Regenmeister! Drivers who excelled in the rain
#1
Posted 02 May 2001 - 13:05
Here are a few rainmasters - my top of the head list, probably incomplete because it’s been a long day, and no doubt different from yours - Carraciola, Nuvolari, Fangio, Ascari, Gonzalez, Moss, Clark, Ickx, Stewart, Peterson, Villeneuve G, Senna, Schumacher M.
But isn't this just a list of the best of the best? In other words, is not “rainmaster” merely a synonym for the drivers with that exquisite touch and sense of balance that is not always so clearly defined compared to les autres when the weather is fine.
There are apparent contradictions. Prost; surely a Great, but perhaps too contemplative of the many issues wet driving involves. And Mansell; perhaps not quite of the very top drawer, but brave and hugely combative rain or shine.
So are there any true rainmasters? Guys who whilst not quite on a par with the Mosses and Sennas in the normal course of events, but who blossomed when the track got dark and shiny?
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#2
Posted 02 May 2001 - 14:31
#3
Posted 02 May 2001 - 15:03
As does the discussion, in the same report, that Surtees had the less tractable engine. Clark drove past and away when the circuit dried, however.
I've seen a local driver pull out half a lap in three laps in the wet in his Mazda station wagon, by the way, with about the same power but less refinement than the RX3 that was coming second...
#4
Posted 02 May 2001 - 18:30
Or did I just make it up......
#5
Posted 02 May 2001 - 23:26
He said that he let people believe he liked racing in the rain, but I think it was in All But My Life he disclosed that he - as you have put it - merely had less of a distaste for it than others.
#6
Posted 03 May 2001 - 08:55
#7
Posted 03 May 2001 - 11:05
Actually, Damon always seemed pretty good in the rain and occasionally, as above, very good.
#8
Posted 03 May 2001 - 11:56
#9
Posted 03 May 2001 - 16:40
#10
Posted 03 May 2001 - 17:00
In the late eighties one of the TV networks in the States has some sporadic, same weekend coverage of the Le Mans race. They said that Stuck's rival teams feared rain most of all, becasuse they knew that Hans would make up four seconds a lap on them in the rain.
Wouldn't Pedro Rodriguez also make the criteria? A close second to Ickx at Zandvroot in '71...didn't he also win a very wet BOAC 500 on year, as well as some other rain victories in the 917?
D.
#11
Posted 03 May 2001 - 17:48
Originally posted by Dave Ware
JPB won one wet non-championship race that I know of.
Which one?
Certainly I remember being at Monaco on 14 May 1972 when J-PB won the GP by 38.6 secs from the acknowledged wet weather expert Jacky Ickx. Such was his pace from the start (from 4th on the grid) that some of us were convinced that Ferrari had put Ickx on intermediates. Those were the only two on the same lap at the finish.
The Rodriguez BOAC win was the 1000km at Brands in 1970. The finest race I've ever witnessed. After a black flagging and an ear-bashing from the clerk of the course Pedro proceeded to put in a drive which made us forget the intense rain and numbing cold. After six and threequarter hours Pedro and co-driver Kinnunen in their Porsche 917 were five laps ahead of second placed Elford/Hulme in another 917.
#12
Posted 03 May 2001 - 18:04
Originally posted by Dave Ware
Rob Walker always rated JP Beltoise pretty highly, and felt that one reason he seemingly performed better in the rain was because wet-weather driving made less phyiscal demands on his bad arm, which had been injured in a motorcycle accident.
The Team Lotus mechanics thought basically the same thing about Satoru Nakajima. The Japanese set the fastest lap on his way to fourth at Adelaide in 1989, arguably his best F1 performance. They said the rain made it easier for him because he lacked upper-body strength.
#13
Posted 03 May 2001 - 18:45
What would interest me, if there was to be a rain race of all times, what would it be like? Senna and Villeneuve wheel to wheel chasing Carraciola?
#14
Posted 03 May 2001 - 19:10
Sorry!
#15
Posted 03 May 2001 - 19:16
#16
Posted 04 May 2001 - 00:19
#17
Posted 04 May 2001 - 17:28
Originally posted by Barry Boor
Presumably Carraciola might have had trouble, driving a 1938 Mercedes, staying with a McLaren Honda turbo, no matter how good he was.
