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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#1151 jonnylayze

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 08:21

Didn't Frankenheimer get in some kind of trouble with the Monte Carlo entrepreneurs while filming there?
On the special edition dvd there's an interview with Frankenheimer and a bit of film in which Frankenheimer clearly isn't making himself very popular with the local shopkeepers.

There was also a Mr Simon Arron on this dvd.
I only noticed that the last time I watched it.


I think the filming was unpopular with locals in Monaco - there is a piece of documentary footage with James Garner losing his temper with one of the locals while filming the scene where he takes a dip into the harbour. The general gist seems to be that unless this local gets out of Mr Garner's way and allows the filming to progress to a stage where he can stop swimming about in the harbour and get into the warm then Mr Garner might cause some harm to come to the local.

I recall reading somewhere - an article in Motor Sport perhaps - that this sort of thing was not isolated. As others have said, from early in the season, the film crew were not generally popular with the racing fraternity either due to the disruption which the filming caused.

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#1152 jonnylayze

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 08:22

Didn't Frankenheimer get in some kind of trouble with the Monte Carlo entrepreneurs while filming there?
On the special edition dvd there's an interview with Frankenheimer and a bit of film in which Frankenheimer clearly isn't making himself very popular with the local shopkeepers.

There was also a Mr Simon Arron on this dvd.
I only noticed that the last time I watched it.


I think the filming was unpopular with locals in Monaco - there is a piece of documentary footage with James Garner losing his temper with one of the locals while filming the scene where he takes a dip into the harbour. The general gist seems to be that unless this local gets out of Mr Garner's way and allows the filming to progress to a stage where he can stop swimming about in the harbour and get into the warm then Mr Garner might cause some harm to come to the local.

I recall reading somewhere - an article in Motor Sport perhaps - that this sort of thing was not isolated. As others have said, from early in the season, the film crew were not generally popular with the racing fraternity either due to the disruption which the filming caused.

#1153 eldougo

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 11:29

Found this in 1966 SCW ....Posted Image

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#1154 B Squared

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:08

From Popular Science archive, August, 1966:

http://www.popsci.co...uery=Grand Prix

#1155 jj2728

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 14:09

Found this in 1966 SCW ....Posted Image

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"Ah-soo in the Yamura Special".......priceless.

#1156 Macca

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 20:48

Some quotes from BRM engineer Tony Rudd's autobiography "It Was Fun!":

'Frankenheimer was making his film 'Grand Prix' in Monaco at the same time, which was a bit of a nuisance, but it probably cut both ways.'

'The climax came when one of the film company executives rang up at 11a.m. race day to enquire when he could collect the cars. 'What cars?' I asked. Apparently one of the drivers (not one of ours) had sold him our Tasmans. The arrangement was that they could take delivery of them after the race, as from then on we would be running H16s. I was not particularly helpful, and we had quite an acrimonious 15 minutes before he realised that he had been had.'


So it was Jo Bonnier.......was it more of his ace wheeler-dealing, when he was already driving and appearing in the film, or a genuinely good spoof?

At Spa:

'The mechanics shared my irritation with the film crew but they had their own methods of showing it - they wore white overalls on the first days practise, blue overalls the second day and standard 'dayglo' orange race day. The continuity girl, I understand, went raving mad. People who have seen the film 'Grand Prix' will know why BRM was an essential part of the story.'

From various articles and interviews with James Garner, Monaco was the most difficult for filming as the locals tried to get even more money out of MGM, as seen in the Whicker excerpt on the DVD, despite having already been paid off by Prince Rainier. The later GPs were relatively less trouble for everyone, except the purists who didn't like seeing cars in the wrong colours or drivers in the wrong helmets. Parnell must have got a fair bit of money to keep repainting his Lotus from blue to white to red and again to white; Cooper were hired for Rindt to be in the background of some Zandvoort shots of Stoddard and for the inside of their workshops to be Yamura's base; and when Ferrari wanted to test at Monza before the Italian GP he found that MGM had booked it for 5 weeks, so gave them some favours to get the use of it. By and large I don't think the circus did too badly out of it all.

