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F1 entries that never made it


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#301 petefenelon

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 12:49

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I'm sure Felix will soon be on here to give us the concise English version - and also to tell us that Argentinian M.N. "F1" wasn't quite the same as the F1 we all know...

Oh, I'm sure I'm missing the point here, but all these cars did race, didn't they?


Far as I can tell MN allowed 3-litre cars with racing engines at 575kgs and 4-litre stockblocks at 675kgs. I assume that the 3-litre cars would at least nominally qualify for F1 (although they'd be pretty heavy) even if they weren't built for it.

pete

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#302 ghinzani

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 19:34

How mouth watering are they?? I notice theres one called a Crespi - I used to work with the son of Crespi, Luciano. They build formula cars in Balcarce and I rememeber him telling me one day his family made Argentinian national F1 cars. Cant wait for Felix to get us a translation !!

and those Maser 250's or whatever with slicks and wings!! incredeeeblah!! remind me of Hercs Mallard Indycar.

#303 petefenelon

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 19:39

Originally posted by ghinzani
How mouth watering are they??


Very! - there's a Tornado-engined 250F in there, too!

#304 ghinzani

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 19:45

Pete , great minds and all that, I was just editing my original post to mention them when you posted!! Imagine driving one of those beasts!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

#305 fines

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 15:21

Very interesting!

And those cars look really... awesome!

Allen, is your Spanish improving?;)

#306 Racer.Demon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 08:44

I think Guido needs to tell us more about the Riviera here...

#307 Racer.Demon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 08:48

And while on the subject of Italian non-entries, does he know more about an Arno-Motori Moderni that was supposed to run in the mid-eighties? It was designed by AGS and funded by Piero Mancini, a Florence (hence 'Arno' of course) Fiat dealer, a Minardi business partner funding Chiti's project. Anything in Autosprint on that one?

See also http://www.grandprix.../eng-motor.html

#308 ghinzani

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 08:57

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
And while on the subject of Italian non-entries, does he know more about an Arno-Motori Moderni that was supposed to run in the mid-eighties? It was designed by AGS and funded by Piero Mancini, a Florence (hence 'Arno' of course) Fiat dealer, a Minardi business partner funding Chiti's project. Anything in Autosprint on that one?

See also http://www.grandprix.../eng-motor.html


That was the AGS-moderni that Capelli drove, Mario Hytten was supposed to be the driver and brought the Jolly Club on board.

#309 Racer.Demon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 09:05

So you are implying that the Renault-based JH21C and the Arno are in fact the same?

#310 canon1753

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 18:53

After reading this entire section 2 comments:

Viva la difference! There is a lot of creativity. The Argentinian cars are great! Maybe CART or the IRL could use That formula. It would be interesting!

2. The Dywa looks like a precursor to the Brabham BT52 and the Tyrrell 012. Not good however in the sliding skirt era that it was built in!

#311 canon1753

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 18:55

Sorry. One last comment. I remember reading about the front engined Arrows F1 IN A CHILDRENS BOOK!!!! :eek: F1 knowlege for the little people.

#312 ghinzani

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 19:07

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
So you are implying that the Renault-based JH21C and the Arno are in fact the same?


Stateing for sure - Arno were the Italian F3 team who had built some of their own chassis. Thye took on the running of Hyttens F3000 car (owned by albert obrist, the ferrari collector) in 1986 with the intention of running him in the F1 AGS via money provided by the Jolly Club.

#313 Racer.Demon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 19:42

Originally posted by ghinzani


Stateing for sure - Arno were the Italian F3 team who had built some of their own chassis.


You mean this one?

http://www.allferrar...rs/mccalde.html

In that case I can see how the bits of the puzzle fit together - and why the text in the Grand Prix Encyclopedia at grandprix.com is ambiguous, to say the least. It is implying a chassis separate to the JH21C.

#314 ghinzani

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 20:40

Thats the one!

