259 replies to this topic

[TenTenths]

What is going on, Web ad's not paying the bills now.
I love this site ,and now it is ruined.

I'm sure there will be some long drawn out explaination for this but, it doesnt make it right. I've been getting my F1 news from AtlasF1 for years and now this. I've supported AtlasF1 advertisers!!

There are enough news sites on the net that do not want payment
for access, thats where I'll get it now.

DAMN I HATE THAT

[Ali_G]

Uh oh

Niall hides for cover !!!

Niall

[JayWay]

There coulda been an anouncment. Kinda cheap tactics, teasing us with the issue then go "WOOPS YA GOTTA PAY TO READ!".

Oh well, wheres my dads credit card.

[molive]

there´s an extensive thread on the subject on the AtlasF1 forum

I suggest you go and check what others had to say about it...

[TenTenths]

Sorry "bira"

I didnt see the original announcement

[bira]

Please post your questions/ reactions here, and only here.

Thanks,

Bira

[Mosquito]

Ok, not sure if this is what this threads supposed to be for, but here goes some suggestions on luring ;) members:

1) Make some content free. You could per magazine perhaps decide on a few articles to be freely available.
2) Trial / preview period?
3) News could automatically become free say after 2/3 days?

I have some other suggestions on content as well, but I'd rather sit on them for now.

[Smooth]

I had asked before:

What is the policy on posting, qouting, or cut and pasting content from the pay-side to the BB's? It has been very common practice to use articles, sections of interviews, or news items as points of debate, or as factual backup in a debate. It seems a real sad reality that there will be an US and Them vibe around the BB's, but what will the resolution be?


Also: Will you rename Reader's Comments, if not everyone is able to read and comment?;)

[bira]

Originally posted by Smooth
I had asked before:

What is the policy on posting, qouting, or cut and pasting content from the pay-side to the BB's? It has been very common practice to use articles, sections of interviews, or news items as points of debate, or as factual backup in a debate. It seems a real sad reality that there will be an US and Them vibe around the BB's, but what will the resolution be?

Smooth, I will not bar this atogether, no. If someone is quoting from a report or article to prove a point or to spring a debate then I have no problem with that. If someone is posting whole articles and/or news reports just for the sake of sharing them with everyone, I will delete that post.

Originally posted by Smooth
Also: Will you rename Reader's Comments, if not everyone is able to read and comment?;) [/B]

Some things can't be changed ;)

[Alfisti]

There is no argument that this is the best F1 site ..... by far the best. I have to agree with the mild critisizm of the news section and the daily grapevine but overall this place is so far ahead of the rest it is embarressing. Whether or not this is worth the fee is for individuals to decide. I think most agree it's worth it but it's a case of whether or not you can afford it.

Paul/Bira, note most of the outright rude/insulting comments were from new members who'd most probably became part fo the board just to lodge their one whingy post.

One thing I could suggest is a discount every year if one continues to subscibe for 12 month periods. The cost is still a concern given the ridiculous value of the $US.

One last thing, can a member defer a period of their subscription? I am going on holidays for three months so could I defer foo that period?

[bira]

fisti,

1) We are looking at options of making subscription easier for Australians and New Zealanders, though I am not quite sure we'll find any due to business laws restrictions etc.

2) I have no problem with you "freezing" your account if it's for more than one month (don't want people to start freezing it every other weekend ). Simply contact me directly when this is relevant.

3) Yes, benefits will certainly be added for renewals. But there is time to think of that

4) The news and grapevine will improve. We have a few tricks in our hats to come soon

Cheers,

Bira

[JayWay]

Atlas sucks








































I lie

[theMot]

Just wanted to voice something else.

Further to what Mosquito was saying. I think theyre should be some free content still available to unsubscribed people so they can atleast get a taste of it. Maybe have a look at a site i used to visit but havent since it became a pay site... www.autospeed.com.au

Its a site for modified cars in oz and its something like $30 aus a year to join. The way they did theyre articles is what i thought was good because at least you still get a taste for the site even though your not subscribed. Perhaps something like this could be done and when you subscribe the full article will be available??? Interesting to note their bb is only for subscribers and the traffic to it dropped off probably by about 75% a day since they turned into a full paysite a few months back.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by bira
Smooth, I will not bar this atogether, no. If someone is quoting from a report or article to prove a point or to spring a debate then I have no problem with that. If someone is posting whole articles and/or news reports just for the sake of sharing them with everyone, I will delete that post.

