similar situation when I was looking at changing jobs, I was definitely unhappy with my previous employer for numerous reasons and was desperate to find another firm (abit like McLaren wanting to leave Honda for Renault). I was definitely getting good coin (not as great as McLaren’s apparent 100 million from Honda) and those around me were telling me how I should stick out and it’s too much of a risk leaving a comfortable environment for another. Although, McLaren is in anything but a comfortable place in terms of results. I think it’s definitely worth the risk to jump to Renault, I had the same doubts when I had left for my current firm whether the culture, pay, progression would be as great and whether I would be good enough to take up the task as I was risking a potential high executive role becoming available down the road. I did end up making the switch the change led to better things for me and a better position at the end of it. I think McLaren making the change will help the team limit the damage and get back to the top. F1 and Finance are quite similar in that it’s a predominantly results driven business and sport.

 

McLaren took the risk with Honda and it didn’t work, it’s worth the time and effort to go to Renault. The 3 years gone are sunk costs and McLaren need to go forward, sometimes a sideways step can lead to Gold. Change to Renault is definitely a sideways step, but it’s better than Honda and does give McLaren opportunities down the road. It’s going to be a long-term investment for McLaren to return to the top and Honda have shown they are not simply up to. It’s understandable some see Honda coming good one day but McLaren cannot afford the PR and Brand damage if it keeps fighting around the bottom and blowing up every race weekend. It’s a paradox situation McLaren is in. 

Edited by Brazzers, 06 September 2017 - 13:17.

[deedee]

McLaren Renault

 

Toro Rosso Honda

 

It's done.

[tifosii]

Too many posts about McLaren leaving Honda and how they should stick it out. I feel this is a similar situation when I was looking at change jobs, I was definitely unhappy with my previous employer for numerous reasons and was desperate to find another firm (abit like McLaren wanting to leave Honda for Renault). I was definitely getting good coin (not as great as McLaren’s apparent 100 million from Honda) and those around me were telling me how I should stick out and it’s too much of a risk leaving a comfortable environment for another. Although, McLaren is in anything but a comfortable place in terms of results. I think it’s definitely worth the risk to jump to Renault, I had the same doubts when I had left for my current firm whether the culture, pay, progression would be as great and whether I would be good enough to take up the task as I was risking a potential high executive role becoming available down the road. I did end up making the switch the change led to better things for me and a better position at the end of it. I think McLaren making the change will help the team limit the damage and get back to the top. F1 and Finance are quite similar in that it’s a predominantly results driven business and sport.

 

McLaren took the risk with Honda and it didn’t work, it’s worth the time and effort to go to Renault. The 3 years gone are sunk costs and McLaren need to go forward, sometimes a sideways step can lead to Gold. Change to Renault is definitely a sideways step, but it’s better than Honda and does give McLaren opportunities down the road. It’s going to be a long-term investment for McLaren to return to the top and Honda have shown they are not simply up to. It’s understandable some see Honda coming good one day but McLaren cannot afford the PR and Brand damage if it keeps fighting around the bottom and blowing up every race weekend. It’s a paradox situation McLaren is in. 

 

use Renault，they can be on podiums and snatch some lucky win. use Honda,they will never be on the podiums.

[J2NH]

They will be looking at 30-40 million extra in performance payments if they keep Alonso and Renault take a step or two forwards. Podiums should mean interest from sponsors, 60-70 mil is a big ask though.  

 

If McLaren need to build their own engine then maybe Williams should too. Or maybe both teams are just going to die. 

 

As noted, the Column two placement money is closer to 25 million.  Sponsors did not flock to to McLaren with the Honda announcement or when they signed Alonso.  What makes you think McLaren/Renault wold be a sponsor draw?

 

Podiums?  Mercedes, Ferrari, RedBull, Mercedes customer teams, Renault Factory team.  This is a huge leap based on an engine that is arguably 3rd best on the grid.  If Mercedes and Ferrari have a "normal" weekend then the rest are fighting over 4th.  

 

Renault may bring better results than Honda, unless they get their act together, but it is not going to put McLaren on the podium. 

[TF110]

When has McLaren run "too much downforce"? How can you even run too much downforce on a track such as Singapore?

