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1965 Le Mans-winning drivers - Huh?


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#1 Dave Ware

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Posted 08 May 2001 - 16:59

I just read this on Speedvision.com:

>>Rindt, dispirited by the pace of the Fords and works Ferraris, lost interest early Saturday and wanted to go home and forget the whole thing. He drove accordingly, thrashing the NART coupe, hoping to break something that couldn’t be blamed on him. But the NART car was well prepared, and they kept migrating up the order. In the darkest hours before dawn, Gregory realized what was happening and began to take their chances seriously. He asked for and got some welcome night driving relief: American Ed Hugus stepped into the NART car until daylight. As attrition ate away the top of the field, Rindt’s attitude changed. By the halfway hour, they were just two laps behind.

Some guy named Ed Hugus shared the driving duties for that car?? Really?? I have never heard that. Is this for real? Who was this guy and why didn't he get credit for co-driving?

Dave

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#2 Don Capps

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Posted 08 May 2001 - 18:15

This is not the first time I have heard this -- nor the second or third. However, I have not been able to get independent confirmation of Ed Hugus stepping in for a stint. I did look into this and couldn't find anything to confirm the story. On the other hand, it was not possible to categorically deny that it happened either. It is an interesting story and hopefully someone else can shed more light on it than I can.

#3 FLB

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Posted 08 May 2001 - 18:36

It's in Janos Wimpffen's Time and Two Seats.

#4 Buford

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Posted 08 May 2001 - 18:57

It is true that they had early problems, and both of them drove flat out trying to break the car. Not abusing it by over-revving or anything like that, but just flogging it. They figured they had no chance so they'd have some fun while it lasted, break it, and go home early. Finally when they realized they had a chance for a good finish they started babying it.

Masten Gregory was my teenage hero. I remember watching the ABC coverage of the race. They showed the first and last hours. Of course it was all Ford vs Ferrari stuff. They spent 40 minutes of the final hour show reviewing what had happened to all the favorites. I was going nuts thinking, "What about Masten?" and "Who the hell is leading, you idiots?"

Finally after 40 minutes Jim Mckay said, "There is an American leading the race however, Masten Gregory from Kansas City and his teammate from Austria, Jochen Rindt. I flipped out! I couldn't believe it! However they never mentioned at that time anything about another driver, nor did any of the articles about the race, and I read everything I could find (and still have them).

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 May 2001 - 22:23

I don't recall anything about this in Pruller's biography of Rindt, which has a fairly long section on Le Mans 65. I'll dig out my copy and post again tomorrow.

#6 Joe Fan

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Posted 08 May 2001 - 22:26

I have Ed Hugus's phone number and I will give him a call sometime this week to try to confirm this.

Also, I have a pretty good account of the 1965 Le Mans win in the Masten Gregory article I wrote of Historic Motor Racing magazine (issue number three).

In the biography on Masten that I am currently writing, I will have even more revelations on what an amazing win this was.

#7 Don Capps

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 03:40

An Excellent Source tells me that Ed Hugus did indeed drive a stint with Rindt and Gregory.

After I first heard this -- years ago, I was very dubious. There is virtually nothing in the contemporary accounts nor was the contribution of Ed Hugus mentioned in the succeeding years. However, as correctly pointed out...

It's in Janos Wimpffen's Time and Two Seats.


... and I haven't found many errors of fact (the odd typo, yes...) in my wanderings through its pages.

Plus, Ed Hugus has never impressed me as the sort of person with a need to inflate his ego. I was amazed to stumble over my old notes on this very topic (normally it is a task which requires digging through layers and layers of scribbling...) and I find myself leaning towards wondering how we can finally get this man the recognition (albeit belated) that he deserves.

As Joe Fan correctly observes, it was an amazing win that the NART 250LM & the driving team pulled off. If it hadn't actually happened, no one would believe it! Right, Joe?

#8 Joe Fan

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 06:33

My respected source says that Hugus did take a stint in the car.

Buford, one thing I would like to point out is that Masten did not want to break the car. Rindt probably wanted to but not Masten because he wanted and needed a big win like that help boost his career. Masten also wanted to win because he was upset that team manger at Ford accused him of wrecking the gearbox on the Ford GT40 at Le Mans the year before (note that the Colatti gearboxes they used intially on the GT40's were very poor gearboxes and later found to be insufficient for the horsepower that those cars produced. The McLaren/Hill GT40 also retired due to gearbox troubles.) The NART Ferrari 250 LM had various problems early on in the race and the NART team was ready to retire the car because they thought it had a valve problem. Masten urged them that only a change of the condensator was necessary and the repairs were made.

