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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#701 Macca

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 20:42

Yes, any shot in the fim where the onboard camera is looking directly back at the driver, rather than from the side, was taken this way - even ones with Garner.

All Bedford's, and most of Sabato's, were done with the GT40 (and Sabato had p*ssed people off, so Chris Amon gave him a severe scare when driving the Ford to learn him some respect!)

Oddly, I can't remember seeing an onboard shot of Montand at Clermont-Ferrand, where the above photo was taken.

Paul M

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#702 f1steveuk

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 20:44

Originally posted by macoran
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Anybody know more about this "hitch" job??


The GT40 was driven by Attwood and Amon I think, and Amon took great delight in frightening the living #### out of the Ferrari "number 2" who legend has it was an obnoxious individual

#703 j-ickx-fan

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 11:18

Originally posted by f1steveuk

The GT40 was driven by Attwood and Amon I think, and Amon took great delight in frightening the living #### out of the Ferrari "number 2" who legend has it was an obnoxious individual

Not really...

In the F1i Magazine of January 2007, there is a full report about the footage of Grand Prix as well as an interview of Bernard Cahier who was involved in the footage.
All the photos are Copyright Bernard Cahier .

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The above photo shows the Sarti's car pulled by the GT40 driven by Phil Hill .
During the first laps in Monaco, Yves Montand (JP Sarti) made a spin at the Casino curve and came back to the pits with a white face showing how scared he was by this incident. Frankenheimer said "it wasn't bad but it would be better if Phil Hill would drive". So for the action scenes, they took the wheels of and attached the car to the GT40 which was holding the camera and was driven by Phil Hill. This last one had some pleasure to drive fast while pulling the F3 chassis behind him, scaring more again Yves Montand.

Another photo taken at Charade where they had to organised a fake GP and paid the publc to fill up the circuit and stands as the official 1966 French GP took place in Reims.

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Here are a couple of scenes taken during the footage of the film.

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There is many more great photos in this magazine and I invite you to buy it. You will not regret it.

#704 f1steveuk

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 11:51

Well you live and learn, because I am fairly certain Motorsport's article said it was Amon and Attwood, Phil Hill was driving various camera cars (like at Spa when he started in an F2 car), so now I am confused!

#705 Macca

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 17:39

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Well, if Phil Hill is driving the GT40 in the first photo, it's a good trick, because his alter-ego Tim Randolph appears to be driving the Yamura.........

The 3rd & 4th photos are at Brands Hatch, shooting the "He's on fire!!!!" scene.

But where can we buy this excellent magazine in the UK?

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 29 February 2012 - 14:51.


#706 macoran

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 17:58

Thanks for that J.Ickx fan !

#707 ed holly

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 21:53

Bought the Grand Prix booklet at a swap meet last week....I think that was produced for the release of the movie. There is a small photo of it back in this thread.

I have always loved the film and probably watched it more than 20 times over the years. The booklet says that the first race at Monaco produced near chaos. 200 odd extra people plus enough equipment to fill the harbour all shoe-horned into the tiny Principality.

It goes on to say that NASA developed cameras - electronic and microwave systems filmed the action from angles never before seen in the theatre and cameramen spent much of their day at speeds of 150mph plus in monster camera cars and helicopters. And the F1 drivers G & P Hill Brabham etc, talked knowledgeably of soft focus and over-the-shoulder-two shots, and the actors like Garner, Montand, Bedford and Sabato all do their own driving and sounded more like mechanics than mechanics. In the booklet it says they also used a GT40 as a camera car ....

A couple of snippets from the booklet ..... James Garner's reception on the victory dais, far outweighed that given to the real winner Surtees only moments before !! .... and when Lloyds of London went and seen what Garner was doing they promptly cancelled his insurance in horror .... well that's what it says ....

It goes on to say that nothing like it has been attempted before. It will probably never happen again. Fasten your seat belts.


