24 replies to this topic

[fines]

Everyone knows that they were called "Ferrari 801F1" in 1957, but what was their 'official' Ferrari designation in 1956? I have found only one source (Das Auto 3/56), saying "Ferrari CL 18"! Now that sounds a bit odd to me! Anyone with another version?

[Paul Medici]

fines

LANCIA/FERRARI D50 ?

PJM

[fines]

Sorry Paul, but Lancia-Ferrari was never an official designation, just the brainchild of some writers. I am after a designation like "Alfa Romeo 8C-2300" for the Monza Alfa Romeo, or "Maserati 4CLT/48" for the San Remo Maserati.

[Felix Muelas]

OK, Michael, just let me get this straight for my peace of mind :

You are actually saying that after the Lancias D50 plus its designer, Jano, were "handed over" to Ferrari in 1955, the modified car that appeared in 1956 was not designated Lancia-Ferrari D50?

Not only that, but that the above-mentioned designation was "the brainchild" of some writers?

I´m interested, if only because I do not think I have ever heard
another designation for that car. I´ll be following this thread closely, believe me.

Felix

[Don Capps]

This is a question with probably an "unsatisfactory" answer: many contemporary accounts differ -- Ferrari-Lancia or Lancia-Ferrari being used quite often by the same journal over the season. However, many still referred to the D.50's as the Scuderia did: as "Ferraris".... It was a touchy situation and the team was not necessarily entralled with its "good fortune." However, with the D.50's came what Enzo Ferrari really wanted: a stipend in the form of cold, hard cash from Fiat.

I am aware of the "CL 18" moniker (Corsa Lancia), but I have rarely seen it used after the Belgian GP.

Even looking at the entry forms you can note some ambivilance on the part of the Scuderia.

Hmmm, I see where more than a few journals call the D.50 a "Ferrari-Lancia" and then later on (the mid-60s onward) call it a "Lancia-Ferrari."

However, with an opinion being as good as anyone else's, I have always just called them the "Lancia D.50" entered by Scuderia Ferrari. Even the "801" was a "D.50" tried and true, with those assembled by Ferrari being "proper" Lancia-Ferrari D.50's, perhaps really being the "D.50/57" if someone had asked me at the time...

[fines]

Don, do you have seen entry forms saying "Lancia-Ferrari" or "Ferrari-Lancia"? That'd surprise me, since in all the contemporary results panels I've seen they are only ever referred to as "Ferrari", pure and simple. Which, btw, seems only natural to me, since the Hesketh 308C was always a "Williams FW05" when entered by FWRC, and the Wolf WR8 always a "Fittipaldi F7" in 1980, and so on.

"CL" = Corsa Lancia sounds like a good explanation, but what about the "18"??

[Don Capps]

If I recall, they were entered as "Ferraris", but I freely admit to not having some of my notes with me. The "18" was probably a design number for internal use, but I am only making an educated guess.

While Ferrari had little use for the cars once their usefulness was at an end, one need only look at the recent Graham Gauld book for the fate of the Lancia cars...

One easily gets the idea that they were not very loved....

[Roger Clark]

Motor Sport always referred to them as Lancia/Ferraris, but that would have been Denis Jenkinson deciding what he thought they ought to be called, as he always did. Autosport called them Ferraris after some early season references to Lancias and Ferrari Lancias. I've never seen an entry list but I feel sure that Ferrari used only his own name; they had Ferrari badges on the nose cowling. Neither magazine ever referred to a type designation. I must admit that I've never heard of the LC18 name.

I prefer Lancia/Ferrari (or Lancia-Ferrari). The core was obviously Lancia, but Ferrari made enough changes to the chassis to justify the inclusion of his name.

[Megatron]

I don't think that Lancia was ever mentioned on the entry lists and Ferrari is 100% credited with the results, so I don't think that it was offically Lanica-Ferrari.

There was no Lancia sinage on the car either, that I am aware of.

[Patrick Italiano]

I've had the chance of watching a D50 this satursday at Francorchamps, prepared by Tony Merrick for a wealthy client (I didn't bother to ask the name).

It won't be decisive about the name, but I can witness that the cam covers did read "Lancia".

Discussing with the mechanic who was in care of it, I've been told that engine, transmission and suspension are original, while frame and body are replica. It's a wonderfully engineered car, IMHO.

[Toine]

Hi Patrick

I was at Spa this w-e too and noticed the D50. I didn't know that the Lancia badge was still on the D50s when Ferrari took care of them and raced them. So i guess they kept the Lancia engine too?
I was impressed to see a D50 for the first time and to see the lateral tanks.

See u

Toine

[Megatron]

One must also realize that the Ferrari's modified the D50 quite a bit. I think the only one of the six to remain a true Lancia went to the Lancia family. The infamous side fuel tanks were moved to the rear and the suspension was altered...

[Patrick Italiano]

I didn't know that the Lancia badge was still on the D50s when Ferrari took care of them and raced them. So i guess they kept the Lancia engine too?

No, I haven't said it kept the Lancia badge. I said that the frame and the body were replica, hence the Lancia badge, lateral tanks, etc.

