119 replies to this topic

[deangelis86]

Just thought I'd remind you guys that it's 15 years since Elio suffered his crash at Paul Ricard in 1986 on a tuesday afternoon.

Also, I thought it would be a good time to revamp my website so have a butchers at it and if you have any comments good or bad let me know! It's nearly done bar the tribute link.



www.geocities.com/chasey_uk/eliodeangelis.html

[Barry Boor]

I am honoured to say that I saw his final race, at Monaco, just two days earlier.

However, a slight anomaly seems to have arisen regarding dates. The Monaco race was on 11th May. My book says Elio died on 15th May. But the Tuesday after the race would have been the 13th.

Could you explain this one, deangelis?

[Hans Etzrodt]

My sources tell me that Elio de Angelis died on Thursday, 15 May 1986 at a Marseille hospital after a crash during testing at the Paul Ricard Circuit. Could his accident have happened on Tuesday or Wednesday?

[fines]

No, he died the same day. He was one of my heroes, I can still vividly remember when I came home that day and my father told me "some F1 driver" had died. I was totally devastated when I heard it was him!

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I am honoured to say that I saw his final race, at Monaco, just two days earlier.

However, a slight anomaly seems to have arisen regarding dates. The Monaco race was on 11th May. My book says Elio died on 15th May. But the Tuesday after the race would have been the 13th.

Could you explain this one, deangelis?

Hi Barry,

Saw your entry in my guestbook - you were a very lucky guy witnessing Elio's last race. I guess you and Pascal were the only guys on this forum that did!

On the subject of Elio, I've got it ever so slightly wrong it wasn't the Tuesday his accident occured - it was the Wednesday......

His acciden during the afternoon, but he died in Marseille general hospital the following day on Thursday. The common misconception was that he was killed at Ricard but that was most definately not the case.

[MattFoster]

Elio was a hero of mine also, a great talent (in more ways than one) was lost on that day

[tonicco]

Hi all,

I remember Elio quite well. As a matter of fact, he was the first F1 driver I ever spoke to, back in Estoril '84.

He was a perfect gentleman, most educated, fast as few, and very respected amongst his fellow drivers.

I also remember that he spoke with about classical music, as well as what he was expecting to do in the years to come...

How I miss him (and more drivers like him...)

Best regards,

[deangelis86]

Tonnico,

You were a very lucky person indeed, if you can recall any more about your conversation at Estoril then tell us on this thread!!

[Captain Cranckcase]

How good was this guy? I know he blew Mansell away but how did he do against Senna? Was he WDC material? and why did he wear a Motocross style helmet?

[ghinzani]

Very good when he wanted to be - the helmet was probably a Simpson Bandit type helmet - they were popular in the 80s!!

[mikedeering]

He was excellent in 1984 - only man to take the battle to the dominant Mac's.

Initially he fared well against Senna - and led the 1985 WDC for a couple of races. He took an excellent pole vs. Senna at Montreal IIRC.

As the season wore on, his performances faded (a la Ralf) and Senna was really able to dominate him (in only his 2nd year of F1...). This was probably as much to do with Senna's off track manoveurings than anything on the track. Seeing no future at Lotus with Senna, Elio opted for Brabham in 1986 but their radical car was a flop and Elio did little with it before being killed in testing that spring.

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by Captain Cranckcase
How good was this guy? I know he blew Mansell away but how did he do against Senna? Was he WDC material? and why did he wear a Motocross style helmet?

He was very good, though I don't think he was WDC-material. He never really blew Mansell away, but he was much more consistent (I think he was probably as good as Prost and Lauda at getting his car to the finish) and scored a lot of second, third and fourth place finishes. He wasn't spectacular and he wasn't wild in his overtaking manouvers, but he made up for it by driving very smart.

He was in a sense a poor man's Alain Prost. Of the current crop, I'd compare him to David Coulthard.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
Of the current crop, I'd compare him to David Coulthard.

How has David's piano playing developed lately?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
He was very good, though I don't think he was WDC-material.

Few of those who have becme the WDC were really considered "WDC-material" at various points in their careers.