#315 Racer.Demon

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 09:32

Thanks to various people on several Dutch forums (you know who you are) here's another interesting addition - the Dutch Arno F1 car from the early seventies.

My short search was started off by Rafa Reyna on the Spanish forum, who posted this, including a very interesting picture:

http://www.thef1.com...topic.php?t=407

Thanks to the aforementioned people I have now established the following facts:

Dutchman Arno van Dijk was a West-Brabant car dealer with a dream that he first presented on the national sports TV programme, Studio Sport - a Dutch GP car. First plans were laid out as early as 1972. After the car was built it was demonstrated at the Trophy of the Dunes event at Zandvoort on August 30, 1973. Others say it wasn't demonstrated in the flesh but simply presented and kept under covers most of the time. At that moment it carried a F5000 engine taken from a Ford GT40. The plan was to replace that with a Tecno V8 or V12, but the Tecno engine never materialized, after which the car's final public appearance happened as part of a carnival parade... In December 1973, the Arno resurfaced at the Jochen Rindt exhibition, amidst rumours of a link-up with Alfa Romeo and an entry for the 1974 Spanish GP, with Dutch touring-car ace Peter van Zwan driving, but again these faded very quickly, as did the 1975 Le Mans entry for an Arno-Cosworth 2-litre sportscar to be driven by Manfred Mohr and Han Akersloot.

(Suddenly my sudden interest in that other Arno outfit becomes apparent, doesn't it? :lol: )

#316 ghinzani

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 09:40

Never heard of that one - thanks for the link, but its all Dutch to me... :lol:

#317 Racer.Demon

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 09:44

:lol:

That's why all the information in Rafa's post is also part of the English summary I wrote above...

#318 dretceterini

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 21:14

Two amusing marques are CTA and SEFAC. Stories are on 8W..

#319 Reyna

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 07:23

Some interesting links to the Spanish Forum...

Sorry, i can't traslate to english !!!

Dommartin, 1.947

Giaur, 1.954

DB F1, 1.955

Nardi F2 (F1??), 1.956

Serenissima F1, 1.969

Matra MS11/12, 1.969/70

Bizarrini F1, 1.974

Dywa F1. 1.974, 1.979 and 1.980

Safir F1, 1.975

Kojima KE009B, 1.978

Rafa

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#320 roger_valentine

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 13:47

Wow ... Bizzarrini ! So, news of the Toutou grows ever closer.

Thank you Rafa for those excellent links.

Re Nardi - is the 1952 date then completely false? (The source for this date being, I believe, Mike Lawrence's 'GP Cars 1945-65').

#321 Reyna

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 14:27

Originally posted by roger_valentine
Re Nardi - is the 1952 date then completely false? [/B]

I really don't know !!!
There was an article in the french magazine l'Automobile that shows the photographs of the Nardi F2 with the Aurelia engine in 1.956 (?)

#322 Teapot

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 17:51

According to the "Search" facility nobody mentioned here the Lamborghini-engined Mclaren tested by Senna and Hakkinen in the late 1993...

#323 Megatron

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 18:56

I think if it ran in a race, it would certainly have been a McLaren Chrysler. It is now...sorta with the takeover by Mercedes Benz.

#324 dolomite

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 19:04

Originally posted by Teapot
According to the "Search" facility nobody mentioned here the Lamborghini-engined Mclaren tested by Senna and Hakkinen in the late 1993...


http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=59938 :wave:

#325 Teapot

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 19:50

Thanks, Dolomite :up:

#326 Henk

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 13:22

Originally posted by Reyna
I really don't know !!!
There was an article in the french magazine l'Automobile that shows the photographs of the Nardi F2 with the Aurelia engine in 1.956 (?)