At least Spa and Monza where they were the 'fastest in the corners'  It's easy to run too much downforce, even at Singapore. It's not Monaco, it's a lot faster and a lot longer lap. Running too much downforce can happen on the front or the rear as it upsets the balance of the car. It also has a negative affect on fuel consumption and top speed (the latter isn't a big issue at Singapore but it is at Spa and Monza). It was mostly a joke, but I guess you missed that 

Edited by TF110, 06 September 2017 - 01:23.

[HP]

As noted, the Column two placement money is closer to 25 million.  Sponsors did not flock to to McLaren with the Honda announcement or when they signed Alonso.  What makes you think McLaren/Renault wold be a sponsor draw?

 

Podiums?  Mercedes, Ferrari, RedBull, Mercedes customer teams, Renault Factory team.  This is a huge leap based on an engine that is arguably 3rd best on the grid.  If Mercedes and Ferrari have a "normal" weekend then the rest are fighting over 4th.  

 

Renault may bring better results than Honda, unless they get their act together, but it is not going to put McLaren on the podium. 

It actually may hurt McLaren more in the long run. Red Bull blaming Renault didn't help Red Bull's reputation. The blame on Honda is understandable, but if McLaren is running Renault engines, and McLaren starts saying, 5th is the best we can do. How long will Alonso and the Mclaren fans tolerate that? The first few months things might look upwards, but McLaren and its fans are such ambitious people. And if they don't match Red Bull, then McLaren has to look at things within their team and no scape goat any more. McLaren remaining an also ran team with the occasional shot at a podium, what;s good about that? Ask the loyal Williams fans on this board how they fell about Williams fate. Should McLaren become an also ran team in the mind of F1 drivers can then still attract top drivers?

 

The switch to Renault has to be executed to perfection.

[Alonsofan007]

Mark Hughes  piece on McLaren-Honda-Renault  negotiations. Apparently negotiations are hinging on financial package Honda can give to TR, which Honda is not willing to do.

 

http://www.motorspor...lt-engine-chase

[J2NH]

It actually may hurt McLaren more in the long run. Red Bull blaming Renault didn't help Red Bull's reputation. The blame on Honda is understandable, but if McLaren is running Renault engines, and McLaren starts saying, 5th is the best we can do. How long will Alonso and the Mclaren fans tolerate that? The first few months things might look upwards, but McLaren and its fans are such ambitious people. And if they don't match Red Bull, then McLaren has to look at things within their team and no scape goat any more. McLaren remaining an also ran team with the occasional shot at a podium, what;s good about that? Ask the loyal Williams fans on this board how they fell about Williams fate. Should McLaren become an also ran team in the mind of F1 drivers can then still attract top drivers?

 

The switch to Renault has to be executed to perfection.

 

But how does even the "perfect" switch turn out well for McLaren?  How many years has Red Bull been complaining about the Renault engine?  They think, right or wrong, that they have a great chassis and are limited by the power plant.  I can't see this being any different for McLaren and that is a best case scenario.  

 

Are McLaren this desperate for mediocre results?  

[J2NH]

Mark Hughes  piece on McLaren-Honda-Renault  negotiations. Apparently negotiations are hinging on financial package Honda can give to TR, which Honda is not willing to do.

 

http://www.motorspor...lt-engine-chase

 

Interesting read, thank you.

 

So McLaren ends up writing a check to Torro Rosso so that they can get Renault engine?  This is crazy.  Give up the Honda cash, give up the Honda promise, and then pay money to get a Renault that won't put them on the top step.  Makes no sense.  

[tifosii]

if they still use Honda,alonso will leave,sponsor will leave,top engineer will leave.they will lost everything a top team should enjoy.
Renault engine is just like a life-saving straw for Mclaren.no wonder why Mclaren is so eager to pursue Renault engine.

[hasika]

https://sportiva.shu...lit/index_2.php

 

OK.The qualifying mode bring extra 20kw in qualifying session.

There are also some bench tests in HRD,to find how long they can use it in race.

Anyway,Mclaren-Honda's furture will not change though.

Edited by hasika, 06 September 2017 - 02:28.