Elio de Angelis was basically a stand-up guy, old school if you will. He was always one of those that I kept an eye on and seemed to someone who raced with the right attitude. I was really dismayed when I heard about the crash at Paul Ricard.

[Ray Bell]

I was also dismayed, Don... I posted about this once before, it's on a thread about de Angelis that might prove interesting to the oil-bathed Captain...

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&postid=274003

[Emulman]

How good was this guy?

well..second at the Brazilian GP 80, the most regular driver who gained points in 1981, in 1982 won teh Austrian GP and the San marino GP 1985 and in that year until the canadian GP fought with Alboreto for the leadership..and in 1986 he drove the strange Brabham BT 55, which was no competitive for its revolutionary features until the practices at Paul Ricard on May 1986...

[Mac Lark]

On a par with Coulthard? - yeah I'd agree with that.

He never seemed 'hungry enough often enough'.

Allan Henry picked him to be world champion in 1983. Lotus were running the Renault turbo's for the first time and Pirelli's.

I'm not sure AH has ever lived it down.

Regarding his helmet - Alesi was a great de Angelis fan and hence the similar helmet designs.

[deangelis86]

The comparision with Coulthard is not that far off in terms of racing ability. In terms of personality, very different.

A place in the points usually made Elio happy. He needed more motivation than most to produce results, and only when everything was 'right' did we see true pointers of his ability:

Interlagos 1980 (race)
Austria 1982 (race)
Great Britain 1983 (qualifying)
Brazil 1984 (qualifying)
France 1984 (qualifying, race)
Germany 1984 (qualifying, race)
Canada 1985 (qualifying, race)
The 1st abandoned Belgium race 1985 (qualifying, provisional pole on Friday)
Germany 1985 (race)
Brazil 1986 (race - 8th in a pig of a car)

IMHO Elio was WDC material for more than one reason. He had natural speed, an intelligent brain and perhaps more importantly, the mechanical sympathy to get the car to the finish.

[Mac Lark]

But did he have too much intelligence to take the risks over a full season to become champion.

Given his 'time at the top' was 1982-85, would he have won the title in a Williams in 1982? Nah

Would he have won the title in a Brabham in 1983? Slight possibility

Could have beaten either Lauda or Prost to the title in '84/85 if teamed with either at McLaren? NO

But:

He might've had a shot in running a Ferrari for a full season in 1982.

But he wouldn't be alone.

By the way, speaking of the 1983 Brabham - has there ever been a thread on 'suspicious' champions mounts? A list that could include perhaps a couple of cars used by a 5 time WDC.

[Ray Bell]

Put the word 'cheat' into search and find out...

Of course there has, but you are welcome to expand it.

[alain_sl]

It is always sad to read that Elio would not be WDC because he was not keen on taking too much risks. I am stil full of the bitter memories when Elio did take risks and they did not pay:
- the 83 European GP at Brand Hatch.
- the 84 Belgium GP where Elio refused to pit and change tyres. he was then catching Piquet in front of him but later had to slow down.
- the 84 German GP at Hockenheim: was leading the race (with Prost and Piquet just behind him) until the Renault engine let him down. Would Elio had turn the boost down, let the McLaren and Piquet pass him, he may have finished 3rd (all other Renault powered cars finished the race proving the Renault engine's reliability).
- the 1985 Detroit GP where Elio was running second, but made contact with Berger when trying to lap him.
- the 1985 Belgium GP (Spa) where Elio stayed out with wet tyres even after rain stopped.

Would anyone say that Fisichella is not "WDC-material" because he seems not taking enough risks, because he never overtake like Montoya? will Fisichella never be WDC because he now only scores 5th places (excellent 5th places in my opinion) just like Elio scored an excellent series of 4th-5th-6th in 1981 with the Lotus 87? They both just don't have the best car of the season.

[Tim Murray]

I remember that at the 1983 German GP it was reported that Elio had physically assaulted Denis Jenkinson, pushing him to the ground. This always struck me as being totally out of character for Elio. Does anyone know whether there is any truth to this story, and, if so, why it happened?

[deangelis86]

Us 'Elio experts' answered this one a while ago Tim, I think a search on 'Denis Jenkinson' should give you the full story!

