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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#1201 Macca

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 20:34

Earlier it was stated that the house/flat near Monza where Sarti takes Louise that is filled with motor-racing memorabilia actually belonged to Mimmo Dei of Scuderia Cento-Sud who greets them when they arrive.

Here are a couple of stills from the house to refresh your memory:

Posted Image

Posted Image

I can't do screen captures, so I'm using these to get the scene in the neighborhood.

On the wall next to the stairs are several racetrack outlines, with their respective names, but they're too small to read. I've identified some of them, and am hoping for help to fill in any gaps and check my work.

Left Side, working downwards:
Sebring (USA)
Le Mans (France)
Spa-Francorchamps (Belgium)
Silverstone (Britain)

Middle, working downwards:
Monza (Italy)
Monte Carlo (Monaco)

Right Side, working downwards
Bremgarten? (Switzerland)
Reims (France)
Nurburgring(Germany)

Bonus points for the top 2 on the left side, visible only when Louise is walking down the stairs right after the first picture.
Pedralbez?
Zandvoort?
Rouen?

Can a picture of this wall in the present day be found? I don't believe Mimmo Dei is alive anymore, but is his clubhouse/bar still standing, where these pictures were taken?


Above Sebring on the left is Siracusa, and above Reims on the right is Solitude, not Bremgarten. The top two on the left and in the middle are Buenos Aires and Pau, and there is another to the right that we cannot see enough of to identify.

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 26 September 2011 - 10:01.


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#1202 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 20:41

That should be Pedralbes, Paul.

#1203 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:04

Did you check out this?

http://www.spaarnest...mid,60/lang,en/

Go to: 'Search' and then 'Extended search'

Type Caption: Circuit
Type Photographer: Harry Pot

You should see some pics of the Zandvoort shootings.
On one of the pics you can even see a young HHH (fellow TNFer) watch James Garner

#1204 B Squared

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 12:29

James Garner releases his autobiography. Text of the link below:

http://tv.msn.com/tv...p;ocid=ansent11

James Garner opens up in amiable 'Garner Files'

Oct. 31, 2011, 6:16 AM EST

"The Garner Files: A Memoir" (Simon & Schuster), by James Garner and Jon Winokur: Better not say anything nasty to his face about "The Garner Files" or actor James Garner might just haul off and deck you.

Garner has decked a lot of people over the years, from an abusive stepmother to an obnoxious fan. As the star of TV's "The Rockford Files" explains in his amiable memoir, they deserved it. Once you've heard the story — and there are plenty to hear — it's hard not to agree with him.

"Something funny happens as you get older," writes Garner, now 83. "You don't hold back so much."

That might explain the many personal revelations in "The Garner Files." He smoked pot for most of his adult life and even did a little cocaine with John Belushi. He's a bleeding-heart Democrat who considers Adlai Stevenson the most intelligent man to have run for president, with Barack Obama a close second.

Garner calls his friend Steve McQueen an insecure poseur and not much of an actor. He labels Charles Bronson, another co-star from the 1963 movie "The Great Escape," bitter and belligerent. Many other people in Garner's life receive nothing but praise.

Laid-back charm and a sense of humor fuel such memories, two qualities shared by the characters Garner often played in a career of 50-plus years. In real life, pessimism and anger stemming from a hardscrabble childhood in Depression-era Oklahoma temper the charm but not the honesty and the humor.

Odd jobs and a combat stint in Korea marked his early adult years. Good looks, good luck and a friend in Los Angeles landed him in the acting business. The wry Western series "Maverick" made Garner a star in 1957 and, after a long run on the big screen, he won over a new TV audience in the 1970s as private eye Jim Rockford.

Garner would just as soon talk about golf or racing as acting. He rates only two of his movies as excellent ("The Americanization of Emily" and "The Notebook"). Some he considers pretty good ("Grand Prix" and "Murphy's Romance"), but most strike him as average — and a few as downright awful. He's proud, and rightly so, of made-for-TV movies like "Promise" and "My Name Is Bill W."