Sorry!
Hm, I thought the Rainmaster thread was about drivers and not cars.
Besides, I am not sure whether a McLaren Turbo would be a great advantage on flooded track. The 800 bhp and the throttle lag would not be a great help there....
#18
Posted 04 May 2001 - 19:57
Originally posted by Jeroen Brink
Besides, I am not sure whether a McLaren Turbo would be a great advantage on flooded track. The 800 bhp and the throttle lag would not be a great help there....
I'd much rather have had Senna's tires than Carraciola's!;)
And in terms of raw power, the W165 wasn't too shabby either...
#19
Posted 04 May 2001 - 20:15
We had an extended essay into the proper name of the model to which you refer, the one with the M163 engine.. what was the 'W' number again?
Details are at: http://www.atlasf1.c...=&threadid=7273
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#20
Posted 04 May 2001 - 20:33
In any case, Carraciola raced a W154 in 1938. The W154 / M163 was used in 1939.
#21
Posted 18 May 2001 - 19:09
Another great rain driver was Vic Elford, undoubtedly from his rallying background, and just to put things in perspective, with Vic and Pedro driving 917K at the BOAC 1000, they finished 1-2 but Pedro was 5 laps in front after letting Leo Kinnunen drive only 75 minute stint in the middle of the race.
Now You'd wanna see Senna in the McLaren in the rain against Pedro in the 917K same conditions, at some place like Le Mans or the Old Spa, then that would be a contest and certainly the F1 car would have no advantage.
;)
#22
Posted 19 May 2001 - 14:21
Now to the subject:
Although it's, IMNSHO, by definition impossible to actually appoint the best driver/rainmaster/qualifier etc ever, there are some people that at times make you wonder. One such person is the German 2-times World Rally Champion Walter Röhrl. Although his 195 cm body prevented him from driving Formula 1, he entered almost any other form of motorsport in his career. He didn't always win, but he certainly managed to always stun the competition. One such well-known case was at the Portuguese Rally in 1980 (I could be wrong about the year) when he outdrove the rest of the field by 4 MINUTES in extremely heavy fog early in the still dark morning at the 36-42 km long (different length depending on year) Arganil stage.
I admit that it didn't rain and that it was a rally car on gravel, but let us then turn to the 24h race at the Nürburgring-Nordschleife in 1991(or was it 1992?). In the darkest hours of the night the rain got so severe that the track was flooded and the race was stopped for a couple of hours. Just before the stop Walter Röhrl outpaced the rest of the field in a Porsche 911 Carrera RS (not the easiest car to drive, let alone on a dark Nordschleife in violent rain...) by over one minute, and of course that is one minute per lap. Regenmeister seems to be a suitable word, doesn't it?
/Christian
#23
Posted 21 May 2001 - 08:04
I sat silently for a few minutes.
#24
Posted 21 May 2001 - 10:06
Vanwall.
#25
Posted 21 May 2001 - 13:37
meiner Meinung nach müsste Walter Röhrl nach seiner fahrerischen Meisterleistung auf der Nordschleife Nebel- UND Regenmeister genannt werden!
And Marco, a couple of years ago during the RAC rally, Burns overtook McRae in the fog!
/Christian
#26
Posted 29 May 2001 - 21:02
*89 Adelaide JJ was running 5th with Onyx-Ford -spare car, having destroyd race car at 1st start- before electrical failure occured. He was so much faster than drivers front of him, that would have been in TOP3 with just little more laps...
*91 Imola was his only podium finish in F1. Wet race.
*Wet races of 93
#27
Posted 30 May 2001 - 20:10
#28
Posted 31 May 2001 - 12:25
And they'd campaigned to have him and his old nail kicked out of the event
#29
Posted 31 May 2001 - 12:57
Jacky Ickx does not belong on the list.
Rouen '68 was a fluke and you can use the Nurburgring '68 as an example. Amon, who hated the rain, left Ickx behind.
Zandvoort '71 came down to tires and the Ferrari's smoother torque curve. I could go on and on. Jacky was a great sportscar driver, but no rainmaster!!!