[tifosii]

use Renault, they can be allowed to push to make chassis good enough to match Redbull,i am sure 4th fastest at least.
with good development,they can fight against redbull for 3rd fastest car.win and podiums are both expectable if top teams bottle,and this is defined as mediocre result？
ditch Honda,use Renault for Mclaren is just like finally a prisoner finish his sentence，walk away from the jail，have a breath of fresh air. the whole team will be motivated,they can fight again.

[rodlamas]

Please check the onboard highlights and see how Palmer overtakes Alonso through Curva Grande before the chicanekarmagate.

You would take a Renault PU 3 days before.

[baddog]

Please check the onboard highlights and see how Palmer overtakes Alonso through Curva Grande before the chicanekarmagate.

You would take a Renault PU 3 days before.

 

Vandoorne was easily able to keep up with both factory Renaults and the Torro Rosso. On the straights. With a higher DF package than the Torro Rosso (according to TR driver).

 

Honda has been a disaster but lets not just make stuff up, clearly they have made up a lot of ground in outright power, albeit with major reliability issues.

 

I understand changing.. Mclaren see where Redbull are and think/hope they could do the same. Im not sure I wouldnt do the same, but it is not even close to certain they will be a huge amount better off.

[Alonsofan007]

Please check the onboard highlights and see how Palmer overtakes Alonso through Curva Grande before the chicanekarmagate.

You would take a Renault PU 3 days before.

ya that was embarrassing, McLaren starts harvesting at the exit and palmer catches alonso very fast.

[hasika]

ya that was embarrassing, McLaren starts harvesting at the exit and palmer catches alonso very fast.

But alonso had gearbox issue.Without it,palmer had no chance to catch him.

[Alonsofan007]

But alonso had gearbox issue.Without it,palmer had no chance to catch him.

that is probably contributing factor for palmer closing in fast, but you can also see rear-light blinking as car started harvesting at exit of curve-grande

[kumo7]

Interesting read, thank you.

 

So McLaren ends up writing a check to Torro Rosso so that they can get Renault engine?  This is crazy.  Give up the Honda cash, give up the Honda promise, and then pay money to get a Renault that won't put them on the top step.  Makes no sense.  

 

Honda actually can do the followig, IMHO.

 

Divorce McLaren, reject TR, start own team then Honda is still in the '(lottery) race' to supply McLaren. Now this will be the mad situation for McLaren.

 

McLaren got 3/4 chance to get power unit other than Honda. In case if McLaren get Honda? Well you know what Honda then can do.

 

But what is the interest of Honda? Do Formula 1?

Then I say build on chassis with the equal financial mustle that paid McLaren said 90 mil.

[hasika]

that is probably contributing factor for palmer closing in fast, but you can also see rear-light blinking as car started harvesting at exit of curve-grande

No,i dont think its not the main reason why palmer catched him.I think it must be the gearbox problem.

Look at Vandoorne,he was quicker than both Toro Rosso and Hass before DNF.

At the start of race,Alonso had almost same pace sa Vandoorne.

But soon,his lap time dropped seriously for some reason,at least 1s slower per lap compared to Vandoorne,and then catched by palmer.

When i watched the TV,i realized there must be something not right in his car.And i was right and it turns out to be a gearbox issue.

[HP]

if they still use Honda,alonso will leave,sponsor will leave,top engineer will leave.they will lost everything a top team should enjoy.
Renault engine is just like a life-saving straw for Mclaren.no wonder why Mclaren is so eager to pursue Renault engine.

Deep breath.. I am preparing to hide from a **** storm:

 

What if - for just a tiny second - you consider that McLaren right now is not a top team any more.

 

Top engineers, Alonso and Button, sponsorship money didn't help much the past few years. At best McLaren would be back where they were before the alliance with Honda started. And that wasn't the place were they wanted to be either. Hence Ron Dennis ousted Martin Whitmarsh, After Dennis changed things and pinned the fateful contract with Honda, Ron Dennis was ousted himself.

