31 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

I heard a report the other day that said that the small Spirt team was nothing more than Honda's test team.

Did Honda have anything to do with the running of the team? Who exactly did run the effort?

[david_martin]

Spirit was run by John Wickham and had formed to run in F2. They paired Stefan Johansson and Thierry Boutsen for their debut in the F2 championship with Honda Engines and Malboro cigarette sponsorship in 1982. Gordon Cuppock (of McLaren fame) designed both their F2 and F1 chassis, if memory serves correctly. Undoubtedly they were an integral part of Hondas engine development programme leading to F1, but they were an independent team.

[Milan Fistonic]

Mike Lawrence's latest column on Planet-F1 has an interesting tale about why Johansson got the Spirit F1 drive rather than Boutsen. It seems that Boutsen brought his Japanese girlfriend into the pits, which was not the done thing for the Japansese and they then insisted that Johansson get the drive.

[andy_bee]

Originally posted by david_martin
. Gordon Cuppock (of McLaren fame) designed both their F2 and F1 chassis, if memory serves correctly.

I thought John Baldwin designed the F1 car, but I maybe he was joint designer with Cuppock. I know they were best of mates

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
Mike Lawrence's latest column on Planet-F1 has an interesting tale about why Johansson got the Spirit F1 drive rather than Boutsen. It seems that Boutsen brought his Japanese girlfriend into the pits, which was not the done thing for the Japansese and they then insisted that Johansson get the drive.

I seem to remember that Boutsen made the mistake to bring a female Japanese translator (error #1) who didn´t only translate but (error #2) also took part in the discussion.

[ghinzani]

Mike Lawrence's latest column on Planet-F1 has an interesting tale about why Johansson got the Spirit F1 drive rather than Boutsen. It seems that Boutsen brought his Japanese girlfriend into the pits, which was not the done thing for the Japansese and they then insisted that Johansson get the drive.

Thierry was pretty peeved not to get the drive afterwards too - he missed out on other decent rides. Spirit did vaguely talk about more miles later on in the season at the time but that wasnt really enough for Thierry I guess.

[lil'chris]

Thierry was pretty peeved not to get the drive afterwards too - he missed out on other decent rides. Spirit did vaguely talk about more miles later on in the season at the time but that wasnt really enough for Thierry I guess.

Having said which Thierry went off to Arrows and started his first GP ( Belgium - May 83 ) before Stefan started the Spirit at Silverstone during July.

[Paul Taylor]

Was Emmo ever in line for the drive, or was he only ever (briefly) destined to test drive it?

Edited by Paul Taylor, 30 June 2009 - 22:34.

[ghinzani]

Having said which Thierry went off to Arrows and started his first GP ( Belgium - May 83 ) before Stefan started the Spirit at Silverstone during July.

Wasnt the Spirits debut at the Race of Champions prioir to that? I think it was from memory.

[ghinzani]

Was Emmo ever in line for the drive, or was he only ever (briefly) destined to test drive it?

That was the Spirit-Hart at the begining of 84 after they had lost the Honda, and was tied up with Fulvio Maria Ballabio driving a cosworth powered car as backup. How he would have ever qualified though...!

[lil'chris]

Wasnt the Spirits debut at the Race of Champions prioir to that? I think it was from memory.

Yep. IIRC Stefan was second quickest to Rosberg early on during practice but started at the back and didn't last long. However in terms of starting a GP Thierry got there first.

[f1steveuk]

Stefan is looking on as Mr Boutsen gets a drive!

Sorry, no idea of copyright, had this print for years.

[Little Leaf]

Thierry was pretty peeved not to get the drive afterwards too - he missed out on other decent rides. Spirit did vaguely talk about more miles later on in the season at the time but that wasnt really enough for Thierry I guess.

I seem to recall (my uncle was one of Boutsens mechanics for Spirit at the time) that although in '82 Boutsen had by far the better results in F2 that was mainly down to Stefan's bad luck and mechanical failures.

You could argue it was Boutsen who ended up in the better teams anyway over the course of his career (in terms of competitiveness of those teams whilst there)

[Little Leaf]

Mike Lawrence's latest column on Planet-F1 has an interesting tale about why Johansson got the Spirit F1 drive rather than Boutsen. It seems that Boutsen brought his Japanese girlfriend into the pits, which was not the done thing for the Japansese and they then insisted that Johansson get the drive.

Could you post a link to this story, I have had a look but can't seem to find it!

Thanks

[Mallory Dan]

I always thought Johannson got the drive 'cos he was quicker, pure and simple. Boutsen may have been the better overall racer, and more likely to bring it home in 1 piece, but over a lap, he wasn't as fast. Given the experimental nature of the car, and likely unreliability, Johannson was more likely to wring its neck and get it somewhere near the front, before it blew-up...

[Arjan de Roos]

Spirit was indeed set up with backing from Honda. It's initiative though was with Coppuck and Wickham.

Boutsen was surely disappointed to lose the seat when it came to racing. Still Stefan was possibly in higher (Japanese) esteem as he had won the British F3 title and had (some) experience in F1.

You could argue it was Boutsen who ended up in the better teams anyway over the course of his career (in terms of competitiveness of those teams whilst there)

Well Stefan nearly won the San Marino GP at his Ferrari debut. The McLaren wasn't bad either. Then again this is a different discussion.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 02 July 2009 - 10:59.

[Little Leaf]

Spirit was indeed set up with backing from Honda. It's initiative though was with Coppuck and Wickham.