Thanks.

[Wolf]

OK, I'll voice my opinion... First, TBH, I don't think I will subscribe to ATLAS, but only on account of not being able to afford it. IMNSHO, Don's RVMs alone are worth the money.

And I find most of the arguments 'it was free why would we suddenly have to pay for it' ridiculous. It is a good hing that this new thread addresses most of the issues very well and for it. Keep up the good work, ATLAS, and best wishes in breaking-even (I hope even profit shows up on horizon as well).

However, I do have a small suggestion and will PM it to Bira if it's OK with her.

[Paste]

If you were looking to just make some of the content free, I'd suggest that the race preview and race review would be good articles to single out. That was you don't give away any of the really juicy stuff, but people can get a feel for the high quality of the journalism. Just a thought.

[Drinky]

I asked this before, but it went unanswered: Will the archives (everything up to the 2001 Spanish Review issue) remain open?

[baddog]

Originally posted by bira



Smooth, I will not bar this atogether, no. If someone is quoting from a report or article to prove a point or to spring a debate then I have no problem with that. If someone is posting whole articles and/or news reports just for the sake of sharing them with everyone, I will delete that post.



Some things can't be changed ;)

this is very excellent news. I was hoping you would take this 'industry standard' approach to the copyright issue. I was discussing it with my partner this morning, and we both hoped you would see it that way. cool.

Shaun

[Reg]

"In this day and age, not agreeing to make such concessions means extremely little income.

March 2001 is a fantastic example of what we have come to:

We had in march 1.5 million visitors to the website - a new record for Atlas F1.
At the same month, we spent about 22,000 USD.
And, at the same month we made about 3,000 USD."



Bira, are you saying you cleared $3000 in March?
That must be wrong.
Also, what about looking for 20000 subscribers at half the cost?

Surely you could attract that amount from a growing monthly hit count, and your expansive coverage?? No?

$50 bux (Canadian) is a bit steep IMO, but I may pay half that.

[bira]

1) the archive so far remains open.

2) the news will become open once it's x old -- I've not decided on the x yet. Probably one month or so.

3) I like your idea, Paste, and I will give it a thought.

4) Wolf -- always!

5) Motty - answer my e-mail, goddamnit

[HappyDude]

Suggestion:

Make it possible to send someone a subscription, the way Blue Mountain greeting cards does, like something saying "Congratulations! has sent you a 1-year subscription to AtlasF1, click here to choose your username and password". And the payer's credit card wouldn't be charged until the subscription is activated. Should be simple to do and if it results in even a few more users it'd be worth it. I know a few people I'd send it to as a gift.

Might help for people who don't have credit cards (younger readers whose parents don't want to give them ctheir CC numbers?) Or how many of you have a significant other who hates F1 but knows how much you love it? Would make a nice present for any F1 fan.

And maybe somebody would get Paste a membership... or he could get his own and we could all chip in and get him a case of Kraft dinner or something;)

[bira]

not sure what you mean by "cleared", reg.

What I meant is that we spent $22K, and we have income of $3K. The difference - $19K - came out of our pockets.

As for the price -- I addressed that in the FAQ Scroll

[caper2874]

To open, I'd like to say Hat's Off to you guys. Not often will a source take such caring/concerned measures to ensure that everyone's opinion is heard. I will be subscribing shortly, and would like to prematurely express my right.
As I patiently await Montreal, I keep checking the Events and Gatherings posts, and can't wait to meet some of the guys at Ziggy's downtown. My suggestion is that maybe you could send another lucky bugger along to all of the races and organize some quick and dirty gathering a local establishment for members of the site. We could all get together, and you could win over folks at the track and possibly pull in some new members. Just a thought.
Thanks for being the source.

[Drinky]

bira,

Since you mentioned news will become open with time, how about the Grapevine or the articles? Will they forever remain closed or will they be opened as well?