Rafa - A 1956-57 date for the Nardi-Lancia is not correct. The car already featured in 1952 magazines, such as the Dutch AutoRevue of 21-08-52.
Your first photograph (showing Enrico Nardi at the wheel) is also reproduced in Nardi – a story of cars and steering-wheels by Franco Varisco, who wrote:

In 1952 Nardi attempted the ambitious road to Formula 1 without much succes. He did this, by starting out with a Lancia Aurelia engine mounted centrally at the rear as in modern monopostos. Gianni Lancia was very interested in this rather insane project but refrained from making any direct criticism.
The engine was “born” with six Dell’Orto carburettors which gave an initial power output of 110 cv, When quad-bodied versions were used, power went up to 140 cv. As far as the chassis was concerned, a solid tubular frame weighing 49.5 kgs was used. Front suspension came from the Aurelia and was duly modified while the rear end used a “Nardi” set-up with “A”-arms and a transverse leaf spring. The aluminium coachwork was made by Motto.
During those years (1952-53) the F.1 rules laid down 2000 cc normally aspirated or 500 cc supercharged engines. Ascari’s 185 cv “500” Ferrari dominated the scene. The Nardi F.1 never reached such limits and the monoposto which should have made its debut in September 1952 went into retirement without ever having experienced the exhileration of the race track.


#327 petefenelon

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 13:28

Originally posted by Megatron
I think if it ran in a race, it would certainly have been a McLaren Chrysler. It is now...sorta with the takeover by Mercedes Benz.



Ah, but these days the Lambo engine would probably be have been badged Audi or Bugatti or something by VAG ;P

"McLaren-Bugatti" has a certain anachronistic ring to it doesn't it?;)

#328 petefenelon

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 13:33

While this thread's still alive - any chance of linking the pics of the "last Lotus" from the recent thread to the 112's entry on the 8w page?

cheers!

#329 petefenelon

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 13:47

Originally posted by Megatron
I think if it ran in a race, it would certainly have been a McLaren Chrysler. It is now...sorta with the takeover by Mercedes Benz.



Ah, but these days the Lambo engine would probably be have been badged Audi or Bugatti or something by VAG ;P

"McLaren-Bugatti" has a certain anachronistic ring to it doesn't it?;)

#330 Racer.Demon

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 14:01

Originally posted by petefenelon
While this thread's still alive - any chance of linking the pics of the "last Lotus" from the recent thread to the 112's entry on the 8w page?


I'd say there's a fair chance of that - if you point me to them... ;)

#331 petefenelon

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 14:07

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


I'd say there's a fair chance of that - if you point me to them... ;)


http://forums.atlasf...light=Lotus 112 for a thread on it

http://www.geocities...2000/Lotus.html for some pictures.

ta!

#332 Macca

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 13:44

The Parnell (or rather, a Parnell) was mentioned in a list early on, but can anyone add any more?

I believe they had started to order bits for a car in 1963, but ran the Lotus 25s instead in 1964-5 - was that because of Reg's death?

Then they put a Climax-4 into one of their 25s for 1966, but I've never seen a picture.

They also converted a 25 into a Formula 2 with an FVA for 1967, which also did a couple of races, but likewise no picture that I know of.

In early 1968 in the 'Motor Racing' magazine preview of the season there was a picture of a Parnell-BRM car under construction, said to have cost very little money up to that stage. I've studied the photo to try and see if it's really a 25, but couldn't tell one way or the other. BUT one of the 25s did later have a BRM V12 installed for a while, but has been restored to original C-C power.

Any further light on these, or can anybody point me towards and pictures in old mags?



Paul Mackness

#333 Macca

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 16:24

As usual I didn't search diligently enough at first - the 1968 monocoque came up here:

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=40874

"Regarding the 3-litre Parnell-BRM - this was an unraced monocoque chassis built for Tim by Bruce Macintosh - now with McLaren Cars - who adopted Lotus 25-type front bulkhead assembly etc. This is what caused the misidentification problem, long before I was allowed to examine it. Allen is quite right, it was more cock-up than conspiracy (at least initially) and raised the question 'OK if this was not the ex-Lotus-BRM 25, what the hell became of it... '?

