Biggest gaps...
#1
Posted 27 July 2001 - 13:06
I was wondering if anyone knows what was the biggest gap between the winning car and the runner up.
Also the biggest gap between pole position and the second. I only guess that gap is greatest at long circuits like the old Nurbergring but if anyone has statistics for various circuits I would find it most iteresting.
Thanks
SenninhaS
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#2
Posted 27 July 2001 - 13:40
To kick off, Pescara 1957 was 3min03.9sec.
Mind you, the winning margin in the 1906 French GP was over 32 minutes .... !!!
#3
Posted 27 July 2001 - 14:09
Remarkable to recall that Jackie's huge lead was partly facilitated by GH spinning (whilst 2nd), having difficulty restarting, push starting the car, losing over a minute and still maintaining second spot!
I was at the Adelaide race of 1995 and though Damon drove very well, I recall that the strongest opposition fell away in droves on what was a pretty hot day. Hence the two laps.
Vanwall.
#4
Posted 27 July 2001 - 14:11
And Vitesse beat me to the punch on the 1906 GP de l'ACF.
#5
Posted 27 July 2001 - 20:10
Originally posted by Don Capps
Gurney won at Rouen by two laps in 1962.
No he didn't, it was only one
#6
Posted 27 July 2001 - 20:26
#7
Posted 30 July 2001 - 01:39
I suppose, the biggest gaps tends to happen due to mechanical adversities or maybe special accidents (as Montoya in Pau in F3000, the only F3000 race with one lap winning gap, I think). Also, we must have in consideration the length of the race and the length of the lap (if laps gaps are considered).
One interesting variation is the biggest % gap in pole. Here there isn't mechanical or accidental difficulties respect second qualifier (usually). I guess weather conditions sometimes can play a role, though.
#8
Posted 30 July 2001 - 14:45
#9
Posted 26 August 2001 - 20:31
BTW, I did anounce my leave only in PC, guessing I won't be so sorelyx missed over here. I hope nobody minds...
#10
Posted 20 June 2011 - 22:03
#11
Posted 20 June 2011 - 22:40
#12
Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:08
#13
Posted 21 June 2011 - 12:25
I was at the Adelaide race of 1995 and though Damon drove very well, I recall that the strongest opposition fell away in droves on what was a pretty hot day. Hence the two laps.
Vanwall.
To finish first, first you must finish. You can't damn the winner with faint praise for the ineptitude of other's. Presumably he was well ahead in any case.
#14
Posted 21 June 2011 - 13:05
Even at his lap record pace of 2.21 and his winning final lap margin of 1m.26 over his 2nd placed rival, that gave him a winning margin of about 15mins....
Pretty tidy....
#15
Posted 21 June 2011 - 13:13
In the Bathurst 1000km race of 1979, the legendary Peter Brock won by 6+ laps
That was truly an amazing day, who would have thought watching a car win by so far could actually be interesting but it was.
#16
Posted 21 June 2011 - 13:34
To finish first, first you must finish. You can't damn the winner with faint praise for the ineptitude of other's. Presumably he was well ahead in any case.
It wasn't ineptitude so much as a strangely high attrition rate. You normally don't see a Footwork/Arrows on the podium in a dry race without a safety car, at least in that era.
#17
Posted 21 June 2011 - 13:49
#18
Posted 21 June 2011 - 14:11
Just watch Andy Murray at Wimbleydone!
You did mean between teeth, didn't you?
#19
Posted 21 June 2011 - 14:17
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#20
Posted 21 June 2011 - 22:52
#21
Posted 22 June 2011 - 08:50
Don't know what event this refers to, but if Hill were the leader the race finished when he had finished his last lap. Panis, had he been just ahead of Hill, would have needed to complete that lap to class as a finisher, under rules as they were for some time, so perhaps if his team knew that could be a problem they wanted him to be lapped again to avoid that extra lap.Something that always puzzles me is that Ligier team asked Panis to slow to let Hill past so he didn't need to complete another lap, but since Hill had lapped Morbidelli twice, surely it wouldn't have made any difference if Hill lapped Panis for a second time. IIRC Alesi, Coulthard and Barrichello all crashed out, Schumacher had someone drive into him and all the rest had mechanical gremlins.
These days positions in effone seem to be awarded based on the number of laps completed, whether the car is running at the finish or not, whereas in normal racing a car had to take the flag within a certain specified time after the winner to count as a finisher. In the RAC MSA rules that is now only the case for races under 50 miles.
