199 replies to this topic

[Mark Dill]

I apologize for not responding to Hans earlier. I haven't been good about checking in with the forum.

Yes, the Loney family site is where I got my information. I also saw the NY Times obit, which was reprinted in the Indianapolis Star with additional information.

I recognize the conflicting dates, but after seeing the Loney family site I felt like the evidence titled toward 1887.

[D-Type]

I've just read an article on Bruce-Brown by Paul Fearnley. He says that David borrowed elder brother William's papers and ID so he could enter his first race. Could this be the source of the conflicting age data?

[jdtreelines]

Well gentlemen, I just receive a email from Jane C. on behalf of The Green-Wood Cemetery:
Quote:
"(...) What our records indicate is that David L. Bruce-Brown died October 1, 1912 at the age of 25 years. That would make his year of birth 1887. Incidentally, dates of birth are not a part of Green-Wood’s records, but rather age at time of death. (...)"

So, I think we can admit that August 13, 1887 (mostly quoted by the different sources) is the right date!
(and, of course, the Brooklyn genealogy website is wrong...)

Jyl

I hesitate to reopen an investigation that has apparently been successfully completed several years ago, but I have found some evidence which tips the balance towards 1889 as the birth year of David Bruce-Brown.

Having arrived at this thread as a result of the "Greatest Thread of all time - ever", I read through the posts and, as a semi-professional genealogist, this post jumped out to me as a challenge ...

No... I couldn't find ANY "relevant" Bruce-Brown between 1890-1910.

My guess is he may be down as simple David Brown, but no matter what combination of surnames (bruce, Bruce-Brown or Brown), it wasn't working out - likewise for William. You can take a list of David & William Browns but that's a very dodgy area to go down - I could search for the father, but that's not really going to answer the crucial question.

So I used my Ancestry subscription to dig a bit deeper, and after trying many different possible spellings and representations of the double-barrelled surname, I came up with the following index entry from the 1910 US Census. It's clear that the person who indexed the entry had problem deciphering the handwriting on the original census document.

View Name Parent or Home in 1910 Birth Birthplace Relation View
Record spouse names (City,County,State) Year Image

View Ruth A Bruce Brenn city, New York, abt 1862 location relation
Record [Ruth A Brucebrown] New York

View William Bruce Brenn name city, New York, abt 1887 location relation
Record [William Brucebrown] New York

View David L Bruce Brenn name city, New York, abt 1890 location relation
Record [David L Brucebrown] New York

This link MAY take you to the Index page in Ancestry (I can't test whether it will work if you don't have a subscription).

This entry supports the notion that DB-B was born in 1889 rather than 1887. Ideally we should now look at the original document and use the Birthplace to lead us to his birth or baptismal records, but unfortunately my UK subscription allows me access to overseas indexes only so none of the green links work for me. To view the original document I need a full Worldwide subscription - which costs much dosh. Perhaps an American TNFer (Richie?) has a subscription allowing access to the originals and could take the investigation further.

I was not able to find the family in either the 1890 or 1900 Censuses - so either the handwriting was even worse - or they were abroad.

[Ray Bell]

That's very interesting...

I hope someone can pursue it. Nice to see this old thread reopened, too.

[Richard Jenkins]

I still favour 1887...

New York Passenger lists - http://search.ancest...;pid=4032160944

But that's as much as I can find to add officially... I would still favour the original research over a census if I had to put my money on it.

[Vitesse2]

That link only works with an Ancestry sub, Richie. Any chance of a screen grab? And maybe those from jdtreelines' links above?

[jdtreelines]

... And maybe those from jdtreelines' links above?

Why didn't I think of that??

Here is a screen grab of the Ancestry Census Index.

[Geoff E]

I was not able to find the family in either the 1890 or 1900 Censuses - so either the handwriting was even worse - or they were abroad.