Finally I has a Lotus 20 for a while, and I am pretty sure some of the mock-up F1 cars were Lotus 20s. The floor mounted pedals were identical, and how many F1 cars of 66 ran without a camber link in the rear suspension ... some of the last shots on the banking at Monza show this feature in great detail.


Oh one last thing ... this movie started my fascination and love of Chronometric Tachometers, so much so that I bought a racing car just to be able to use one as they should be used ...

John Frankenheimer you were a visionary ....

Ed

#708 Macca

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 07:42

Ed, you're right about the Lotus 20s - Frankenheimer employed Carrol Shelby as consultant, and he promptly called Jim Russell in the UK (in the middle of the night) who shut down his Snetterton racing school, sold all his Lotus 20 school cars to MGM, and faked them up to look like the new F1s of 1966.

As you say, you can always spot them in the film because of the lack of a top link to the rear suspension. However, MGM also bought some surplus 1.5 litre 1965 F1 cars - 3 Lotus 33s, at least 2 Brabham BT11s, 1 Cooper T79 and 1 BRM P261.

Two of the Loti were faked up as a Ferrari and a Yamura (as were the Brabhams) and the other left unmolested, and the BRM which had a side-exhaust engine was faked-up both as a centre-exhaust version and as an H16.

Here is a grab of the Ferrari garage in Clermont-Ferrand before the specially-staged 'French GP', showing a Lotus 33 'Ferrari' on the left and a Brabham BT11 'Ferrari' on the right, with Jessica Walter in a Lotus 20 'Ferrari' in the middle:

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Sometimes in the film, in one scene the cars switch back and forth between faked-up 33 and 20 Yamuras, or a Lotus 20 'BRM H16' and a BRM P261 'H16'!

Many of the Lotus 20s were 'used up' in the crashes and fires in the film, but one is still around in the UK racing in historic Formula Junior and has James Garner's autograph on the dash, as he drove it in a photoshoot at Monza in 1999, fitted with the original 'BRM H16' bodywork it had when he drove it in the film.

Paul M

edit: the picture from post 710

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Edited by Macca, 22 August 2013 - 12:31.


#709 doc knutsen

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 21:30

Originally posted by ed holly
Bought the Grand Prix booklet at a swap meet last week.


Finally I has a Lotus 20 for a while, and I am pretty sure some of the mock-up F1 cars were Lotus 20s. The floor mounted pedals were identical, and how many F1 cars of 66 ran without a camber link in the rear suspension ... some of the last shots on the banking at Monza show this feature in great detail.


Oh one last thing ... this movie started my fascination and love of Chronometric Tachometers, so much so that I bought a racing car just to be able to use one as they should be used ...

John Frankenheimer you were a visionary ....

Ed


Not only that, but the pic of the burning Yamura shows that it's got inboard DRUM brakes at the rear....finned light alloy jobs, but drums all the same :eek:

#710 MrMacca

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 10:48

Posted Image
©Rainer Schlegelmilch

From the 'old rubbish' thread - Sarti's car at monaco.

Paul M

#711 doc knutsen

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 18:40

Originally posted by MrMacca
Posted Image
©Rainer Schlegelmilch

From the 'old rubbish' thread - Sarti's car at monaco.

Paul M


Goodness me - Ferrari had inboard rear drums, too? :lol:
Nice place for twin ignition coils btw. But at least the uprights had lugs for mounting outboard brakes,
presumably just in case the drums should get a tad tired around Monaco..

#712 David Lawson

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 06:27

For the half a dozen of us that don't have the DVD, Grand Prix is on TCM tonight at 11.10pm.

David

#713 Macca

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 21:40

When Aron visits Maranello to try and get a ride with Manetta, supposedly between Monaco and France in May, there are three 36-valve F1 engines sitting in the race shop, and the 246 Dino is seen carrying no. 44 which it was given during the Italian GP practise when lent to Parnell for Baghetti to drive...........so it's actually September, after Monza:

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Paul M

Edited by Macca, 07 March 2012 - 10:11.