I hadn't seen that SCW snippet before.........but that "flat-12 Lotus" is an Eagle!

Paul M

#1157 Geoff E

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 22:37

Hardy and Harry


One of them had her 67th birthday yesterday.


#1158 Team Result

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 01:51

One of them had her 67th birthday yesterday.


While the other is 65 and still thrilling fans, most recently in NZ and the UK

http://www.blondie.n...cert-in-london/

#1159 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:32

Great article

“There is no truth in the rumor all future GP cars will have to carry movie cameras to record direct hits, overtaking manoeuvres, etc.”

Bernie got it from there?

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#1160 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 01:45

Just an update on how Scott Stoddard is doing since he retired from racing:

http://www.cbc.ca/ar...c-extended.html

Bob Mackenzie

Edited by R.W. Mackenzie, 28 January 2011 - 01:50.


#1161 ghaschke

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 14:41

This is to let everybody in this forum know that I just bought the Lotus FJ 20/22 #881 that was used as a prop in BRM livery by James Garner at Monza. The car is now being readied for racing and will return to Monza where I will be driving it in the first race of the FIA Lurani Trophy on March 25/26th.
This is what the car looked like while being raced by Gavin Pickering:

Link to pic
Would love to see any posts specific to this car, if anyone has any additional information.

Thanks,

Guido

#1162 Macca

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 14:59

I hope photos don't disappear from this thread from not being viewed........

Congratulations on your purchase, sir - there are some pictures of your car in earlier pages, I believe. It can also be seen in this still from the filming at Monza:
http://www.koolkatja...mages/gp003.JPG

Paul M

#1163 rallen

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:31

Not sure if anyone here remembers a magazine called King? It was one of the first high class men's magazines, a bit like a UK version of Playboy.

Jackie Stewart used to write a monthly column for it which was very interesting, but one of the issues had a big feature on the making of the film Grand Prix with great interviews and interesting photos from filming. I actually have a copy of the issue - they are quite rare now which I can dig out if anyone wants more info, though unfortunatly I do not have a scanner at the moment.

#1164 Macca

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 10:31

Yes, I have to confess I remember that magazine...........they sponsored Barry Sheene IIRC! I'd be interested in whether there are any unrevealed facts in the article.

Meanwhile:
 

1966-Enzo_AdolfoCelli_zps5854a6d6.jpg

Manetta: "What do you think?"
Ferrari: "You should have fired Sarti..........and get yourself some sunglasses."

Paul M


Edited by Macca, 08 September 2013 - 13:06.


#1165 mfd

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 13:28

Yes, I have to confess I remember that magazine...........they sponsored Barry Sheene IIRC!
Paul M

Sorry Macca, the "King" you will have seen on Sheene bikes was a helmet company


#1166 rallen

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 15:31

Yep despite high circulation and popularity - King stopped publishing at the end of 1967 and merged into Mayfair magazine.

I will have to dig out my copy but theres lots of behind the scene photos and interviews, it was quite an indepth article and pretty much a must have of any fans of this film.

#1167 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 00:27

Scott continues to prosper in his post Formula One career:

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ominations.html

Bob Mackenzie

#1168 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:11

UK fans of the delightful Françoise Hardy may be interested in this programme, to be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 10.30 am on Saturday (21st May).

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b0118bgw



#1169 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:24

UK fans of the delightful Françoise Hardy may be interested in this programme, to be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 10.30 am on Saturday (21st May).

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b0118bgw

Tim, you have inspired me to feature the fragrant Françoise in my 60s show tonight. When was the last time you heard her on the radio?

I think I'll do my feature around 7.10pm, replacing my usual film/tv/radio theme feature. I might just have a spot of background music you might recognise.