If Masten wanted to go home early, he would have let them team retire the car then. But urged them to make the repairs and he got Rindt to get back into his uniform and convinced that they still had a shot if they drove the car like a Grand Prix car the rest of the way. They were ten laps down on the leader when they reentered the race. Masten asked Rindt if he could take the last stint in the car since Jochen would have many more chances at Le Mans. Rindt obliged because it was Masten's persistence that the car was even still running in the first place. Masten drove the car home to victory with a failing differential. The differential finally failed when a mechanic drove the car back to the pits.

#9 Buford

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 06:57

Joe - Somewhere long ago I read he had said they drove the car flat out trying to break it so they could go home early. Maybe he was talking about Rindt. That is the only factoid we do not concur on. The driving it all night flat out like a Grand Prix car is what I said they did. But it wasn't until the last 3 or 4 hours that the attrition was such that they had the slightest inkling that driving it flat out for so many hours had put them in with a chance to win. I have read he said they did it just for the hell of it for hours. You know it is a lot more fun to go fast than it is to stroke it. Especially when you are hopelessly behind.

They were up against what, eight or more factory cars and they did not have a first rank car. They didn't have a shit load chance in shinola to win that race, even if they didn't have the early delay. That is why their actually winning it has made it such an endearing story, at least to nut cases like us who care about stuff like this.

Some day when you come here to get my photos for your book we will look up all my old magazines and maybe we will find what I am remembering I read that he said.

#10 lynmeredith

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 06:59

Don Capps, this is one thing you should talk to Fred Gamble about. We spoke about it the other day and he didn't say anything about a third driver. He did say that the drivers tried to 'break' the car however. It was a surprise win for Goodyear and I'm sure that Fred would remember most of the details.

Lyn Meredith

#11 Joe Fan

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 07:14

lynmeredith, do you have Fred Gamble's number? I tried to call him last week but the number I was given was no longer an active number. He was the team manger at Camoradi and I need to talk to him for the purposes of my Masten Gregory biography. Private message me and I will tell you more.

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 13:17

As promised, details from the Pruller biography of Rindt:

Pruller implies that Jochen only had the drive confirmed at the last moment as he was BP-contracted and NART were with Shell.

"Jochen rang me from the airport [not stated which but somewhere in Austria is implied, as Rindt's plan for the Le Mans weekend was now to visit his grandmother in Graz] on the Thursday before the race and announced he would be co-driving the Ferrari with Masten Gregory. ... Jochen only arrived in time for the last practice period ..."

Pruller's account of the race more or less agrees with Joe Fan's post and as he says he interviewed Jochen for radio just before the end of the race, I think we can safely assume he was actually there!!

I wonder if the clue to this is in the fact that Jochen arrived very late at the Sarthe: perhaps Hugus did some of the last-minute shakedowns before the race?? Or was he a reserve driver in case Jochen didn't show or BP wouldn't release him? Anyone got a programme for Le Mans 1965 - that might have an early version of the entry list??

#13 Roger Clark

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 18:53

If Ed Hugus did drive the winning Ferrari why was it kept a secret? none of te principles involve strike me as te type who would fail to give due credit where it was due: unless Hugus wasn't a reegistered driver of the car and his driving it would have led to disqualification..

#14 Buford

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 20:51

Whoa - you may have hit on the answer if the guy did in fact drive during the race.

#15 Don Capps

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Posted 10 May 2001 - 00:56

Roger,

That was exactly the thought that hit me as I looked at my notes the other night -- one of those blinding flashes of the obvious.... Until the other night it never occurred to me. Then I looked at my notes on the entry list and the reserve drivers.

I think you nailed it.