And I second the suggestion of allowing people to read at least the main review and preview, as I still don't see how you will attract new customers. Simple word of mouth won't do it, people would like to be able to judge for themselves.

[Reg]

Bira

Once I am without this service for a time , maybe it will change my mind and I'll cough up the money.

In the meantime I hope your pockets are deep, and that the fewer quality subscribers are enough!

Good luck. and thanks.

[schna]

I going home and view AtlasF1 and I click Ralf Interview and request Login!!!

Wow..
For $36 for one year is nothing! I pay at once then I read about Ralf!

With $36, just like pay 2 bottle cola or one pack cigarette per month!

I reading AtlasF1 since 1996. It's better EVERY year!

GO ATLASF1 GO!!! KEEP WORKS!!! MORE articler, MORE review GP statistics!!

[Vetinary]

This is taken from the registration page :

"Confidentiality: None of the details you provide here will be passed on to a third party under any circumstances! Furthermore, all information is stored on a secure, non-public database and only the administrators of this website have access to it."

Prehaps you could clarify. I mean, does the "administrators" term includes all the judges, hosts, etc.?Does non-public means off-line? Sorry to bring this up, but Credit card security on the net is somewhat lesser than the traditinal method for using them, and I usually don't use mine while being on-line.

[Bruce]

Just read the FAQ

Well said Bira.

Everyone should take a gander at it - it explains most of the queires posed in the enormously long "Atlas F1 new format" thread and takes 1/100000th of the time to read...

[jimm]

OK seems there are a couple of issues here.

1) The way this was sprung on everyone. Yes there was a poll BUT no forwarning was given. Just curses as we tryed to access the site and were denied. In addition, while the providers of the site have sacrifced alot and provided a great site, it is the members here and especially the BB that make the site what it is as much as anything. I have been comming to this site since 1995 but did not really start hanging around on a regular basis until the BB really go up a going. I know other sites that I have visited that are in need of more money but they have given the membership options such as donations and asked if they would pay for better services not forced them on them.

2) OK, Atlas wants to run it for fee like a buisness instead of allowing the membership to have other options, then we are forced to decide on the basis of ROI (return on investment). As long as there are free sites a paying site regardless of quality, will be difficult to maintain. In addition, for those willing to pay there is NO guarentee that the site will be around in 6 months as, contrary to Bira's assessment, the posters here are at least evenly (and I think that is being very generous) divided on wether to pay and I don't see a strategy to bring in new people. This means that membership will most likely decline overtime.

I personally think that the Atlas staff should re-evaluate this move and have an open discussion with those of us who help drive the BB. One of the other sites that I frequent has addressed the same problem in another way. They made a plea to the membership on the forum and made it easy for the regulars to donate what ever amount of money they want and have shirts and other items to purchase and use the profits for the site. It seems to be going well. The difference is that instead of feeling like a customer I feel like part of the site and I willingly give a donation or by the shirt or whatever. I never evaluate the ROI question because it is not the point where the approach that has been adopted here it is. I bet if you had offered the same option here many who have stated they will leave may have contributed something and you might have ended up with the same amount of income.

Bira, I would like a response to this please.

[Bruce]

jimm - I think you'll find that most of your questions are answered in the FAQ thread...

[bira]

Originally posted by Vetinary
Prehaps you could clarify. I mean, does the "administrators" term includes all the judges, hosts, etc.?Does non-public means off-line? Sorry to bring this up, but Credit card security on the net is somewhat lesser than the traditinal method for using them, and I usually don't use mine while being on-line.

1. administrators of the website refers to myself and Christian Halvorsen. No one else has access to the database.

2. we DO NOT store credit card details AT ALL on our database. Once the transaction is cleared, only your name, address, email, username, password and OrderID are entered to the database.

[indysteve]

Originally posted by bira
What I meant is that we spent $22K, and we have income of $3K. The difference - $19K - came out of our pockets.

Wow!

You definitely have deeper pockets than I do, or at least you did before you started Atlas F1!