But the surviving monocoque in question is Parnell/Macintosh made and is NOT a Lotus 25 nor 33. And when it comes to various books having made the claim that this was a 25 - mine was the FIRST of them. We believed this to be true at the time, and not having the opportunity to examine the chassis saw this erroneous claim made in print. Ultimately my fault.

DCN"

So what about the other 25 that had a V12 BRM, and the 25s with C-C FPF and F2 FVA engines? Any pictures?


PWM

#334 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 22:46

In a somewhat belated reply to Racer.demon, here are some pictures from the book Autodesign in Nederland of the Arno. There are a few more details in the text as well.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#335 Racer.Demon

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 22:54

Oh, wow! Thanks, Henk! :clap:

I'd still like to track down Arno van Dijk, and found on Saturday that Mischa Bijenhof has taken on exactly the same plan. I'm sure that after his Kozarowitsky stunt he can do anything, so hopefully I'll just latch on to his efforts... ;)

And oh, he's already gone through all the Van Dijks in the Breda area - in true Michael-Oliver-trying-to-locate-Jim-Crawford style - but none of them are car dealers. So if anyone has a clue, then please?

#336 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 23:40

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel
In a somewhat belated reply to Racer.demon, here are some pictures from the book Autodesign in Nederland of the Arno. There are a few more details in the text as well.

Posted Image


Making full use of the domestic product there...

#337 Frank de Jong

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 08:37

If one of you get to Autonet this saturday, make sure you talk to Gijs van Beusekom (Ellen's partner in the shop on saturday) - he was involved in the Arno project back then.

#338 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 09:40

Didnt Van Dijk have a petrol station?? I searched a while ago, but failed (me is ashamed!) :o


Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Oh, wow! Thanks, Henk! :clap:

I'd still like to track down Arno van Dijk, and found on Saturday that Mischa Bijenhof has taken on exactly the same plan. I'm sure that after his Kozarowitsky stunt he can do anything, so hopefully I'll just latch on to his efforts... ;)

And oh, he's already gone through all the Van Dijks in the Breda area - in true Michael-Oliver-trying-to-locate-Jim-Crawford style - but none of them are car dealers. So if anyone has a clue, then please?



#339 Pat Clarke

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 10:26

Quote Hank Vasmal regarding the Arno................." here are some pictures from the book Autodesign in Nederland of the Arno. There are a few more details in the text as well."

These pix have gone straight into my "Design Errors" folder for when I address FSAE students. I doubt I have ever seen so many fundamental design and construction errors on any car. I would not pass that car through scrutineering on safety grounds! I count more than 10 serious safety breaches.
Pat Clarke

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#340 Racer.Demon

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 11:32

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
If one of you get to Autonet this saturday, make sure you talk to Gijs van Beusekom (Ellen's partner in the shop on saturday) - he was involved in the Arno project back then.


Or simply call the shop! (Did you get that, Mischa?) :D

Pat: please enlighten us...

#341 Pat Clarke

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 11:46

Racer, I will, but let's see if we get a few comments first? I'll check in again tomorrow.
I looked again at the pix and saw a couple more horrors!
Look carefully, it is unlikely that car could do more than a couple of laps without failure.
And, I dread the thought of crashing it. Take a look at the rollover protection.
Pat

#342 Pat Clarke

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 12:15

Racer, Just remembered, I have to go out tomorrow evening, so here is my list to start with.

Safety Issues:

1. Rod ends loaded in bending at the outer end of both front wishbones. Bump forces will break off the bottom one and brake torque will wring off both top and bottom.

2. No washers under the rod ends (mounted in single shear with a big offset on the upper one). The ball can thus pull out of the rod end and over the bolt head.

3. The lower inner wishbone bracket has a huge overhang and appears to be riveted to the tub with less than 20 cheap 'Pop' rivets! The front row of those rivets are mounted through the skin on the outside of the structure (On the front flange)

4. The outer end of the toe links is attached to the steering arm in single shear and again there is no captive washer.

5. None of the visible 'nylok' nuts has the requisite bolt threads showing.

6 At the back of the car, the roll hoop is attached to the chassis, yet the support is bolted to the engine. In the event of a crash where the engine comes out (not uncommon in F5000) the rollbar goes with the engine!