I thought there were problems relating to the 1890 census, and Wiki confirms it - Most of the 1890 census was destroyed in 1921 during a fire in the basement of the Commerce Building in Washington, D.C.

see http://en.wikipedia....d_States_Census

[jdtreelines]

I thought there were problems relating to the 1890 census, and Wiki confirms it - Most of the 1890 census was destroyed in 1921 during a fire in the basement of the Commerce Building in Washington, D.C.

True. But Ancestry does have copies of the 1,233 pages that were salvaged from the fire, and they include some households in the following areas around New York -
New Jersey—Hudson County: Jersey City
New York—Westchester County: Eastchester; Suffok County: Brookhaven Township

I certainly didn't expect to find them in 1890 - but there's no harm in trying!

Anyway, if one of our US researchers can download the 1910 Census entries and they give a true birthplace for DB-B, then we should be able to track back to the relevant county's Vital Records index and nail this question down once and for all.

[Richard Jenkins]

I've done a screen print but this forum won't let me post any image unless it's on a website??

[Vitesse2]

E mail it to me and I'll post it: richardarmstrong (at) fsmail.net

[Vitesse2]

"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice:

[jdtreelines]

"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice:

And Ruth Bruce-Brown seems to be playing the part of the Red Queen??

When she arrived at Liverpool in 1899 she seems to have forgotten which of her children was which!! David is now apparently a year older than his brother William!!



It seems that every source we find gives different data. Somehow or other we need to find the county where he was born and then to locate his Vital Records.

[Ray Bell]

Fantastic stuff!

The sleuths will get to the bottom of this eventually, I trust. Thanks for your efforts.

[Collombin]

Just noticed that Find A Grave now has a photo of Bruce-Brown's - and it says 1889.

[Vitesse2]

For some reason it doesn't show up on any Find-a-Grave searches (I tried! Hard!), but it's actually linked from the Wikipedia page:

http://www.findagrav...p;GRid=64424368

This is possibly the last picture of David Bruce-Brown and Tony Scudelari before they set off on their final practice run. Linked from Wiki and supplied by Wisconsin Historical Society:

[Russ Snyder]

“Tetzlaff declared he did not hear the tire explode, but missed Bruce-Brown behind him as he slowed down to take the Fond du Lac Road....Meanwhile George Clark, one of the Mercedes drivers, discovered the plight of Bruce-Brown and telephoned for an ambulance from a nearby farm house after giving first aid to the injured men.”[/color] (It surprises me that in 1912 a farm in rural Wisconsin would have a telephone.)
Tony[/color]

Fascinating thread...and I can add something about the American phone system from 100 years ago

Yes, rural farms had telephone service by 1912.

The bell system (old American Telephone & Telegraph) had made a commitment to Congress to 'provide rural service for the nation'

The lines were called Party lines...one phone number could service multiple locations at once

Each house/farm was hooked into the phone line and had x number of rings/Selective ring telling them that the call was for them/house.

Conversely, You could pick up the phone to call out and listen to someone's call in progress ....You would then have to wait until that call was completed to call out.


FYI - I was surprised to find out our UK friends had a similar arrangement previously to WW2 with "party lines"...btw, as of 1990, "Party lines" were still to be found in some rural American area's.

[Vitesse2]

FYI - I was surprised to find out our UK friends had a similar arrangement previously to WW2 with "party lines"...btw, as of 1990, "Party lines" were still to be found in some rural American area's.

My parents still had a party line in rural Gloucestershire in the early 1980s.

[David McKinney]

We still had party lines in rural parts of New Zealand in the 1950s - that's how I learnt Morse Code

[Andretti Fan]

We've had our phone number for almost 40 years now. It was a party line, and actually, it still is. There's no one else on it, but it is. And yes, it's a rural area. we have to pipe in sunshine! Hahaha!

[arttidesco]

Fascinating thread, I wish I had something to useful to add beyond saying that I'd be very wary of taking census details as gospel, some years ago I was helping my dad trace some ancestors using census data covering 40 years in the east end of London. We found one relative who aged anywhere between 8 and 18 years from one census to the next and between 1891 and 1901 his age went from 42 to 37 !