#16 cabianca

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Posted 12 May 2001 - 05:18

Ed Hugus is an honorable man and I can't imagine him trying to inflate his position in the history of motor racing as so many I've interviewed have. However, I've also never been able to get anyone who was on the scene to confirm that he was in the car. The reserve driver theory is a good one, but not enough. There are still enough people alive who were there that someone must be found to confirm this story or it will remain just that, a story.
Michael T. Lynch

#17 Don Capps

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Posted 12 May 2001 - 15:15

Michael's point is exactly the one that has puzzled me about this -- from my few dealings with him and from those who know him, Ed Hugus is exactly what Michael says, a true gentlemen with little need to embellish his part in the world of racing.

In my heart I believe that Ed Hugus was in the cockpit, but as Michael says I still haven't had that independent confirmation. Like both the Centurion and St. Peter, I am taking this on Faith.

#18 buzard

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 02:48

Time and two seats. Where can I get a copy!

buzard


#19 lynmeredith

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 06:51

Does anyone know where we can see an entry list for this race? It would be interesting to see who are listed as drivers for the NART entry. I have a particular interest as it was 1) the first Le Mans that I attended for Goodyear and 2) Goodyear's first Le Mans win. So if there was an unauthorized third driver it would make a lot of difference to the result.
Lyn M

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#20 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 09:33

Lyn,

Try this page: http://user.tninet.s...q291w/index.htm

It's a compilation from many sources and surely there are errors in it but I think it's the best we can get at the moment.

Never heard of Ed Hugus driving the winning car, and believe me, I have read reports from many, many magazines and books.

#21 lynmeredith

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 11:34

Thanks Stefan, and only Gregory and Rindt are listed for that car. Which may not prove anything of course. It would have been sensible to enter a reserve driver and looking at the list of finishers it looks as if several teams, including Scuderia Ferrari did this. But no such third name for the NART car. I don't think we're at the bottom of this yet.

Boy, reading the entry list brings stirs some memories, not all of them happy. I just noticed that Lucky Casner is shown as 'fatal accident in practice'. I didn't know that.

Lyn

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 15:24

Many are the possibilities, but I think it was possible. Difficult to imagine, but still possible.

If Hugus drove in practice, having first been listed with the organisers as a last minute addition to the entry for that car (something they must have done, especially in those volatile days, with a GP the week before and Indy about the same time likely to claim a driver), then he could have driven in the race.

I would also question why it was never mentioned, however.

I also know nothing about Hugus. Can somebody fill in that shortfall?

#23 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 14 May 2001 - 03:52

It is a fact that Ed Hugus drove the Ferrari with Jochen Rindt and Masten Gregory to win the 1965 Le Mans 24 Hour.

The circumstances were about as quoted from Speedvision by Dave Ware in the first post on this thread. The way Ed described it to me is that Masten came in the pits a couple of hours before dawn - the fog and mist were becoming bad and he was having trouble with his glasses steaming up. He saw Ed and said "well, you're the relief driver - drive this goddamn thing or a while."
Ed drove it until dawn when Jochen got in.

Luigi Chinetti had two 250 LM's at Le Mans that year. One was entered by N.A.R.T. and the other by Ed Hugus. The one entered by Ed had unfixable transmission problems in practice and was withdrawn. Ed was asked to stay as a relief driver for the other car.

1965 was Ed's 10th - and last - Le Mans. He first was there in 1956 driving a Bob-tail Cooper as a works entry with John Bentley. They finished 8th overall and 2nd in class. From 1957 on Ed had an entry in his own name although the cars were usually works Porsches or Ferraris - this was fairly common practice at the time. In '57 he co-drove with Carel de Beaufort in a works Porsche and they won the under 2 litre class. In '58 he co-drove a Ferrari 250TR owned by Chinetti and entered by Ed to 7th overall. The car was painted in the American colors of white with blue stripes. It then went back to Modena where it was freshened up and Ed bought it at that time. Ed raced it for about a year and sold it for $6000. This car changed hands for 12.6 million U.S. dollars a few years ago. Still in the white and blue colors.

So Ed was a very well known and established and respected driver in 1965. He had been racing since the late 40's (and continued in to the 70's - he still has a go in vintage races from time to time) and was in his 10th year at Le Mans - where he had an excellent record.

John Baus was always Ed's team manager at Le Mans (he had been Cunningham's team manager in the early to mid 50's). He and Ed and one mechanic were virtually the only people in the pit that morning when Gregory pitted. The French official in charge of their pit was asleep. Ed's stint just never got recorded and Ed is just not the kind of guy to push the issue.