[WGD706]

I don't kmow if you saw this "ask Nigel Roebuck" column in the on-line Autosport but here it is........
Dear Nigel,
I became a fan of F1 in 1984 and an immediate fan of Senna after Monaco that year. Besides Prost, the only team-mate I think ever gave Senna a run for his money was Elio De Angelis in 1985. Both won a race that year and they were pretty even in qualifying. How did you rate Elio and if he had been able to stay with Lotus in 1986, how would he have compared to Ayrton?

Michael S. Greene,
Elkhart, Indiana USA

Dear Michael,
De Angelis, I suspect, would not have much liked the F1 cars of today - although undoubtedly, with his subtle skills, he would have been delighted to see the end of the electronic 'driver aids'. Elio's style was ultra-smooth, and I'm not sure that the contemporary cars much lend themselves to smoothness. For that reason, too, I doubt that, say, Alain Prost would have been much in his element in this era.
Since de Angelis's time, the entire format of a grand prix has changed. No longer is it a matter of getting a set-up for 200 miles, which will work well with a full fuel load and a virtually empty one. We have refuelling now, and set-up is much closer to what used to be a 'qualifying' set-up. Even a massive fuel load these days is good for not much more than 100 miles, and the races have become a matter of sprint-stop-sprint.
How good was Elio? Not as good as he could have been, in my opinion, in the sense that, while I think he had natural talent to throw away, his ambition never matched his ability. He came from a very rich family, and so raced primarily for the pleasure of it. With Elio, you never felt that F1 was the centre of the universe; it came easily to him, and was one of many good things in life, there to be enjoyed.
He was often, as you say, not far away from Lotus team-mate Ayrton Senna in '85, and occasionally he was quicker - I can still remember Ayrton's displeasure at Rio that year, when he was out-qualified (at home) by his team-mate. Perhaps the biggest single difference between them was that de Angelis went racing because he loved it, and Senna went racing because he had to. Elio would have liked to be World Champion; for Ayrton it was an absolute necessity, and as soon as possible.
Those of us who knew de Angelis remember a delightful man, with a lovely, ironic, sense of humour, and manners from another age. Jo Ramirez, who worked with him in his early days at Shadow, remained a close friend to the end of Elio's life, in a testing accident at Paul Ricard 1986. This is how he remembers him.
"Elio was like Francois Cevert in many ways, charming, completely genuine, a very good driver. I remember the day he signed the contract for his first F1 drive - we went out to celebrate, to a coffee shop in Northampton called Cagney's, where we had hamburgers and chips! For all his wealth, Elio was a very down-to-earth person. He used to come to my house, and play the piano - like Francois, he was classically-trained.
"I remember going testing with him at Paul Ricard once. No one wanted to go out on the wet track, even though it had stopped raining, and then someone suggested that we all took our hire cars out, and dried the track! I went with Elio, and it was fantastic to watch him - he just floored it all the way round, slowing the car with the steering wheel. Superb! Things like that...well, nowadays no one would do it, would they? It was so much more fun back then.
"Elio was a wealthy man, but he wouldn't buy what he wanted just because he could. There was a particular Rolex watch he wanted, but it took him weeks of deliberating before he said, 'Yes, I'm going to buy it'. Then he took off the watch he had, and gave it to me. It was a gold Baume-Mercier, and although I wear it very rarely, I happened to be wearing it the day he died at Ricard."

[Gary C]

I remember Elio appearing on BBC TV's 'Question of Sport' programme!!!

[deangelis86]

I have to say that Roebuck has it spot on again with that article.

Just out of interest, this Question Of Sport appearance, was it as a guest or just as a featured question?

This isn't the first time I've heard Elio's name in conjunction with A Question Of Sport.

[stephen jenkins]

I too remember Elio's appearance on Question of Sport, he was on one of the teams answering the questions. On whose team, I am afraid, I cannot recall.

[Ray Bell]

No greater tribute could be made to the man than the Legends article in Motor Sport about the day he kept the piano keys going while negotiations went on elsewhere...