Full of funny stories and observations, "The Garner Files" offers the kind of clubhouse banter you might expect from a hardworking, successful guy who doesn't take himself too seriously — and doesn't want you to, either.



#1205 Keir

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 14:49

Garner and Steve McQueen were not what one would call friends. While Steve was making "The Sand Peebles", he heard that Garner landed the role in "Grand Prix", Steve was beside himself with rage and delayed production. When both actors lived in LA, Steve would often take a piss from his property down into Garner's. Both of these guys remain in the list of my favorite actors, but often, we make of our favorites what we find likable about them. Sure, it would be great to have been one of Steve's buddies and get to ride bikes in the desert and I'm sure Garner was a blast to hang out with, but the bottom line is, there is a lot more to human nature than what we see on the screen.

#1206 Macca

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:25

Did you check out this?

http://www.spaarnest...mid,60/lang,en/

Go to: 'Search' and then 'Extended search'

Type Caption: Circuit
Type Photographer: Harry Pot

You should see some pics of the Zandvoort shootings.
On one of the pics you can even see a young HHH (fellow TNFer) watch James Garner


If you use Simple Search and type Harry+Pot+circuit you get 23 images, not all from the film.........but the 13th image which shows a fake BRM with camera can be enlarged to show a dapper young man in blue overalls looking on: it appears to be Ron Dennis.

The first image shows a drivers' briefing with Ligier, Siffert, Spence, Bonnier...........and Montand. They're all in their real helmets, so maybe it was the proper briefing for the actual race and YM tagged on for Frankenheimer to film it.

Returning to Mimmo Dei's staircase...........the top-right circuit that I couldn't see clearly enough to identify looks too curved to be Pedralbes.

Paul M



#1207 willga

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 14:41

Yes Paul I think you´re right about the P261.

Especially the brace for the steering column
with the lightening holes gives it away.

OT Usually the tachometers were mounted
with peak RPM staight up. Wasn´t this the custom
in the ´60s or is this a small mistake?

Christer

It couldn't be anything else: it's a 'full' monocoque (ie 360 degree), as opposed to the twin-pontoon designs of Lotus and BRP; the cutout for the driver's left arm on the gearchange, and the way the dash bolts across the top of the cockpit (at 11 o'clock on the steering wheel) are particular features of P261.

Also note the 'Speedwell' rev counter, rather than a 'Smiths'. Graham Hill had an interest in 'Speedwell Performance Conversions' and, I understand, often had some of their components bolted onto the cars he drove.

#1208 Macca

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 13:11

Posted Image

A photo I haven't seen anywhere else, poached from Garner's own website....... ;-)

Paul M

#1209 MCS

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 13:15

Paul, have you seen the pictures on the Mirrorpix website?


#1210 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 19:14

Still being t.v.-less over here I have been watching dvds as my evening entertainment. Last night I watched the second disc of the 'Grand Prix' dvd.

A few things stood out. I apologise if this has been mentioned before but I was delighted to see our very own Simon Arron in the feature about racing in the 60s - as if he is old enough to remember it!!!

But I cringed several times during the feature about the '66 Monaco Grand Prix. Particularly when the narrator stated that the cars used in the film were 'identical in every detail to the cars that ran in the real Grand Prix'. And why did they feel the need to cut in several shots from the F.3 race when showing clips of the real race? Do they think we are blind?

Finally, and I'm sure this has come up before, when Aron and Stoddard were racing to the chequered flag they had just come out of Parabolica. Shouldn't they have been on the other side of the divided straight (which wasn't divided in the film, anyway)?

Still, it was good to see it all again. I was hoping that Sarti wouldn't crash this time.

#1211 Macca

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:47

On those rare occasions when I watch it (!!!) I always hope Sarti won't crash. Frankenheimer should have let him pass Aron and Stoddard, push Barlini into a simple mistake and then stop at the pits to see how he is and walk away when Manetta rants at him; but JF was obsessed with having an even more spectacular shunt than at Monaco (according to Phil Hill).

The onboard laps coming out of Parabolica always have the car going across to the left instead of hugging the pitwall towards the North Banking..........

