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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#851 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 19:23

Originally posted by Macca
Both Stoddart and Sarti had their helmets come off in their big crashes........you'd think Sarti would have learned his lesson about tightening the strap at Spa where his helmet seemingly came off and then fell back into place on his head by the time the marshalls hauled him out:

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Paul M


Paul,

I think Jean-Pierre gave up on the elastic chin straps after Spa (they can be deadly) and switched to the Griffin "frangible" chin straps like Stoddard used.

Bob Mackenzie

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#852 dbltop

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 19:30

One would think he would learn. What a dummy!

#853 fines

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 20:05

1,321,000,004

I guess by now you can count me in, too! [to myself]This is getting far to(o) anoraky for my taste...[/to myself]

#854 cheesy poofs

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 20:54

Originally posted by David Beard


Is the actor in th red fake car driving without gloves?


Nah, looks like he is wearing gloves.

#855 Lee200

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 22:34

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie


Paul,

I think Jean-Pierre gave up on the elastic chin straps after Spa (they can be deadly) and switched to the Griffin "frangible" chin straps like Stoddard used.

Bob Mackenzie


I'm with Bob. At Spa, Sarti must have been using one of those new bungee cord chinstraps which became so fashionable among the jet setters and 60s mod crowd. Hanging around Louise Frederickson and her fashion cronies inevitably resulted in him tossing safety to the wind in deference to his public image.

Just as he was pulled from the wrecked Ferrari, I heard him ask one of the track marshals; "How does my hair look?"

Lee

#856 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 23:36

I don't usually explain my references as I expect my audience to be highly intelligent and astoundingly well-read (like me! :rotfl: ) However, I may have gone too far with my reference to Griffin "frangible" chin straps. In the mid-seventies, the latest and greatest helmet used by certain Formula One heros was the Griffin helmet. Unfortunately this helmet proved to have a nasty tendency to depart the scene in heavy impacts leaving the poor hero race driver quite exposed. When faced with a not inconsiderable amount of criticism over these events the manufacturer responded that their helmets were designed with chin straps retained with "frangible" pins. This was intended to allow the helmet to disappear without subjecting the driver's neck to undo strain. (Who needs a HANS device when you're wearing this marvel of engineering?)

Not surprisingly, the response to this explanation was, to say the least, derisive. The derision was best represented by a photograph in Autosport of Tony Brise rounding a corner with a bird sitting on the track a few feet from his front wheel and clearly about to be sent express to the promised land. The caption to the picture explained that the bird in question was "Griffin, the frangible pigeon".

Bob Mackenzie

#857 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 23:39

Originally posted by dbltop
One would think he would learn. What a dummy!


Ouch! I just got that. I hate those delayed reactions!

Bob Mackenzie

#858 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 00:46

I've enjoyed catching up on this unearthed thread, and was amazed to find that all these years I've laboured under the misconception that Pete Aron's iconic helmet was the same as my hero and his alter ego (alter hero??) Chris Amon's. I never realised the blue and red were transposed :o :o

I think the film is great, but then I think I still see it through the eyes of a 12 year old in the body of a 52 year old!

And talking of other racing films being 'Drivel' (in previous posts), I was surprised to see no mention of Sly Stallone's 'Driven', which indeed should have had its final 'n' replaced by 'l'.

I think 'Grand Prix' may well have been responsible in part for my becoming a big Chris Amon fan, and it was certainly part of the motivation that led me to the Monza banking in 2006...in a Nissan not a Yamura though...

(anyone interested might need to scroll down the page http://forums.autosp...?postid=2480343

Thanks for pointing out all the continuity bloomers, must watch more closely next time!

Rob :wave:

#859 Lee200

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 03:29

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob


And talking of other racing films being 'Drivel' (in previous posts), I was surprised to see no mention of Sly Stallone's 'Driven', which indeed should have had its final 'n' replaced by 'l'.


I completely agree with that. :) Driven/l was the worst racing movie ever made.

Great pics of Monza by the way. :up:

Lee

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#860 Ivan

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 04:08

GF got me the Making of Grand Prix...Most of it is a waste of time until you get to the 1hour 15min 50sec. It shows Lorenzo Bandini burned to death and being pulled from his car!
There are other terrible things shown as well but, that is the worst one.

