48 replies to this topic

[Boniver]

Russian Racing before WO I
--------------

7 juni 1907
I. Moskau – St.Petersburg 646 km – Russian Automobel Club

1. Duray – Lorraine-Dietrich 9h21’
2. Folkin – Fiat 14h18’
3. Schwarz – Brasier 14h02’
4. ? ? ?
5. ? ? ? ?

------------------
1 juni 1908
II. St Petersburg – Moskau 686 km – Russian Automobel Club

Result and startlist OK

------------------

27.08.09
III . St Petersburg- Riga – St Petersburg 1066 Km – Russian Automobel Club

1. ? ? ? - Opel


------------

1910 ? ? ?
1911 ? ? ?
1912 ? ? ?
1913 ? ? ?
----------------

1914 Grand Prix de Russie ? ? ? ?

1. ? ?
2. ? ?
3. A.Duray - Metallurgique

------------------
Who have more info of this Russian race

[Boniver]

http://www.geocities...v/chUSSR-1.html

1914 Grand Prix de Russie ? ? ? ?

1. ? ?
2. ? ?
3. A.Duray - Metallurgique

WAS MABY

18 mei 1914 GP of St Petersburg

1. Willi Schoell - Dt - Benz

[Flicker]

Boniver!
I'l post the results in a few hours...

[Flicker]

BTW, as far as I know You can find quite correct results about 1908 Race here: http://www.fortuneci...1925/1908rf.htm

1908 St.Petersburg-Moscow
19 May (old style) - St. Petersburg-Moscow: 438.25 miles


1 3 Victor Hemery F Benz 8:33'48" Class I
2 1 Victor Demogeot F Darracq 8:44'00" Class I
3 13 Louis Wagner F FIAT 9:49'48" Class II
4 23 Fokin Alexander RUS FIAT 12:36'00" Class III
5 30 Otto Hieronymus A-Hun Laurin-Klement 13:03'00" Class IV
6 25 Primavesi I Diatto-Clement 13:08'12" Class III
7 24 Tschoudoff RUS Berliet 13:17'48" Class III
8 Ïîóï GB Itala 13:47'30" Class I
9 16 Eros I SPA 14:29'00" Class II
10 17 Buchner D NAG 16:01'12" Class II

Retirements:
Class I (four Cylinder cars above 130mm bore)
6 Bichoff Argus
7 Henry Rougier Lorraine-Dietrich
4 Arthur Duray Lorraine-Dietrich
11 Charles Jarrott Lorraine-Dietrich
8 Jean Porporato Berliet
10 Lescur Mercedes
2 Vincenzo Florio FIAT
5 Bosarde FIAT
Class II (four cylinder cars from 107 to 130 mm bore)
15 Adalline Berliet
12 Vetchinin Brasier
18 Mikhailoff Berliet
19 de Langhe Darracq
14 Jemlitchka Berliet
Class III (four cars from 87 to 106 mm bore)
20 de Barres La Buire
21 Schuster Humber
22 Lundberg Nagant
Class IV (four cylinder cars up to 86 mm bore)
28 Schlicht Loreley
27 Boutchin Laurin-Klement
26 Effron Werner
32 entrants, 27 starters

[Flicker]

Here is the results of 1914 St.Petersburg GP:



(1st column - driver, 2nd -Country, 3rd - car,than starting No. and lap by lap chart,the last one - result)

Sorry, names only in russian (now).




1914 Willy Schoel - winner

[Flicker]

The race in 1913 was held in the same place as in 1914.

25th of May? 1913.
Distance: 7 laps x 199,5 (versts) [1 russian versta=1066 meters)
1. G.Suvorin RUS Benz 29/60 2:23.54.6
2. I.Ivanov RUS Russo-Balt C24-58 - 2.56.4
3. R.Notomb RUS Metallurgique 27/80 - 5.24.4
4. A.Duray F Metallurgique 15/20 - 26.21.8
5. F.Efron RUS Vauxhall-A - 41.40.4


Winner - Suvorin in the Benz (Su.. - read "u" as in "moon")



Duray (on the right)

[Boniver]