Or... that he, in his death, enabled a very lovely woman who was convinced that racing drivers and others in and interested in the sport were uncultured demons to learn that she was wrong...

[TODave2]

I always remember him because he had a different crash helmet design to everyone else. He always had a sort of nose/mouth bit where everyone else's just wrapped around. It looked great

[TODave2]

Well, I said always but just looking at your site I can see that wasn't the case!

However, this was the one I meant:

[maxie]

Speaking of his special helmet, I remember watching the South African GP 1981 and found that he had not put on his helmet properly. His nose was a bit to a side and as his visor was not shaded that day, what I saw was I head-tilting guy driving a Lotus. It was quite a funny scene.

[Maldwyn]

He was a very special sort of driver because he did what he did out of love for the sport, not for any commercial reason. He was well educated, a gentleman, someone who was good to know as a person

There's little more to be added to Ayrton Senna's words from this page on deangelis86's site.

Elio might be gone but he certainly will not be forgotten.

[Rediscoveryx]

I'm not a big fan of Nigel Roebuck, but occasionally he writes very good articles, and the one on de Angelis was extremely good

[mp4]

Maldwyn,
Thank you for the link.

[irvine99]

18 years ago Elio crashed heavily......





irvine99

[D-Type]

. . . but not forgotten.

[Doug Nye]

The Formula 3 Chevron in which Elio won at Monaco in 1978 is being offered for charity in the Bonhams Monaco auction Sale, May 15, 2004:

1977 Chevron -Toyota Novamotor B38 Formula 3 Racing Single-Seater
Chassis no. 38-77-01
"If you had to nominate two people whose names were synonymous with the word Modena, many would choose Enzo Ferrari and Don Sergio Mantovani…" Thus wrote Denis Jenkinson, an assiduous spectator at Modena, in his book "Jenks, a passion for motorsport", in the chapter dedicated to the famous padre and entitled "Don Sergio, A delightful man".

Don Sergio Mantovani is a modern parish priest (who carries the same name as the driver Sergio Mantovani, who recently passed away and drove in various Grand Prix races between 1953 and 1955), universally known as the "drivers’ chaplain". His pastoral tunic, worn over his black clergyman’s suit, was a customary sight in the paddocks of Grand Prix races in Monza and Imola, and occasionally also abroad.

A native of Modena, Don Sergio was ordained to the priesthood in 1953: it was at that time that he began to spend time with the Maserati racing team, and was welcomed with great cordiality by the workmen. He then began to follow the "Squadra Corse" on the circuits too, establishing friendly relations with Jean Behra, Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss. In 1959 he was appointed to the Santa Caterina parish, beyond the bridge over the Viale Ciro Menotti, just a few hundred metres from Maserati’s Modena base. From an idea shared by Behra and Don Sergio stemmed the concept of establishing a nursery school dedicated to deceased automobile drivers, which was inaugurated in 1961 in the presence of Fangio, Moss, Von Trips, Trintignant, Adolfo and Omer Orsi of Maserati and Count Volpi of the "Scuderia Serenissima". 1971 witnessed the inauguration of the Ara, a wing-shaped drivers monument which was the work of Modenese sculptor Marino Quartieri. Don Sergio Mantovani has worked tirelessly on behalf of his parishioners: in 1978 he built the new parish church, and in 1987 the "Casa della Gioia e del Sole", an ultra-modern old people’s home endowed with the most modern equipment which can house 87 pensioners who are no longer self-sufficient, with a particular concern for the most needy. The great "Gigi" Villoresi lived here for the last three years of his life.

Don Sergio has always succeeded in establishing a special relationship with all drivers, who have found in him comfort for their fears and nurture for their faith. He also created special ties with Elio De Angelis, the unforgettable Italian driver who died on 15th May 1986 during a private testing session on the Le Castellet circuit, 18 years ago to this day.