Tune into Radio Warrington here http://www.radiowarrington.co.uk/

Drop me a note for a request or a mention here http://www.radiowarr...n.co.uk/contact

It's 6.00pm to 8.00pm, every Wednesday!

Rob :wave:



#1170 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:35

:up: :up:

Will you still love me tomorrow?

(no, not you Rob :lol: - just a suggestion for a great Françoise song. I'll be listening.)

#1171 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:38

:up: :up:

Will you still love me tomorrow?

(no, not you Rob :lol: - just a suggestion for a great Françoise song. I'll be listening.)

I love everyone that tunes in! You'll double my listener base.

I've just bought my two songs Tim. One song is obvious, the other less so, a marvellous cover version of a song I'd previously found depressing.

Rob :wave:

#1172 alansart

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:47

I love everyone that tunes in! You'll double my listener base.

I've just bought my two songs Tim. One song is obvious, the other less so, a marvellous cover version of a song I'd previously found depressing.

Rob :wave:


All over the World?


#1173 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:55

... the other less so, a marvellous cover version of a song I'd previously found depressing.

Rob :wave:

Leonard Cohen, perchance? If so, I shan't complain. :clap:

#1174 Macca

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:07

"Nino" by Jackson Browne?

"American Boy"?

:lol:

Paul M

#1175 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 15:27

All over the World?

Yes Alan, I have listeners all over the world...one of the benefits of internet "radio".

Some good guesses boys, but you'll have to listen in to see if you're correct :)

Rob :wave:

#1176 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 00:33

In the Monaco Grand Prix scenes of the movie during one of the voice-overs Scott Stoddard is talking about "driving through ordinary streets flat out". At that point the screen is split into three sections. In the left and right segments you see a green car spinning coming out of Casino Square. It happens so quickly that you can very easily miss it.

I always wondered who it was and whether it was in practice or during the race. If you slow it down and watch frame by frame you still can't tell who it is. The car spinning seems to be behind McLaren and in front of another green car and Bandini but that's all you can tell. As there seems to be a string of cars following the spinning car it is likely during one of the opening laps of the race.

The other day I came across a picture that seems to answer my question:

http://www.brianwats.../pages/156.html

It shows Ritchie Ginther spinning in front of Brabham and Bandini.

Still don't know when exactly this occurred. My guess is on the second lap. If you watch the first lap sequences, particularly as the field streams through the chicane, McLaren is ahead of two works Coopers followed by Brabham and Bandini. But during the spin I've described above, there is no sign of the second Cooper.

Can anyone shed light on this incident?

(By the way, the Brian Watson Photo site has many outstanding photographs of this and other races that are new to me. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned already in this forum but if you haven't already seen it it's well worth a look.)

Bob Mackenzie

#1177 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 01:47

I think this page pretty much answers my question (another excellent site I didn't know about):

http://www.statsf1.c...r-par-tour.aspx

It would appear that Rindt got past McLaren somewhere between the chicane and the end of the first lap. It also confirms that Ginther's spin was on the second lap.

I took another look at the spin sequence and just before McLaren goes by you can see Anderson and Rindt gp by. Looks like Rindt is starting to pass Anderson which he did before the end of the lap. I didn't realize Rindt was running so well. He was up to second before he began to slide back and ultimately retire.

While I was researching this I also came across this YouTube video of the race:



Don't know if it's been mentioned before. No sound and not great quality but some interesting footage. I'm not sure it's shown in the correct sequence as there seems to be a wet track at times after the start. I thought the races was run in bright sunshine.

Bob Mackenzie

#1178 Macca

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 09:24

I think I posted a still of Ginther's spin a couple of pages ago - I know it was mentioned in a magazine report which I have at home.

I don't remember a mention of rain in the race reports, so it may have been in practise - also there appears to be a shot in that video of Clark on Stewart's tail at Gasworks, which I don't think happened in the race, as he dropped to last at the first corner due to being stuck in first gear and then got going and got up to about third (behind Bandini) before his suspension broke.