It takes nothing away from Jochen or Masten or the legend of their famous drive. But there was a third driver in the car. And a damn fine one!

One other thing about that race. Jochen never tried to blow the car up. But he did - by mutual agreement with Masten - drive it flat out and they did fully expect it to expire. When it didn't break they considered it a delicious joke on themselves. And, of course, the ultimate punch line was that they won the race. I first heard the story from Jochen just a few months after the race. And that's the way he told it at the time.

#24 Buford

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Posted 14 May 2001 - 04:07

Then why hasn't Mr. Hugus ever been given credit for this? I sounds like he made a valuable contibution.

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 May 2001 - 06:07

I think Mike's explanation gives that detail... the French official who was supposed to note it was asleep!

Thanks for that, Mike, you always come up with the inside story on this sort of thing, and knowing the key players is clearly the reason why.

Nice to see your name on the board again...

#26 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 May 2001 - 06:22

Thanks for clarifying the situation, Mike.

I am sure I'm not alone in being both amazed and excited by this revelation. I think it is astounding; at least to me, because it alters a significant piece of racing history.

TTTT, I think it is so important I want it to be on the national t.v. news tonight so that everyone will know. Or am I being silly.......... again? :lol:

#27 Dave Ware

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Posted 14 May 2001 - 17:04

Thanks everyone, especially Mike, who knew the background of the story. Wow. Double wow.

Dave

#28 cabianca

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 04:37

Regarding Mike Argetsinger's posting:
You mention Johnny Baus, a mechanic and Ed being the only three people involved in the pit stop. I find that somewhat hard to believe, especially when the car involved was near the top of the charts. There was usually more than one French marshal involved in a pit stop. While French marshalls are hardly above sleeping on the job, the fact is that some Frenchman had to cut the wire and seal that held the gas cap closed. Then, the gas cap had to be rewired and resealed. The only person who could do this was a marshall, even in the middle of the night. Even as cleaver as Chinetti was, I doubt that he would risk disqualification by having his own sealing supplies. There was almost also certainly a Goodyear person involved. So the Baus, one mechanic and Fergus story just doesn't wash. Baus is gone. I am assuming you don't know who the mechanic was, so like all of us, you got the story from Ed. As I said in my posting, I'm sure Ed wouldn't lie. However, as an historian, my responsibility is to find at least one corroborating witness or you can't call it history. I hope this forum results in several of us making phone calles to try and settle this matter once and for all, in Ed's favor.
Michael T. Lynch

#29 Joe Fan

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 05:50

Michael, it could have been a situation where Masten did a few laps and then came back in because his glasses kept foggin up. It may have not been beneficial for them to waste time refueling. However, even though I believe the Hugus story, it really should be verified with someone else who was there if we are going to completely change the record books. Having Hugus do a stint in relief wasn't against the rules from what I have been told, so it wasn't a situation where they needed to cover it up all these years.

#30 Barry Lake

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 12:10

Mike

Thanks for the post that debunks a lot of myths in relation to a very important piece of history.

The "only three people in the pit" piece might, or might not be a memory lapse, but I am inclined to believe the rest of the story.

It's about time Ed Hugus received some recognition for his drive. He possibly contributed more to the win than some of today's third (and fourth) drivers.

Had anyone considered the consequences of his not being there, or not driving? Masten's glasses fog up and he crashes? Time is lost getting Jochen out of bed and into the car? Rindt and Gregory become so tired they can't keep up the pace? An alternative relief driver might have been too slow, or crashed the car... or might have broken it by over-revving, missing a gear...

Lots of possibilities. But the reality was a great win, apparently by three great drivers.

I also never really believed that either driver deliberately tried to blow up the car. I know of at least one GP driver who has deliberately broken a car on at least one occasion. But I always believed that Rindt and Gregory decided to simply go for it and have as much fun as they could for as long as the car lasted.

That it lasted the distance at such pace was the big surprise, not least of all to those involved.

What a great car the 250LM was - including the example that had such a long and illustrious career in Australia.

By the way, does anyone remember another instance of a car stuttering into the pits way behind the field at the end of lap one, then going on to win the Le Mans 24 Hour Race? It was, in a sense, a repeat of 1965.

I was there to see that one, and I was suitably impressed. It is a quiz question - but an easy one, I feel.