#861 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 17:01

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
I think the film is great, but then I think I still see it through the eyes of a 12 year old in the body of a 52 year old!


Rob,

I agree 100% (in both age and viewpoint expressed)!:lol:

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
And talking of other racing films being 'Drivel' (in previous posts), I was surprised to see no mention of Sly Stallone's 'Driven', which indeed should have had its final 'n' replaced by 'l'.


And what about that other recent motor racing classic "Days of Thunder"? (At least I've seen that one. Mind you I've never been able to force myself to watch it again.)

Bob Mackenzie

#862 fines

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 17:28

I once saw a snippet (maybe a minute or two) of "Days of Thunder", and was aghast! Nothing to do with my loathing of Taxi Cab racing, but simply with the fact that a movie production could be so insulting of its customer's intelligence - iirc the snippet showed a (professional!) racing driver returning to a race from a pitstop for crash repairs, and simply wait for another car to put it bluntly into the wall, and go on to win the race after all! :rolleyes: I never spend another second thinking about that movie... :lol:

As for "Driven", I have never in my life even considered watching a movie that is produced and directed by a certified moron.

#863 Macca

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 12:53

I have never in my life managed to sit through more than a few seconds of either the Cruise film or the Stallone film...........

Getting back to the question of the real Italian GP; the entry list had Spence and Baghetti in Lotus-BRMs #42 and 44, Trevor Taylor was entered as #46 in the Shannon and Frank Gardner as #50 in the Willment-Climax (both DNA). This was a 1964 BRP bought by Willment and fitted with one of Paul Emery's 3-litre Climax FPE engines - it was tested by John Blunsdon for 'Motor Racing' magazine but wasn't race-ready for Monza, and in fact only ever raced in the Oulton Park Gold Cup driven by Trevor Taylor (I doubt whether Gardner would have fitted into it, as it was built for the slim Innes Ireland and Blunsdon could barely drive it).

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Baghetti had the gearbox break on his Lotus, so Ferrari lent Parnell the Dino 2.4 which took #44; it can be seen in the Aron visit to the Ferrari factory (as can several 36-valve V12 engines) which was supposed to be just after Monaco, but must have been filmed in September.

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Real Ferraris appear in the Monza onboard footage; both Bandini and Parkes are seen overtaking various fakes, one of them a strange green car carrying #44, and a fake Ferrari also passes a real Lotus 25.

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The MGM McLaren camera-car was also painted red for the staged start (behind the Yamura on the left)--------and driven by Scarfiotti! More on that later....

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And here is a belated scan of that 'Motor' photo of the real start, showing Spence's car to be white:

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Paul M

Edited by Macca, 25 June 2012 - 14:24.


#864 Lee200

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 17:13

Good work Paul,

You probably noted we included Baghetti in #44 for the minimod.

That screenshot of the Lotus resulted in Clark being #22.

I had no idea whose green #44 that was supposed to simulate so I ignored it.

It has always amazed me that Frankenheimer was able to produce a starting grid that was close in size to the actual race.

Or that Emilio Largo was the Ferrari team chief.

Lee

#865 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 17:38

Paul,

Thanks for posting the picture of the start. It answers several questions that I still had. For one thing, I was wrong about the car behind Spence in the movie still I posted of the real start. I said that I thought it was Bonnier but it is clearly Baghetti. (In the red blur that passes under the camera I thought I had seen two white stripes on the nose.) Bonnier must have made an absolutely abysmal start as he was 12th on the grid but last away. Clark has his hand up and is fading fast. In spite of his front row start, he's not even in the top 15 or 16 cars that appear in the very brief sequence in the movie. The only cars that don't appear in this sequence are Clark, "Geki", Gurney and Bonnier.

