159 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

With Alonso currently being up before the bench to answer steward questions about whether he should have got out of the way of the battling leaders, it is over to you. Should he have moved over quicker? Was it feasible? Does it make a difference he was running his own race?

[robefc]

With Alonso currently being up before the bench to answer steward questions about whether he should have got out of the way of the battling leaders, it is over to you. Should he have moved over quicker? Was it feasible? Does it make a difference he was running his own race?

 

I know I was very happy when he cut back in front of Max!

 

I think it looks worse because it's last lap and the leaders were so close but my opinion on blue flags is the drivers should do more to get out of the way straight away because they are  2 or 3 miles behind, I don't care whether they are racing for position or whatever at the time, their battle is not as important as the battle ahead of them.

[AustinF1]

Max had already slotted in behind Alonso when Alonso got back on the racing line. Then he let Max by asap right after that. 

[AustinF1]

Max just said the only reason he closed up was because of the traffic, and he didn't think he could have passed Lewis even without the traffic. He says he never at any point thought he could win this race.

[Sarkis]

No problem with Alonso Vs Max, got out of the way when he could according to the laws of physics. Couldn't see if he impeded Lewis more.

Massa Vs Max on the other hand was grounds for a penalty IMO, cost Max well over a second by just staying in front for more than a full sector. Then again, that's the third time he's been interfering with a final lap battle for the lead this year, and at least fourth race in a row he's been doing stupid stuff during the race.
Yet somehow the stewards still seem hellbent to just penalize the young drivers...

Edited by Sarkis, 08 October 2017 - 07:42.

[AustinF1]

Yeah should there be a poll for Massa v Max? (No, I'm not biting that bullet this time) 

[SenorSjon]

Massa and Max or no friends and it showed again. Massa was taking an awful lot of time. I remember Verstappen get a blue flag penalty for less than this.

[Disgrace]

You should have watched the F2 feature race yesterday. Two lapped cars on fresh tyres spent about five or six laps amongst the lead pack, neither yielding nor overtaking the cars in front but occasionally forcing the guy in second to defend. Not a single blue flag. Never seen anything like it.

[Risil]

You should have watched the F2 feature race yesterday. Two lapped cars on fresh tyres spent about five or six laps amongst the lead pack, neither yielding nor overtaking the cars in front but occasionally forcing the guy in second to defend. Not a single blue flag. Never seen anything like it.

 

Maybe they were testing a more Indycar-style blue flag rule away from the glare of the full F1 paddock. You heard it here first.

[AustinF1]

^Interesting. It was just a shame they all came together & ruined both Max's & Lewis's chances at a finishing battle and Alonso's & Massa's as well. Personally I've never been crazy about blue flags  on cars that are also fighting for position as well, esp for points.

[jstrains]

Massa was awful letting Max pass...

[AustinF1]

Yep. And did he even get investigated?

[baddog]

Two races in a row, time to put the hammer down there.

[AustinF1]

^Massa?

[Auzz]

Voted yes. Although I appreciate he is fighting with Massa. In that slow hairpin he could easily let Max past. Was it race critical. I don’t know, however my yes is also fuelled by his behavior in Malaysia.

[efuloni]

Massa and Max or no friends and it showed again. Massa was taking an awful lot of time. I remember Verstappen get a blue flag penalty for less than this.

 

I saw them playing and laughing together in an airplaine a few weeks ago on instagram...  

[AustinF1]

Voted yes. Although I appreciate he is fighting with Massa. In that slow hairpin he could easily let Max past. Was it race critical. I don’t know, however my yes is also fuelled by his behavior in Malaysia.

What behavior in Malaysia? Seems like a weird way to decide how to vote in this poll.

[Kraken]

Personally I think blue flags should be withdrawn completely. Getting past slower cars is all part of it. Yes I know there are circumstances where a fast car can be a lap down and in position to hold others up but with SC etc that car could get back into the fight later on and besides it's supposed to be entertainment.