Interesting point about Rindt; in Roy Salvadori's autobiography he mentions the tyre troubles they had at Cooper that year when the track got oily, which made the cars almost undriveable - maybe that happened at Monaco too.


I missed Rob's radio show due to being late home - so what did you play, Rob?

Paul M

#1179 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 09:45

He played an excellent selection - Zombies, Jose Feliciano, Move, Hollies and Peter Sarstedt, to name but a few, and the Françoise Hardy slot featured All Over The World and Suzanne, with the Grand Prix theme as background music.

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#1180 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 09:52

I don't remember a mention of rain in the race reports, so it may have been in practise ...
Paul M

According to DSJ in Motor Sport there was 'a sprinkle of rain' at the start of Thursday practice, but conditions were warm and dry for the rest of the meeting.

#1181 Odseybod

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:37

The other day I came across a picture that seems to answer my question:

http://www.brianwats.../pages/156.html


(By the way, the Brian Watson Photo site has many outstanding photographs of this and other races that are new to me. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned already in this forum but if you haven't already seen it it's well worth a look.)

Bob Mackenzie


Thanks for the link to the Brian Watson site, Bob - new to me and well worth exploring. That looks like Henry Manney in the hat in this one.

#1182 Rob29

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 18:00

According to DSJ in Motor Sport there was 'a sprinkle of rain' at the start of Thursday practice, but conditions were warm and dry for the rest of the meeting.

Yep I was there from friday night till monday morning and don't remember any rain-have video from my own 8mm film as well THE movie :wave:

#1183 Macca

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 13:23

Some original photos taken by Cahier are on fleabay here at somewhat (!) inflated prices..........

Paul M



#1184 MCS

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 20:52

(By the way, the Brian Watson Photo site has many outstanding photographs of this and other races that are new to me. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned already in this forum but if you haven't already seen it it's well worth a look.)

Bob Mackenzie


Crikey, the site has come on somewhat since I last looked - some wonderful images! :clap:


#1185 Ian G

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 11:20

It has just been released on Blu-Ray,i haven't seen it yet but apparently the sound track is sensational for car buffs.

http://bluray.highde.../grandprix.html

#1186 elansprint72

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 12:59

Crikey, the site has come on somewhat since I last looked - some wonderful images! :clap:


Absolutely superb! I love the shot of Black Jack at Oulton, a pile of freshly-cut logs only inches from the tarmac and nothing but a steep grassy down-hill slope between the tarmac and the lake! Those WERE the days, my friends. :clap:

#1187 Macca

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 16:19

I shall definitely log on to listen, Rob.

Now, while I was looking for something completely different the other week, I found this photo among an album of a chap's holiday snaps from 1966, coincidentally:

Posted Image

which rang a bell; so a screen-grab from the DVD produced this:

Posted Image

All that is missing is the name of the outcrop in the view............


Paul M


The outcrop, I have discovered, is the 'Roche Sanadoire'

http://www.photoguid...n-sanadoire.jpg

Paul M




#1188 Macca

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:43

It has just been released on Blu-Ray,i haven't seen it yet but apparently the sound track is sensational for car buffs.

http://bluray.highde.../grandprix.html


On this page is lots of info - including interviews and some posters and publicity material I hadn't seen before (and a picture of Hardy and Garner looking for a chassis plate on a Lotus 33!):

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=6537

Paul M



#1189 BritishV8

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 21:53

A bit off topic, chaps, but I have reason to believe that one of the first clutch of BRP cars was used (or at least the body) was used to simulate some other make in this film.

According to Ken Gregory, it was sawn in half at the hub line and mounted on a trailer - I have no idea which one, though...

Is there a pic. of it?


Well... I guess I'm looking for pretty much the same information as RobertE:
a) how was the BRP utilized?
b) does anyone have a photo or screen shot that clearly i.d.'s the BRP?
c) even better, can anyone help me find a production still of the BRP?
bonus) does anyone know for certain what happened to the car's remains after the film?
(I'm working on a huge feature article about the Grand Prix BRPs, and this information would be nice for a sidebar.)