And some of the cars were identical to the ones racing.........the faked-up Lotus 33s, Brabham BT11s and BRM P261 that are cut seamlessly back and forth with the faked Lotus FJs!

Posted Image

Paul M

#1212 D-Type

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 23:51

Has anybody mentioned this Popular Mechanics article before?

#1213 eldougo

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 00:40

What a great article you found D-Type..... :up:

Love the swiveling cockpit.

Edited by eldougo, 15 January 2012 - 00:44.


#1214 URY914

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:59

I have a copy of that Pop Mech article. I have the entire magazine actually. It's the same one that was delivered to our door in 1967. I've kept it all these years.

#1215 D-Type

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 17:19

Popular Mechanics used to be the only good thing about going to the dentist. He had a pile of old copies in his waiting room.

#1216 B Squared

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 17:37

What a great article you found D-Type..... :up:


I have a copy of that Pop Mech article. I have the entire magazine actually. It's the same one that was delivered to our door in 1967. I've kept it all these years.


I remember reading this when it came out, a neighbor friend had a subscription. Somehow this escaped my collection at the time and I had not seen the article since. Many thanks for posting.

#1217 LittleChris

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 21:12

Love the swiveling cockpit.


Wonder if that's where Chunky got the idea for the twin chassis Lotus 88 from :D


#1218 Amphicar

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 23:43

Garner and Steve McQueen were not what one would call friends. While Steve was making "The Sand Peebles", he heard that Garner landed the role in "Grand Prix", Steve was beside himself with rage and delayed production. When both actors lived in LA, Steve would often take a piss from his property down into Garner's. Both of these guys remain in the list of my favorite actors, but often, we make of our favorites what we find likable about them.

Yes indeed. I've previously posted this quote from Neile McQueen Toffel's book "My Husband, My Friend" but it bears repetition:

“One morning Jim Garner called from L.A. with some aggravating news. As soon as I was assured that nothing had happened to our house (he was, after all, our next-door neighbor), I handed the phone to Steve. I sensed something was very wrong and when he bid Jim good-bye Steve stared straight ahead, not saying anything. I waited patiently for him to collect his thoughts. Then slowly and deliberately he said, "That fu*ker. He's just signed to do Grand Prix. He wanted to tell me himself before I read about it or heard it from somebody else. How about that? You see, baby, you just cannot trust anybody in this business."

According to Robert Relyea, who worked for McQueen's Solar Productions, McQueen didn’t talk to Garner for nearly two years.

#1219 Macca

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:52

That Pop. Mech. article had been flagged up a couple of pages ago, as are the Time and Life articles from the period.......

As to why McQueen didn't do GP, he'd taken himself out of the frame, as described here better than I can in a review of the DVD:
"If you're like me, you look at Grand Prix and immediately think "1966...auto racing...where the hell is McQueen?" Sure enough, Steve McQueen was both the studio's and the director's original choice to play Peter Aron. McQueen was (unsurprisingly) interested -- until, as Frankenheimer notes in one of the featurettes, he met co-producer Ed Lewis (Spartacus) to discuss the project. For some reason Frankenheimer wasn't able to attend the meeting, and sent Lewis in his stead. We'll never know what could have happened if he had gone himself, but we do know what actually happened: McQueen instantly hated Lewis, who instantly hated him back; he didn't participate; and he, in his stubbornness, set himself on a personal quest to make his own racing film, which eventually resulted in the Le Mans debacle."

MGM and Frankenheimer were going to make it anyway, whatever McQueen thought, and he was tied up filming in Taiwan in early 1966 and was unwell when he returned to the USA. Neile McQueen also says in her account of Steve hearing of Garner's casting:
' "Honey, come on now, be reasonable," I pleaded. "I hate to tell you this, but you're overreacting. Look. You were asked to do the picture, but you didn't want to. Jim is an actor. You cannot begrudge him for accepting a part that somebody's going to do. I mean, it could have been Paul Newman or Jim Coburn just as easily. Obviously the producers have to go for a big name. They're not dummies. They're not going to hand the picture to some unknown just because these stars are your friends! Honey, you do see what I mean, don't you?"