Petersburg-Riga-Petersburg
27 to 31 aug 1909

1000 werst

start

Klasse 1 >125mm
Surmez Opel
Pousiref Durkopp
Lucand Rocket Schneider
Veiner Pipe

Klasse 2 to 125 mm
Russisches Kriegsministerium Benz
Poliakoff Berliet
Baron Wolf Mercedes

Klasse 3 to 110 mm
Dogne Mercedes
X Russo Baltic
Doubrovitch RAF
Leutner Adler
Schwartz Mercedes Lessner
Erle Benz

Klasse 4 to 100 mm
Schneideroff Ford
Mordvinoff Pipe
Wsewolojsky Pipe

Klasse 5
Fokine Fiat
Kirchten Hambert
Hertig Gaggenau
Deringer Humbert
Leutner Adler
Walensky Gaggenau
Opel Humbert

[Boniver]

Flicker,

Wonderful this info,

Yes names in russian …..

From Europa start
Duray (Bel/VS/Fr) in 1913
d’Argentine (Italie) and Schoel (Dt) in 1914


Very match car were from Europa

Excelsior and Metallurgique from Belgium
Benz and RAF from German
Vauxhall and Sumbeam from GB
Aquila Italia from Italie

The Pycco bart and Hupmobile ? ? ? ? Russian cars ? ? ? ?


No more info of the race from 1907 or 1909

[mhferrari]

I know this is quite unrelated, but what type of racing occurred during communism. All I know is of Formula Vostok in the 1980's.

[Vitesse2]

While we're waiting for Flicker to reply... I do know there was an Eastern European F3 series from the late 50s to the early 70s: the Estonian TARK and East German Melkus were among the cars raced and IIRC there was at least one race a year in the USSR.
Motoring News in the UK used to carry occasional reports from behind the Iron Curtain, but I'm afraid I no longer have those...

[Marcor]

"Remember" the rumour of an appearence of Russian cars in British F1 races in 1958 and 1959. Those two years the organisers of the Silverstone International Trophy announced a possible participation of Russian racing cars in their races.

You know that the organisers were helped by a newspaper, the Daily Express. The paper published some pictures of Russian cars. It was in fact the Kharkov VI, an aerodynamic 6-cylinder car which apparently conformed to F1 and had achieved 175 mph on a 6-mile course in the hands of Valiery Nitikin. The car was a special built for record-breaking.

Mike Lawrence in "Grand Prix cars 1945-1965" has written 3 paragraphs about the Kharkov but concluded that, as a Grand Prix car, the Kharkov is a myth". He also said that the Kharkov received a lot of publicity in Britain, not only in specialist magazines but also in the national press.

I would add that it was not only in Britain but also in Belgium that the picture(s) was (were) published. I've seen in "Les Sports" (dated from March 58 and also 1959) some articles about the "Russian F1 cars" and the famous Kharkov 6 picture. The journalist who wrote those articles clearly admitted that he used British sources.

The funniest argument was that some Russian tennismen were going to play at Wimbledon ! If the tennismen went, why not the F1 drivers !!!

[sat]

In fact war another tread about races in USSR not so far ago. Internationaly was for "people democratic" lands championship called "Cup for Peace and Friendship" in Formula Junior/F3/Formula Easter and Touring cars with about four races in year. It begins in early sixties.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The 1908 race from St. Petersburg to Moscow, won by Victor Héméry (Benz) on 19. May has been mentioned in several books.

But how about the 1907 event St. Petersburg-Moscow, which appears in GRAND PRIX RACING Facts and Figures by George Monkhouse and Roland King-Farlow?
1. A. Duray (Lorraine-Dietrich)
2. Champoiseau (C.G.V.)
3. Folkin (F.I.A.T.)

I cannot find another source with back-up information. No date, distance or speed. Does anybody have information, possibly in the Braunbeck Lexicon?

[Vitesse2]

The Georgano Encyclopaedia gives a distance of 438.25 miles (705.29km) for both 1907 and 1908, giving Duray as the winner in a Lorraine-Dietrich. However, as King-Farlow says 438 miles for 1908 only, perhaps that's just an assumption (entry signed by Vladimir Havranek, if that helps you Hans).

There is also a reference to a circuit race at St Petersburg in 1898 won by a Russian driver called Mazi in a Panhard at 24km/h, and a 1902 event organised by the journal Automobile on 39.77ml (64km) route from Krasnoye Selo to Gatchina and back, won by Suromec in a Georges Richard at 27.79mph (44.78km/h).