Well, that's not entirely correct because I don't think the leading Ferrari is shown either. They appear tightly bunched in the picture Paul has posted, but by the time they get down to the spot where the movie sequence was filmed (the camera must have been on the scoring tower across from the entrance to the north banking) one of the Ferraris must have pulled out a fair lead and is out of the picture before the sequence starts. From my Michael Frostick book I had assumed that this would have been Scarfiotti. He describes the start stating that Surtees and Scarfiotti kept their cars creeping forward after they moved onto the grid:

"and were in fact hanging back ready to jump the gun and make the most of it when the flag should fall. And indeed when the moment did come Scarfiotti was comfortably on the move and, therefore, well out in front with Ginther close behind him making an absolutely splendid noise."

Paul's picture makes me wonder if the author didn't have Bandini and Scarfiotti mixed up because Bandini has already come through from the second row to take the lead and Scarfiotti doesn't appear to have any kind of edge over his fellow front row starter Parkes or third row starter Ginther.

In any event, it must be Bandini that is already out of the picture in the movie sequence.

The still showing #44 at Maranello is fascinating as I never had any inkling of the story behind it until now.

Bob Mackenzie

#866 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 17:46

Originally posted by Lee200
Good work Paul,

You probably noted we included Baghetti in #44 for the minimod.

That screenshot of the Lotus resulted in Clark being #22.

I had no idea whose green #44 that was supposed to simulate so I ignored it.

It has always amazed me that Frankenheimer was able to produce a starting grid that was close in size to the actual race.

Or that Emilio Largo was the Ferrari team chief.

Lee


Lee,

Having never seen "Thunderball", my immediate reaction was "Emilio who?" However, a quick trip to Wikipedia answered my question. Only where's his eyepatch?

Bob Mackenzie

#867 doc knutsen

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 17:57

Originally posted by Lee200

It has always amazed me that Frankenheimer was able to produce a starting grid that was close in size to the actual race.

Or that Emilio Largo was the Ferrari team chief.

Lee


Some comeback for Largo, after the debacle in the Caribbean! I notice he'd had his eye problem sorted, too.

#868 Lee200

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 20:42

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie


Lee,

Having never seen "Thunderball", my immediate reaction was "Emilio who?" However, a quick trip to Wikipedia answered my question. Only where's his eyepatch?

Bob Mackenzie


Hi Bob,

Yes, Emilio Largo/Agostino Manetta were one and same...very sinister that he could be the #2 man at SPECTRE one year and the Ferrari team chief the next.

Makes me wonder if Bernie Ecclestone may now be SPECTRE #1? :confused:

Lee

#869 Lee200

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 20:48

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie
Paul,

Thanks for posting the picture of the start. It answers several questions that I still had. For one thing, I was wrong about the car behind Spence in the movie still I posted of the real start. I said that I thought it was Bonnier but it is clearly Baghetti. (In the red blur that passes under the camera I thought I had seen two white stripes on the nose.) Bonnier must have made an absolutely abysmal start as he was 12th on the grid but last away. Clark has his hand up and is fading fast. In spite of his front row start, he's not even in the top 15 or 16 cars that appear in the very brief sequence in the movie. The only cars that don't appear in this sequence are Clark, "Geki", Gurney and Bonnier.

Well, that's not entirely correct because I don't think the leading Ferrari is shown either. They appear tightly bunched in the picture Paul has posted, but by the time they get down to the spot where the movie sequence was filmed (the camera must have been on the scoring tower across from the entrance to the north banking) one of the Ferraris must have pulled out a fair lead and is out of the picture before the sequence starts. From my Michael Frostick book I had assumed that this would have been Scarfiotti. He describes the start stating that Surtees and Scarfiotti kept their cars creeping forward after they moved onto the grid:

"and were in fact hanging back ready to jump the gun and make the most of it when the flag should fall. And indeed when the moment did come Scarfiotti was comfortably on the move and, therefore, well out in front with Ginther close behind him making an absolutely splendid noise."

Paul's picture makes me wonder if the author didn't have Bandini and Scarfiotti mixed up because Bandini has already come through from the second row to take the lead and Scarfiotti doesn't appear to have any kind of edge over his fellow front row starter Parkes or third row starter Ginther.

In any event, it must be Bandini that is already out of the picture in the movie sequence.

The still showing #44 at Maranello is fascinating as I never had any inkling of the story behind it until now.