The same thing has happened at Bathurst since then. Lap one, pit stop, car way behind in last place, more than a lap behind. My son, Gavin, and I, analysing the times soon afterwards on the screen in the media centre said, "They can still win this race".
The room turned as one to hurl scoffing and abuse at our "stupid" remark. Don't remember any of them apologising after the finish...

And then there was Jacques Villeneuve's Indy 500 win from two laps behind!

Of course pace car, or "safety car", periods make this more achievable today. There was no such help in 1965.


#31 Dave Ware

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 17:09

Could there have really been only three people in the pits? During last year's Le Mans coverage on Speedvison Sam Posey related his experience of driving a NART Ferrari 512 in '70 or '71...he stopped during the night to have the windshield cleaned off. His entire pit crew was asleep. He got out and cleaned the windshield himself, then continued on. So I believe there might have been only three people in the NART Ferrari pit, during the night of 1965.

I don't know if this is an enduring NART characteristic...but in his book Posey talks about going to the 1970 Daytona 24 hours in search of a ride. He couldn't even get admittance to the Penske garage. He walked into the NART garage and they had some cars there, and hadn't even decided who would drive them. Sam ended up starting one of the 512s. So perhaps NART was always kind of laid back, and perhaps it's not unlikely that there would only be three people in the pits.

FYI, I had posted this Ed Hugus question on clubarnage.com, and did not receive any replies.

Dave

#32 Barry Lake

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 17:44

It is 3.30 am and I just cleared a path to "Time and Two Seats".

The results have listed, as the race winners, Jochen Rindt (A)/Masten Gregory (USA)/Ed Hugus (USA).

In the text, they say something along the lines of (from memory - too far to go back and check it exactly):
In the early hours Masten Gregory, concerned about his poor night vision, asked Ed Hugus to take over the car until daylight.

The writer makes no mention of glasses fogging, and appears to be trying to make light of Hugus' contribution.

Also, although I do not know Ed Hugus by sight, in the podium photograph, it appears he is not present.



#33 Carlos Jalife

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 23:28

Most interesting notes. Pedro Rodríguez was there in the NART boxes everytime he wasn't driving with Vaccarella in the old dog they took to seventh place that year (won the class). Still, Pedro drove most of the night but he didn't find out about the relief driver and wasn't told by Chinetti either because he doesn't mention it and he celebrated with Chinetti afterwards because of the victory of NART which was "his" team. If it was kept a secret it was a well kept one. Then again, did Ed have the speed to run at LM? I can remember him being replaced by Pedro at Sebring or Daytona because he was too slow. Did they really give him the car?
And about Jochen not blowing cars. Well he killed the Cooper Maserati in the USGP in 1967 with the new engine because he was fed up with it and didn't bother to go to Mexico, leaving all the responsibility of leading the team to Pedro. He even boasted about bowing the engine to Pedro and too may people overheard that and the Cooper guys were not happy to say the least. And Masten, great guy, nobody deserved it more, a true racer.

#34 Joe Fan

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Posted 16 May 2001 - 00:07

I just got done talking with Ed Hugus and how the story unfolded in Mike Argetsinger's post above, is basically what he told me. He didn't strike me as the type to BS people or boost his own image.

However, when I asked Masten's brother Riddelle about this, he said that Masten never told him about any other driver being in that winning car except for Rindt. And they talked about that race shortly afterwards.

#35 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 20 May 2001 - 04:19

A couple of comments regarding the responses above.

Note Barry Lake's post. This provides documentation.

Carlos wonders if Ed had the speed to drive the car. Of course he did. This was his 10th year there and he had won his class previously and finished in the top 10 more than once. He was an ideal reserve driver under the circumstances. Remember he had his own entry for the race in an identical 250LM (also owned by Chinetti). The other driver broke the gearbox in practice and that is when Ed was asked to stay on as reserve driver for the remaining car.

Michael Lynch doubts that so few people could have been witness in the pit. Dave Ware's post should be considered as a good indication that even some years later the atmosphere in the N.A.R.T. pits was very relaxed. I have raced in many 24-Hour events (admittedly less exalted than LeMans) and been to others, and I find the scenario very believable.