Here's what I think I know: after the 1964 Grand Prix season, Trevor Taylor's car (BRP #64/3) was acquired by the Stirling Moss Racing Team and was transported to South Africa where Richie Ginther drove it in the 1966 South African Grand Prix. On the seventh lap of that race, Ginther spun the BRP-BRM and was struck by Jo Bonnier (who was driving a Rob Walker Racing Lotus-Climax.) The BRP was badly enough damaged that its racing days were over, but it had salvageable parts so it was transported back to England where some or at least most of it was sold to Jim Russell (of racing school fame.) Jim Russell had a contract to supply racecars for the making of Grand Prix. BRP 64/3 has not yet reappeared after Grand Prix.



Also,

(1) according to some reports (which I haven't yet verified), BRP 64/3 was re-powered with a non-crossflow Ford 4cyl. engine and a Hewland transaxle for its appearance in the film.

(2) according to other reports, the BRP 64/3 was cut in half, and the back half was used behind a tow vehicle for faked race footage. I spoke to Ken Gregory earlier today, and his understanding is that this later report has credibility because it matches what a former BRP mechanic who later worked on the film told him. (I can't remember which BRP man... I'm thinking Ken might have said Bruce McIntosh, who I know later worked for McLaren.)

In case it's not obvious, (1) and (2) are NOT mutually exclusive.



Here's what I've observed from the film:

Remember all those scenes where Pete Aron (James Garner) is having trouble with his gearchange? Remember how the camera aims down from over his right shoulder to photograph Aron's left hand on the shifter? I think all those frames - the movie comes back to this over and over - show us Trevor Taylor's BRP! (Can someone please snap a screenshot for me? I don't know how.) If you look carefully, you'll note that the shifter lever comes up through a hole in the left pontoon... and that the hole has been very crudely enlarged to the inboard side. It's pretty obvious that the fiberglass cowl and the Perspex windscreen are cheesy fakes. Aron's car, the #11 BRM, logically SHOULD be similar to teammate Scott Stoddart's #12 BRM - but their dashboards, instruments, and steering wheels are all distinctly different.

For the sake of comparison, I'll post a photo to show what sister car (Innes Ireland's BRP 64/2) looks like, more or less:
Posted Image
(I can't testify yet as to how accurately the car has been restored/replicated. Stay tuned.)


I suspect BRP 64/3 may have been used for other scenes/purposes... I'm still studying. (Can you help me?) I would, however, note that it isn't hard to mistake a BRP Mk2 for a Lotus 25. Previously someone noticed that the Yamura "fitting" scene appears to feature a Lotus 25. If it didn't look so new, I'd wonder if it might by BRP 64/3. In race scenes, we see at least three radically different front suspensions on Aron's Yamura fake-Honda. Shock absorbers don't usually go from inboard to outboard and back during a race, but I think that's what I saw at Monza.

Somehow, the HUGE continuity errors in this film don't detract from how much I enjoy the story!





Getting back to the question of the real Italian GP; the entry list had Spence and Baghetti in Lotus-BRMs #42 and 44, Trevor Taylor was entered as #46 in the Shannon and Frank Gardner as #50 in the Willment-Climax (both DNA). This was a 1964 BRP bought by Willment and fitted with one of Paul Emery's 3-litre Climax FPE engines - it was tested by John Blunsdon for 'Motor Racing' magazine but wasn't race-ready for Monza, and in fact only ever raced in the Oulton Park Gold Cup driven by Trevor Taylor (I doubt whether Gardner would have fitted into it, as it was built for the slim Innes Ireland and Blunsdon could barely drive it).

Paul M


At the Oulton Park Gold Cup in 1966, BRP 64/2 was definitely driven by John Campbell-Jones. His engine leaked oil on track, and his car was black-flagged.

Edited by BritishV8, 26 August 2011 - 21:58.