Bob Mackenzie


Bob,

Just to be sure we're not mixing fiction with reality (one can never tell in this thread and we really need a tongue in cheek smilie), my DVD doesn't have any real world shots of the race start.

For the minimod, I carefully identified all the movie grid drivers, then added in a few real world drivers at the end to make the full 19 AI field.

The most confusion to me was how Tim Randolph was wearing Mike Spence's helmet on the start.  ;)

Lee

#870 Odseybod

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 10:35

I was lucky enough to be at the Italian GP in 1966 and remember all the hoo-haa surrounding the film crew - quite exciting for a 15-year-old to watch (the racing wasn't bad either :) ) As far as I recall, they were doing most of the actual filming in the week after the GP but spent a lot of both practice days teeing up various shots. One bit of excitement came when the Cobra camera car limped in with a shredded rear wing after a tyre threw its tread, I think on the banking. Not sure who was driving it at the time (or whether it needed washable upholstery).

#871 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 19:59

Originally posted by Lee200


Bob,

Just to be sure we're not mixing fiction with reality (one can never tell in this thread and we really need a tongue in cheek smilie), my DVD doesn't have any real world shots of the race start.

Lee


Lee,

Just remember, reality is for people who can't handle drugs. :lol:

Actually, I'm sure you do have real world shots of the race start on your DVD. (Or is that Hollyworld shots of the real race start?) Early in the race (the fake race not the real race) Jean-Pierre Sarti is screaming along the banking and coming up to pass two cars. The scene suddenly shifts to a painting of Jean-Pierre underneath which Louise is sitting nervously reviewing her fashion article (we presume) with a magnifying glass trying to take her mind off the race taking place only a short distance away. The scene then shifts back to the race and there is a very brief sequence with cars screaming past underneath the camera. Then the scene shifts to Pete Aron's "none of us really like Monza"/slipstreaming voice over sequence. That very brief shot right after the shot of Louise worrying and before Pete's lecture on slipstreaming is a shot of the actual race showing the field heading down to Curva Grande on the first lap right after the flag has dropped (the real flag, not the fake flag).

The stills I posted earlier were taken from that very brief shot. Frankenheimer wasn't trying to show the real start of the race. I presume he just wanted to work in a shot of a lot of cars flying past to capture the sense of speed and the tightness of the action. He wrongly assumed that years after making this movie there would not be the technology and people with way too much time on their hands to allow his clever film editing to be exposed.

And yes, a "tongue in cheek" smilie would be very useful here!

Bob Mackenzie

#872 TooTall

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 20:16

Originally posted by Lee200


Makes me wonder if Bernie Ecclestone may now be SPECTRE #1? :confused:

Lee


That would of course make Max Mosley #2 ....... but we already knew that.;)

Kurt O.

#873 Lee200

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 23:00

Originally posted by Odseybod
I was lucky enough to be at the Italian GP in 1966 and remember all the hoo-haa surrounding the film crew - quite exciting for a 15-year-old to watch (the racing wasn't bad either :) ) As far as I recall, they were doing most of the actual filming in the week after the GP but spent a lot of both practice days teeing up various shots. One bit of excitement came when the Cobra camera car limped in with a shredded rear wing after a tyre threw its tread, I think on the banking. Not sure who was driving it at the time (or whether it needed washable upholstery).


Tony,

I bet that was exciting. I'd be excited to see that even now.  ;)

If it were Phil Hill driving the Cobra, I doubt they needed to clean the upholstery. On the DVD, Gurney talks about how they were fillming in the rain at Spa and all the drivers in the formula cars slowed way down only to be passed by Phil Hill in the GT40 film car. :)

Lee

#874 Lee200

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 23:04

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie


Lee,

Just remember, reality is for people who can't handle drugs. :lol:

Actually, I'm sure you do have real world shots of the race start on your DVD. (Or is that Hollyworld shots of the real race start?) Early in the race (the fake race not the real race) Jean-Pierre Sarti is screaming along the banking and coming up to pass two cars. The scene suddenly shifts to a painting of Jean-Pierre underneath which Louise is sitting nervously reviewing her fashion article (we presume) with a magnifying glass trying to take her mind off the race taking place only a short distance away. The scene then shifts back to the race and there is a very brief sequence with cars screaming past underneath the camera. Then the scene shifts to Pete Aron's "none of us really like Monza"/slipstreaming voice over sequence. That very brief shot right after the shot of Louise worrying and before Pete's lecture on slipstreaming is a shot of the actual race showing the field heading down to Curva Grande on the first lap right after the flag has dropped (the real flag, not the fake flag).