Finally, on the issue of whether anyone tried to blow the car up. Carlos, I didn't say that Jochen never intentionally blew an engine up. I am saying that he wasn't deliberately trying to blow this one up. The way he told me the story, he and Masten jointly agreed to drive it flat out (because they had lost so much time early in the race) and they fully expected it would not last and they would be off to Paris early. And that's why they considered it a big joke on themselves when it kept going - and an even bigger joke that they won. But that is different than trying to blow it. If Jochen had wanted to blow it up he certainly knew how.

As for blowing up the Maserati engine in the Cooper at Watkins Glen in 1967 it certainly wasn't one of Jochen's finer moments, but that incident doesn't make him a car breaker per se. Actually it was Roy Salvadori (Team Manager) who overheard Jochen tell one of the mechanics and Roy was understandably furious. After things cooled down they decided by mutual consent that Jochen would not go to Mexico.





#36 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 May 2001 - 06:28

Following Mike's post I completely accept that Ed Hugus did drive that car. There are a couple of detail points I would like to raise.

The first is the question of why the incident has always been kept secret. The conditions in the NART pit at the time are necessary but not sufficient. There must be a reason why the change was not made public; the conditions in the pit merely indicate how they could get away with not doing so. I still wonder whether my theory about Ed Hugus not being a registered driver has any credibility.

Second, there is the question of the car Ed hugus was originally entered to drive. Autosport, published the day before the race, does not show such a car. I know that there were changes after that list was published, for example NART had no LMs in the list but to P2s. Nevertheless, such late changes tended to be within teams or closely related teams. One possibility is that NART had a 275GTB entered. Could this be that car?

Regarding Jochen Rindt, and not at this articular race, I believe that tere was a feeling in the 1968 Brabham team that he would a;ways race until the engine broke, whereas Jack would switch off at the first sign of trouble. It showed whose name was on the cheques, as someone remarked.

#37 Carlos Jalife

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Posted 21 May 2001 - 19:26

Mike : Oops! I didn't mean to say Jochen boasted to Pedro at Watkins Glen since Pedro was at home recovering from his accident in Enna. But he did next year and when they talked a bit he said something about Pedro not having to deal with the cumbersome engine because he finished it off in Watkins Glen, sort of like a joke and as "thank me for it". They weren't like great friends, Pedro and Jochen, but that time they shared the joke.
You were with Cooper then, weren't you ?:)

#38 Barry Lake

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Posted 25 May 2001 - 02:55

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Mike
By the way, does anyone remember another instance of a car stuttering into the pits way behind the field at the end of lap one, then going on to win the Le Mans 24 Hour Race? It was, in a sense, a repeat of 1965.
I was there to see that one, and I was suitably impressed. It is a quiz question - but an easy one, I feel.


Not that I'm not used to being ignored, but I thought someone would have a go at my little quiz question, repeated above.

Come on, just humour me!

#39 LittleChris

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Posted 25 May 2001 - 12:07

Barry ,

Just a guess, but possibly Jacky Ickx / Derek Bell in the 80's. I seem to remember Ickx getting taken off by Lammers at the end of the Mulsanne on lap 1 and going on to win.

Chris


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#40 FLB

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Posted 25 May 2001 - 15:59

Chris, that was 1983. The race was won by Haywood/Holbert/Schuppan.


#41 Dave Ware

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Posted 25 May 2001 - 16:43

I also remember reading, somewhere a long time ago, that after the initial mechanical trouble Gregory and Rindt decided to drive flat-out, "grand prix style". I've always considered that to be correct. I suspect that allegations that Rindt wanted to break the car just journalistic embellishment.

So why didn't Mr. Hugus get credit for driving? Joe, how does he feel about it, having shared the Le Mans winning car yet not having received public credit for it?

I think it would drive me bonkers.

Dave

#42 Joe Fan

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Posted 25 May 2001 - 21:53

Dave, I didn't really get into those things with him, just his account of the whole ordeal--how he got his stint in the car and the circumstances surrounding it. He didn't seem to be bitter about it. If there is any doubt about the credibilty of his account, then he may be partially to blame for not pressing the issue enough from his end. If it were me, I would have pressed the issue until I have given official credit. However, some people are not like that.

#43 Barry Lake

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Posted 02 June 2001 - 06:24

Sorry folks! I forgot to give the answer to the last-to-first Le Mans win question.

