54 replies to this topic

[100cc]

one of the reasons stated to moving into a "pay-per-view" system at atlas was that you didn't want slow down the loading time with banners and you didn't want to get sponsored by a company that would make your reports biased, and now, sitting there on the front page is a michelin advert

[Ghostrider]

But you have to admit that the Michelin figure looks funny though. I always smile when I see it.

[Khan]

WTF?!??!?!?!!?!

A certain AF1 editor said they don't want to be sponsored by a major company so that the journal won't be publishing biased material. WTF is Michelin's Day then??!?!

Khan

[Khan]

Quoting the original ANNOUNCEMENT thread :

But Atlas F1 has continuelly developed and is now in a stage where running it on a quality basis, and improving it, cannot happen without a backer.

We could have gone the Autorace route -- we had offers from F1 teams -- but we did not, do not and will not want to become a PR site of a subject we cover.

We could have sold out to a large corporation. I think not, thank you very much.

No, we prefer to pledge our allegiance to one backer, and one only -- the readers. We want to be in debt to the readers and not to any other party whose interests are not necessarily 'free press'.

Should I panic now?

[Mosquito]

I second this!

I have no problem with the little Michelin banner since it doesn't hamper the reading and it fits right in, not an annoying banner, but the 'Michelin day' link is VERY SUSPICIOUS!

Let's come clean, this is obviously a 'Sponsored article' by an 'external biassed party'.

[Khan]

Not to mention that this ad is probably counter productive to Atlas. I've naturally clicked on the ad just to find the MichelinF1 site. I have discovered a large hi-tec website (they even have 3D circuits ). In effect Atlas has just advertised a competitor.

[smarty]

I don't understand what all this fuss is about. What could be wrong with a small logo? You should be all happy that Atlas make some money without creating nuisance in the navigation or in the main view of the site.

[cygnus]

Since they chose to be sponsered by a corporation, what is stopping them from selling out to other large companies? Seems like you could have avoided the whole 'subscription' fiasco, keeping the news free by letting these ppl pay the bills. Why stop at just Michelin?

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by smarty
I don't understand what all this fuss is about. What could be wrong with a small logo? You should be all happy that Atlas make some money without creating nuisance in the navigation or in the main view of the site.

Smarty, it's the (upcoming) article that's the real problem.

I don't mind the logo that much, though it's also contradicting earlier announcements about banners and advertisement, but little banners like that never get me excited anyway.

Reading about 'Michelin's glory' from the sponsor itself is not something I think lightely off.

[Khan]

I don't mind the ad banner itself - Bira said that the front page will still carry ads even for the sub users.

What I do mind is A. that it is a banner of a major company involved in the sport. and B. that it seems to affect the content of the site (the michelin's day link).

There's a big question about who will write the 'michelin's day' content. If it's someone from AF1 - then Atlas have just sold out and is making PR for Michelin. If it's someone from Michelin - then it's just an advertisment pretending to be a story, and just like in the real newspapers, such 'stories' should have a small 'Advertisment' written on the top.

Khan.

[Eli]

Michelin's day will be a link to Michelin's site, that's all. Atlas F1 will have nothing to do with the content of the report.

[Khan]

What happened to the 'filthy rich' comment?;)

[BRG]

Personally, I couldn't care less about the Michelin advert - I think you guys should lighten up! - but the Michelin site is excellent. I really like those 3D circuit views. Thanks to Khan for pointing this out!

[Locai]

For those that have said "It's no big deal", well on the surface you're right.

But, the "Big Deal" is that the whole reason that they decided to go to a pay-site was that they didn't want to "sell out" and wanted to remain "unbiased".

Now, we suddenly see (and only a couple of weeks later, I might add) the words "sponsored by Michelin" and "Michelin's Day" on the front page.

That sure looks awfully hypocritical to me!!

[JuanF1]

Maybe that means the old non-PPV format will be back soon?

[RedBaron]

Atlas said it is very unlikley that it will ever return...

Originally posted by JuanF1
Maybe that means the old non-PPV format will be back soon?

[Khan]

Atlas also said they would not become a PR site... so there's hope still.

Again, having a banner for a company that provides rubber for half the teams on the grid is marginally acceptable. But the 'Michelin's day' link is under the belt, as the only thing that denotes that this might be an ad (for someone who sees it for the first time) is it's color. It's just like the banner ads that pretend to be dialog boxes. That's Atlas quality going down a notch. What's next? On every news story about Jaguar / McLaren you will add the teams' websites as 'Related Links'?