The stills I posted earlier were taken from that very brief shot. Frankenheimer wasn't trying to show the real start of the race. I presume he just wanted to work in a shot of a lot of cars flying past to capture the sense of speed and the tightness of the action. He wrongly assumed that years after making this movie there would not be the technology and people with way too much time on their hands to allow his clever film editing to be exposed.

And yes, a "tongue in cheek" smilie would be very useful here!

Bob Mackenzie


Hi Bob,

Oh, I hadn't looked farther along in the race...only at the start. Good catch.

BTW, have you noticed Sarti's car when he finally leaves the starting line after his stall? The rear of the car sure looks like an actual 312 to me.

Lee

#875 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 01:16

Originally posted by Lee200
BTW, have you noticed Sarti's car when he finally leaves the starting line after his stall? The rear of the car sure looks like an actual 312 to me.

Lee


Lee,

Yes, when he starts waving people away and starts trying to restart the engine, his "Ferrari" FJ suddenly becomes the real thing. And when it finally catches he roars off from the grid and across the start finish line even though he originally crossed the line as he stalled.

When you mentioned Tim Randolph wearing Mike Spence's helmet I went back and looked at the staged start. Actually, there were two staged starts. In one, the camera is in front of Sarti and he stalls right in front of it. You can tell there were two staged starts because in the first, the "Spence" Yamura passes Sarti on his right just as #50 (pretty sure it was the BRM P261) is beginning to pass him on his left.

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The next angle is from the camera you can see off to the left in the first start and the #50 is nowhere to be seen as "Spence" passes Sarti. (You can't tell it's the "Spence" Yamura beside Sarti but it is. I took the still with it as close to the same position relative to Sarti as the first shot.)

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This is after "Spence" has passed Sarti from a different angle and you can see the BRM is still well back:

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Even though I keep referring to Spence in quotation marks, it is almost certainly him driving the Yamura. I just don't know who he is supposed to be. Tim Randolph (alias Phil Hill) started on the second row with Barlini. In the shot below Spence is the car directly behind Sarti already beginning to negotiate around him even though Sarti hadn't actually stalled yet. How did he know that was going to happen?

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I tried to make some sense out of the starting grid behind the second row with regard to cars shown and drivers' names mentioned during the staged race but it gave me a headache. For instance, there is at least one works Lotus and one works Cooper shown in the staged racing scenes but there are no works Loti or Coopers on the staged starting grid. And there is only one Eagle shown starting but there are two different ones in the staged race.

I think I'd better take a break. I've obsessed enough for one day.

Bob Mackenzie

#876 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 09:34

Bob, I REALLY think you've got to get out more! :)

#877 drivers71

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 10:49

Just finished reading one of my Christmas presents - the excellent John Horsman book 'Racing in the rain'.
John was Engineer, eventually team manager (after David Yorke departed) of the John Wyer Engineering Gulf Oil sponsored sports car teams. He recounts in great detail the work JWE undertook to prepare cars for the 'Le Mans' filming, including butchering an original GT40 to act as a camera car! I can't recommend this book too highly; for it's detail, thoroughness and entertaining syle of writing.

#878 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 19:47

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Bob, I REALLY think you've got to get out more! :)


Barry,

It's starting to show isn't it? :lol:

Maybe I should take a break and obsess about a different movie for a while. Let's see, if I micro-analyze "The Sound of Music" I wonder what editing tricks I can expose?

Bob Mackenzie

#879 Macca

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 20:54

Don't worry Bob, Barry said something similar to me a few pages ago................... :p

The true believer perseveres, whether with movie analysis, slotcars or whatever....