On the other hand:
The entry for Duray says he didn't win in 1907 at all and there's no mention of the event in the De Dietrich entry. The entry for CGV says the 1905 Gordon Bennett trials were the end of the firm's competition career. The Fiat entry does mention Folkin's third place as rounding off an excellent season, but perhaps that's just "received wisdom"?
Certainly CGV didn't run in the 1906 or 1907 GP de l'ACF and Champoiseau is better known as a driver of Th. Schneider cars later in the pre-1914 period. I've never come across Folkin anywhere else, but as it sounds like a Russian name, perhaps that's not surprising, and I have no pretensions to being an expert on this period!

[sat]

It was 26 starters in 1907.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by sat
It was 26 starters in 1907.

I think Hans might want to know where your source is for that, Sat!

[Hans Etzrodt]

Thanks for all your help, gentlemen. Does anybody have the date?


sat,
Can you please reveal your source?

[sat]

Yes I do, it is from book about History of Soviet autosport, issued in Vilnius 1976. Autores are L. Shugurov and A. Kurdzinauskas. Race was hels in May? Average speed of winner was 73,5 kmh. No more info...

[Hans Etzrodt]

sat,
By any chance would you be so kind and translate the proper title of the ‘History of Soviet Autosport’ book by L. Shugurov and A. Kurdzinauskas, published in Vilnius 1976.

What makes you think the race was held in May? Any clues?

[sat]

The title is:
Automobile sport in SSSR
Guide

Vilnius "Mintis" 1976

In chapter "Chronicle of events in history of domestic autosport" is:

May 1907. In first russian international autorace started 26. Winner was A.Duray (France) in Lorraine-Dietrich with average speed 73,5 kmh.

[Hans Etzrodt]

sat,
Thank you very much. You supplied very good information here, because now it sounds very accurate. The problem with some of these old races is that available information comes incomplete and we try to assemble all little snippets we can get hold of and put them together like a jigjaw-puzzle. I have done that before and have on occasions been lucky in seeing a much more complete picture than I would have had from just one or two sources.

As soon as I finish a few projects here, I will be back with the pre-war Czechoslovakian mountain climbs, to carry on with Roman what he started in the Ecce-Homo thread.

[Boniver]

see


http://www.atlasf1.c...?threadid=23662

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Boniver
.....7 juni 1907
I. Moskau – St.Petersburg 646 km – Russian Automobel Club

1. Duray – Lorraine-Dietrich 9h21’
2. Folkin – Fiat 14h18’
3. Schwarz – Brasier 14h02’.......

Boniver,
Can you please reveal your source for above information? And where did you get the date from?

[Boniver]

Hans,

Braunbeck's and
La Revue de l'Automobile - Paris 1912 article Automobile Club de Russie - St Petersburg (P A O)

but I think that the USSR had not the same calendar than
Europe before 19??

I think that
1 juni 1908 Europe was 19 may 1908 USSR

Flicker can you help ???

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Boniver
.....La Revue de l'Automobile - Paris 1912 article Automobile Club de Russie - St Petersburg (P A O)

Bonivier,
Do you know if this magazine was published weekly or monthly and which number or issuue and page, so the information can be looked up in a library, or can you send me a scan with an e-mail?

Originally posted by Boniver
.....but I think that the USSR had not the same calendar than
Europe before 19??

I think that
1 juni 1908 Europe was 19 may 1908 USSR.....

Bonivier,
What makes you think that Russia had a different calendar in 1907 than the rest of the world?

[sat]

Is generally kmown up to communist state was in Russia old (Julian) callender, that come from Russian Church and that had it bis today. It is difference about two weeks, so Great October Socialist Revolution was 7 November 1917 in fact.

[Boniver]

Hans,

I think at school,

see

http://russiancultur...dar/?once=true



the new julian calendar adopted in 1923

but details

[Boniver]

http://www.hacom.nl/...n/kalender.html

Hans,

In 1923 had Russia 13 days less and had so the same calander als Europe

[Hans Etzrodt]

sat and Boniver,
Thank you for enlightening me about the different calendars. I did not know that.

[fines]

Hans, I'm a little bit disappointed! I know that the American school education is not the best in the world, but you were raised in Germany, so that reflects badly on us!