Some confusion may have arisen because the eldest male in the family always received the same christian name but I suspect something else was at play which in this day and age I cannot seem to pin down. Our surname is unusual and was always registered as living at the same address over the period in question so there is little to no chance of, for example, Mr Smith moving out to be replaced by another Mr Smith moving in.

[Vitesse2]

May 15th 2016. Today Max Verstappen, aged 18 years, 7 months, 15 days has won the Spanish Grand Prix.

[cpbell]

May 15th 2016. Today Max Verstappen, aged 18 years, 7 months, 15 days has won the Spanish Grand Prix.

Quite an amazing performance by Verstappen; history in the making.

[Glengavel]

Someone on another forum posted a list of successive youngest winners. Bruce McLaren held the record for 47 years, an amazingly long period. I suspect Verstappen's record won't be broken any time soon, particularly since he was also the youngest ever driver by nearly two years.

[kayemod]

Quite an amazing performance by Verstappen; history in the making.

 

Isn't he the only Dutch driver ever to win a Grand Prix, certainly he's the only one since 1950, but were there any earlier than that? My knowledge of earlier racing doesn't go much beyond Nuvolari and the Mercedes/Auto Union era, but some TNFs will of course know much more.

[Michael Ferner]

Johnny Cecotto was youngest GP winner in bike racing for two decades, and when his record was finally beaten (by Capirossi?), people said the same thing

Someone on another forum posted a list of successive youngest winners. Bruce McLaren held the record for 47 years, an amazingly long period. I suspect Verstappen's record won't be broken any time soon, particularly since he was also the youngest ever driver by nearly two years.

Johnny Cecotto was youngest GP winner in bike racing for two decades, and when his record was finally beaten (by Capirossi?), people said the same thing. I don't know, but I think that record was broken every other year or so since. I expect the same thing to happen in F1.

[Rob Ryder]

Someone on another forum posted a list of successive youngest winners. Bruce McLaren held the record for 47 years, an amazingly long period. I suspect Verstappen's record won't be broken any time soon, particularly since he was also the youngest ever driver by nearly two years.

It will be very difficult with the 18 year old minimum age limit on a Super Licence now.
Into F1 and a winner inside 7 months? I don't think it possible.
Rob

[2F-001]

I believe a new minimum-age limit was introduced in the wake of Max V's signing by Toro Rosso, plus some stipulations about length of experience gained in lower categories, so his record will be a tough one to beat.

I think it means that aside from meeting the super-licence requirements (if feasible) the driver would have to win in the first half of their first season.

 

Ah, Rob beat me to it. The time of year of one's birth comes into play too.

Edited by 2F-001, 15 May 2016 - 19:23.

[Vitesse2]

Isn't he the only Dutch driver ever to win a Grand Prix, certainly he's the only one since 1950, but were there any earlier than that? My knowledge of earlier racing doesn't go much beyond Nuvolari and the Mercedes/Auto Union era, but some TNFs will of course know much more.

 

Yes, he is, Rob. There were a few Dutch racing drivers pre-WW2, but none reached the dizzy heights of GP racing. Not least because circuit racing of any sort hardly existed in the country. The original Assen public road circuit dates back to 1925, but was only used for bikes, and AFAIK the first Dutch circuit race for cars was at Zandvoort in 1939. A public road circuit, not the one in the dunes.

 

The Dutch were much more active and successful in rallying and Alpine Trials, though. Dutch drivers won the Monte in 1929 (Sprenger van Eijk) and 1938 (Gerard Bakker-Schut).

[Radoye]

Yes, he is, Rob. There were a few Dutch racing drivers pre-WW2, but none reached the dizzy heights of GP racing.

 

Walter Rens took part in 1936 German GP at the 'Ring in a private Bugatti.

 

That's the only outing of a Dutch driver at a major pre-war GP that i'm aware of.

[Vitesse2]

Walter Rens took part in 1936 German GP at the 'Ring in a private Bugatti.

 

That's the only outing of a Dutch driver at a major pre-war GP that i'm aware of.