I signed up for a one year subscription, and I'm looking at it as an investment as the FAQ suggests. Atlas F1 is the best there is, and I want to make sure it stays in business.

For those who think the subscription price is too high, I'd like to suggest an alternative way of thinking about it. If Atlas F1 ceased to exist, would you have more than $36 a year's worth of disappointment? I know I would. And don't forget, if Atlas F1 goes away, it all goes away. That includes the parts that are still free (e.g., this BB).

So, if you've decided to just use the free parts of the site, be nice to those of us who subscribed; we're subsidizing you.;)

[BlackGhost]

50.00 bucks Canadian to read smartly written stuff on F1 is fine with me.

I just hope Mitch McCann doesn't vanish now that I paid my subscription!

[bira]

Jimm, I'll respond only to what is NOT in the FAQ thread. The rest of your points I am not ignoring, but rather referring you to that thread for my answers

In addition, while the providers of the site have sacrifced alot and provided a great site, it is the members here and especially the BB that make the site what it is as much as anything. I have been comming to this site since 1995 but did not really start hanging around on a regular basis until the BB really go up a going.

This is in no way meant to belittle the Bulletin Board, but please keep the proportions straight: there are about 4,500 registered users on the Bulletin Board -- a quarter of that max are active.

There are over 1 million unique visitors to Atlas F1 every month.

And you know something, many - not sure if even most - of the BB users think Atlas F1 is just that: a BB. The BB is important, but it's not the reason why Atlas F1 is here and not the most important part of our website for us and obviously for the majority of the visitors.

One single magazine article on Atlas F1 has more readers than an enite week's worth of threads in Readers Comments...

I know other sites that I have visited that are in need of more money but they have given the membership options such as donations and asked if they would pay for better services not forced them on them.

Donations are not something you can build a budget on. Many take PBS as an example -- but it's a WRONG example. Someone was saying just yesterday (I can't remember who!) that PBS's vast majority of donations are from large corporations. So it's not quite the same...

don't see a strategy to bring in new people. This means that membership will most likely decline overtime.

The move was discussed and studied for the long run over the past 2-3 months and I'd venture to say that we DO have a very good plan on how to increase subscription. I think you are wrong, but I'm not going to publish our business plan for the sake of this argument



For the rest of your points, see my above response as well as the FAQ.

Cheers,

Bira

[MP4/?]

The murderer of this site has been done...

I have noticed that after the GP (during Sunday, Monday and Tusday) there were a lot of posts and people were really happy to participate..

Today I have seen only a few new posts... Maybe people is boicoting the site????

[Bex37]

I suggest that AtlasF1 treat loyal users a lot less brutally next time a change like this is made. I don't have a problem with what has been changed; its your call. Its just the way AtlasF1 did it that is the problem. As I said in a previous post, the instant I realised I couldn't get into my favourite web site without paying, and after I had been visiting nearly every day for four years, I felt like I was a blackmail victim. It was virtually pay up or get out!!!

Even though I do not have a problem with it, I still have not decided whether or not to subscribe. I'm just going to bide my time and see what happens in the next few months. In the meantime, I'll be getting my news elsewhere. This is mainly because I haven't got the ready cash at the moment.

On the other hand, I think it is a wise thing to see what happens before spending my hard earned cash. I do not have any guarantee that AtlasF1 will be here in six months time. There is no information on the site to show how safe the investment is. Perhaps this could be rectified in some way.

[BlackGhost]

Originally posted by MP4/?
Today I have seen only a few new posts... Maybe people is boicoting the site????

We are all exhausted from Sunday's various brawls.

[Bex37]

I wish I could say the same, but I am a lot less trusting of AtlasF1 after the brutal and inconsiderate method of implemenation of the change. Perhaps I'll regain it in a few weeks/months.

[MP4/?]

I'm not happy with this!!!!

[whit]

I looked at it this way...Over the past few years, I've already received my 36 dollars worth.

Why do so many people expect to get their information and entertainment for free? Where do they think it comes from? And shouldn't the producers of that content be compensated for their time and skill?

I would be hesitant to pay in advance for a new service, but with Atlas I feel I have been given a few years free trial, and it has been very worthwhile. It has proven to be the best amoungst a crowd of free F1 sites. If I had to pay for one, it would be Atlas.