#714 dbltop

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 07:12

Whats Emilio Largo doing in the Ferrari factory? I thought Bond had taken care of him by then. And...and..where's his eye patch?










Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

#715 911

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:21

Originally posted by MrMacca
Posted Image
©Rainer Schlegelmilch

From the 'old rubbish' thread - Sarti's car at monaco.

Paul M


Great pic!

Not to be too picky, but I think this is Barlini's #16 car.;)

#716 Peter Morley

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:32

Originally posted by doc knutsen


Goodness me - Ferrari had inboard rear drums, too? :lol:
Nice place for twin ignition coils btw. But at least the uprights had lugs for mounting outboard brakes,
presumably just in case the drums should get a tad tired around Monaco..


Maybe the coil location was to keep them cool - like the British teams were having to do with their Lucas Electronic ignition boxes!

The lug on the upright is for the radius rod, having it both sides of the upright meant Lotus only needed one type of upright (rather than right & left hand).

They could have modified the real exhaust to an up and over type and had one of the four dummies working rather than the rusty fifth pipe that is warming the ignition coils!

#717 Macca

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 20:54

Originally posted by 911


Great pic!

Not to be too picky, but I think this is Barlini's #16 car.;)


As the Italian captain in "'Allo, 'Allo" would say, "Whatta mistake-a to make!"

I wonder why JF had Sarti, with the Surtees helmet, in the Bandini #16 car - causing a continuity problem with the footage of the real race. Maybe he thought the no. 1 driver should have the lower number..........

Meanwhile..........here is the garage used by 'Manetta-Ferrari' in Clermont-Ferrand - I wonder if it's still there:

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Paul M

Edited by Macca, 25 June 2012 - 15:10.


#718 dsmerritt

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:37

Not to cause trouble, but even though I have the DVD, my personal opinion is still that "Grand Prix" is a very flawed, hokey, Hollywood version of the real thing. Although I love things like seeing Spa, the movie is, and always has been, a major disappointment to me.

Le Mans, on the other hand, is so real it's scary. I've never seen anything else that comes close to capturing what it really feels like as well as this movie. Real cars, real sounds, NO STUPID HOLLYWOOD PLOT! This lack of a conventional plot is what Le Mans has always been criticized for by regular movie people - and it's why it has aged so well, which Grand Prix certainly has not done.

So - where are the outtakes from Le Mans?

#719 Breadmaster

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 23:10

David,

Thou speakest the truth, just speak it quietly around here!

;)

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#720 David M. Kane

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 23:43

David:

You are talking about the Steve McQueen movie? I need to think real hard before I respond.
Clearly you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm having trouble connecting the dots...

Could you give just a coupla of points to compare?

#721 M Needforspeed

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 13:31

The problem of LE MANS movie is that finally instead of doing a movie, they should simply have embarked cameras on ten cars, then cut the rushes....and the result wld have been the same.

imagine the GP of today and all the cameras angles, if they have been availables in Le Mans 70 race...

we wldn 't have need the Steve Mc Queen work


for GRAND PRIX , the main frustration (perhaps it is in the Outakes ) is they completely cut off CLERMONT FERRAND marvellous track .Grand Prix would have given justice to that track.There was plenty of place to put cameras to capture the action on that track, better than at Spa, Brands Hatch, Monza, and equal to Monaco...but with marvellous and frightening surroundings ( see the track in Grand Prix Legend, that give justice to largely the best french track ever built (1)).they should have taken advantage of the strong differences in altitudes, putting simply the camera AT PLACES WHERE REAL SPECTATORS COULD SEE THE ACTION (Belvedere, Gravenoire, the climb to champeaux ect...)

...instead of that, they joked with multi cameras views, that, while entertaining in the sixties movies
artifacts , look undoubtly outdated nowadays, and frustrated everyone who knows CHARADE by simply scarces rushes of the start finish line straight and the first left hander !


(1) recently on a poll , GPL aficionados voted CLermont Ferrand BEST ADD ON track, on more than 300 tracks !

