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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#951 Maldwyn

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 20:25

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I have that LP.

Me too :) The audio LP that is. It's many years since I've had a record player so the LP has been safely stored away for many years, but I do remember (don't laugh) recording it on cassette and playing this while in my 2CV. For some unknown reason I thought the sounds of F1 engines may impress people at traffic lights :lol: :rotfl:

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#952 MickyD

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 17:29

I used to work for the F1 commentator Anthony Marsh in the seventies/early eighties - he was the commentator / track announcer you can hear through the tannoys at the races in the film.

He told me that he was flown out to Hollywood and did all the voiceovers in a little sound box in the studio after the filming had all finished! Not very glamorous!

#953 Der Pate

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 14:14

Originally posted by Macca
When Sarti and Fangio enter the party after the Monaco GP, Scarfiotti is just behind them and Bandini appears too. Both Ginther and Gurney are at the drivers' meeting at Spa, but only Ginther(and McLaren and Rindt) speak. Jo Schlesser is glimpsed a couple of times. When Aron is being a TV reporter at Clermont Ferrand, it is indeed Chris Amon (in a dark blue helmet) to whom he says 'Hello Chris'.


In the German version Jochen Rindt has the line: "If it rains, we may not start!"...but it isn´t Jochen´s voice...it´s the voice of some actor...

#954 Macca

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 16:04

At that Spa drivers' meeting, in the English version, before we see the drivers we hear a voice describing conditions, then the camera pans back and Sarti replies to the unknown speaker as 'Bob', which was the name of Graham Hill's character (and then Graham walks through shot and Rindt tries to trip him).........but the voice isn't Hill's or any of the drivers, just an actor dubbing.

Paul M

#955 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 22:46

:eek: Oh my God!!! :eek:

Look what has become of Scott Stoddard! (This was in the entertainment section of today's Toronto Star.)

Posted Image

Bob Mackenzie

#956 ensign14

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 23:27

That's what hanging around with Bob Cowell will do to you.

#957 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 17:34

ensign14,

Do you mean the Robert Cowell that became Roberta Cowell?

Bob Mackenzie

#958 Macca

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 14:03

bedfordbracknell200_zps3249072a.jpg

 

...........or perhaps hanging around with Michelle Duff......

" A HANDBAG, Mr Jordan???"

With apologies to those who don't like this film (actually, as a film buff, the more I watch it the more I think of it as a piece of cinema - Frankenheimer was a damn good director), when I watched it again the other day I decided to find the garage used by the 'Ferrari' team near Clermont-Ferrand, seen when Sarti and Barlini drive their cars to the circuit.

It is in the village of Royat, just North-east of the circuit, and presumable gave access to the eastern end of the old circuit. Here are two screenshots from the film:

clfergar1.th.jpg clfergar2.th.jpg

and a birds-eye view nowadays, with thanks to MSN:

garagenearclermontf.jpg

It still appears to be a garage, but a new showroom has been built over the right-hand part of the forecourt and the signage is no longer there. The pattern of windows and the single-story bit to the left of the entrance are unmistakeable, however.

Next: the Stoddard family home then and now.


Paul M


Edited by Macca, 08 September 2013 - 14:22.


#959 Macca

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 13:50

Oh dear, seems that nobody else on TNF is interested in the locations........so here is a car question.

Here is a photo taken in the paddock at Brands Hatch in 1966. The car on the left is a Lotus 33, probably one of MGMs, and there are several Hertz rent-a-vans in the background, but can anybody work out what the other car is.

It appears to have low-level exhausts supported by brackets off the gearbox, but there also appear to be other exhaust headers visible above the suspension, and four tailpipes; and the man to the left seems to be recording something.

Paul M

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#960 Coral

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 14:15

Originally posted by Macca

Oh dear, seems that nobody else on TNF is interested in the locations........


I am interested Macca, I am obsessed by "Grand Prix" and I find your "then and now" pics fascinating. Keep on posting them! :)

#961 Breadmaster

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 18:41

Originally posted by Coral


I am interested Macca, I am obsessed by "Grand Prix" and I find your "then and now" pics fascinating. Keep on posting them! :)


I concur!