And another question: is this a constant thing or just for the Canadian GP.

Khan.

[mach4]

Has anyone else also noted that all the drivers interviewed up to now (Juan Pablo Montoya, Ralph Schumacher, Luciano Burti, and Jean Alesi) drive with Michelin tyres? I wonder who will be interviewed next, Irvine?

[indysteve]

Michelin seems to think that the Indianapolis circuit was created in 1959! They are rather confused. The original oval was built in 1909, and the road course was completed in 2000. Not sure where they got 1959.

[Wolf]

I haven't been to the site since I haven't subscribed, but from what I read here it's pretty simple...

It's sponsor article on themselves. If that is obvious, I don't see the problem:
A. it is obvious who wrote it and why
B. it's not as if ATLAS was underhandely slipping sponsor's propaganda into articles
C. A. is sure way of never allowing B. to happen

[Khan]

Excellent, excellent point mach4.

Wolf
A. See the quote above from the announcement thread. They SAID they don't want to go to any large company for sponsorship and they don't want to become a PR site. Well they're certainly making a few steps towards it now.

B. See mach4's post. Also, the 'michelin's day' link is presented as part of the daily review links which are usually Atlas links. My initial thought (as that of many others I suppose) was that this link leads to an Atlas article. Well, that's not something you can call clean advertising.

C. Or so they would make you think.

Khan.

[Khan]

Originally posted by mach4
Has anyone else also noted that all the drivers interviewed up to now (Juan Pablo Montoya, Ralph Schumacher, Luciano Burti, and Jean Alesi) drive with Michelin tyres? I wonder who will be interviewed next, Irvine?

Issue 23, Jun 6th:
Jean Alesi's New Start (Prost are on Michelins)
The Point of Niki Lauda (Jaguar - Michelin)

Issue 22, May 30th:
Interview with Paul Stoddart (Minardi have Michelins)
Mike Gascoyne Q&A (Benetton have Michelins)
Motormouth Makes Good (about Mark Handford - Jaguar)

Issue 21, May 23rd:
The Optimist: Interview with Luciano Burti (Prost)

Issue 20, May, 16th: (the ANNOUNCEMENT issue)
Interview with Ralf (Williams - Michelin).

Has to be said that I checked most those articles, and none of them even mention the word Michelin (except Ralf interview).

Draw the conclusions yourself.

[Max Torque]

Why isn't bira or Paul responding to these accusations?

The thread has been here over a whole day.
Come on guys, at least give these people an answer.

[Khan]

Seems like Bira haven't been around the whole weekend - I guess she's at the GP, but Paul did have a few posts on the PC.

For the last two days I've been repeating in my mind all the things I want to ask Bira and other Atlas Editors about it. I'm on the verge of bursting ;). I'm surprised this thread got so little response from other AF1 subscribers. What, everyone lost steam in the 9 pages long thread 4 weeks ago?

Khan.

[babbel]

it's just a coincidence that the interviews are with michelin drivers.

The interviews have nothing to do with the michelin ad on the frontpage

[Khan]

No, babbel.

Even without the Michelin ad's, had anyone pointed out to me before that most of the interviews are about Michelin shod team members, it would have raised my eyebrow. But I would have just assumed that it would be easier to get an interview from someone in those teams because they also just happen to be the poorest teams.

But seeing the ads, adding 1 and 1 together, I am so very suspicious. Asking me to belive it's a coincidence is asking me to be naive. I'm sorry, I'd rather AF1 explain me their position rather than you asking me to believe your word.

They're not just interviews you know. If I wanted to be meticulous I could turn on this weeks article about Niki Lauda. It's not an interview, it's just an article, so it is automatically more susceptible to bias.
OK, so maybe the Niki Lauda is not a very good example.

Suppose the race tomorrow ends with Michael 1st and Ralf 2nd. And an hour after the podium Michelin appeal about the result of the race to the FIA, claiming that Michaels' Bridgestones were slicks by the end of the race.
Would you expect me to blindly believe that AtlasF1's coverage of such an event would be completely and totally unbiased?

Khan.

[Nomad]

And I thought it was Stuffed Beaver who was the sponsor..