[Hans Etzrodt]

I must have been sick that day, when they talked about that subject.

[fines]

... the usual excuse!

[Hans Etzrodt]

I was a usual pupil, nothing extraordinary. Therefore my explanation should be acceptable.

[Boniver]

8 mei 1914 St.Petersburg GP (Rusland) ( 2x )

7 x 199,5 versts (1 v = 1066 m)

1. Willy Schoell Dt Benz 1h48.32
2. S. Ozsiouokoz Rus Vauxhall 1h59.03
3. Beria d’Argentine It Aquila Italia 2h01.40
4. A. Spoubsky Rus Excelsior 2h17.10
5. Raiezsky Rus Vauxhall 2h29.32
6. F. Vobotsoko Rus Hupmobile 2h59.57
7. Sokopoz Rus Agill

DNF

Ghisser Rus Benz
I. Ivanov Rus Russo Baltic
Salmker Rus Sunbeam
Samsomoza Rus Hupmobile
Gh. Verp Rus Hupmobile
Neumaier Dt Th. Schneider
A. Ghrebemuikoz Rus Buick
Sokopoz Rus Agill
Jakoila Rus NAG

[quintin cloud]

Excellent

[dmj]

Racing scene in Russia during comunism wasn't very prolific but there were several races, like Leningrad GP for sportcars in late 50's (won by Skoda prototype sold on auction of Duncan Rabagliatti's collection a few years ago).
Skoda also made a F3 in 60's, exposed in Prague Technical museum along with a Lotus F3 from same period (does it mean some western cars were included in east european F3 series?)
BTW in same museum you can see a Mercedes W159, unrestored, with cracking golden (?!) paint and wonderful patina.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by dmj
.....in same museum you can see a Mercedes W159, unrestored, with cracking golden (?!) paint and wonderful patina.

dmj,
You probably meant a W154, the 1939 Mercedes!

[dmj]

Of course it is a W154, sorry, I was in a hurry... But why it is golden? Does anybody know?
I also forgot to mention well developed east european rally scene - Skoda's efforts are well known but Moskvitch, Wartburg and Trabant also had strong factory presence in European rallies of 60's and 70's. Later, in 80's several east european top drivers raced Renault 5 turbos, and there were much more interesting rally cars

[rod]

"Remember" the rumour of an appearence of Russian cars in British F1 races in 1958 and 1959. Those two years the organisers of the Silverstone International Trophy announced a possible participation of Russian racing cars in their races.

You know that the organisers were helped by a newspaper, the Daily Express. The paper published some pictures of Russian cars. It was in fact the Kharkov VI, an aerodynamic 6-cylinder car which apparently conformed to F1 and had achieved 175 mph on a 6-mile course in the hands of Valiery Nitikin. The car was a special built for record-breaking.

Mike Lawrence in "Grand Prix cars 1945-1965" has written 3 paragraphs about the Kharkov but concluded that, as a Grand Prix car, the Kharkov is a myth". He also said that the Kharkov received a lot of publicity in Britain, not only in specialist magazines but also in the national press.

I would add that it was not only in Britain but also in Belgium that the picture(s) was (were) published. I've seen in "Les Sports" (dated from March 58 and also 1959) some articles about the "Russian F1 cars" and the famous Kharkov 6 picture. The journalist who wrote those articles clearly admitted that he used British sources.

I've heard about these 'famous' Daily Express pictures before. But has anyone actually got the pictures? Or the Daily Express article? Or any of the other articles about the Kharkov?

[Flicker]

Kharkov-6 was built by engineer Vladimir Nikitin (1911-1992).
This was the development of his succesful Kharkov-3 recordbreaking car.


Kharkov-3


Kharkov-6

Its engine, based on Pobeda's agregate, had two valved head and one (later two) compressors. 1970 cc, 4-cilinder, apprx.200 h.p. at 6000 rev. Weight - 1000 kgs. Max speed -282 km/h (10 December 1953 on the public road Simpheropol-Djankoy in Crimea: aggregate in two directions - 280,156 km/h).

Later, Nikitin was responsible for the supersonic HADI-9 record breaker project.


P.S.
And, please, don't forget that Soviet Union joined F.I.A. only on the 15th October of 1956.