#1190 ChrisJson

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:59

Here´s a screenshot of Pete changing gears.

I don´t think that´s a BRP.

Posted Image

Edited by ChrisJson, 27 August 2011 - 11:00.


#1191 BritishV8

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 15:19

Thanks! Here's that same photo with the brightness turned up:

Posted Image

It doesn't look like a BRP to me either. I wonder what chassis it is.

#1192 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 00:43

Could they have cut the tub a bit to expose the shift to make it clearer for the movie?

I did notice that Stoddard keeps changing steering wheels almost as often as he changes gears.

You can find this bit of the movie on youtube at

Edited by Catalina Park, 28 August 2011 - 00:47.


#1193 Macca

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 19:47

There are a lot of photos throughout the 30 pages of this thread (sadly some are no longer visible) including ones showing the various disguised cars, such as 2 Lotus 33s faked up as a Ferrari and a Yamura but with the real Climax exhausts still visible. At Monza for shooting there can also be seen an unmodified green Lotus 33.

MGM also had a real BRM P261, Ginther's 1964 car with side exhausts, which was faked-up at times both as a centre exhaust P261 and as a P83; if you look on p12 of the thread, there is a photo I took at Goodwood a couple of years ago of a P261 cockpit which looks very similar to the screen grab, with the large gate opening and rivets visible in the side of the tub.

Paul M

#1194 ChrisJson

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 22:36

Yes Paul I think you´re right about the P261.

Especially the brace for the steering column
with the lightening holes gives it away.

OT Usually the tachometers were mounted
with peak RPM staight up. Wasn´t this the custom
in the ´60s or is this a small mistake?

Christer

#1195 Catalina Park

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 09:02

Looking at BRM V3 and it has to be a P261.

#1196 Pullman99

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 09:57

Just been watching te the "Red Button" coverage of Monza 1st Practice on the BBC. Very enthusiastic commentary, by Maurice Hamilton particularly, on Monza's heritage and especially the banking.

Even mentioned "Grand Prix" and the pounding that the cameras were taking round there! Excellent stuff.

Edited by Pullman99, 09 September 2011 - 09:57.


#1197 mfd

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:11

Just been watching the "Red Button" coverage of Monza 1st Practice...

The Son of the chap who won an Oscar for Grand Prix, (the best sound effects) was in touch with the BBC commentary team too.

#1198 Macca

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 08:38

This link from another thread deserves to be here, as it gives a good 'then & now' with Phil Hill's camera-car footage at Spa:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Regarding BRPs; earlier in this thread (post #1084) an advert for racing-cars was posted which had 2 BRPs on it, the '64 cars, and the '64 BRM and 2 ex-Rob Walker Brabhams. These last 3 weren't seen in filming at Monaco but appeared at Clermont-Ferrand (and in the recreation of a bit of "Monaco" actually shot in Royat at the same time - see earlier pages).

I'm fairly sure that the shots in the Yamura workshop with Aron having his seat-fitting show a Lotus 33-Climax, and there is another one with 'Ferrari' exhausts in the fashion photoshoot in the Ferrari garage at Royat - this one was also seen in the paddock at Brands. All the shots using a truncated car attached to the back of the GT40 for close-ups featured Lotus 20s, as did the 'spinner' mounted on a turntable.

However the Aron seat-fitting sequence (shot in Cooper's works) showed another white monocoque up on stands, so that might possibly have been a BRP.

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 19 September 2011 - 11:52.


#1199 Macca

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 12:10

The fillum got a mention at Goodwood yesterday; Lord (Paul) Drayson was second in the Glover Tophy in a Lotus-24-BRM and commented on how great the noise was while driving - said that was why they used it in 'Grand Prix' as the stock engine noise.

I wonder if he knew that from talking to someone involved, or whether he just watches the DVD a lot....

Paul M

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#1200 mfd

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 12:49

I wonder if he knew that from talking to someone involved, or whether he just watches the DVD a lot....
Paul M

Is he right though?