#22
Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:07
Not sure of the outcome but potentially could have finished hundreds of miles away from the car in front..
#23
Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:12
At Brazil 1999 Frentzen was third despite not finishing his final lap because he was a lap ahead of 4th place. He started the final lap but conked out part-way around. However first and second crossed the finish line at the end of their final lap just behind him, and 4th place Ralf Schumacher crossed the line just behind them a lap down, thus preventing him from doing the few more corners that would have allowed him to overtake Frentzen, who was in practical terms within the same lap as him, though not in timing.
So maybe there was a change? Because otherwise for Panis, 'letting' Hill lap him only exposed him to attack from Morbidelli. Though his Wacky Racers oil spewing Mugen/Honda seemed to take care of that.
#24
Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:28
Over five laps of a 3.0-mile circuit (Albert Park, same joint as they race today), five laps of 64 laps. Whiteford in the Lago Talbot beat Curley Brydon in a TC Special.
#25
Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:30
The race in question is the 1995 Australian GP. The rule which said that you had to cross the finish line after the winner to be classified had not been in force for many years before then – one example would be the 1964 Monaco GP where Jim Clark was classified 4th despite being a non-runner at the finish.Don't know what event this refers to, but if Hill were the leader the race finished when he had finished his last lap. Panis, had he been just ahead of Hill, would have needed to complete that lap to class as a finisher, under rules as they were for some time, so perhaps if his team knew that could be a problem they wanted him to be lapped again to avoid that extra lap.
I suspect that the reason Panis was told to let Hill lap him again was because his engine was running so roughly that they must have been worried that it might blow up in a big way, with possible oil spill chaos.
The case that’s always puzzled me is Gerhard Berger in the 1986 San Marino GP. He was given great credit for having the sense, at the end of the race, to slow up behind a low-on-fuel Prost and not unlap himself. However, by doing this he lost any chance of taking second position from Piquet. As people were dropping out like flies as they ran out of fuel, there must have been a good chance that Piquet might do the same, and Berger would have lost nothing if he himself had stopped on the last lap – he’d still have been classified third.
#26
Posted 22 June 2011 - 23:00
#27
Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:20
#28
Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:58
#29
Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:08
1952 French GP at Rouen - Ascari was a lap ahead of Farina.
1952 British GP at Silverstone - Ascari was a lap ahead of Taruffi - second GP in a row that the winner won but a clear lap.
1953 Argentine GP at Buenos Aires - Ascari finished a lap ahead of Villoresi.
1954 Italian GP - Fangio was a lap clear of Hawthorn & Maglioli
1956 British GP at Silverstone - Fangio finished a lap ahead of the De Portago/Collins Ferrari.
1959 Portugese GP at Monsanto - Moss finished a lap ahead of Gregory
1962 French GP at Rouen - Gurney was a lap clear of Maggs
1963 Dutch GP - Clark was a lap ahead of Gurney
1964 Monaco GP - Graham Hill by a lap from Ginther
1966 Dutch GP - Brabham by a lap over Graham Hill
1966 US GP at Watkins Glen - Clark in the H16 powered Lotus by a lap from Rindt
1967 Monaco GP - Hulme by a lap from Graham Hill
1968 Canadian GP at Mont Tremblant - Hulme by a lap from McLaren
1969 Spanish GP at Montjuich Park - Jackie Stewart by TWO laps from McLaren
1969 British GP at Silverstone - Jackie Stewart won with Jacky Ickx one lap in arrears.
The last one I attended. There must be more by I have run out of time!
#30
Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:25
The one I immediately thought of was the 1968 Belgian GP - Chris Amon's pole lap was done in 3:28.6, while second fastest qualifying lap was Stewart's 3:32.3 - that's a gap of 3.7 seconds (incidentally Ickx filled the last slot on the front row with a time of 3:34.3, while 3:35 was enough for the second row)Also the biggest gap between pole position and the second. I only guess that gap is greatest at long circuits like the old Nurbergring but if anyone has statistics for various circuits I would find it most iteresting.
This was the race where Amon's Ferrari 312 sported an aerofoil for the first time - goes a some way to explain why he managed to beat his team-mate Ickx by nearly six seconds....