Indeed. I'd forgotten him! (Often rendered as 'Reus' in error!) MG men Hertzberger and Herkuleyns - and the young Gatsonides, who was just starting to race on circuits in 1939 - are really the only other names of note, though. One or two in the city-to-city era too, I think. Baron Van Zuylen for one.

[Leif Snellman]

"Eddie" Hertzberger won the 1936 Frontieres Grand Prix (technically it was a Grand Prix race but in reality it was a voiturette race)

 

There also seems to hav ebeen a Cor-Jon van Hulzen, who took part in the 1930 Dieppe GP

Edited by Leif Snellman, 15 May 2016 - 22:58.

[ReWind]

Often rendered as 'Reus' in error!

 
And "Walter" is also wrong. See here.

[Barttore]

Dutchman Cornelis Johannes "John" van Hulzen was already racing his orange painted Bugatti in the Spanish "GP" de San Sebastian in 1930 guys. DNF because he crashed and almost did not survive. But he was racing some international events 2 years earlier already with some result- but no victories.  So after 86 years Verstappen finished what he started .

 

Johannes Willem (not Walter-another error) Rens did start in 1936 but never managed more than 2 rounds. 

Edited by Barttore, 16 May 2016 - 06:42.

[Henk Vasmel]

25-7-1907 - Circuit des Ardennes: 2nd: Frits Koolhoven (of aeroplane fame)
July 1898 - Paris-Amsterdam-Paris: Van Zuylen van Nijevelt (no result available)
July 1894 - Paris-Rouen: Entered: a Dutchman called De Zuylen, possibly the same as above

[Lee Nicolle]

Someone on another forum posted a list of successive youngest winners. Bruce McLaren held the record for 47 years, an amazingly long period. I suspect Verstappen's record won't be broken any time soon, particularly since he was also the youngest ever driver by nearly two years.

They will be taking them from primary school soon.

Not knocking Maxs achievment at all. But todays motorracing is not motorsport at all. And has not been for some while.

[john aston]

Disagree- in the sense that whatever golden age one harks back to , comparisons with earlier times are inevitably made by older fans that it had all gone to the dogs by then. There is much I dislike about modern GP racing (complexity, cost, silly rules and daft venues) but when it  is good it is still two young men ( for how much longer ?) in a mano a mano contest . That's what  we saw on lap one yesterday .

 

And Verstappen would shine in any era; seems like yesterday I heard the Dutch fans at Club chanting 'Who's the boss? Jos! Jos ! Jos !'

 

And now it's 'Who's the daddy- Jos !Jos ! Jos !'  

[D28]

Disagree- in the sense that whatever golden age one harks back to , comparisons with earlier times are inevitably made by older fans that it had all gone to the dogs by then.

 

And Verstappen would shine in any era; seems like yesterday I heard the Dutch fans at Club chanting 'Who's the boss? Jos! Jos ! Jos !'

 

 

Yes he certainly would, but hen again so would Bruce McLaren. It is almost impossible to compare the two eras, growing up in N Zealand in the 1930s to Europe in the early 2000s. Both drivers had supportive fathers who also raced,and Bruce had to overcome a rare child disease. The difference is that Max had access to extensive junior racing series from karts right on up, series that just didn't exist in Bruce's time. It is just inevitable with all the structured racing available to youngsters today that the winning age would continue to drop.

 

We can see a similar situation in America with musicians, child prodigies on guitar and fiddle; these kids have access to instruction videos and tapes of master pickers, something that was unavailable in the past.

 

Still 18 is almost unbelievable for a F1 winner, and Max deserves full credit. This substantial achievement takes nothing away from the records of Bruce McLaren and Troy Ruttman, different eras, different results.

[Vitesse2]

25-7-1907 - Circuit des Ardennes: 2nd: Frits Koolhoven (of aeroplane fame)
July 1898 - Paris-Amsterdam-Paris: Van Zuylen van Nijevelt (no result available)
July 1894 - Paris-Rouen: Entered: a Dutchman called De Zuylen, possibly the same as above

From memory, Henk, Baron Van Zuylen was a founder member of the Automobile Club de France and was also a participant in Paris-Rouen.