When attending Elio’s funeral, Don Sergio met his father, Giulio De Angelis, who visited him a year later and donated an extremely valuable painting to the Parish of Santa Caterina in memory of his son. Only 15 days later, Giulio De Angelis, while in his villa in Sardinia, was kidnapped by a gang of Sardinian bandits. Don Sergio offered to serve as an intermediary between the family and the kidnappers, and in this capacity drove on certain nights hundreds of kilometres along the winding Sardinian roads, stopping from time to time in various places, for exchanges of information. After five months, an agreement was finally reached regarding the amount of the ransom. It was then that, at the risk of his own life and demonstrating courage on a par with his great faith, Don Sergio offered to take the place of the kidnapped man in the hands of the bandits. When payment arrived three days later, Don Sergio was released.

His ties with the De Angelis family had become very close and, thanks to the contribution of the family, Don Sergio began building a multi-purpose gymnasium that could be used either by parishioners, or by guests of the Casa del Sole. The new modern gym hall, inaugurated on 22nd November 1997, was dedicated to the memory of Elio De Angelis.

The De Angelis family gave Don Sergio the single-seater Chevron with which Elio had entered the international scene, winning the Formula 3 Monaco Grand Prix in 1978: this prestigious victory had been achieved in his year-old car, Elio having reverted to Formula 3 to recoup his stature following a poor early showing in the Formula 2 Chevron-Ferraris he was running that new season. His victory opened the doors of Formula 1 motor-racing to the gifted Roman driver, who subsequently won two Grand Prix races with Lotus, the Austrian in 1982 and at Imola in 1985.

Don Sergio is grateful for the free and unselfish cooperation of Adolfo Orsi and Historica Selecta, the Circola della Biella, Fiorenzo Fantuzzi, the Giuliani car repair shop in Modena, Sandro Bacchi (who took the photos), Cars Europe (for the transport) and Bonhams Europe.

The entire proceeds of the sale will go to the Casa della Gioia e del Sole.

Estimate: €20,000 to 30,000

DCN

[alain_sl]

thank you Doug for having spotted this auction.
there is a photo of the car at the Bonhams website: click here

race car number was 28 at the 1978 monaco GP and not 25 as painted now.
but the main question remains: why has this car to be sold ?????

Alain

[Doug Nye]

Don't thank me - I work for 'em... :

The car sold in yesterday evening's Bonhams Sale for 27,600 Euros - £18,643 - $32,797 - which goes to Don Sergio's Casa della Gioia e del Sole charity.

Incidentally the Michael Schumacher Ferrari F1/2000 in which he won the last four GPs of that season - chassis '205' I think (not checking) - sold for a hammer price of 1.3-million Euros (£878,150 - $1.54-million) while the 1966 Ecurie Francorchamps Ferrari GTB/C went for 915,500 Euros (£618,420 - $1.087-million). A Fiat Jolly beach-car realised 70,250 Euros (£47,453! - $83,478!) - and a pair of Michael Schumacher's overalls (a market sector of which I personally disapprove) sold for 12,075 Euros (£8,156 - $14,348) which is infinitely less than it would have cost you to have a promotional patch sewn onto them last year....funny old world...?

DCN

[D-Type]

I'm glad to see that it raised a price towards the top of the estimate which I'm sure will help Don Sergio's "Casa della Gioia e del Sole."

Thank you for the additional information on Don Sergio, Doug.

I suppose the Fiat Jolly raised such a high price as all the others have disintegrated into a pile of ferrous oxide.

[Gary C]

I was on holiday that year (1986) in France, Germany & Spain. When I got back I asked my father what had been happening in the three weeks I had been away. He said that a Formula 1 driver had been killed the week before. Took me about two days to finally find out who it was. I was particulalrly upset as I remember Elio putting in a good appearance on the BBC's 'A Question Of Sport' not long before & had warmed to him considerably.

[cheesy poofs]

His death saddened me greatly, but it is the aftermath of the accident that bothered me deeply. Without the necessary marshalling usually seen at Grands Prix, his Paul Ricard accident served to reinforce adequate safety mesures for private testing.

[David Holland]

I was also fortunate to see his last race standing on a cafe chair on the approach to Ste Devote. I remember seeing newspaper stands on my return to London (Evening Standard I suppose) with the heading "Horror GP crash" and foolishly thinking they were still talking about the Tambay/Brundle incident. Sadly this fine driver had to die before testing sessions came to their senses and organised proper adequate marshalling.
A tearful Murray Walker gave a fine epitaph to Elio on UK breakfast TV the next day. I believe Jean Alesi paid homage to Elio with his own helmet design with French blue added at the top.