#30
Posted 31 May 2001 - 15:59
Well, he looked pretty masterly to me, driving around the outside of Paddock Hill Bend in the wet. If he wasn't a rainmaster then I guess the other drivers in that race must have been even less masterly...;)Originally posted by Keir
[BJacky was a great sportscar driver, but no rainmaster!!![/B]
#31
Posted 31 May 2001 - 16:18
Let's not forget the duo of Phil Hill and Olivier Gendebien who were definitely superb 'bad' weather drivers. Their performance at the '58 Le Mans alone was a great display of their mastery of poor driving conditions.
#32
Posted 31 May 2001 - 16:34
It is one thing to like Amon but he was never as close as Ickx to the title and certainly you can't claim bad luck all the time. Let's keep it in perspective, Amon was good , Ickx was very good and so was Pedro.
#33
Posted 31 May 2001 - 17:05
Originally posted by Keir
Jacky Ickx does not belong on the list.
Rouen '68 was a fluke and you can use the Nurburgring '68 as an example. Amon, who hated the rain, left Ickx behind.
I could go on and on.
What a stretch of the imagination.
Name a GP driver who didn't hate the rain
Just what was the "fluke" that won JI the '68 FGP? Take a good look at the individual lap times (they're in Autocourse). JI finished 1:12.9 in front of Amon who was 10th.
Amon left Ickx behind at the 'ring largely becase JI cocked up his start, lost his visor, drove two laps without one (hard enough in the dry), stopped for a new one and still finished 4th. Amon left his car in the ditch. So who actually left who behind?
BRG - Yes I was there in '74 to see JI drive round the outside of Lauda at Paddock bend in a drenched ROC, which he won in in inferior car from a poor grid position.
Jacky may not have been the greatest wet weather driver, but he was certainly one of the very best.
#34
Posted 31 May 2001 - 19:11
Sorry lads, but Ickx was as lucky as Amon was unlucky.
"The fluke at Rouen," Ickx was "THE ONLY" driver on full rains, and yet, Surtees and Rindt still caught him, until the conditions got the better of their dry weather tires!!!! Amon started the race on DRY tires as per Ferrari's orders. At the 'Ring, Ickx choked and Amon's differential packed in, hence ending up in a ditch.
But, this isn't about Amon and I don't know how anyone could conclude that from my last post.
Back to Ickx, Ive seen Ickx go aroud Paddock Hill and I must say, if Pedro Rodriguez never existed, that momment might have been impressive. Get out your video tapes and watch Pedro go around Brands Hatch in the wet in the 1970 BOAC 1000, HERE WAS A RAINMASTER!!!!
All you Ickx fans need to look back at his career and find one bad car he ever sat in. You might be looking a very, very long time.
As for World Driving Championships, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades!!!
#35
Posted 31 May 2001 - 21:59
I'm sorry to say this but your last post is really not worthy.
Ickx may have been the only one on full rain tyres but he certainly dominated the 1968 French GP. He led from start to finish apart from the first half lap and a brief moment on lap 19 when really torential rain came down and he lost traction briefly. I don't think it is reasonable to describe any win at Rouen, let alone one in those conditions at over 100mph as a fluke.
I assume that you mean Surtees and Rodriguez, not Rindt who called at the pits at the end of lap 4 with a puncture caused by debris from Schlesser's accident. I don't know for sure, but I would be surprised if they were on dry weather tyres.
#36
Posted 31 May 2001 - 22:04
Originally posted by Keir
[BJacky was a great sportscar driver, but no rainmaster!!! [/B]
Well, Jacky was a kind of "rainmaster" at Monaco 1984 but that's another story!
#37
Posted 01 June 2001 - 02:42
Roger,
Let me see if I can make this more worthy. The race report for the French GP listed every driver on the grid, save Ickx, as using either dry or intermediate compounds. Amon, Surtees and Rindt were on drys. My info comes from Jenks, Rob Walker, Chris Amon and John Surtees. Jacky's win was a good one, but he was the master of having the right tires for the job, not being better than everyone else in the conditions. Geting back to the 'Ring in '68, those Dunlops of Stewart certainly made all the difference that day too!!
I call them like I see them. Jacky Ickx could certainly drive well in the rain, but he's not even on my top ten list.
BTW, Leif, I sure agree with you there!!!