[Auzz]

What behavior in Malaysia? Seems like a weird way to decide how to vote in this poll.

By holding Vettel up when he was fighting for P3. Since there is repeated behavior I find it very relevant.

[Nonesuch]

Alonso was fine. Massa was a bit slow, but the effect was probably exaggerated by the situation. Any other point in the race and it wouldn't have been an issue.

Blue flags are always a bit tough at Suzuka, anyway.

[AustinF1]

So who was hurt by the traffic situation?

 

Max? He says his result wasn't damaged & he was not going to win this race regardless.

Lewis? He won the race.

Massa? He won the battle with Alonso for the final point. If anyone should be under investigation, it should be him. He only kept his point because Alonso moved over & he didn't throughout S1.

Alonso? He gave up his battle with Massa and any chance for a point when he had to let those guys by.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2017 - 08:49.

[SPBHM]

Hamilton was struggling a little anyway, Alonso and Massa were fighting for the point,

Verstappen got behind Massa in a worse place on the track for passing than Hamilton.

[Auzz]

So who was hurt by the traffic situation?[/size]
 
Max? He says his result wasn't damaged & he was not going to win this race regardless.
Lewis? He won the race.
Massa? He won the battle with Alonso for the final point. If anyone should be under investigation, it should be him. He only kept his point because Alonso moved over & he didn't throughout S1.
Alonso? He gave up his battle with Massa and any chance for a point when he had to let those guys by.

True that Max said that. But being in someones gearbox in the last lap puts more pressure on the leading driver that not. I’m not saying Lewis would choke, but it took away the pressure.

[quickndirty]

Dirty driver comes to mind.

[AustinF1]

By holding Vettel up when he was fighting for P3. Since there is repeated behavior I find it very relevant.

LOL. As Hobbs said at the time, you can't just expect Alonso to just "Magic" himself off the track.

[AustinF1]

Dirty driver comes to mind.

Alonso a dirty driver? You guys are getting desperate. Alonso is one of the cleanest-racing drivers on the grid.

[AustinF1]

 

"I could see Lewis managing his tyres and, with traffic, it seemed difficult for him to follow other cars compared to me," Verstappen recalled.

 

"When you close up, you lose a lot of downforce. I couldn't really attack him, but I tried."

 

Asked whether losing time behind Alonso cost him the win, he said: "It didn't help, but it was more last lap with Massa.

 

"But I don't think I could get past Lewis, I could close up. It was not ideal but it wouldn't have made a difference."

...

 

Alonso, who was summoned to the stewards after the race over "ignoring blue flags", said he did his best not to interfere in the victory battle.

 

However, he also noted that he would accept whatever ruling the stewards reached, the Spaniard having finished outside of the points in 11th.

 

"They can do whatever they want. I don't have points anyway," Alonso said.

 

"I tried not to bother anyone. They [Hamilton and Verstappen] were first and second with two laps to go and they finished first and second so I don't think it was determinant for the race.

 

"But whatever they say, we'll accept it."

 

https://www.motorspo...traffic-963072/

Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2017 - 08:53.

[sopa]

It is a real pain for a backmarker to let a driver through in the first sector of Suzuka, unless he completely pulls aside. A dilemma I guess, how to treat it.

 

However, according to regulations you should move over within 3 (?) corners?

Edited by sopa, 08 October 2017 - 08:53.

[ckolcz]

Alonso a dirty driver? You guys are getting desperate. Alonso is one of the cleanest-racing drivers on the grid.

Might be, but I feel he's still very salty towards Vettel. It doesn't get more blatant than his block on Vettel in Malaysia.

 

 

I tend to agree that today he really had nowhere to go and Massa hampered Verstappen's charge more, but I can't defend his behaviour in Malaysia.

Edited by juliuscaesar, 08 October 2017 - 08:59.