 

The only thing that can be said right now there is that things can't get much worse and the way should point up. That's not a short term route to be a top team however. Notice how long it took Mercedes to get to the top, and they have far bigger resources behind them than McLaren. Other manufacturers failed. Just to start: Mercedes doesn't need sponsors They build engine and chassis themselves. McLaren, like it or not are dependent on engine manufacturers. Also Ron Dennis belief that Honda can build a top engine got them into this situation. It's not the first time that McLaren and quite a number of other teams fate depended on the engine. Clue, what happened with Honda might happen again with someone else.

 

IMO the prudent thing for McLaren's is to consider their current position as an F1 team. Name it what their teams position is and not where they wish it to be like, not basking in past glory, or where they aspire to be in a few years time. And then as a team move forwards step by step and avoid any kind of assumption of their team's greatness. Greatness has to be earned, and needs to be maintained, Look at the tech world and see how it works. Just for starters 2 names Blackberry, Nokia. They were great, but now.. Any tech company sitting on the cutting edge of technology has a very precarious position and McLaren isn't the exception by some kind of wishful thinking.

 

Taking my hat now...

[HP]

ya that was embarrassing, McLaren starts harvesting at the exit and palmer catches alonso very fast.

Spa showed that the harvesting software is poorly designed. Alonso taking a corner flat, and the electronics gets confused.. Yikes! There is not much reason to think that these types of issues get solved in the time between Spa and Monza. Their entire approach looks as if it needs to be changed, No way to solve such issues in a week.

[blacky]

Vandoorne was easily able to keep up with both factory Renaults and the Torro Rosso. On the straights. With a higher DF package than the Torro Rosso (according to TR driver).

 

It's a bit more complicated I guess.

 

RBR is famous for having a lot of rear downforce the last years. Why? I don't know. Diffusor or floor? So it works for them to drive with skinny rear wings but having still an acceptable amount of DF. McLaren generates less DF and STR even less. McLaren tried the low DF configuration in Spa on Friday and in the race, obviously it didn't work out. It costs them too much lap time overall. Don't know what STR did in Spa. In Monza McLaren tried the low DF configuration again, but not in the race. STR however did it and obviously it didn't work out for them too. McLaren had simply more pace and with the tow (big effect) and DRS at start finish line it's not uncommon to keep up with cars in front.

Edited by blacky, 06 September 2017 - 06:46.

[messy]

For the life of me I fail to see how McLaren dumping Honda for Renault engines has that much of an upside.  

 

Money.  Honda provides McLaren with 100 million dollars.  Are sponsors going to make that up if the team becomes McLaren/Renault?  Can't see it.  Neither is moving up a couple of spots in the team standings going to make up for this either.

 

Results.  Mercedes, Ferrari, Mercedes powered teams, Renault, RedBull, McLaren.  Renault may improve in the off season but so will Mercedes and Ferrari.  It's doubtful that they will match the top two.  So McLaren fights for top 10 finishes against better powered Mercedes customer teams, Redbull and factory Renault.  And those Renault teams know the engine, it's characteristics, pros and cons.

 

McLaren is a team that plays to win, not get top 10's.  Honda offers that potential.  Renault offers safe finishes.  With what Honda has invested and it's willingness to recommit after all of the humiliating failures it seems that this, at least until the next engine formula, offers the biggest chance of getting McLaren back to the top step.

 

No doubt there are details that no one is aware of but from way on the outside looking in, Honda is McLaren's best opportunity to win.

 

In the long run McLaren is going to end up needing to build their own engine if they want to fully control their own destiny.  

 

I've never been a huge McLaren fan but always respected the team, like Williams during their down years it pains me to see this icon begging for table scraps.

 

 

It gets them away from Honda, which has become a sad sh*tshow. I think ultimately in the short-medium term, that's probably enough. Moving to Renault power would put them finally back on a level footing in terms of PU with teams like Red Bull and Renault, would mean that they're not getting swamped down the straights and would give them an opportunity to concentrate on the performance of the car. It would also probably be enough to keep hold of Alonso. 

 

Honda have failed. Like really, badly, spectacularly, embarrassingly failed. From McLaren's point of view, they've been quite patient with them and have had three years of being absolutely nowhere. The only reason thy almost hit respectability in 2016 was because Alonso was brilliant. Button didn't do much. For all they weren't great in 2013 and 2014, they scored points in most races, got a couple of podiums....they'd kill for that now I bet. 