#962 Macca

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 19:46

OK, I shall continue with some more location stuff. Meanwhile:

Originally posted by Pils1989
I've found other pictures taken during the filming.

Posted Image
Bondurant, unknown, Pilette, Rindt, unknown


I think the second man from the left is 'Mimo' Dei, patron of Scuderia Centro-Sud, whose house was used as the location of Sarti's flat at Monza - see here

(there is another photo of him at
http://www.ferrarich...=89883&page=172
but you have to register to see it)

It may be Dei who greets Sarti and Louise when they first arrive - I shall have to look......

However I have found no sign of this house in or around Monza, so it may no longer exist.

Also I have had no luck locating the house used as the HQ of Yamura, when Izo Yamura and Aron have tea on the lawn served by geishas. It may be nowhere near Silversone (where I've been looking, since Yamura says to Aron at Clermont-Ferrand that's where to meet him), as the actual place used to film Aron's contract-signing and seat-fitting was Cooper's factory in Surbiton.

Paul M

#963 Pils1989

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 19:57

Thanks Paul for putting a name on a face :up:

#964 Macca

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 17:03

Here are screenshots of the front of the Stoddard house when Scott arrives to recuperate, and the side when he comes out to try the Lotus 16 which is then push-started round the corner:

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Going from David Beard's website, where Bill Wilks (owner of the 16) said it was shot near Goudhurst, here is Rectory Park which is about one-and-a-half miles north-west of Goudhurst (sadly it isn't yet available on Livesearch Birdseye view) :

Posted Image

1 is the front entrance - you can clearly see the shape of the castellated battlement and the bay window on the right
2 is the shed that the Lotus was in
3 is the side entrance where they emerged
4 is where it was push-started
5 is where Scott stopped to put his goggles on

The drive is not actually very long; here is the location on Google Maps:
http://maps.google.c...010943&t=h&z=17
...so perhaps Scott went out of the gate and round the countryside like DSJ!


Paul

#965 Keir

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 18:42

Really great stuff !! Keep it coming.

#966 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 23:35

Yes Paul, very informative, keep up the research, thanks.

But Paul - do you ever get tired? Of research I mean....

Rob :wave:

#967 Macca

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 17:26

There is no terrible way to research - there is only researching.............

:cool:

At the 'French Grand Prix' at Clermont-Ferrand, the Ferrari drivers are at a lake where Sarti teaches Louise to fish while Barlini takes Lisa out in a pedalo. Here is a still:

gourdetazenat5.jpg

This lake looked in the opposite view to be quite small with high sides - here is the Gour de Tazenet, a volcanic crater lake some miles north of the circuit:


gour-de-tazenat-1_zps9b1d07bd.jpg

and here are views showing that the pedalos and the jetty are still there, and the hotel seen in the background behind Sarti (it's just out of shot in the first view):

gourdetazenat2.jpg

gour-de-tazenat-4.jpg

Paul M


Edited by Macca, 08 September 2013 - 14:25.


#968 Keir

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 18:04

..... but are there any fish ??

#969 Barry Boor

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 19:02

Doesn't matter.... it's a big lake!

#970 fines

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 19:24

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
But Paul - do you ever get tired? Of research I mean....

:lol:

Originally posted by Macca
There is no terrible way to research - there is only researching.............

:rotfl:

#971 Glengavel

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 07:29

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
But Paul - do you ever get tired? Of research I mean....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Macca
There is no terrible way to research - there is only researching.............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everything else is just waiting...

#972 ensign14

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 09:12

Originally posted by Macca
Going from David Beard's website, where Bill Wilks (owner of the 16) said it was shot near Goudhurst, here is Rectory Park which is about one-and-a-half miles north-west of Goudhurst (sadly it isn't yet available on Livesearch Birdseye view) :

1 is the front entrance - you can clearly see the shape of the castellated battlement and the bay window on the right
2 is the shed that the Lotus was in
3 is the side entrance where they emerged
4 is where it was push-started
5 is where Scott stopped to put his goggles on

Should this not be on the GERCA thread?

#973 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 09:27

Originally posted by Macca
There is no terrible way to research - there is only researching.............


"That's the right attitude. All you have to do is research fast enough and long enough..."