#722 David M. Kane

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 14:47

M Needforspeed:

Well said, I think I'll respectably bow out of this conversation now...

#723 cmotd

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 20:56

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I have just stumbled across this thread. I possess approximately 6000 of these shots. They were all taken during the filming of the movie - how many do you want to see?

#724 Breadmaster

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 21:18

Originally posted by cmotd


I have just stumbled across this thread. I possess approximately 6000 of these shots. They were all taken during the filming of the movie - how many do you want to see?


Knowing this lot as I do....every single last one...!

#725 Gary C

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 21:32

holy cow !!! :clap:
As the one who started this whole thread about four years ago, this is the sort of stuff I was originally looking for!!

#726 Frank S

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 05:34

Originally posted by Gary C
holy cow !!! :clap:

What he said, only Holy (cow) droppings!

What an undertaking! Maybe you could mass process them onto a Web site where people could pick them up in bunches?

And (looking the gift cow in the mouth) could they be at least the size of the last of those first posted?

A real gold mine. How did you come by them all?

Wow!

--
Frank S
San Diego
CA USA

#727 Macca

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 05:47

Holy Panavision, Batman, it's the motherlode!

Better keep a disc free................


Paul M

#728 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 11:05

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
I'd want to see EVERYTHING. I can only imagine what is going through Gary C's mind right now!!

#729 Formula Once

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 13:39

Hello, just arrived here, compliments to everyone contributing to what is a wonderful platform for sharing information, great Grand Prix pictures, any chance of selling a selection for a publication we are working on? How does this work btw, would you need my e-mail address or do you reply on this forum? Thanks for letting me know, Mark

#730 cmotd

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 20:24

To elaborate:

What have I got?

Just over 300 A4 sheets of contact prints - up to 35 individual photos per sheet - certainly in excess of 6000 individual shots.

It was fairly usual practice for a still photographer to take several hundred rolls of film during the course of a movie production. A few of these would be used as posters/press releases etc but the majority would probably be dumped. They would include all sorts of things - setting up of scenes, publicity shots of the stars, off duty activities etc.

Not everything I have is of interest - gorgeous though she was and an object of unbridled lust to more than one spotty teenager, including myself - 5 sheets of head and shoulder shots of Françoise Hardy won't advance our knowledge of the film. There are also many near duplicates as the photographer would take many shots of the same item just to get one worthwhile picture.

Even so there are several thousand pictures of interest.

For example, what is going on here? Posted Image

How did I get them?
In the late 80s a friend of mine was an Ambulance Paramedic and the ambulance station was right next door to Jim Russell's garage in Downham Market. They shared dustbins and one day my friend met Jim as he was dumping a folder of photos in the bin. He asked what they were and Jim replied that he was having a clearout and they were just some old racing shots from the 60s. My friend asked if he could have them and was handed the folder with Jim's blessing. Knowing my interest in motorsport he passed them on to me. I had a quick flick through, recognised them as something to do with the movie and put them away for later study.

I often looked at them over the years but it was only recently that I discovered their true importance. I just assumed that there were many more of them around. I recently bought the dvd of the movie and tried to identify the location of some of the pictures. While wandering around t'interweb for more information I came across this forum and thought they may be of interest.

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These two shots were taken in the same place - can anyone identify where?

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I am happy to share these but it takes about 20 minutes per picture to extract an individual one from a sheet and photoshop it to the right size and quality, so life is probably too short to do the whole lot! If you want to keep any of them please bear in mind that they will only be here for a short time as I clear out my image hosting albums at regular intervals.

I am also a bit concerned about copyright issues as I do not own the negatives and, while unlikely after such a long period of time, it is entirely possible that someone still owns copyright on them. If any moderators are looking in perhaps they could advise whether it is ok to post some more of them.

And finally - for the time being:

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Frankenheimer organising some sort of publicity shot - ooh, Françoise - I've come over all weak!