[AustinF1]

Might be, but I feel he's still very salty towards Vettel. It doesn't get more blatant than his block on Vettel in Malaysia.

 

So he should've just gone straight then? If you actually look closer, he left Vettel more than a car-width of room on the inside almost all the way around 1. Vettel just didn't attack it. Had he done so, there would have been little for Alonso to do in defense.

 

Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2017 - 09:08.

[geralt]

After seeing Max's onboard, I don't think anybody could sincerely put any blame on Alonso.

[ckolcz]

So he should've just gone straight then?

Should have stayed on the outside 2 seconds longer perhaps, as many lapped drivers before him did in Sepang.

[quickndirty]

He ruined it for Vettel and he ruined it for Verstappen. He has shown himself to be a driver with close to no respect for others around him.

[P123]

I vote 'no'. He was in his own fight, but Hamilton himself at that stage was struggling with the fronts, so wasn't really harassing the tale of Alonso. Alonso let him by at the hairpin, and then Max further down the next straight. Maybe technically he passed too many blue flags, but we'eve seen a lot worse. Massa was less helpful.

[ckolcz]

So he should've just gone straight then? If you actually look closer, he left Vettel more than a car-width of room on the inside all the way around 1. Vettel just didn't attack it. Had he done so, there would have been little for Alonso to do in defense.

 

I fear had he gone for it and attacked Alonso, they would have crashed. The gap was closing all the time.

To me, Fred should have just stayed on the outside a little bit longer and tuck in behind the Ferrari. No harm done to anyone.

Edited by juliuscaesar, 08 October 2017 - 09:11.

[Danyy]

He ruined it for Vettel and he ruined it for Verstappen. He has shown himself to be a driver with close to no respect for others around him.[/size]

I can’t find any races this year Alonso has “ruined” for anyone so I assume your talking about Vettel taking himself and three other drivers including Alonso out of the Singapore gp.

Edited by Danyy, 08 October 2017 - 09:13.

[AustinF1]

I fear had he gone for it and attacked Alonso, they would have crashed. The gap was closing all the time.

It wasn't, actually, if you look at the video I posted. Alonso maintained more than a car width until right at the end of 1 when he closed it only slightly when switching directions to enter 2. But at that point, with Vettel not attacking or alongside him at all, there was no reason for him not to. Alonso consistently gives room with cars beside him.

[AustinF1]

He ruined it for Vettel and he ruined it for Verstappen. He has shown himself to be a driver with close to no respect for others around him.

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted on this forum, and that takes some doing.

[AustinF1]

Should have stayed on the outside 2 seconds longer perhaps, as many lapped drivers before him did in Sepang.

He stayed on the outside of 1 all the way until he had to turn in for 2.

[ckolcz]

It wasn't, actually, if you look at the video I posted. Alonso maintained more than a car width until right at the end of 1 when he closed it only slightly when switching directions to enter 2. But at that point, with Vettel not attacking or alongside him at all, there was no reason for him not to. Alonso consistently gives room with cars beside him.

Not how I see this, but that's why we have the forum

 

Have a nice day

[kosmos]

This poll must be:

 

Do you like Alonso?.

 

Yes or No.

 

Because I don't understand how can anyone say he did something wrong after watching the clip and Max's comments.

[Marklar]

Andrew Benson‏Verified account @andrewbensonf1  1m1 minute ago

More

A reprimand and two penalty points for Alonso for ignoring blue flags. Noted mitigation that it’s hard to let people pass at Suzuka

Edited by Marklar, 08 October 2017 - 09:20.

[AustinF1]

Not how I see this, but that's why we have the forum

 

Have a nice day

Did you take an objective look at the video I posted? The closest Alonso ever got to the inside kerb was about 1/2 of a car width, and then only for a fraction of a second at the very end of 1 at the transition to enter 2. Prior to that he left well more than a car width.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2017 - 09:22.