 

There's only so long you can be humiliated.

[Hawkinsk11]

Thanks for clarifying. I clearly did not understand the whole process correctly.

.

I wouldn't be concerned about any of these regulations. We are in deal making territory here. It's not about regs. It's about trying to protect stakeholders in s sport that needs as many as it can get at the moment. The sport needs mclaren back and it really needs Honda. A regs that get in the way will be ignored

[Gary Davies]

If, as it seems, McLaren wants to move to Renault power, I can only see it as a short term strategy to give them some respectability as long as the current regulations apply.

The 'you need to be a works team' argument still applies so surely, McLaren will be doing all it can to secure a 'works' relationship with a PU manufacturer (other than Mercedes or Ferrari, obviously) and/or facilitate the likes of Cosworth to reenter F1 from 2020/2021 onwards with what is expected to be somewhat less complex and expensive regulations.

[Thanatos]

I just don't get why Red Bull Group would sacrifice the scoring potential of STR for McLaren

[kumo7]

Simply put, it is because RBR has issues with Renault engine.

Honda might be good.

If Honda pays for TR7s running cost and supply engine for free, then financially it is OK for RB.

In due time RBR has works engine.

 

Hind site for RBR is that Honda peak might never come.

Issue for Honda is that they do not see the value of such co-lab.

 

 

There isn't much over.

Honda and McLaren both failed to make the three year plan work.

(Or what ever years period it was projected I do not know)

 

 

Honda to start own team, with customer chassis from McLaren for free 2018.

McLaren to sort out their engine with FIA.

[Rinehart]

That ship has sailed in June AFAIK.

 

I think that theory would be tested if McLaren were otherwise genuinely without an engine for 2018...

[sweeps]

If I understand the published numbers correctly - and I do not presume that I necessarily do - the Constructors' performance payments of which you speak are the so-called "Column 2" payments, and the difference between 9th place and 4th place is roughly $25m/yr.

 

I'm comparing to Red Bull (renault engine)  21 million on Col 2 and 9 million on CCB  that's 30 million which is why I went for 30 million.. McLaren are up 18% part due to the way Alonso dragged the car around which is why I then went for 30-40 million if they beat Redbull. 

Edited by sweeps, 06 September 2017 - 08:49.

[Rinehart]

I love Ron with all my heart, but even I understand that a veteran like Ron Dennis is part of the reason we are stuck in this precarious situation.

I don't think anyone at McLaren can be blamed for NOT having the foresight to see that the world's largest engine manufacturer, with a history of past success in all forms of motorsport, with a huge budget, huge resources, 10 years of works partnership funding, time to become competitive and the opportunity to recruit, understand, copy, test and improve upon the already launched V6 Hybrids... would fail so badly. There is nothing other than the benefit of hindsight and a pointless need to blame for the sake of it. What arguement would Martin Whitmarsh have had to convince the McLaren board NOT to sign off the deal?!!! 

[peroa]

I think that theory would be tested if McLaren were otherwise genuinely without an engine for 2018...

If you look at RBR who where in a similar situation ...

[dau]

I just don't get why Red Bull Group would sacrifice the scoring potential of STR for McLaren

Why would Red Bull care about STR scoring or not? They only need them to evaluate drivers against each other, it doesn't matter whether they'll fight for points or not.

[sweeps]

As noted, the Column two placement money is closer to 25 million.  Sponsors did not flock to to McLaren with the Honda announcement or when they signed Alonso.  What makes you think McLaren/Renault wold be a sponsor draw?

 

Podiums?  Mercedes, Ferrari, RedBull, Mercedes customer teams, Renault Factory team.  This is a huge leap based on an engine that is arguably 3rd best on the grid.  If Mercedes and Ferrari have a "normal" weekend then the rest are fighting over 4th.  

 

Renault may bring better results than Honda, unless they get their act together, but it is not going to put McLaren on the podium. 

 

 

I never claimed that McLaren would make more money if both Ferrari and Merc had perfect weekends and they don't anyway so why make it a point.