A true gentleman, a great driver and an excellent pianist too - sadly missed. He would have made an ideal ambassador for F1.

[Barry Boor]

I feel privileged to have seen Elio's final race too. From the silly little grandstand that they no longer have between the swimming pool side and the fence, facing the harbour.

A fine driver and clearly, a very nice man.

[Mallory Dan]

As I recall Elio only won that Monaco F3 race in 78 by nerfing off Gaillard's works Chevron near the end. Perhaps Elio was ahead of his time in this respect ...

I don't doubt he was a lovely guy, but I always thought him a little overrated I'm afraid. Didn't really do it in F3 or F2, got to F1 with family money, pretty much outshone by Our Nige at Lotus over the next few years.

I don't expect many others to agree with me on this.

[angst]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
As I recall Elio only won that Monaco F3 race in 78 by nerfing off Gaillard's works Chevron near the end. Perhaps Elio was ahead of his time in this respect ...

I don't doubt he was a lovely guy, but I always thought him a little overrated I'm afraid. Didn't really do it in F3 or F2, got to F1 with family money, pretty much outshone by Our Nige at Lotus over the next few years.

I don't expect many others to agree with me on this.

I certainly don't remember him being outshone by 'our nige' at Lotus. As I recall Elio seemed to hold the upper hand, which lead to the first signs of whingeing that we later came to expect from the future World Champion. I also recall him being one of the few teammates to give Senna a run for his money. Perhaps not as single minded as a Mansell or a Senna, but certainly not over-rated.

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The Formula 3 Chevron in which Elio won at Monaco in 1978 is being offered for charity in the Bonhams Monaco auction Sale, May 15, 2004

Many thanks DCN for that very interesting story.

I knew of the Elio de Angelis sports centre, but did not know the full story as to how it actually came about.

More can be read here about the sports centre from Alain's Elio site:

http://www.eliodeang...froad/where.htm

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
As I recall Elio only won that Monaco F3 race in 78 by nerfing off Gaillard's works Chevron near the end. Perhaps Elio was ahead of his time in this respect ...

I don't doubt he was a lovely guy, but I always thought him a little overrated I'm afraid. Didn't really do it in F3 or F2, got to F1 with family money, pretty much outshone by Our Nige at Lotus over the next few years.

I don't expect many others to agree with me on this.

Really? I for one agree with a lot of what you say - Elio's results really were not overly impressive in minor formula, and to a large extent he did indeed arrive into F1 with the help of the family rather than on the string of results gained in F2 and F3. The catalyst for F1 as you mention was the Monaco F3 race in 1978, even if it was achieved in inauspicious circumstances..;)

The second part of your post I don't agree with. I think that overall, you have to say that Elio was definately the most consistant performer at Lotus from 1980-84, particularly so during the early years. Nige found his feet during the latter half of 1983 I think, and whilst I agree that he consistantly displayed faster turns of speed than Elio during 1984, he still found points hard to come by.

Few could match Mansell when he was actually in the mood, a fact that was proved during his move to Williams in 1985!

[Ray Bell]

It's appropriate enough to post this again...

Originally posted a long time ago
During 1986 I was totally in love with a girl and enjoying her company for the second winter in a row. She was very much against the thought that motor racing could have any bearing on culture or that 'nice people' could be involved in such a barbaric sport.

It was a subject we had frequently discussed, and the beauty of this woman was that she was always open to discussion. Always tried to understand.

We were walking along talking about poor Elio's death some time in the following day or two, and I told her he was a concert pianist.

She stopped in her tracks.

One day I must show her the article from Motor Sport about that lockup... a truly moving story.

For all that I wanted Keke to win at the Osterreichring, in retrospect I have to say I prefer that it ended that way.

Fifteen years? Well, the love has faded as the poor girl has changed, but I will never forget what she used to be. And this moment is one that stands out...

[RX-7]

A real Prince!