#731 Macca

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 20:56

The second and third are both the paddock at Monza, I believe; the fourth is outside a garage in Clermont-Ferrand where the two Ferraris come out to drive to the circuit - see my post of a freezeframe on the previous page of this thread.

The first one is the 'spinner', used to get shots of the driver as a car spins/crashes, used several times in the film.

Paul M

#732 Richard Neale

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 08:14

What ever makes you think that 5 sheets of head and shoulders of Francios won't advance our knowledge of the film!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :love: :love: :love:

#733 Stirling

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 09:25

Originally posted by Richard Neale
What ever makes you think that 5 sheets of head and shoulders of Francios won't advance our knowledge of the film!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :love: :love: :love:


Ahh, Francoise Hardy - icon of '60's chic!

Antonio Sabato: 'Dance?'

Francoise: 'I don't dance.'

Sabato: 'Have a drink with me?'

Francoise: 'I don't drink.'

Sabato: 'Smoke?'

Francoise: 'I don't smoke.'

Sabato: 'What do you do?'

Francoise doesn't answer, but the look she gives tells us all we need to know about what she does!



cmotd's collection is an astonishingly valuable archive to have survived - both in terms of the history of motor racing and that of film studies - I'm really so pleased to see this surface. I've long hoped that someday someone might do justice to Frankenheimer's vision by producing a high quality book on Grand Prix to rival Keyser and Williams' A French Kiss With Death: Steve McQueeen and the Making of Le Mans. The Man - The Race - The Cars - The Movie . Although plenty of splendid post-production stills in technicolour are of course readily available, I think cmotd's unique collection would add something very special to such a publication. I hope someone capable of doing such a project justice will approach him at some stage. Until then, many thanks cmotd for taking the time to share these images with those of us who've always appreciated what Frankenheimer achieved in that most iconic of seasons, 1966.

ciao,
Stirling

#734 Frank S

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 04:48

Originally posted by Stirling [ ... ]
cmotd's collection is an astonishingly valuable archive to have survived - both in terms of the history of motor racing and that of film studies - [ ... ]
ciao,
Stirling


Not of the same rank, but the same category, I think: have you seen THESE?

Frank S
San Diego CA USA

#735 Stirling

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 07:21

No, I hadn't seen these either, Frank. Superb stuff! Over forty years on it's becoming clear that more than had previously been hoped for has survived from the making of Grand Prix - at least in the form of archives of still photography. There's certainly enough to illustrate a top notch Grand Prix book along the lines of A French Kiss With Death . And I just wonder if we're yet to be amazed with the emergence of some outtake footage................

ciao,
Stirling

#736 smarjoram

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 12:58

What a find - and what a story to go with it. I wonder what happened to the negatives? Looking at those and the photos in the other link I'm sure there's plenty of material for an excellent book. I'd buy it :)

#737 MrMacca

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 14:29

While we have all these photos, together with the Pillette archive, Cahier's, LAT, etc., we need the stories behind them to produce the definitive book - that means talking to the participants while they are still with us.......Phil Hill, Jim Russell, Bob Bondurant, the chief cameraman (Stevens?), Dan Gurney, etc.

Right, I want a volunteer with time and contacts, as well as skill and interest...........Gary?


Paul M

#738 jonpollak

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 15:42

cmotd...
Ok... one just one request.
That pic on roll 260 of Françoise in the # 7 Ferrari

I need a new screenpicture
THAT'S THE ONE
Pretty please?

Jp

#739 cmotd

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 18:14

This seems to be degenerating into the Françoise Hardy fan site! She does seem to appear in an awful lot of the photos, usually in the company of Mr Frankenheimer. Did they have a thing going I wonder! Will see what I can do - there is a limit to the amount you can enlarge these photos though. How large a resolution do you want?

I am a bit busy for the next week and will not have time to do any more scanning so please be patient.

In the meantime, here are a couple of shots, from about a hundred, showing the setting up of the "Sarti accident" at Stavelot on the Spa circuit.