 

Col 2 is 21 million CCB is 9 milion comapred to Red Bul with a Renault engine. That's 30 million difference.  The overall difference is 64 million. I know Alonso drags slower cars around better than even pundits expect (McLaren up 18% on payments) (also see the latter half of 2008 in the 90HP deficit Renault, beating Lewis too)

 

 

I'll stick with Alonso making podiums "If renault make a step or Two forwards" and McLaren making 30-40 million more money.  Maybe Honda will make a giant leap, but all people here have to offer is the same rose tinted glasses than Ron Dennis gave to Alonso and all that 80s turbo era hype when they beat Judds and Fords. 

Edited by sweeps, 06 September 2017 - 08:53.

[sopa]

I just don't get why Red Bull Group would sacrifice the scoring potential of STR for McLaren

 

Horner has also said they wouldn't veto McLaren in a way Dennis vetoed them in 2015.

 

Well, the main reason I can think of is... Red Bull doesn't fear McLaren. At least not to the extent that they would be able to beat them. Run close, yeah, maybe. But Red Bull probably calculates that McLaren is done as a top team and as an underfunded privateer with a Renault PU is going to lag behind.

 

Red Bull sacrificing the scoring potential of STR is of course another matter. The main reason I can think of is that they want to get rid of or minimize the running costs of the team. In short - get rid of the team, even if not through a successful sale. Based on rumours Red Bull's condition is that Honda has to pay at least some of the costs of STR. And obviously give free PU's.

 

Red Bull wouldn't directly veto McLaren, but they sure have their own interests in these negotiations and are up to it if they get a good financial deal out of it.

[SenorSjon]

I think that theory would be tested if McLaren were otherwise genuinely without an engine for 2018...

 

They have, they have a Honda contract. That they don't want it anymore is something different.

 

Why would Red Bull care about STR scoring or not? They only need them to evaluate drivers against each other, it doesn't matter whether they'll fight for points or not.

 

Well, they also train and test engineers at TR. I still think that James Key is being groomed for Red Bull in the not so distant future. Anyhow, they can compare both Honda and Renault and the TR guys know how a Ferrari and Renault unit works and fits. That knowledge isn't present at McLaren. 

 

Allegedly, Red Bull asked the same amount of money from Honda they are paying now to McLaren. Honda doesn't want that, so Red Bull proposed that McLaren fills the gap. Of course no one thinks this will actually happen, but if TR gets a works status with only half (50m) shoved their way, that team suddenly has a much bigger budget with free engines. 

[DeKnyff]

As noted, the Column two placement money is closer to 25 million.  Sponsors did not flock to to McLaren with the Honda announcement or when they signed Alonso.  What makes you think McLaren/Renault wold be a sponsor draw?

 

Podiums?  Mercedes, Ferrari, RedBull, Mercedes customer teams, Renault Factory team.  This is a huge leap based on an engine that is arguably 3rd best on the grid.  If Mercedes and Ferrari have a "normal" weekend then the rest are fighting over 4th.  

 

Renault may bring better results than Honda, unless they get their act together, but it is not going to put McLaren on the podium. 

 

What makes me think McLaren-Renault could draw more sponsoring money that McLaren-Honda did at its beginning, is that McLaren is now managed by the more commercially-minded Zak Brown. Not criticising Ron Dennis, of course, his accomplishments have been huge, but he looks more like a technical and strategical manager than like a salesman (remember that "title sponsors are a thing of the past" and all that?).

Edited by DeKnyff, 06 September 2017 - 09:00.

[J2NH]

What makes me think McLaren-Renault could draw more sponsoring money that McLaren-Honda did at its beginning, is that McLaren is now managed by the more commercially-minded Zak Brown. Not criticising Ron Dennis, of course, his accomplishments have been huge, but he looks more like a technical and strategical manager than like a salesman (remember that "title sponsors are a thing of the past" and all that?).

 

I do remember Ron's words.  

But is McLaren/Renault that much more of a magnet than McLaren/Honda?  If yes it can't be much.  Lots of opportunities in Japan for sponsorship if that kind of sponsorship still exists.