[kosmos]

 

Andrew Benson‏Verified account @andrewbensonf1  1m1 minute ago

More

A reprimand and two penalty points for Alonso for ignoring blue flags. Noted mitigation that it’s hard to let people pass at Suzuka

 

 

They give him a reprimand for this a not for the Vettel incident?

[ckolcz]

Did you take an objective look at the video I posted?

Yes I did, To me Vettel is glued to the kerb and Alonso cuts in in front of the Ferrari.

 

Had Vettel been level with Alonso in turn 1, in the space you say he left for Vettel, I think they would have at least banged tires. I don't think that's a textboox blue flag pass, to barely squeeze by.

[redreni]

My understanding of the rules is you're supposed to move over at the first opportunity after you are shown the blue flag and interpretation/enforcement is on the basis that if you pass more than two signalling posts that are showing blue flags/lights without letting anybody past, then Race Control will assume you didn't move over at the first opportunity and you'll be pulled up for it.

 

I can't see a stewards' decision on fia.com yet and I didn't see enough on telly to form an opinion on whether Alonso broke the rules. EDIT: Like everyone else, I've now seen the decision and I'm not arguing with it.

 

The question is worded in terms of right and wrong, though, rather than legal or illegal. I must say I don't approve of blue flag enforcement at all, nor do I think drivers are under any moral obligation to jump out of the way for the leaders when they come up to them to lap them.

 

I genuinely think blue flag enforcement enables technical development to go in directions that damage the sport and worsen the racing. If there had been no blue flag enforcement this year, Monaco would have been a considerably slower procession than usual, because from about lap 20 onwards the leaders would have been stacked up behind the backmarkers and would have remained there for the duration.

 

I accept that would be a farce but I don't accept that the FIA ought to be doing anything to prevent such farcical situations. Enforced blue flags treat the symptom in a way that allows the root cause of the issue - excessive aero sensitivity - to be ignored by designers. No designer will give up ultimate pace in order to make a car that is better in traffic if the traffic is required by regulation to jump out of the way.

 

The FIA should tell the teams that it expects the leading cars to be able, at all tracks including Monaco, to pass backmarkers without assistance from Race Control. Then let the designers chew their pencils and get to work on the problem ready for next year.

Edited by redreni, 08 October 2017 - 15:16.

[Clrnc]

Massa hindered Max more than Alonso did. FIA is ridiculous.

 

Also, in Malaysia because of Vettel's hesitant, Alonso lost more than 2s to slow down and let him past. 

[AustinF1]

Yes I did, To me Vettel is glued to the kerb and Alonso cuts in in front of the Ferrari.

 

Had Vettel been level with Alonso in turn 1, in the space you say he left for Vettel, I think they would have at least banged tires. I don't think that's a textboox blue flag pass, to barely squeeze by.

Were there blue flags there? Alonso was about 1.5 car lengths clear of the Ferrari when he closed the space a bit to the kerb.  Vettel wasn't there, so he had no reason not to.  He didn't chop Vettel, and we can't assume he'd have closed the space the same way had Vettel attacked. Also, had Alonso stayed any further outside or for any longer, he'd have had to practically come to a stop to make T2, and then we'd hear cries that Alonso balked Vettel. Vettel crying about it was beyond ridiculous, but to be fair pretty much every driver out there has had a few of those kinds of moments.

 

ETA: And I just looked at my watch & realized it's 4:40am here in Austin. I must be crazy to stay up this late. I'm out. Adios!

Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2017 - 09:42.

[quickndirty]

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted on this forum, and that takes some doing.

My statement was an exaggeration, but the tendency is clear. Alonso is a fantastic race driver, but he also appear rather arrogant on track as well as off track. In today’s race, he should have moved aside.

Edited by quickndirty, 08 October 2017 - 09:33.

[sopa]

The issue is that with these new aero regulations it is hard to overtake. At Monaco drivers could barely get within 1 second of a lapped car. So yeah, backmarkers should be more willing to move over from that point of view.