However, the engine being genuine (I have been told so), and since it's badged Lancia, I guess that no one would re-cast cam covers.

The car in Francorchamps was undoubtly in Lancia trim in every aspect.

[Toine]

Hi

Thanx for clearing my thoughts, i'm a beginner in Nostalgia:)

C U

Toine

[fines]

There`s another interesting question: When Lancia (or Fiat) handed over their fleet of D50s, one was retained by the Lancia family, so that out of the first seven chassis numbers one should be missing in the Ferrari line-up. Yet both Don Capps (in his Lancia D50 Special at 8w) and Paul Sheldon assign all ten numbers (0001 to 0010) to Ferrari entered cars! How's that?

Also, what about the Ascari wreck from Monaco? Cimarosti shows a picture of the handover on July 26, two months after the crash: Five immaculate cars and one unpainted. Is the latter the repaired harbour diver? Was it repairable after all? Has anyone seen pictures of the crashed car? (I have, but I can't remember the extent of the damage! )

[David McKinney]

I hate to introduce more controversy than necessary, but the first mention I have seen of Lancia keeping a D50 was about 1968... I'd love to see proof that it's not a re-creation. Later stories suggest that two cars were retained at the handover, presumably to cover the car in the Lancia Museum as well as the one in the Biscaretti.
A run of six replicas is at present being run off - the first one has been on the tracks for about a year, owned by Robin Lodge (and complete with FIA papers!). This may have been the one at Spa. Sir Anthony Bamford allegedly had a whole stack of spare engines and transaxles, which is forming the basis of the new cars.

[Roger Clark]

A D50 appeared at the London Racing Car Show in early 1962, surely too early for any replicas. i can't find a picture, but the reports said it ws in lancia form, and the only one not to have been handed over to Ferrari.

[cabianca]

Perhaps Don could post the address of his treatise on this subject. The Turin and Biscaretti cars are definitely in D50 Lancia configuration.

No, the cars were definitely not loved at Ferrari. Jano's engineering was a little too elegant for the Maranello blacksmith. He basically destroyed all their good points and retained the bad ones. Even in this form they were better than their rivals but Ferrari was lucky that Mercedes pulled out. Another of the great "what ifs". What if Lancia had had the money to continue into 1956 and properly develop the D50 (It needed to be made more drivable and have a more forgiving limit). I don't think Ferrari would have had a look in. However, if a 555 Super Squalo was able to win its race at the Monte Carlo Historique last year, the D50 replicas should have a great future there.

[David McKinney]

I've never doubted the 2 museum cars were Lancia D50s, Cabianca, just whether they were originals.
But Roger's report of a car extant in 1962 does indeed throw a different light on the question - thanks for that, Roger!

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by cabianca
Another of the great "what ifs". What if Lancia had had the money to continue into 1956 and properly develop the D50 (It needed to be made more drivable and have a more forgiving limit).

Isn't that exactly what Ferrari did with his modifications to weight distribution and the rear suspension?

I, for one, would love to see a Lancia-Ferrari in its 1956 form. They were important cars. Are they the only world champions that have never been seen, in either replica or original form? Is there more money in building Lancia replicas?

[cabianca]

Roger,
Regarding the 801 Ferrari as the only WC car not existing in real or replica form, I certainly haven't seen an example of Hawthorn's 1958 246 Dino. All Dinos extant, real or replica, are later models. The existing 1961 sharknose is so far removed from the original that I don't think it should be called a replica.

[Patrick Italiano]

Hi Folks,

I just came across an article on the "Lancia-Ferrari" while researching for something completely different (as usual )

Article is from Ruoteclassiche, and states very clearly that the Lancia-Ferrari, former Lancia D50, was renamed Ferrari 8 CL after being transformed by Ferrari.
There's no explanation about the symbols, but I could guess that 8 stands for the cylinders, C is either "competizione" or "cylinders" (as in former Alfa designations, and L for the Lancia origin.

The picture of the handover of the cars in july 1955 has a caption saying that Ferrari received 6 cars plus all the spare parts.

There's a picture with Lancia on the cams covers, but it can be of a Lancia original car. So, I can't confirm from that article whether Lancia was still worn on the Ferrari cars.

[fines]

That's interesting, because I seemed to remember "8CL" but couldn't find any reference, just the "CL 18".

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by fines
... , so that out of the first seven chassis numbers one should be missing in the Ferrari line-up. Yet both Don Capps (in his Lancia D50 Special at 8w) and Paul Sheldon assign all ten numbers (0001 to 0010) to Ferrari entered cars! How's that?

According to Jenkinson (quoted in Tanner's Sixth edition) the numbers 0008, 0009 and 0010 had been built in 1957. How's that?
Only this three 'narrow-bodied' cars had been designated '801' ( ' ... although there seems to have been little contemporary knowledge of the 801 designation') and 'these three frames differed from their predecessors in using single large diameter bottom tube longerons instead of ...' .

Hmmm ...

[fines]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
According to Jenkinson (quoted in Tanner's Sixth edition) the numbers 0008, 0009 and 0010 had been built in 1957. How's that?

Even more puzzling, since these three cars already appeared in 1956, according to Sheldon and Capps! Don, where are you?