Most people are, or should be, aware that websites and the internet economy based on advertizing revenue models are losing propositions. A business must generate revenue to survive, otherwise it's just a charity that will eventually dry up.

My only worry is that Atlas has reached the cross roads, and that if the subscription model doesn't work, the whole thing will die. But I'm not worried what I just spent, I've already got my moneys worth.

[baddog]

Originally posted by MP4/?
The murderer of this site has been done...

I have noticed that after the GP (during Sunday, Monday and Tusday) there were a lot of posts and people were really happy to participate..

Today I have seen only a few new posts... Maybe people is boicoting the site????

It seems fairly normal for the time of week/day. I posted a middling thread a few hours ago that has 27 replies... pretty normal for a between-race period. I think there will be a few strident types 'boycotting' but not enough to make any difference

As bira has said, the BB is to a very large extent a seperate animal to the magazine..

Shaun

[MP4/?]

I think the same... the BB is the most important part of these site... I always visited the magazine because it was there...but really is no very important for me...

The only article I will miss will be the Roger Horton one... These guy is very good... Well I will have to live without it!!!

[Paste]

I don't think it's a matter of boycotting, I just think that it's taking everyone a little bit to settle back in.. I just started posting to the Readers Comments section again today.

[garth_b]

Originally posted by MP4/?

Today I have seen only a few new posts... Maybe people is boicoting the site????

My experience has always been that the number of new threads goes through the roof on a race weekend and by Tuesday this dies down. Also a lot of energy has gone into the debate on the new subscription so, understandabley, the number of new posts will reduce as members digest the news.

I am confident that this BB will be as active as ever after Monaco. By then a lot of the smoke will have cleared with this change to a subscription model. I see MP4/? that even you are reacting more calmly today than you were yesterday

For myself, I haven't decided whether to subscribe or not yet. I recently avowed that I would never enter into commerce over the net but I wasn't thinking about having to pay for this service. And it is a service . I have to say the FAQ's, bira's reasoned replies in this thread and the admin's approach in some other threads is winning me over to paying.

Until I make up my mind definitely, good luck bira, paul et al

[Pikachu Racing]

Bira

I haven't subbed yet due to a fact I do not have a credit card. When I get one and do subscribe does it have to be one year? I usually read articles once a week.

[StuffedBeaver]

Bira,
So as not to beat about the bush, do you need the subscription in order to keep the site afloat? or is it more to do with finding a finance solution for the journo section only of the site?

My point - I don't or ever had read the news pages, therefore don't feel any guilt about not stumping up 36$ for the privilidge.

I don't want to see this site go down the drain, so if subscriptions are required to keep it afloat, I'll subscibe.

I would appreciate an answer please.

[bira]

Stuffed, there's no doubt that if Atlas F1 was to shut down, then everything will be shut down. It's one parcell.

Not sure what else to tell you. You're asking whether the subscription is needed to keep Atlas F1 running or whether it's needed to maintain the journal. These two are one and the same, really.

Does that answer it?

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

Well, Atlas has long been my favourite F1 site but in truth you're not the only F1 site on the web, there are others that have more insider news and updates than you, which are free and will remain free.

I understand why you made it a pay site, but I don't think it'll help you. I'm preparing myself mentally for losing Atlas from the Web. It was a great site while it lasted.

[ghealey]

I will not subscribe.

I have visited the site regularly for several years and agree that it is possibly the best formula 1 site.

Obviously it is the owners priveledge to ask money for use of the site. However the way it was done with no warning was a shock to me. Like walking to work through a park every day for years only to find the way bared and only open to paying subscribers.

The main reason I won't subscribe is that despite the site being a good one I do not feel it is worth the money to me. I have previously subscribed to F1 magazine but have not renewed my subscription.

I would have been willing to pay somewhere between $10 and $20 for the pleasure of reading the new on the site but not more.

I hope for the sake of those who do pay the $36 that the site continues to be as good as it has been.

Graham Healey

[StuffedBeaver]

Bira,

A good enough answer!!

My cheque is in the post