[Alan Baker]

Verstappen is described as Dutch, but was born in Belgium to a Belgian mother and a Dutch father and travels on a Belgian passport. Appropriate that he drives for an Austrian team based in England using French engines. They might as well just play the EU anthem at the end of the races.

[kayemod]

Verstappen is described as Dutch, but was born in Belgium to a Belgian mother and a Dutch father and travels on a Belgian passport. Appropriate that he drives for an Austrian team based in England using French engines. They might as well just play the EU anthem at the end of the races.

 

And if his current rate of progress continues, he'll soon be living in Monaco, assuming he isn't already, so that's another one you can add to the list.

[Radoye]

I believe the nationality of a driver is being determined on where their racing license was issued from, no?

[Vitesse2]

I believe the nationality of a driver is being determined on where their racing license was issued from, no?

No. Three examples come to mind - Prince Bira raced on a British licence until 1939, since Siam wasn't affiliated to the AIACR until October 1938; Paul Pietsch raced on an Italian licence in 1938 and 1939 (as that was where he lived at the time - whereas Caracciola lived in Switzerland from 1929 but always used a German licence, even - I believe - after he became a Swiss citizen in 1947) and Stirling Moss spent a year using a US racing licence when he lost his UK road licence, which meant the RAC automatically cancelled his UK racing licence.

 

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule though and I suspect at least part of the reason that Max has a Belgian passport is that as a small child he was probably more likely to be travelling with his Belgian mother. Customs would probably look askance at a Belgian mother travelling with a Dutch child, even if the surnames matched.

[uechtel]

Didn´t we have a discussion about that already? As far as I remember the result was, that generally the "nationality" of a driver (or a team) is determined by the license, but with the exception rule for Formula 1 that the "passport" nationality counts. But if that were correct and Verstappen has indeed only the Belgian nationality then why did they play th Dutch anthem?

 

Maybe it is simply handled pragmatic or the driver is allowed to choose?

 

I hope I can find that old thread somewhere.

[uechtel]

Found it:

http://forums.autosp...hl=+nationality

[scheivlak]

Two remarkable trivia: 

 

1) On a regional site http://www.rtvutrech...e-beaufort.html we can read that if Max Verstappen secures pole in Monaco he'll be in the footsteps of Carel Godin de Beaufort who was the first Dutchman securing pole on the occasion of the 1963 Rome GP...... Carel's sister Cornelie BTW is full of praise about Max.

 

2) Max himself said in the Wednesday press conference that he's not only the youngest but also the oldest Dutch GP winner 

[Allan Lupton]

2) Max himself said in the Wednesday press conference that he's not only the youngest but also the oldest Dutch GP winner 

How pleasant that someone in his position retains a sense of humour and/or the ridiculous!

I hope success does not spoil him!

[nicanary]

How pleasant that someone in his position retains a sense of humour and/or the ridiculous!

I hope success does not spoil him!

It's about time we had some individuality in the pitlane. PR presssure has made them all like automatons, afraid to say anything without a quick glance at the media man by their side.

 

I don't watch it much these days - some of the younger members of TNF may well see a 12-year old as WDC. Don't be surprised if the whole shebang ends up as driverless cars controlled by whizzkids on a laptop.

[Tim Murray]

Max was interviewed on BBC Radio 4 this morning, and I was impressed by his pleasant and good-humoured responses to some rather crass questioning. He came across as very mature for his years.

[F1matt]

It will be very difficult with the 18 year old minimum age limit on a Super Licence now.
Into F1 and a winner inside 7 months? I don't think it possible.
Rob

It is going to be difficult, possibly the only way it could be beaten is if we have another Lewis Hamilton scenario where a driver makes his debut in the quickest car and catches his team mate out....


As a footnote what a great thread with some fantastic research, a privilege to be on this forum surrounded by such dedication and knowledge.

Edited by F1matt, 29 May 2016 - 09:25.