He did see, but he didn't like it. It was two years before Steve would speak to Jim, although even then he really never felt the same way about the man again. Steve pouted and felt he had been betrayed and that was that. I felt bad because we had shared so many good times with the Garners.'

meanwhile at Zandvoort
Posted Image
copright Harry Pot

"I wonder if McQueen is pi**ing in my yard again."

Paul M





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#1220 Barry Boor

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:28

I think that to call 'Le Mans' a debacle is a bit harsh.

#1221 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 08:52

Came across this picture at Flickr. Dont know if it has been discussed here previously. Mifume and 'his' mechanics cheering Garner.

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

#1222 Macca

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 14:23

I take the liberty of posting the above-linked picture in the hope that the track can be identified:

Posted Image

Paul M

PS. I think the 'debacle' description of 'Le Mans' refers to filming without a script, with only one half-decent actor, losing your director and then having the money-men take over to get it finished.

#1223 LittleChris

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 15:47

I take the liberty of posting the above-linked picture in the hope that the track can be identified:

Posted Image

Paul M

PS. I think the 'debacle' description of 'Le Mans' refers to filming without a script, with only one half-decent actor, losing your director and then having the money-men take over to get it finished.



Macca,

I think it's Spa with the Eau Rouge bridge in the background. Compare the hut behind and to the left of the lorry with that shown briefly at 3.54 here



Chris

#1224 Macca

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 17:10

Yes, I'm sure you're right - the positions of Mifune and the others match the shot in the film, which was closely-cropped and looking upwards, presumably to conceal the fact that it wasn't raining and there was nobody else about......

Here we have Bob Bondurant and a sort of Eagle-Welake-type thing:

Posted Image

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 18 January 2012 - 17:11.


#1225 Macca

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 19:06

Posted Image

Here is another one I hadn't seen before, probably at Monaco - but who is the driver to the right of Garner?

Paul M

#1226 Barry Boor

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 19:18

Was Jonathan Williams involved with the film?

#1227 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 22:09

Yes indeed. I've previously posted this quote from Neile McQueen Toffel's book "My Husband, My Friend" but it bears repetition:

“One morning Jim Garner called from L.A. with some aggravating news. As soon as I was assured that nothing had happened to our house (he was, after all, our next-door neighbor), I handed the phone to Steve. I sensed something was very wrong and when he bid Jim good-bye Steve stared straight ahead, not saying anything. I waited patiently for him to collect his thoughts. Then slowly and deliberately he said, "That fu*ker. He's just signed to do Grand Prix. He wanted to tell me himself before I read about it or heard it from somebody else. How about that? You see, baby, you just cannot trust anybody in this business."

According to Robert Relyea, who worked for McQueen's Solar Productions, McQueen didn’t talk to Garner for nearly two years.


Great story! I never knew they had such battles.

I don't think GP would have had the same gut pulling effect on me if Sarti hadn't have died so brutally; but that is just drama. As a kid I had this James Dean complex in that I never thought I live beyond 24. I think I must of watch too many John Wayne War ar II movies or something. You couldn't be a true hero unless you died on the field of battle or the field of competition.

#1228 Macca

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:18

Was Jonathan Williams involved with the film?


Good spot - he wasn't listed on the film credits, but he was at Monaco driving in the F3 race in a De Sanctis.

Posted Image

Paul M

#1229 Barry Boor

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:07

I'm not adamant that 'tis him but that was the name that came to my mind as soon as I saw the picture.

#1230 David M. Kane

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 17:03

I can't find anywhere the amount of money the movie has made over the years now that the DVD is selling so well I imagine it is quite significant. I tries box office revenues all sorts of topics.

I did send an email to Nigel Roebuck that he needs to get Ron Howard on his podcast. I know Jon Pollok has done the same. I think RUSH will be a huge success.

Edited by David M. Kane, 06 February 2012 - 17:04.


#1231 Giraffe

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 21:17

I'm not adamant that 'tis him but that was the name that came to my mind as soon as I saw the picture.