[Alfisti]

I have toi say it surprised me after the earlier announcements. The reason for this will be interesting ... on the surface it does seem a tad hypocritcal.

[JuanF1]

With the PPV system, Atlas needed to create better content so they decided to get help from someone to do those interviews. Who better than Michelin?

[Khan]

Yes, but if they told us they were sponsored by Michelin before the 15th of May, I wonder how many of us would have signed up. The whole PPV idea was presented to us as a last resort - the other options were selling out or bankrupcy. Would you believe that presentation if you read it on a page with a Michelin ad on it? I mean it's not like it's Mom'n'Pops tyre shop is it, it's a tyre Giant.

Khan.

[Eli]

Until bira returns on Tuesday and gives you her view on this issue, I will tell you just one thing so you can sleep at night:

That Michelin ad did not make us rich and did not, nor any ad ever will, influence our content. Again, all the money we get goes straight into the magazine in order to improve it. Also, there is a very big difference between being sponsored and being influenced. Michelin does not have any influence in the Atlas F1 content and no, we haven't sold ourselves as some suggested. The fact that we get sponsorship doesn't man we are a PR site, and myself, I find the suggestion insulting.

Concerning the "Michelin interviews", as babbel said, it is just a coincidence, as time will prove.

Anyway, bira will come back on Tuesday and you'll get her reply.

[Khan]

It's not like I'm demanding the Michelin ads to be completely removed or something like that. It's not like I don't believe you when you say that you're not getting rich from it and that your content remains unaffected by the Michelin sponsorship. It just doesn't look too well.

What I am bothered by is the way of implementation, which, as I recall, was also the major sour point in the subscriptions announcement.

Besides some other major points that I can think of, here's one that bugs me. Since the subscriptions started many people (including myself) have signed up not only because of the content but also because of their wish to support Atlas. Since then there have been a few threads asking Bira for the subs counter - because we want to know how well you are doing. Ideally, a major (and this is very major) sponsorship deal for Atlas should be good news for all subscribers. But there were no news. Nobody announced anything. One day you log in to Atlas and find Bibendum smiling smugly at you.

Especially after saying that you didn't want to be associated with anyone - even though you have been approached by F1 teams - I think an announcement should have been in place, before the ads. At least in the AtlasF1 forum.

And you don't need to get insulted by suggestions of bias. All you need to do is reply and explain your position. (Granted, that's Bira's job, and she's away).

I'll brace myself for Tuesday then.;)


Khan.

[JuanF1]

I really don't mind if you get rich (I'd find it good because you have done such a great job) or if there are thousand of ads. I suppose many people agree with me and we only want Atlas not to be a PR site. Thanks Eli.

[100cc]

Wow, lots of response:)

I posted this thread just 'cause I did think it was a bit odd to see mr.michelin there when atlas had previously stated they didn't want to run ads that would make them seem biased(or something similar).

The add doesn't bother me at all, I don't even subscribe to atlas yet=). My father prefers pirelli's over michelins on his bike=). I just thought it was a bit weird to have a sponsor directly associated with several f1 teams to be sponsoring this site.


I also don't understand atlas' "we're not getting rich" comments. Who cares if you're getting rich or not?? What would it change if you did get rich??

[RedBaron]

Originally posted by Eli
That Michelin ad did not make us rich and did not, nor any ad ever will, influence our content. Again, all the money we get goes straight into the magazine in order to improve it. Also, there is a very big difference between being sponsored and being influenced. Michelin does not have any influence in the Atlas F1 content and no, we haven't sold ourselves as some suggested.

You mean like Michael Schumacher has no influence over Ferrari?
And they way BMW has no influence over Williams?

Yes, I see.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Eli
Anyway, bira will come back on Tuesday and you'll get her reply.

I'll just bet that some people get a reply alright. ;)

[Khan]

Heh Nik, not funny... :shaking:

To sum it up (a kind of a preemptive strike). Here are my questions to Bira:

But Atlas F1 has continuelly developed and is now in a stage where running it on a quality basis, and improving it, cannot happen without a backer.

We could have gone the Autorace route -- we had offers from F1 teams -- but we did not, do not and will not want to become a PR site of a subject we cover.

We could have sold out to a large corporation. I think not, thank you very much.