[J2NH]

I never claimed that McLaren would make more money if both Ferrari and Merc had perfect weekends and they don't anyway so why make it a point.

 

Col 2 is 21 million CCB is 9 milion comapred to Red Bul with a Renault engine. That's 30 million difference.  The overall difference is 64 million. I know Alonso drags slower cars around better than even pundits expect (McLaren up 18% on payments) (also see the latter half of 2008 in the 90HP deficit Renault, beating Lewis too)

 

 

I'll stick with Alonso making podiums "If renault make a step or Two forwards" and McLaren making 30-40 million more money.  Maybe Honda will make a giant leap, but all people here have to offer is the same rose tinted glasses than Ron Dennis gave to Alonso and all that 80s turbo era hype when they beat Judds and Fords. 

 

 

But who is to say that Alonso will make podiums?  That is a massive leap of faith.  Renault makes a large step forward and McLaren develops a car that can challenge Red Bull.  Giving up the resources of Honda and the stability of a long term exclusive contract for a lot of "maybe's just doesn't seem worth it to me.  

 

Again, if it was up to me I would play for the home run/strikeout with Honda vs the midfield with Renault.  Play to win.

[Lennat]

I would be less surprised if Renault made a properly good engine than Honda. 

 

The "works" thing is overblown, Brawn won with a customer Merc, Red Bull won with customer Renaults. History suggests that a proper top car with a GOOD customer engine can indeed win championships.

[McLobby]

Supportive words from Ricciardo
 

 

"So I think if they put in a Renault engine or anything else, they will automatically be faster because the car itself looks very good.

"They should be stronger next year," the Australian added.

Alonso suffering

Ricciardo also said he feels for Fernando Alonso - renowned as one of the best drivers in F1 but crippled by the McLaren-Honda crisis since 2015.

He added: "I really like Fernando and respect him a lot as a driver.

"I would like to see him suffering less on the track and in a top car.  It would be great to have him as a teammate one day - him or Hamilton.  I'd love that."

http://www.wheels24....ciardo-20170906

[Clatter]

if they still use Honda,alonso will leave,sponsor will leave,top engineer will leave.they will lost everything a top team should enjoy.
Renault engine is just like a life-saving straw for Mclaren.no wonder why Mclaren is so eager to pursue Renault engine.

Got any actual proof those things will happen? Alonso might decide he has had enough, but that is not a good reason to swap manufacturer's.

[Clatter]

I would be less surprised if Renault made a properly good engine than Honda.

The "works" thing is overblown, Brawn won with a customer Merc, Red Bull won with customer Renaults. History suggests that a proper top car with a GOOD customer engine can indeed win championships.

It's rare that a customer team wins when there is a works team in play.

[HPT]

While McLaren is placed last or second last, they are being confined to not just small pit garages but also only 2 instead of 3 for those at the sharp end. I've been in Sepang and Singapore pit walks a couple of times and I can tell you that those small garages where everything is cramped together is a few worlds away from the shiny, spacious and glamorous garages that the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull use. For most sponsors, formula 1 is as much about glitz and glamour as it is about a platform to showcase their brand and I don't think a brand like Hugo Boss would like to bring their bosses or customers to a McLaren garage these days. I imagine it will be a lot more challenging in securing quality sponsors while the team is stuck down there. Without sponsors they won't have the budget to move up the grid and so start to spiral downward from there.

[HPT]

I would be less surprised if Renault made a properly good engine than Honda. 

 

The "works" thing is overblown, Brawn won with a customer Merc, Red Bull won with customer Renaults. History suggests that a proper top car with a GOOD customer engine can indeed win championships.

 

Fully agreed. The days of customer teams not being able to win were the days before the current engine rules came into play. Sauber were getting year-old Ferrari engines back in the days of V8 and V10. Now Mercedes customers are getting the same spec engines with only a few races behind the works team.

[DeKnyff]

I do remember Ron's words.  

But is McLaren/Renault that much more of a magnet than McLaren/Honda?  If yes it can't be much.  Lots of opportunities in Japan for sponsorship if that kind of sponsorship still exists.

 

McLaren-Renault, at least, doesn't have a past.