P.P.S. And for sure... they are not formula cars.

[leegle]

It might not have gone so well when they took off the supercharger to run it in F1!;)

[Roger Clark]

Its engine, based on Pobeda's agregate

What is Pobeda's agregate?

[dmj]

pobeda was a large Russian car, made during '40s and '50s, and well until '70s in poland as Warszawa. See more at:
www.autogallery.org.ru/gaz20.htm

Maybe you'll wait some time to load it, but it should be worth.

[rod]

P.P.S. And for sure... they are not formula cars.

That much would appear to be obvious. So obvious, in fact, that it is is difficult to understand how the 'formula 1' rumours came about in the first place.

My first thoughts were, either

a) typical cold-war Russian propaganda -
No - Any propaganda value in saying "we've got a formula 1 car' is bound to be negated by the car failing to show
or
b) a completely made-up story by the Daily Express -
No - it's not totally unknown these days for a newspaper to fabricate a story out of nothing, but didn't thay have slightly more integrity in the 50's? And what would be the point in making up such an incredible story? And why include pictures which actually disprove it?

So, I'm inclined towards the theory that the Daily Express story was indeed based on information from a credible source (Silverstone?) that there WAS a possibility of a Russian entry. Maybe not from Kharkov, though. Given that the Kharkov record runs were in 1953, it is highly probabe that the Express already had the pictures in their archive, and included them in the formula 1 story merely as an illustration of 'a fast Russian car', with no implication that this was actually the formula 1 car.

That is why I'd like to see the original Daily Express article, to find out what they actually did say. But it still begs the question - there must have been some approach from some Russian constructor to the the Silverstone organisers for the story to be circulated in the first place. Mustn't there?

[anjakub]

Oryginally posted by Boniver
1. Willy Schoell Dt Benz 1h48.32
2. S. Ozsiouokoz Rus Vauxhall 1h59.03
3. Beria d’Argentine It Aquila Italia 2h01.40
4. A. Spoubsky Rus Excelsior 2h17.10
5. Raiezsky Rus Vauxhall 2h29.32
6. F. Vobotsoko Rus Hupmobile 2h59.57
7. Sokopoz Rus Agill
(Post 24)


The Pycco bart and Hupmobile ? ? ? ? Russian cars ? ? ? ?
(Post 8)

Congratulations Boniver
Good idea, but translation is a little funny. Russian characters are different.

Please, this is my attempt of translation. I learnt russian language ten years in primary school, college and institute of technology.

1914 St.Petersburg GP

1. Willy Scholl (Germany) Benz 1h48.32
2. S. Owsyannikov (Russia) Vauxhall 1h59.03
3. Beria d’Argentine (Italy) Aquila Italia 2h01.40
4. A. Slubskij (Russia) Excelsior 2h17.10
5. Rajevskij (Russia) Vauxhall 2h29.32
6. F. Boboschko (Russia) Hupmobile 2h59.57
7. Sokolov (Russia) Agill

DNF
Ghisser (Russia) Benz
I. Ivanov (Russia) Russo Balt
Sadyker (Russia) Sunbeam
Samsonova (Russia) Hupmobile (lady driver! see names ending -ova)
Gh. Vern (Russia) Hupmobile
Neugebauer (Germany) Th. Schneider
A. Gryebyenschtchykov (Russia) Buick
Jamoyda (Russia) NAG (read „Ja” as in french name Jean)


Russo Balt was a russian car, manufactured in Russo Baltijskij Wagonnyj Zawod in Riga in years 1909-1915. Together produced about 500 machines.
Hupmobile – american car (1908-1941).

[Boniver]

anjakub

thanks, stap by stap,

[Boniver]

Neugebauer (Germany) Th. Schneider

it was

NEUMAIER

[Rob29]

Originally posted by anjakub




1914 St.Petersburg G

Samsonova (Russia) Hupmobile (lady driver! see names ending -ova)


Hupmobile – american car (1908-1941).

Anything else known about this person? My special area of research is female race drivers.Only know of one other before WW1,apart from 'ladies only' Brooklands handicaps.

[scheivlak]

Anything else known about this person? My special area of research is female race drivers.Only know of one other before WW1,apart from 'ladies only' Brooklands handicaps.

I guess it's this lady: http://www.earlyavia...om/esamsono.htm