No, we prefer to pledge our allegiance to one backer, and one only -- the readers. We want to be in debt to the readers and not to any other party whose interests are not necessarily 'free press'.

1. In light of what you said in the subscription announcement thread (as quoted above) - why did you decide to be sponsored by Michelin?

(I use the term 'sponsored' as I don't know enough about advertising for a more correct term. My apologies.)

2. How and when was the sponsorship deal decided?

(If it was even thought of during the May announcement...)

3. For how long will AtlasF1 be sponsored by Michelin? Is it just for the Canadian GP, or a permanent thing?

4. Will Michelin's appearance on the website remain as it is now, or are we in for more surprises in the future?

5. In light of your experience from the 9 page response thread you've got 4 weeks ago, do you think that an announcement should have been in place some time before the adverts (at least in the BB)?

(Yes, I know that the response to this thread kinda counters my argument.)

6. Don't you find the 'Michelin's day' link just a tad bit misleading?

(You don't mingle PR in the content of the site, but you start to do it in the layout. The link appears right next to where the usual Atlas links are, and the one thing that differs it is the colour. You said that you and Paul take your inspiration from the printed media, and I can't think of any parallel to such form of advertising in printed magazines.)

7. Is the run of articles and interviews in the last few issues that cover members of Michelin shod teams just a coincidence? Or, to be more exact, can you promise us that Michelin will have zero influence on AtlasF1 content?

(And I want to differentiate between direct influence on the content and the influence of the people you have access to as an interviewer.)

8. Don't you think that it is somewhat counter-productive for you to advertise a rival Formula One website?

(Any new visitor to AtlasF1, first stumbling on the subs login, is immideately offered with a link to a free, hi tech, flashy website that certainly looks deep. I know that you will say that you have unique content and quality - but will he ever return to find out?)

9. Well, if you're not getting filthy rich from this, then how rich are you getting?

(j/k. I know, all money goes back to Atlas. You have said that you are willing to treat subscribers as shareholders and reveal AtlasF1's financial status at request. Well, I'm not asking for dollars and cents. I'm asking for something approximate. You said that your target is 5000 subs in the first year. How many subscribers have you 'saved' with the sponsorship deal? That is, how many subscribers do you need now to remain in the same financial situation as you planned? I know it's an unfair question but I'd rather ask this than ask for the financial figures.)


Thanks in advance for reading this. And please, there's no need to be insulted, all of the points above are there purely for clarification.

Khan.

[Mosquito]

Ok, I don't want to make too big an issue off it, but for instance the news page has 3 banners on it, and the Michellin banner seems to be returning on multiple Atlas pages. The magazine has 2 banners as well, etc...

I'm not on a holy war against banners, but I think they certainly deserve some explanation after the announcements concerning the subscription model. I especially find the Michellin banner a bit too flashy, the 'click here' nervous animation is certainly not my style of banner.

I can approve of some little banners, but I think the current amount is stretching it a bit.

[Khan]

Mos, I haven't noticed any ads on the inside pages of the Magazine (which is the only place where they are not supposed to be). News has 1 ad banner (the two small ones are for atlas).

[Mosquito]

Kahn, you can argue what's the ~inside~ or ~outside~. I regard the front page (which is the public entrance) the outside. The magazine and news home page I consider inside. You can effectively go to the magazine page without login in, but I see no use for that.

You can argue this logon or not-to-logon issue, but there's NO way for me to go to the main magazine without these banners. just stating that the main index pages LEADING to the banner free content are public and thus can have banners is a void argument IMHO.

I see no way to read the magazine without the banners, hence my mentioning of these banners.

[Mosquito]

PS: I did not count the GP tours (which is an affiliate (sp?) and not part of Atlas, so you could count that...) and MyAtlas, there's Michellin on top and network solutions on the bottom.

[Mosquito]

PSPS: To avoid confusion: I don't have THAT much problems with a little banner here and there, as long as they're NOT to prominent, and my main grudge is the 'Michelin day' link which is very deceptive.

[Khan]

What network solutions at the bottom? I don't see it on News. I've logged out and I still don't see it!

[Mosquito]

The news index at http://www.atlasf1.com/news/

There's no way to get a news index without banners. Simple.

[Khan]

I'm sorry Mosquito, there is no Networks Solutions ad banner on the bottom of the news index page. TTFN

[Mosquito]

Ok, maybe I'm the only one seeing it, but here's the bottom section of what I see.