Also in 1968 Ickx bounced back at the Nurburgring, taking pole in 9:04.0 with runner-up Amon a full ten seconds behind at 9:14.9. Mind you, this was the wettest GP at the Nurburgring since WW II....
The longest circuit didn't produce the biggest gap between pole position and second fastest - at Pescara back in 1957 Fangio was on pole - 9:44.6 - from Moss (9:54.7).
I can't think of any bigger gap, at least in an F1 world championship GP, but perhaps there is a proportionally larger gap somewhere?
#31
Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:25
For grid positions the sensible way to go is to take it as apercentage of the pole time. For the three examples quoted: the Spa difference is 2.7%, Nurburgring 2.0% and Pescara 1.7%
For races it's not so easy. Clearly laps should be converted to an equivalent time - But on what basis? Should we take a lap to be equivalent to the winner's final lap, the second place man's final lap, the average over the race distance or what? On top of that, the gap is actually "one lap [or two laps] plus [so many] seconds". Whether the rules required the second place man has to cross the finishing line or not also affects the answer. I think the simplest approach is to take a lap to be the equivalent in time of the winner's average lap time and if necessary fine tune it from there. It looks as if Jackie Stewarts 5 lap margin in the non-championship 1963 Austrian GP would work out as the winner for, shall we say, post war grands prix. Other races, such as 24 hour and other endurance races and the early long distance races is a different story. Probably a percentage of the winner's time would be the best comparison.
Has anybody thought about the Peking - Paris and New York - Paris races from over 100 years ago, Dakar etc.
#32
Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:44
#33
Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:09
Brocky made a habit of the quick last lap. i think he did it 2 or 3 times. Defenitly playing to the crowd while on a banzia lap was his trademark in those dominant days.In the Bathurst 1000km race of 1979, the legendary Peter Brock not only won by 6+ laps of the 6.2km circuit, but also set a lap record on the last lap whilst at the same time grand-standing to the adoring crowd with one arm out the window....
Even at his lap record pace of 2.21 and his winning final lap margin of 1m.26 over his 2nd placed rival, that gave him a winning margin of about 15mins....
Pretty tidy....
Wont happen these days with the pacecar finishing in the top 10!
#34
Posted 11 May 2012 - 13:31
1950 Monaco GP - Fangio was a lap ahead of Ascari and the rest.
1952 French GP at Rouen - Ascari was a lap ahead of Farina.
1952 British GP at Silverstone - Ascari was a lap ahead of Taruffi - second GP in a row that the winner won but a clear lap.
1953 Argentine GP at Buenos Aires - Ascari finished a lap ahead of Villoresi.
1954 Italian GP - Fangio was a lap clear of Hawthorn & Maglioli
1956 British GP at Silverstone - Fangio finished a lap ahead of the De Portago/Collins Ferrari.
1959 Portugese GP at Monsanto - Moss finished a lap ahead of Gregory
1962 French GP at Rouen - Gurney was a lap clear of Maggs
1963 Dutch GP - Clark was a lap ahead of Gurney
1964 Monaco GP - Graham Hill by a lap from Ginther
1966 Dutch GP - Brabham by a lap over Graham Hill
1966 US GP at Watkins Glen - Clark in the H16 powered Lotus by a lap from Rindt
1967 Monaco GP - Hulme by a lap from Graham Hill
1968 Canadian GP at Mont Tremblant - Hulme by a lap from McLaren
1969 Spanish GP at Montjuich Park - Jackie Stewart by TWO laps from McLaren
1969 British GP at Silverstone - Jackie Stewart won with Jacky Ickx one lap in arrears.
The last one I attended. There must be more by I have run out of time!
Thank you. What about the GP before 1950?
#35
Posted 11 May 2012 - 14:21
Thank you. What about the GP before 1950?
Pass! I didn't have the records to hand at the time.
#36
Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:53
I've found an even bigger qualifying gap - at the 1956 Belgian GP Fangio's pole lap was completed in 4:09.8 while runner-up Moss spent 4:14.7. That's a gap of 1,96 percent. The gap at Spa in 1968 was 1,77 percent, while the gap at the Nurburgring in 1968 was, as stated, 2,0 percent and at Pescara in 1957 1,72 percent. So, the biggest gap between the first two qualifiers was at the 1968 German GP at the Nordschleife, both in percentage as in absolute figures.When evaluating this data it is essential to take the circuit length into account.