Would Pete still have been champion under the 'most wins' system.....?

Rob :wave:

#974 Macca

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 14:36

Yes, on the countback they both would have a second but Aron also had a fifth. Barlini couldn't have won whatever he did at Monza (try telling that to the Tifosi!)

"If you want a day off tomorrow, just say so."

"I'm here to research - understand? To research!!!"

The hospital where Scott is taken in London is Barts - I thought it seemed familiar when I visited my old Dad there once. The stonework has all been cleaned up nowadays.

Posted Image

What I didn't notice before, as seen on this still, is that as the ambulance went in, a hearse was coming out! The dome just visible on the right is the Old Bailey.

Posted Image

Livesearch Maps view now:

Posted Image

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 31 August 2012 - 13:58.


#975 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 14:48

A couple more location shots - with apologies to those who have seen them before on other threads.

It was a strange (but fantastic! :eek: :eek: ) sensation driving on the banking. I kept my eyes open for stray exhaust pipes, and my other half had ordered me to just drive the car and not try to stand it on its bloody ear...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Rob :wave:

#976 Macca

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 19:36

Ah, the banking.........and the yellow line is still there - marvellous!

Now, another location - the scene where Aron takes tea on the lawn with Yamura was shot at Farnborough Hall, a National Trust property about 5 miles north of Banbury (so not actually near Silverstone at all). Here is a still:

farnboroughhallthen.th.jpg

and a recent view:

a1000062farnboroughhall.jpg

And here is a photo of the start of the Belgian GP showing Bondurant's BRM in its Yamura livery (copyright unknown) :[

 

URL=http://s1137.photobu...ad2bdd.jpg.html]66spa-start_zpsd3ad2bdd.jpg[/URL]




Paul M


Edited by Macca, 08 September 2013 - 14:30.


#977 Pullman99

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 09:31

Just noticed Kingsleyrob on the Monza banking. Hi Rob! :wave:

Hope to visit there in a few weeks. I understand that driving sessions are fairly straightforward. Do you have any details? Is thata hire car, by the way? Did they know?!!! :lol:

This is a great thread. There was a piece in one of the aeronautical mags a few years ago about the influence of the film "Battle of Britain" on historic aircraft preservation. Does anyone else thinlk that "grand Prix" had a significant influence on a) increased public awareness of F1 and motorsport in general and, b) the increasing interest in motorsport heritage during the past couple of decades including the huge success of the Goodwood events. For my own part, although I had been following motorsport prior to the film, it was from the 1966 F1 season that I first began to pursue a lifelong interest in cars and transport in general.

Allied to this background, the BBC (in Bristol, I tink) had a weekly magazine programme which was bit like a more mature "Blue Peter" that also followed the F1 season and featured the models of Rex Hays (I believe that his modesl ended up at the National Motor Museum0. I cannot remember the name of the programme but it was presented by a chap called Jeremy Carrad. They even created a wallchart with cut out 1966 F1 cars that you could send off for. I did :)

Do any of the Jim Russell created "fakes" survive, or haven't I read this thread properly? I remeber one being used at the school's base at Silvefrstone certainly as late as the mid-'70s to promote the school.

Regards to all.

#978 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 11:36

Originally posted by Pullman99
Allied to this background, the BBC (in Bristol, I tink) had a weekly magazine programme which was bit like a more mature "Blue Peter" that also followed the F1 season and featured the models of Rex Hays (I believe that his modesl ended up at the National Motor Museum0. I cannot remember the name of the programme but it was presented by a chap called Jeremy Carrad. They even created a wallchart with cut out 1966 F1 cars that you could send off for. I did :)

Have a look at this earlier thread, Ian:

The Tom Tom Grands Prix

#979 Pullman99

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:29

Hi Tim,

Thanks for that. I've always followed the dictum that "you only need to ask". I guess the name - Tom Tom - was chosen to suggest communication.