[baddog]

Speaking entirely personally as always

It was stated from the beginning that all pages that are publicly accessible would have advertising space sold on them, but that no pages that can only be accessed by subscribers will have advertising.

I do agree that the michelins day link wasnt integrated in a good way as I would like it to have looked very different to the news links etc. Thats a matter of layout design rather than a huge conspiracy though

It was also stated (I think) that atlasf1 as a site will not become a sponsored site of an F1 corporate. I havent seen any hint that it has, canadas coverage was sponsored specifically.

as for those making insinuations over the unbiased nature of coverage.. well I can only presume you have not actually read atlasf1 news or articles very extensively. Michelin have hardly got their sneaky moneys worth is all I can say. very unworthy comments from people who should know better

Every F1 magazine you buy has advertising, often very extensively. Do you object to the full page glossy michelin ads in F1Racing magazine? do you view their articles as suspect because of it? of course not, so stop making mountains out of simple molehills.

shaun

[Mosquito]

Shaun,

I think noone is trying to make a mountian out of a mole hill. I think it's a valid question.

And about those adds, granted, printed magazines have ads, but I;m not sure if the equation is 1005 fair. Yes, you can visit the news index without login into the website, but it has no use if you're not logged in, it's merely a teaser.

I'm not perse against banners, but then at least I want to know what the guidelines / deals are concerning banners on 'semi-public' pages as long as there's no other way to access the news page as a subscriber then though the index including banners.

IMO, the michelin flashy banner is on the edge when it comes to annoying, I hate banners which draw too much attention and have 'click me' buttons and attention drawing animations.

And the 'Michelin link' we obviously agree on, I personally would like to see it removed, especially since we already have the banner ads of Michelin and since it mixes up magazine content and links and an advertisement in a deceptive way. (Intentional or not is not the issue)

That's all.

[100cc]

the michelin ads look like they're pay-per-click, so essentially, atlas is trying to trick us into clicking the ads, and the text links do look surpisingly much like they are a part of atlasf1, no probs with that, even porn sites do that all the time.

[bira]

This thread bewilders me.

What might have otherwise been a perfectly valid inquiry; what could have even evolved into a very interesting discussion on ethics, business model, etc; -- was instead completely clouted by a few incredibly slanderous and insulting remarks.

Upon reading this thread the first, second and third time I was inclined to simply ignore it. Yes, one or two rotten apples can indeed spoil a whole basket.

After a few hours of reflection I've decided to reply nonetheless, but only to a couple of points that were raised in a fashion that I believe warrants a reply. I will not dignify all else with any form of response.


1) As mentioned already, the Michelin links pointed to the Michelin F1 website. There was no editorial or content involvement from Atlas F1's side.

Moreover, the Atlas F1 editorial staff were unaware of this deal - as they are never aware of any financial deal. They saw it just like anyone else visiting the website.

Furthermore, Michelin has an advertising agency. The advertising agency buys media space and has bought such space on Atlas F1 before, for other clients, and will probably buy in the future more space as such.

2) Mosquito/100cc: as Already mentioned in the FAQ thread, ads will continue to appear on the open pages on Atlas F1. As I said there:

All banner ads were removed from the Magazine articles and from the News reports. We will carry advertisements ONLY on the public pages (eg the Bulletin Board, or the front pages).

Otherwise, ONLY Atlas F1 banners (eg the My Atlas banner) will be carried on the subscribers-only pages.

The front pages on Atlas F1 are: The website's front page, the News service front page, the Grapevine's front page, the Photo gallery's front page, etc.

In other words - if you do not need a subscription to access that page, then you will more than likely see an ad on it. We never said anything differently.

3) baddog: the "Michelin's Day" link WAS different than the editorial links, in fact exactly as you suggested -- in font, color, and bold-face.

4) 100cc: Atlas F1 doesn't accept pay-per-click advertisements. Payment for campaigns are made up front per time frame or other pre-determined variable (such as page views).

5) We will continue to turn down any offer that includes editorial involvement on our part. The Michelin campaign was not as such, and therefore we happily accepted it. With about a 1/3rd of our budget already now covered by subscription fees, we will continue making efforts in both routes, while allowing ourselves to be very picky on the kind of advertisers we would like to see on Atlas F1. Bibendum, however, was a welcome face.