It was 1984, the yellow and black "New Man" Joest Racing Porsche 956 driven by Henri Pescarolo/Klaus Ludwig.

It seems my memory was slightly awry in that I thought the car had stopped at the end of lap 1. The book doesn't describe it in detail but, from the times of the pit stops, it appears the first stop was at the end of lap two, for two minutes, to tighten a leaking fuel line.
Then, a lap later, it was in again for three-odd minutes to have the fuel injection pump adjusted.
As it began its fourth lap, the leaders had begun their sixth laps. It was in 53rd place of 53 starters and two laps behind.

After one hour it was 30th, then 17th, 16th, then dropped to 22nd after having a suspension wishbone replaced late in the fourth hour. It was then placed, at each hour, 15th, 10th, 10th, 9th, 8th, 7th, 5th, 4th, 3rd in the 13th hour, 1st at the 17th hour, and led every hour thereafter.


#44 Joe Fan

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Posted 25 November 2001 - 21:06

I just got done talking to someone who was there in the NART pits at Le Mans in 1965 (I won't say who-you'll have to buy my book ;)) but this individual said that the Hugus story is not true (and they were there the whole time). So as they say, "The plot thickens." Even though this may have happened, I am pretty confident based upon my research and who I have interviewed, that it did not. Nobody in Masten's family has even heard of this story until I brought it to their attention. They all believe that Masten would have said something to them about this if this really happened. Back to square one. History is HIS STORY but if it cannot be verified by someone who was there, then it is not history--its just a story.

#45 Dave Ware

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Posted 26 November 2001 - 18:24

Mike/Joe, I will definately buy your book. :)

Dave

#46 lynmeredith

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 07:55

Originally posted by lynmeredith
... Fred Gamble ... We spoke about it the other day and he didn't say anything about a third driver. He did say that the drivers tried to 'break' the car however. It was a surprise win for Goodyear and I'm sure that Fred would remember most of the details.

Lyn Meredith

I just bring this up from the archive to correct my post #10 above. I have re-read a letter I received from Fred Gamble (Goodyear) and he says this re the drivers 'breaking the car'. "Both Jochen and Masten were good friends [of Gamble] till their deaths and they never told me that they 'flogged' the car to break it...".
This is the opposite of what I (LDM) wrote and I humbly apologise. Gamble went on to say "I hosted a victory party in Paris for Chinetti after the race. Jochen couldn't make it so it was Luigi [Chinetti], John Baus, Masten and wives. No mention was made of Ed Hugus."

Gamble also said "Prior to the race Luigi phoned me in Wolverhampton [Goodyear UK HQ] and said he needed a good but CHEAP driver to pair with Masten. ....we were involved with Jochen in F2 and to say the least I was impressed with his talent as most everyone else was. So I recommended Jochen to Luigi and he had John Baus set it up (Baus being the European manager or whatever for NART/Chinetti and Cunningham for many years)."

My apologies for digging this up again.

Lyn M

#47 dretceterini

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 14:30

Joe:

what is the title and when is it coming??

Stu

#48 Joe Fan

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 16:23

Originally posted by dretceterini
Joe:

what is the title and when is it coming??

Stu


The title I am still debating on but the book should be available by Christmas 2003 at the very earliest. However, a more reasonable guess would be in the early part of 2004. I have completed the first draft of the book (74,500 words so far) and I will spend the remainder of the year trying to nail down a few more interviews and reviewing what I have written in an attempt to improve the manuscript. I could have the book on the market by next summer if all I was interested in was getting it out there but I want to take my time and do this right. Overall, I am very pleased how the book is turning out and I think it will be one that even a borderline Masten Gregory fan will enjoy. Masten was quite a character!

#49 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 17:16

Just discover this thread...

Was it possible in the 1965 Le Mans regulations to have 3 drivers per car ?
If not, there perhaps is the reason why Ed Hugus was not credited for the win — could be a disqualification matter.

Does anybody know how to contact Gérard "Jabby" Crombac, who was a great friend of both Luigi Chinetti and Masten Gregory, and always used to be everywhere in the races he attends, even if not requested to be there...
Perhaps does he know a lot on this affair ?

#50 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 17:26

I have heard of this third-driver claim being made and have been told it's complete horse-feathers. But Luigi Chinetti Jr would be the bloke to confirm it either way?

DCN