Boutsen was surely disappointed to lose the seat when it came to racing. Still Stefan was possibly in higher (Japanese) esteem as he had won the British F3 title and had (some) experience in F1.


Well Stefan nearly won the San Marino GP at his Ferrari debut. The McLaren wasn't bad either. Then again this is a different discussion.

Being pedantic here but that was Stefan's second race for Ferrari, his first was Portugal (Senna's first win). He "should" have won in Canada that year except team orders kept him behind Alboreto. But as you say that is off topic.

Once Honda did jump ship to Williams though the team went down hill. Huub Rottengatter (spelling?) and Mauro Baldi were other drivers to grace their cars.

Not sure why Stefan didn't carry on with the team into '84 though as he didn't have another F1 drive until later in the year with Tyrrell. Maybe he didn't think it would be up to much?

[ghinzani]

Not sure why Stefan didn't carry on with the team into '84 though as he didn't have another F1 drive until later in the year with Tyrrell. Maybe he didn't think it would be up to much?

They wanted to, he had no money though, and would have rightly expected a wage. Which he then got in Japanese F2, IMSA and a few drives for Uncle Ken.

[Arjan de Roos]

Once Honda did jump ship to Williams though the team went down hill. Huub Rottengatter (spelling?) and Mauro Baldi were other drivers to grace their cars.

Being pedantic here but it is Rothengatter.
The only driver in F1 to decline a sponsorship deal as he wanted his car to be painted orange.

[macoran]

The only driver in F1 to decline a sponsorship deal as he wanted his car to be painted orange.

What ???????
Now I understand why he (at the time) took out full page ads in de Telegraaf, with an F1 decked out in Shell, Heineken and/or Phillips livery.
begging for sponsorship................to paint the car orange ???

[Arjan de Roos]

What ???????
Now I understand why he (at the time) took out full page ads in de Telegraaf, with an F1 decked out in Shell, Heineken and/or Phillips livery.
begging for sponsorship................to paint the car orange ???

Of course this is highly OT. But in short: Huub did some exceptional things to attract sponsorship. One was to buy a full page in the saturday color supplement of the dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. In this add a McLaren was repainted in a different livery. One saturday in Shell colors, another in Philips colors and a statement like: "Why not mr. Philips?". Both did not fall for his charms, one however did pay for the add.
Later Philips Australia did sponsor the Lotus of Senna. HB even became Philips Car Stereo coordinator when they did sponsor in F1 (Leyton House).

The Spirit was to carry sponsorship for the 84 Dutch GP. At least his manager and the Zandvoort track president had found some. Rothengatter wanted to show the dutch racing colors to (possibly) bigger sponsors. Or at least show the dutch color in F1 for what it's worth.

[Little Leaf]

Being pedantic here but it is Rothengatter.
The only driver in F1 to decline a sponsorship deal as he wanted his car to be painted orange.

Fantastic, I never knew that, that must be some sort of record.

[Arjan de Roos]

Fantastic, I never knew that, that must be some sort of record.

Rothengatter is a relatively unknown name in F1. No real records. Though he is the only dutch racing driver ever to win a F2 race. Quite determined as he did break his back/neck after that and still did manage top reach F1.
Only record he had was a top speed at Hockenheim speed trap in his Zakspeed days. He does have guts.

[John-w]

Hello,

here are some photos from my Spirit 201C Honda V6, GP Europe 1983 in scale 1/20th
with Stefan Johansson on the wheel.









John-w

[tyrrellp346wheels]

Love the model John

What kit was it or was it scratch built

[John-w]

What kit was it or was it scratch built

The kit is from Studio 27

John-w

[Pink Snail]

Absolutely LOVE the double wing idea , only ever used by Spirit Honda and the Toleman teams. Very innovative and sponsor friendly as well as good looking!!

[T54]

Gordon Cuppock (of McLaren fame)

Uh, Coppuck maybe?

[roger_valentine]

Of course this is highly OT. But in short: Huub did some exceptional things to attract sponsorship. One was to buy a full page in the saturday color supplement of the dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. In this add a McLaren was repainted in a different livery. One saturday in Shell colors, another in Philips colors and a statement like: "Why not mr. Philips?". Both did not fall for his charms, one however did pay for the add.
Later Philips Australia did sponsor the Lotus of Senna. HB even became Philips Car Stereo coordinator when they did sponsor in F1 (Leyton House).

The Spirit was to carry sponsorship for the 84 Dutch GP. At least his manager and the Zandvoort track president had found some. Rothengatter wanted to show the dutch racing colors to (possibly) bigger sponsors. Or at least show the dutch color in F1 for what it's worth.

Can anybody please post these ads from De Telegraaf? Was the car actually repainted, or was the photo retouched (or PhotoShopped, as we would say today)?

[Arjan de Roos]

Can anybody please post these ads from De Telegraaf? Was the car actually repainted, or was the photo retouched (or PhotoShopped, as we would say today)?

Those adds were retouched McLaren's with a Rothengatter helmet. One week with Shell livery, one week with Philips. I have one somewhere, but scanning will be difficult for its A2 size... It was a full page of the then color supplement of the Telegraaf (Weekeinde).

[Little Leaf]

The kit is from Studio 27

John-w

Fantastic! I have seen these kits on Grand Prix models (not sure if it is the same kit, I thought it was from SMTS), the white version is available too.

[fareleiro]

Two questions:

The Spirit 201C Honda was clearly a copy of Toleman's TG183. Any scandal at the time?

But, why continuing their F1 life into 1985 when the 84 car was terrible and re-used for the next season? And with no sponsors at all (well, except for a tiny Australia sportswear logo)!?