7. The rear of the roll hoop support is terminated with a rod end, again in single shear with no captive washer.

8. This retaining bolt has no locking system (loctite?) to prevent it backing out.

9. Worse still, this bolt is threaded into a fitting sweated or welded to the pressed metal rocker cover.

10. The upper radius arm, the one that reacts the brake torque into the chassis appears to terminate in another flimsy bracket 'Pop' riveted to the chassis skin.

11. There are no jam nuts on the steering links.

Design Issues:

The steering geometry is such that the car will bump steer like crazy (Look at the arc the steering link will pass through compared to the steering arm path)

The car has at least 6" of scrub radius. It would be extremly difficult to steer, and the offset loadings would also be murder on those rod ends.

The lower transverse links appear longer than the uppers and looking at the motion, the car will have a loss of camber in bump or on the loaded front wheel in roll. Perhaps that is why the car has been set up with so much static negative camber.

Have you figured out I dont like it? ;)

Thats enough for now. Maybe someone can add to the list.
Pat Clarke

#343 Mischa Bijenhof

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 13:54

Wonderful! Thanks for the pictures, Henk. I shoulnd't be too hard to find Arno van Dijk, I'll give it some more attention in the coming weeks.
@ Mattijs: the Van Beusekom connection should give me a clue. I'll contact him soon. Once I've come up with an article it's yours!

#344 Racer.Demon

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 14:08

Originally posted by Pat Clarke
Look carefully, it is unlikely that car could do more than a couple of laps without failure.


Pat, you make a very convincing case...

But I can assure you that the car never so much did any more laps than two, if any. :lol:

Mischa, once you've tracked him down I'm curious to hear his reaction to Pat's list. :rotfl:

#345 GIGLEUX

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 23:34

Here two pictures of the 1951-52 DB project: deux 750cc twin Panhard engines, one at the rear, one at the front. Was tried at Montlhéry by René Bonnet (on the right picture) and after that it disappeared...

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#346 GIGLEUX

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 00:27

Now the Sacha-Gordine:

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From left to righr: ing. Perkins and Vigna, Sacha Gordine.

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A cutaway drawing of the car in F1 form with the blower at the rear.

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Always the F1-project (V8 61x64 1496,24cc two stage Roots blower expected poxer 380 hp at 8000 rpm compression ratio 4,5 to 1.
Front track 1.35 cm rear track 132 cm wheelbase 238 cm. (same dimensions for the F2)

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Some views of the engine

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and the internals.

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The gearbox case moulding

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The F2 engine on the test bench. (70x64 1970,40cc 4 double-choke carburators 195 hp at 8000 rpm compression ratio 22 to 1.

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How the car was imagine at the time (1952)

#347 Ruairidh

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 00:43

Originally posted by Marco94
Some time ago, I received some scans from a portugese formula one project. Needless to say they didn't make it.


Not sure about F1, but I can see this doing real well in Canadian snow races with that snow-plough of a nose.................

#348 GIGLEUX

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 23:35

Originally posted by Reyna

I really don't know !!!
There was an article in the french magazine l'Automobile that shows the photographs of the Nardi F2 with the Aurelia engine in 1.956 (?)

From "L'Automobile" in 1952:

Posted Image

Posted Image

The rear end

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The engine bay

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The cockpit

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Completely outboard front brakes!

#349 Bondurand

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 15:21

Please excuse me if this link has been posted before, but I did not see it on this trend :

Th Dywa Project (in Italian, with some pictures)

http://www.formulaze.../dywa_cap1.html

#350 Bondurand

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 16:02

Originally posted by Marco94
Some time ago, I received some scans from a portugese formula one project. Needless to say they didn't make it.


I remember having seen that article in AutoHebdo. It was in october 1976 and I'va always wondered what happened next. My guess is they did not find the money but I'd really be interested by the full story.