Great minds etc. Yes, me too Barry, but I couldn't find any reference to him anywhere. Macca may have provided the answer...............


I can't find anywhere the amount of money the movie has made over the years now that the DVD is selling so well I imagine it is quite significant. I tries box office revenues all sorts of topics.

I did send an email to Nigel Roebuck that he needs to get Ron Howard on his podcast. I know Jon Pollok has done the same. I think RUSH will be a huge success.


I really hope "Rush" will be a huge success too, as it will take some of the pressure off "Grand Prix" &" Le Mans". :up:

#1232 Macca

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:05

Here is a photo of "the opposition".........probably at Monaco in 1965, since he appears to be looking at a Brabham with a 32-valve Climax engine:

Posted Image

edit: it doesn't seem to have small thumbnails available.

This is a test with my first use of imgur.........since I have 800-plus photos on Imageshack and the older ones are used in this thread, if the thread is going to exist in a vaguely interesting form in the future I'll have to go through it editing my posts and reloading all my photos to another host. :mad:

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 09 February 2012 - 09:08.


#1233 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:06

Only 31 pages to go through, Macca. Should be a doddle.

Not sure if that McQueen photo is 1965 - I was there but I never saw him.  ;)

#1234 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:30

#7 at Monaco 1965 was McLaren's Cooper.

#1235 Alan Cox

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:42

Here is a photo of "the opposition".........probably at Monaco in 1965, since he appears to be looking at a Brabham with a 32-valve Climax engine:

Looks like the car is a Brabham carrying no 7 (or, at a stretch no 3). In '65 No 7 was McLaren's Cooper and 3 was Hill's BRM, neither of which it is.

Edit: As Tim has said above

Edited by Alan Cox, 09 February 2012 - 09:43.


#1236 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:00

There you are. Told you so. :lol:

#1237 Roger Clark

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:24

It looks like a Brabham with 32-valve engine to me. Silverstone?

#1238 Macca

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 13:45

The only time the Brabham team used the 32-valver in a race was JB at Monaco, carrying no. 1.

All the other times they used were only in practise, and DG always had it, in France, Britain, Italy and the US, where he carried respectively nos. 8, 14, 12 and 8. JB used no. 7 in France and the US (and also in Mexico where they'd given up on the 32) but always used a 16-valver.

So, given that it's a Brabham, and a 32-valve FWMV, if it's got no. 7 on it the answer is ............... :confused:

Paul M



#1239 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 14:26

Brabham didn't drive in France, where Gurney and Hulme were #14 and #16. At Silverstone Gurney ended up racing Brabham's #7 after his own car #8 broke its 32 valve engine during the warm-up. This doesn't alter the point that #7 wasn't fitted with the 32-valver at Silverstone.

Edited by Tim Murray, 09 February 2012 - 14:59.


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#1240 Roger Clark

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 14:53

Did they have the 32-vqlve engine in practice for the International Trophy?

#1241 Macca

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 16:19

Brabham didn't drive in France, where Gurney and Hulme were #14 and #16. At Silverstone Gurney ended up racing Brabham's #7 after his own car #8 broke its 32 valve engine during the warm-up. This doesn't alter the point that #7 wasn't fitted with the 32-valver at Silverstone.


Got mixed-up looking at my own notes.....

Anyway, car no.7 never had the 32-valver; not for Silverstone or the Glen.

According to JB's own column in Motor Racing, they got their 32-valver just in time for Monaco.

Paul M


#1242 David M. Kane

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 17:10

That Pop. Mech. article had been flagged up a couple of pages ago, as are the Time and Life articles from the period.......

As to why McQueen didn't do GP, he'd taken himself out of the frame, as described here better than I can in a review of the DVD:
"If you're like me, you look at Grand Prix and immediately think "1966...auto racing...where the hell is McQueen?" Sure enough, Steve McQueen was both the studio's and the director's original choice to play Peter Aron. McQueen was (unsurprisingly) interested -- until, as Frankenheimer notes in one of the featurettes, he met co-producer Ed Lewis (Spartacus) to discuss the project. For some reason Frankenheimer wasn't able to attend the meeting, and sent Lewis in his stead. We'll never know what could have happened if he had gone himself, but we do know what actually happened: McQueen instantly hated Lewis, who instantly hated him back; he didn't participate; and he, in his stubbornness, set himself on a personal quest to make his own racing film, which eventually resulted in the Le Mans debacle."