The Sarti Ferrari that does a standing start is indeed a real one; also when Barlini comes into the pits during practise and commiserates with Sarti about his car being absent, he is driving a real one. In both shots it's the earlier 24-valve engine, so must have been filmed before the GP as Ferrari had three 1966 F1 cars and fitted them all with 36-valve engines for the race.

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And here is another angle on the Monza start, with Randolph and the other Yamura, and also the McLaren-Ford camera-car to the left, now painted red to be the third Ferrari:

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The credits give the name of the third Yamura driver as McLendon; although played by Spence at Monza, in the pit scene at Clermont-Ferrand he looks like Bob Bondurant......


Paul M


ps. here is a snippet of the actual car driven by Surtees at Spa and Bandini at Monza, when it was owned by Albert Obrist in Switzerland a few years ago; it's now owned by BCE.....


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#880 vashlin

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 21:55

Oh My Gosh!

I am enjoying this thread immensely!

I return to it from time to time to see what new snippets have been uncovered for me to justify hauling out the DVD yet again for another run. Saw the movie in the theatre when it first came out and have lost track of the number of subsequent viewings.

We've done lots of pausing, freeze-framing ("Wait, go back!") But it seems to offer endless opportunities for this. It may (MAY?) be slightly obsessive...but it's so much fun. And I'm still wiping my eyes over Griffin the Frangible pigeon. Literal tears of laughter. :lol:

LinC

#881 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:08

:)

LinC,

I'm glad you're enjoying this thread too. I'm having a lot of fun with it. When I get on the computer it's usually to practice "Grand Prix Legends". But before I fire up GPL I always check the forum to see what's been posted. And as there is usually something new to respond to I get sucked in. And as you can see, I get carried away very easily and I often don't end up running GPL at all. It's playing havoc with my racing career!

This is by far my favourite thread in the forum and I can't help but be obsessive about it. Ever since I went to the movies with my friends that cold winter night forty years ago I've been addicted to racing and especially the movie "Grand Prix" as badly as any crack or heroine addict is to their "poison". (Although I haven't had to break into liquor stores to support my habit.) I'm seriously considering petitioning the administrators of this forum to have the title of this thread changed to "How John Frankenheimer Ruined My Life"! :rotfl:

Bob Mackenzie

#882 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:24

Somewhat O/T I must confess, Bob, but in connection with the affect that 'Grand Prix' has had on you, I've often wondered just where I'd be and what I'd be doing today if Mosport had never been built. Pursue my first love perhaps? Astronomy.

#883 George Cunningham

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:48

If Mosport had not been built I expect I'd be flogging my car around the Shannonville track but perhaps not enjoying it quite so much.

I first saw the film Grand Prix at a ratty little theatre in Markham, Ontario; I suppose the film had some influence but attending the CanAm and GP races at Mosport during the 1970s is what really got me interested racing.

#884 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 13:46

It actually sends a shiver up my spine when I think about it. What if my friend hadn't called me to see if I wanted to go to the movies. It wasn't my idea. They were already going and I had never had any prior desire to go see a movie called "Grand Prix". My younger brother had some interest in cars and racing already but at twelve years old, my only interests were hockey, girls and things military.

If it hadn't been for that phone call, I would have ended up a boring lawyer instead of a boring mechanical engineer!:eek:

By the way Manfred, did you know that John Nemy, former Ferret driver of some repute, is also heavily into astronomy. I haven't seen him since our Mosport/Shannonville days but he is originally from right here in Fonthill. I found out about his astronomical interests from his brother Paul (our daughters were on the same basketball team one year). John lives in BC now and I gather makes his living from his astronomical pursuits.

Bob Mackenzie

#885 COUGAR508

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 20:35

Originally posted by vashlin
Oh My Gosh!

I am enjoying this thread immensely!

I return to it from time to time to see what new snippets have been uncovered for me to justify hauling out the DVD yet again for another run. Saw the movie in the theatre when it first came out and have lost track of the number of subsequent viewings.