I think that Tom Tom's GP "coverage" began just before Monaco and I noted that in the original thread there are references to the wall chart. If you cut it out correctly, you could move the cars along as they scored points. Don't remeber the other presented mentioned, but there was an all-knowing robot/computer dog named "Serendipity". Must have been a prototype TNFr. :lol:

The orignial thread also mentiones the dearth of GP coverage although 1966 wasn't bad. I remember watching the Dutch, French, German and Italian GPs (with commentary by Raymond Baxter of course). What I don't remeber, however, is coverage of the Bristish GP at Brands. Presumably it was shown (in between bouts of excitement at the Rugby League and one-horsepower vehicles at the 3.15 at Kempton no doubt). I think it was at the Dutch (?) that Jack Brabham "hobbled" to his car whilst weariung a false long beard and using a walking stick. That race also saw one of the very best performances from Jim Clark in the Lotus 33 (chassis R14 presumably).

All this was hugely influential for me at the time.

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#980 Pullman99

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 07:00

Did anyone else see the BBC2 programme on Wednesday night (25th) "Alan Whicker, journey of a lifetime"?

There was a brief clip of "Whickers World" at Monaco in 1966 when AW followed John Frankenheimer's invasion. The clip showed the staged Scott / Pete BRM crash that ended in the harbour!

#981 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 09:00

Originally posted by Pullman99
Just noticed Kingsleyrob on the Monza banking. Hi Rob! :wave:

Hope to visit there in a few weeks. I understand that driving sessions are fairly straightforward. Do you have any details? Is thata hire car, by the way? Did they know?!!! :lol:

Hi Ian

Re the banking, no, I didn't mention to Europcar that I was intending to emulate Pete Aron when I signed the hire documentation.

It was a couple of years ago when I went, and although I believe it is straightforward to pay for a lap or two of the current circuit, that wasn't possible as I recall the lappping sessions were unavailable due to track maintenance. It was just a few weeks before the GP.

Undeterred, I still went in to mooch around and take in the atmosphere, it cost a few Euros. To my surprise, I was able to drive straight on to the banking, and had a good half hour zooming around north and south, walking around, climbing up to the top by foot, and taking photos. It was brilliant. I have a great affection for the banking as my fellow north west TNFers will testify. Many have seen my treasured piece of it, complete with 'Moss' on it.

My long suffering other half was there hence the photos. I managed to trick her into another Italian holiday the following year and we ended up doing a couple of laps of the Pescara circuit too! That was in an Alfa though, not a Nissan Micra.

As to whether it is officially allowed, hmmm, not sure. We had a few odd looks from joggers, walkers and cyclists, but they might be easiliy explained by the styling of the Micra CC.

When I was at the GP last year "security" would not even let anyone walk onto the banking.

Didn't see AW last night, and yes, do remember Tom Tom, reliving another Amon retirement many weeks. Did Roger Whittaker feature on it, or is my memory playing tricks? Maybe he was just a guest singer one week.

Let us know how you get on in Italy, hope you manage to get on and are not subject to another banking crisis.

Rob :wave:

#982 GD66

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 09:07

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
[B]A couple more location shots - with apologies to those who have seen them before on other threads.

It was a strange (but fantastic! :eek: :eek: ) sensation driving on the banking. I kept my eyes open for stray exhaust pipes,


Remember the noise ? Sounded like a piece of 2" water pipe bouncing down the road.... :p

#983 Macca

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:14

That's probably what it was - Frankenheimer was very thorough in getting the exact audible/visual effect he wanted.....
 

lotuslosespipe_zpsa2c2516a.jpg

Those fragile Lotus 33s - another black mark on Chapman's card. :

Yes, I also caught that glimpse of the Monaco shooting on the prog last night - I wish they'd show the whole of that original Whicker's World.

As to the question of whether any of the prop cars from the film survive - these two do:

kiddycarsnow.jpg

The first one is seen at the Crystal Palace sprint in 1999, not long before it was reunited with James Garner at Monza for the photoshoot with Jacques Villeneuve which appeared in various magazines. It has raced, with normal Lotus 20 bodywork, in the Formula Junior race at the Goodwood Revival, still with Garner's autograph on the dash.

The other car is a Lotus 22 which was rescued from a scrapyard in Norfolk where many of Russell's ex-film cars apparently ended up, and still has the faux Lotus 33 nosecone from the film.