MGM and Frankenheimer were going to make it anyway, whatever McQueen thought, and he was tied up filming in Taiwan in early 1966 and was unwell when he returned to the USA. Neile McQueen also says in her account of Steve hearing of Garner's casting:
' "Honey, come on now, be reasonable," I pleaded. "I hate to tell you this, but you're overreacting. Look. You were asked to do the picture, but you didn't want to. Jim is an actor. You cannot begrudge him for accepting a part that somebody's going to do. I mean, it could have been Paul Newman or Jim Coburn just as easily. Obviously the producers have to go for a big name. They're not dummies. They're not going to hand the picture to some unknown just because these stars are your friends! Honey, you do see what I mean, don't you?"

He did see, but he didn't like it. It was two years before Steve would speak to Jim, although even then he really never felt the same way about the man again. Steve pouted and felt he had been betrayed and that was that. I felt bad because we had shared so many good times with the Garners.'

meanwhile at Zandvoort
Posted Image
copright Harry Pot

"I wonder if McQueen is pi**ing in my yard again."

Paul M


Wow!

#1243 David M. Kane

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:36

Grand Prix cost $9 Million USD in 1966 about $58 Million in 2010 money. It will be interesting to see what RUSH ends up costing. I'd sure like to know GP has earned over the years.

#1244 Russ Snyder

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 21:11

James Garner vs Steve Mcqueen....

the things one learns on these forums.

IIRC, Mcqueen, as the head fire chief, had written into his contract in the Towering Inferno (1975) that he must have as many lines in the movie as Paul Newman. When watching this movie now, it appears that Mcqueen is connected to Newman's hip ala siamese twin. the writers gave Mcqueen rather silly lines to follow up Newman's. check out his non-sequiturs when the building is starting to fire up like the whicker man, he says "boy, what a fire"....or he repeats what Newman just said....

Grand Prix is one of those pieces that stands the test of time.

#1245 David M. Kane

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 23:13

James Garner vs Steve Mcqueen....

the things one learns on these forums.

IIRC, Mcqueen, as the head fire chief, had written into his contract in the Towering Inferno (1975) that he must have as many lines in the movie as Paul Newman. When watching this movie now, it appears that Mcqueen is connected to Newman's hip ala siamese twin. the writers gave Mcqueen rather silly lines to follow up Newman's. check out his non-sequiturs when the building is starting to fire up like the whicker man, he says "boy, what a fire"....or he repeats what Newman just said....

Grand Prix is one of those pieces that stands the test of time.


Russ:

I had no idea he was so insecure. Such a fire! Why didn't he break it up with "Oy vey!Paul you want that I should get a bucket." What a putz!

Edited by David M. Kane, 11 February 2012 - 23:13.


#1246 Macca

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 14:51

Going back to the driver with Garner a few posts ago, who we thought might be Jonathan Williams, here is a pic from the late Michael Cooper's site of Frankenheimer talking to Schlesser, Sabato, Bondurant, Phil Hill, and somebody else who appears to be the same person as in the earlier pic..........but it doesn't look like Jonathino (too tall for one thing):

Posted Image

Any suggestions?

Paul M

#1247 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 16:09

I'd say, the driver in front of the photographer is indeed Jonathan Williams. Who could the driver behind Frankenheimer be? Stommelen, Linge?

#1248 David M. Kane

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 21:14

I'd say, the driver in front of the photographer is indeed Jonathan Williams. Who could the driver behind Frankenheimer be? Stommelen, Linge?


Looks like Jo Schlesser to me.

#1249 Gary C

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 21:33

'Looks like Jo Schlesser to me.'
I'd certainly agree with that.

#1250 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:49

Looks like Jo Schlesser to me.


Yes, but I mean the helmeted guy between Frankenheimer and Schlesser.