For grid positions the sensible way to go is to take it as apercentage of the pole time. For the three examples quoted: the Spa difference is 2.7%, Nurburgring 2.0% and Pescara 1.7%
EDit: ooops - Mansell's gap at Silverstone in 1992 is indeed bigger, percentagewise.
Edited by Spaceframe, 14 May 2012 - 10:55.
#37
Posted 14 May 2012 - 18:03
#38
Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:36
2nd qualifier for the 1983 1000 kms was Jacky Ickx at 6 16.85 so I make the gap to Bellof's qualification time approx 2%
#39
Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:19
Second fastest qualifier Jimmy Murphy started from 9th place, but remarkably managed to lead the first lap. Milton won the race though.
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#40
Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:32
Reminds me of Giacomo Agostini and his MV in the late sixties/early seventies, when he would often win races by a lap or two - he must've put some daylight between himself and the opposition in qualifying, too.
Edited by Michael Ferner, 15 May 2012 - 13:32.
#41
Posted 15 May 2012 - 22:23
In 1970 24 hours of Daytona, the victorious Porsche 917K won by 45 laps, or by about 275 kms, which is probably about an hour and a half timewise...
Not good enough for that particular race -- in the '79 Daytona 24, Danny Ongais, Hurley Haywood and Ted Field won by 49 laps on the 3.84-mile roval. They were in the latest Porsche 935/79, while second place (John Morton/Tony Adamowicz) were in a Ferrari 365 GTB Daytona.
#42
Posted 18 July 2015 - 09:52
I have just read that Hannu Mikkola and co-driver Jim Porter won the 1973 New Zealand Heatway Rally by over 40 minutes from teammates Mike Marshall and Arthur McWatt, both teams driving Mk 1 Ford Escort RS1600s. Is this the biggest winning margin for a modern national or international level rally?
#43
Posted 18 July 2015 - 12:37
Several days, as I recall.
#44
Posted 18 July 2015 - 15:42
Since I'v never heard of the London - Munich I looked it up on the web.
The second car was 'just' 28 hours behind. The last classified finisher had 28 days of penalty times collected.
19 cars were classified and only 5 of them completed the whole distance.
I read this and think to myself: why the hell would somebody do this?
#45
Posted 18 July 2015 - 17:01
Since I'v never heard of the London - Munich I looked it up on the web.
The second car was 'just' 28 hours behind. The last classified finisher had 28 days of penalty times collected.
19 cars were classified and only 5 of them completed the whole distance.
I read this and think to myself: why the hell would somebody do this?
It does sound crazy. I remember reading Evan Green's entertaining account of the event, 'A Bootful of Right Arms'. He took part in a Leyland P76.
#46
Posted 18 July 2015 - 22:04
And the leading car nearly got stuck on an icy climb up a mountainside just before the finish!
Duc-Man, if you read the book you'd understand why they did it.
#47
Posted 18 July 2015 - 23:43
Peter Brocks SIX lap win [about 40k] at Bathurst in 79 was equal too anyones records. And I believe fastest lap on the last lap too.
That was soon after winning the Repco Reliability Trial.
Ofcourse noone is allowed to set up wins like that now. The 'Safety Car' will come out to set up another restart if someone gets too far in front. Choreographed motor racing, not sport.
#48
Posted 19 July 2015 - 08:12
Peter Brocks SIX lap win [about 40k] at Bathurst in 79 was equal too anyones records. And I believe fastest lap on the last lap too.
That was soon after winning the Repco Reliability Trial.
Ofcourse noone is allowed to set up wins like that now. The 'Safety Car' will come out to set up another restart if someone gets too far in front. Choreographed motor racing, not sport.
You do have to take into account the race distance & time to complete that distance. There must be Le Mans races where the winning margin was more than six laps!
#49
Posted 20 July 2015 - 14:42
If we're going to include rallies,how about the 1965 Safari? The Volvo of Joginder and Jaswant Singh finished 100 points, corresponding to 100 mins ahead of the Peugeot of Jaffray and Bathurst.
#50
Posted 20 July 2015 - 15:45
In the 1922 French GP Nazzaro's winning Fiat was around 58 minutes ahead of de Vizcaya's second-placed Bugatti, and a further 33 minutes ahead of Marco in third.
And in those days you had to complete the full distance to be classified as a finisher. It must have been enthralling to watch Marco for 90 minutes after Nazzaro had won the race. Think of the viewing figures, Bernie.