When people criticise 'GP' for the easily-spotted fakes, it should be remembered that as well as the footage of the real 1966 season woven into the shots (and the Lotus 16 seen at the Stoddard mansion), there were quite a few genuine 1.5-litre F1s used for shooting, not much different to the 'real' cars still being used by Team Lotus, BRM, Reg Parnell Racing, etc. that season.

MGM had bought a BRM P261, three Lotus 33s, a couple of Brabhams and a Cooper; one of the Brabhams, in Ferrari disguise, was driven by Jo Bonnier in the British GP, and Chris Amon tried to qualify the other one for the Italian GP.

Paul M


Edited by Macca, 08 September 2013 - 14:36.


#984 Ivan

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 15:09

Paul,
You keep making this thread greater!!! :up:

#985 lotuspoweredbyford

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 18:58

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob


But Paul - do you ever get tired? Of research I mean....

Rob :wave:


That is tremendous.

#986 flat-16

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 12:36

Did anyone catch the Whicker programme on BBC2 this week? T'was a reminder that Aunti Beeb made good programmes once upon a time...

Anyway, it had a very short sequence from the Monaco filming of GP, complete with Garner getting somewhat irate (to put it mildly).

I'd love to know if the Whicker programme is available on DVD or the like. In fact, I'd probably buy the box set.

Justin

#987 MCS

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 19:22

Originally posted by flat-16
I'd love to know if the Whicker programme is available on DVD or the like. In fact, I'd probably buy the box set.

Justin


Probably highly unlikely. The BBC have lost so much of their 60s output it is barely credible - a bit like everything they transmit these days in fact...

#988 Macca

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 09:10

Maurice Jarre who composed the music for 'GP' amongst many other films has died at the age of 84 - RIP. :cry:

Obituary here

Paul M

#989 SEdward

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:21

You beat me to it Macca. I have always thought that Maurice Jarre composed wonderful melodies, but the "experts" probably would not agree.

He gave me hours of musical pleasure (Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, and more).
May he rest in peace.

Edward

As an afterthought, which stars of Grand Prix are still with us?

#990 Macca

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:32

Stars? The cars were the stars...........  ;)

Star actors: James Garner, Eva Marie Sainte, Brian Bedford, Antonio Sabato Snr., Françoise Hardy, Jessica Walter, Genevieve Page

Star drivers: only Amon and Bondurant from this photo :(

gpphotoeg4_zps8fbd422d.jpg

but also Sir Jack Brabham who was seen and mentioned and did some driving for filming, and Jim Russell who was actually driving the 'Ferrari' that crashed at Spa but wasn't credited with a part.

Whatever people think of the music to 'GP', Maurice Jarre won 3 Oscars for other film scores - as you say, great composer.


Paul M


Edited by Macca, 08 September 2013 - 14:39.


#991 Breadmaster

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 17:14

....and Graham Hill....(ahem)

#992 SEdward

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 19:02

... who are still with us. Graham, unfortunately, isn't.

#993 Breadmaster

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 21:05

oh yes, fair point.
I read that post earlier in the day and missed the continuation....

:up:

#994 911

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 14:21

Originally posted by Macca
Maurice Jarre who composed the music for 'GP' amongst many other films has died at the age of 84 - RIP. :cry:

Obituary here

Paul M


Paul -

Thanks for posting this. I just heard about it this morning. RIP, MP.

#995 Macca

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 16:14

I am guessing that the group photo I posted was taken at Clermont-Ferrand, as all the 'real' drivers in the shot were seen there in the pits or restaurant, and a #14 BRM is seen in the race. Another driver who is seen in a filmed shot and who is still with us is Dan Gurney, who was in the drivers' meeting at Spa.

Now here is a crop of a photo taken in the Brands Hatch paddock in 1966 - the car appears to have low-level exhausts attached by brackets and also bunches of exhausts above the suspension. I'm guessing that it's the Brabham-BRM BT11 that Jo Bonnier drove in practise, disguised as a Ferrari.

Posted Image

Paul M

#996 Macca

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:53

Posted Image
NB: "I'm a-gonna win dis race and da last one and da championship!"

PA: "Sorry Nino, Ernie Beckenham has changed it so race wins are the decider - you might as well spend the rest of the season in bed with Lisa 'cos it's between me, Scott and Sarti now."