We've done lots of pausing, freeze-framing ("Wait, go back!") But it seems to offer endless opportunities for this. It may (MAY?) be slightly obsessive...but it's so much fun. And I'm still wiping my eyes over Griffin the Frangible pigeon. Literal tears of laughter. :lol:

LinC


The great thing is, whenever I view the DVD again, I find something which I hadn't noticed before. This is usually a piece of racing action, or a glimpse of one of the actors/drivers/extras in a scene.

#886 Macca

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 19:22

Here's another thing that caught my eye...in the helicopter coverage of the real Monaco GP there is a green single-seater parked in a recess in the sea-wall at the tunnel entrance - but what?

Clark's Lotus broke at the Gasworks, so Anderson's Brabham is the most likely, except that the car appears not to have a white stripe.

Posted Image


Paul M

#887 Barry Boor

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 19:51

Too dark for Anderson. Probably a film car left there for effect.

#888 Macca

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 21:09

You could be right, BB. MGM had 3 Lotus 25/33s, one of which was used by Phil Hill in Monaco GP practise for filming carrying no. 20, which is visible with the 'kiddy cars' on top of the old railway viaduct in a still I posted earlier.

By the time of the Belgian GP there was a 25/33 faked-up as a Yamura, and for the staged French GP at Clermont-Ferrand another was faked-up as a Ferrari and driven down the streets by Montand, but Chris Amon was in an unmodified Team Lotus one at the circuit; and I think all three are seen on the grid at Brands.

The car in the lay-by by the tunnel certainly has the shape of a real 25, and the wheels too.

With the lack of a yellow stripe perhaps it's R8, the Paul Hawkins car...............only that was a lighter shade of green!!!

Paul M

#889 M Needforspeed

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 21:20

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie
:)

LinC,

I'm glad you're enjoying this thread too. I'm having a lot of fun with it. When I get on the computer it's usually to practice "Grand Prix Legends". But before I fire up GPL I always check the forum to see what's been posted. And as there is usually something new to respond to I get sucked in. And as you can see, I get carried away very easily and I often don't end up running GPL at all. It's playing havoc with my racing career!

This is by far my favourite thread in the forum and I can't help but be obsessive about it. Ever since I went to the movies with my friends that cold winter night forty years ago I've been addicted to racing and especially the movie "Grand Prix" as badly as any crack or heroine addict is to their "poison". (Although I haven't had to break into liquor stores to support my habit.) I'm seriously considering petitioning the administrators of this forum to have the title of this thread changed to "How John Frankenheimer Ruined My Life"! :rotfl:

Bob Mackenzie


I copy/paste what you say !;) same feelings, here ...

Michel

#890 Maldwyn

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 08:48

I sat and watched the film again last night and enjoyed it as always, but someone was right earlier when they said you spot 'new' things every time. I'd never noticed Jochen Rindt's attempted trip on Graham Hill during the drivers meeting at Spa before :)

#891 Lee200

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 20:28

One thing that is buggin' me is how to tell the difference between the various cars used during the movie. I've starting collecting pics of the real world cars and taking notes on the visual differences in the front and rear suspensions.

I know that Bonnier drove a 1.5L BT7 at Brands that was doctored to look like a Ferrari. BT11s were used in other parts of the movie to simulate Ferraris as well.

My question is: What is the difference between the BT7 and BT11?

I thought at one time that the BT7 had a front upper wishbone that was reinforced by another crossmember while the BT11 lacked this additional reinforcement. However I've found photos that show just the opposite.

Anyone know?

Lee

#892 Ivan

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 02:44

Originally posted by Maldwyn
I'd never noticed Jochen Rindt's attempted trip on Graham Hill during the drivers meeting at Spa before :)

I used to think that it was a blooper that was left in, but, I crack up laughing everytime I see that scene.

#893 Macca

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 21:30

Originally posted by Lee200
One thing that is buggin' me is how to tell the difference between the various cars used during the movie. I've starting collecting pics of the real world cars and taking notes on the visual differences in the front and rear suspensions.

I know that Bonnier drove a 1.5L BT7 at Brands that was doctored to look like a Ferrari. BT11s were used in other parts of the movie to simulate Ferraris as well.

My question is: What is the difference between the BT7 and BT11?