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And, for those who need yet another fix:

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#740 jonpollak

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 19:23

Oh you tease.... :up: (I shall wait ever so patiently)

Needless to say that shot of Françoise signing the insurance waiver will tide me over.

Greatest thanks again cmotd
Jp

#741 f1steveuk

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 19:53

JP, so there you are!!

#742 Keir

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 13:14

You'll notice the driver controling the "spinner" car is Chris Amon !!

#743 MrMacca

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 09:46

It looks like CAA in his Aron helmet; but Jim Russell also drove the spinner IIRC, Keir. (BTW, sorry the motorcycle thread has overtaken the famous Amon thread in length.......... :blush: )

I think some of those shots were used in the Jim Russell biography - must check later.

And the first Monza paddock shot of a naked car and 3 nosecones isn't one of the GP 'kiddy-cars' - it appears to be a Lotus 41. Was there an F3 support race at the GP?

Paul M

#744 M Needforspeed

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 15:01

Originally posted by Keir
Y

fu'll notice the driver controling the "spinner" car is Chris Amon !!


Originally posted by MrMacca
It looks like CAA in his Aron helmet; but Jim Russell also drove the spinner IIRC, Keir. (BTW, sorry the motorcycle thread has overtaken the famous Amon thread in length.......... :blush: )

Paul M

yes Bjorn is right,Paul.it' s definitly Chris Amon (since then Chris had a special motivation to do well at CF).They came back in CF again in June /July 66 again to have the rushes with the special effects cars the Ford GT 40 and the Cooper spinner car)

source : Patrice Besqueut witness on Charade track book 1958 - 88 ;the first one shot is at Clermont Ferrand track with the pits Shell adverts reflecting in the window .

going there too I wrote something about Chris "smiling when frightening"
it is after those special effects test than Chris decided to wear the Aron Helmet

http://forum.rscnet....?t=67548&page=5 (meddle page)

Originally posted by jonpollak
cmotd...
Ok... one just one request.
That pic on roll 260 of Françoise in the # 7 Ferrari

I need a new screenpicture
THAT'S THE ONE
Pretty please?

Jp



Posted Image

perhaps this one isn 't too far what you are searching for...

(sorry if the FH orientation keep going on :( )

#745 jonpollak

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 16:01

....day dreaming in the sunshine.
Flippin' gorgeous

Bless you and thanks again M Needforspeed
Jp

#746 Rob29

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 16:19

Originally posted by MrMacca


And the first Monza paddock shot of a naked car and 3 nosecones isn't one of the GP 'kiddy-cars' - it appears to be a Lotus 41. Was there an F3 support race at the GP?

Paul M

Support race was F3 Trofeo AGIP-but no Lotus 41s entered-only Lotus was Roland Binder's 27.Lots of Wainers,De Santis,Branca,Foglietti,Brabhams & Coopers.Can't remember what a Foglietti looked like,if I ever saw one :)

#747 Barry Boor

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 16:31

They look something like this:

Posted Image

Well, at least, this one does.

#748 Macca

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 19:38

Well, it seems numbers10, 19 and 20 were all entered by Escuderia Argentina Automondo and were Brabhams; so not a Lotus 41.

Oddly one was down to be driven by Baghetti, who was driving a Parnell Lotus-BRM in the GP but then was given the spare Ferrari 246 for the race; an F1 driver in a F3?


Paul M

#749 David Beard

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 20:31

Originally posted by Barry Boor
They look something like this:

Posted Image

Well, at least, this one does.


Blimey, pushrod suspension?

#750 M Needforspeed

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 21:03

Originally posted by Macca
Baghetti, who was driving a Parnell Lotus-BRM in the GP but then was given the spare Ferrari 246 for the race; an F1 driver in a F3?


Paul M


...I was surprised like you but Giancarlo Baghetti switched back to F3 in 67 too, were he disputed some races in Italy and even won a Monza race with the Branca F3, then driving again the Lotus 49 WOrks team for the Italian GP 67 .