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 05 January 2010 - 17:47.


#997 Macca

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 19:59

I don't like to make 3 posts in a row, but it's gone a bit quiet...........

Here is another then-and-now location...........the ristorante where Lisa sits at night in Monza and is picked up by the American boy is still there, in the Piazza Duomo:

then:
Posted Image

now, without the GP razzmatazz:
Posted Image

Previously there was a discussion about a scene from the film of the Monaco GP where a road was used to film Stoddard passing Sarti which was not actually part of the track. There is a shop name visible in that shot, but unfortunately (unlike the Ristorante Corona Ferrea) it's not there now!


Paul M

Edited by Macca, 29 January 2010 - 19:41.


#998 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 21:22

Originally posted by Macca
I don't like to make 3 posts in a row, but it's gone a bit quiet...........

Here is another then-and-now location...........the ristorante where Lisa sits at night in Monza and is picked up by the American boy is still there, in the Piazza Duomo:

then:
Posted Image

now, without the GP razzmatazz:
Posted Image

Paul M

Alas, Paul, your post is three years too late - I'd have loved to have taken a photo of the ristorante when I was in the Piazza Duomo back in 2006.

What is interesting (perhaps) is that to a tourist in the Piazza the Duomo appears to be quite impressive. However your revealing photo from above shows its impressive facade to be just that!

Like Jordan (Katie Price, not Eddie) its frontage appears to be enhanced relative to the rest of the building, perhaps for the same reason even, to catch one's eye. This is in contrast to the magnificent Duomo in nearby Milan, which is definitely three dimensional, and veers towards the "over the top" with over 2,000 sculptures dotted around it. A must see though, if ever in the Milan/Monza area.

Here is what we see in Monza from the Piazza:
Posted Image
Rob :wave:

#999 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 21:26

It's only a model!

Shhhh!

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#1000 Pullman99

Pullman99
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Posted 04 May 2009 - 07:06

Just returned from a few days in Milan where we went to Monza (although my wife Chris DID insist on sightseeing and shopping in Milan too for some reason). The weather on Monday and Tuesday last week was a bit like the Italian GP last year, but in between heavy showers we did manage to stroll along the pit lane and parts of the track. Sadly, unlike Kingsleyrob, we couldn't find an obvious way onto the banking - the officials present said that it was closed - and certainly most of the exits were firmly gated and locked. So, I guess we'll just have to try harder next time. What a place though!

On the way, we parked near the Railway Station and walked into the town to search out the Piazza Duomo. The restaurant in the "still" was closed and boarded up (although there was a very good looking one in the larger building to the left (closed on Mondays). I was pleased to have found it though.

Slightly OT; at the circuit, behind the pits/paddock complex, there was an ex-Milan (I think) tram and next to it a steam locomotive and two carriages. The tram looked like it may be used regularly as an info point but the loco and carriages looked somewhat derelict. Anyone got any further information?

On the Tuesday, again on a VERY wet day, we went to Turin basically to visit the Museo Nazionale dell'Automobile Carlo Biscaerreti di Ruffia. I had not realised it before I left for Italy, although I had noted a different address on one of the websites, but the original building on the Corso Unita d'Italia is being rebuilt. It looked like it had been bombed as we approached but still with the "tourist" brown direction signs pointing to it. I asked in a nearby cafe where it had gone and was redirected to the Turin Exhibiytion Centre on Corso Massimo d'Azeglio. Here there are key vehicles from the collection on show in themed exhibitions - currently on the evolution of the automobile - and will remain so until the original complex is reopened (I think in 2010). Amongst many vehicle son show were a very original Mercedes-Benz W196, and Alfa-Romeo 159 and the prototype Maserati 250F (Chassis no. 2500) which was the only one that I could check gthe number of. One of my all time favourites is the Peking to Paris Itala of 1907 but the Bordino steam carriage that I had hoped to view was still in store. The iconic FIAT turbine car of 1954 went some way to make up for it. When reopened, judgi ng by the plans models and video presentation on view, the new museum will be much expanded and will be one of the greatest - possibly the VERY BEST - transport museums in the world

When I have fully mastered the system for posting pics - I'll send them too! :)