I thought at one time that the BT7 had a front upper wishbone that was reinforced by another crossmember while the BT11 lacked this additional reinforcement. However I've found photos that show just the opposite.

Anyone know?

Lee


It seems to be very difficult to tell the BT7 from the BT11; the BT11 was slimmer and tidier according to all sources, but this isn't readily visible, and the BT7s had their bodywork and suspension updated to BT11 standard for 1964 and ran the same new 13" tyres. Brabham and Gurney used the updated BT7s for much of 1964, and the first three BT11s were delivered to Rob Walker, Jo Siffert and Bob Anderson.

The first Rob Walker car was then sold to Willment for 1965, and then to John Bridges and was driven by John Taylor in 1966, and one of the BT7-Climaxes was sold to Rob Walker for Bonnier to drive.

Then MGM bought lots of obsolete cars for the film, including several Brabhams. I think the car disguised as a Ferrari was an ex-works one, and Bonnier also drove a blue one in practise at Brands which was probably his old Walker car. The white 'Yamura' one no. 32 that Chris Amon practised at Monza was probably the other Walker car, ex-Siffert.

Another car which appears to be a BT7 or BT11 is visible at the start of the staged Italian GP passing Sarti when he stalls; it is faked as a BT19-Repco but has white wheels, characteristic of Rob Walker cars.

Posted Image Posted Image

Paul M

#894 Lee200

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 00:11

Originally posted by Macca


It seems to be very difficult to tell the BT7 from the BT11; the BT11 was slimmer and tidier according to all sources, but this isn't readily visible, and the BT7s had their bodywork and suspension updated to BT11 standard for 1964 and ran the same new 13" tyres. Brabham and Gurney used the updated BT7s for much of 1964, and the first three BT11s were delivered to Rob Walker, Jo Siffert and Bob Anderson.

The first Rob Walker car was then sold to Willment for 1965, and then to John Bridges and was driven by John Taylor in 1966, and one of the BT7-Climaxes was sold to Rob Walker for Bonnier to drive.

Then MGM bought lots of obsolete cars for the film, including several Brabhams. I think the car disguised as a Ferrari was an ex-works one, and Bonnier also drove a blue one in practise at Brands which was probably his old Walker car. The white 'Yamura' one no. 32 that Chris Amon practised at Monza was probably the other Walker car, ex-Siffert.

Another car which appears to be a BT7 or BT11 is visible at the start of the staged Italian GP passing Sarti when he stalls; it is faked as a BT19-Repco but has white wheels, characteristic of Rob Walker cars.

Paul M


Hi Paul,

Thanks for the information. I didn't know the BT7 used updated BT11 suspensions so that rules out making a visual identification based on the upper wishbone. :p

Lee

#895 Macca

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 17:51

Here's Barlini at Brands; Sarti was in a Lotus 20 'Ferrari' for this race, and a third 'Ferrari' glimpsed on the grid was a Lotus 25.

Posted Image


Paul M

#896 Macca

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 21:53

How quickly threads slip back through the pages................

anyway, I was lucky enough to talk to Chris Lawrence at Stoneleigh yesterday, and I asked him about involvement in filming at Brands. He said for the filming in the week after the race, his Cooper-Ferrari was painted with scarlet emulsion (so it could be washed off) and he wore a Mike Parkes/Sarti helmet.

So I'll have to look again to see whether there is a glimpse in the film or whether he ended up on the cutting-room floor; he could certainly be seen at the start of the real British GP that was used in the film, in the green car with the white nose:

Posted Image


Paul M

#897 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 22:05

I guess it is Bonnier in the red "Ferrari" alongside Ligier's Cooper...?

#898 vashlin

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 19:09

What did anyone who saw it think of Speedtv's hommage to "Grand Prix" in the opening of their coverage for the Australian GP?

Not directed by Frankenheimer but it made me smile. Nice to see this movie from the 60s is so iconic and well-loved.

And they even used the theme music from the movie. :D

LinC

#899 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 21:38

Yes, I caught that linkage. Satisfactory intro. :)

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#900 Lemans

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 01:52

i enjoyed the bow to "Grand Prix" the movie as well. Wish old clips and sounds could open each GP.