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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#151 dolomite

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 17:23

Originally posted by arthurive
Can anyone help out with this?

Why did they use the banking at Monza during the film?


It was necessary to the plot, in order to facilitate the demise of J-P Sarti.
Clearly they weren't trying to reproduce the 1966 season completely accurately - another example is that they had the French GP at Clermont-Ferrand instead of Reims.

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#152 arthurive

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 18:09

Thanks,

Another question: Clearly the directors/producers were trying to draw parallels to existing
GP drivers/personalities.

Pete Aron - Dan Gurney or Phil Hill
Nino Barlini - Lorenzo Bandini (obvious)
Scott Stoddart - Jim Clark (obvious)
JP Sarti? This character has no direct parallel. Sarti was a Frenchman yes?
He was portrayed as the peerless verteran and great champion, sort of like
a Fangio parallel. At the time (1966) there was really no Frenchmen in F1, at least not
near the upper level. Did they portray Sarti as a Frenchman because , the French are/were
considered cultured and romantic? He portrayed a very sophisticated gentlemen, which
was probably a very unusual characteristic for real race drivers then OR now.

#153 gli77

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 19:30

Originally posted by arthurive
Why did they use the banking at Monza during the film?

I think it's because of American people: in this way, the race looks more like an american race on an oval.
In the Stallone's film Driven, this is the opposite problem: all the tracks looks more like the Cart championship than the F1 championship...

:) In the book about the Charade/ Clermont-Ferrand track, there is 2 pages about the making of, with some pictures.
There is the GT 40 with the camera on it, and a F1 like a trailer at the back, without the front wheels, and also the car used for the spins: a F1 on another one, drived by Chris Amon.

:) Next Sunday (23 th May) , the film will be on the french TV Arte Channel.

;) Another question: in the film with french dialogs, the voice of the speaker is the real one of the french races speaker at this time: Tommy Franklin. What's about the original version??

#154 gli77

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 19:37

Originally posted by arthurive

JP Sarti? This character has no direct parallel. Sarti was a Frenchman yes?
He was portrayed as the peerless verteran and great champion, sort of like
a Fangio parallel. At the time (1966) there was really no Frenchmen in F1, at least not
near the upper level. Did they portray Sarti as a Frenchman because , the French are/were
considered cultured and romantic? He portrayed a very sophisticated gentlemen, which
was probably a very unusual characteristic for real race drivers then OR now.

Yes, he is remember me Jean-Pierre Wimille.
Not only because of his first name, but he was also very cultured, romantic, a real gentleman(the women realy loved him...) and a great champion.
And Yves Montand looks a little bit like him...
So why not??

#155 Pils1989

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 19:42

Thanks gli77 for the info, I'll watch it again for the... 10th time and even if I have the video-tapes :)

#156 Ralliart

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 02:15

Originally posted by arthurive
Can anyone help out with this?

Why did they use the banking at Monza during the film?
The actual race at Monza in 1966, did not use the banked section.
To the best of my knowlege, the banking was used in 1955 & 1956, then again
in 1960 & 1961. For one lap, you were required to use a combination of the oval track
and the actual GP circuit. The sequence was: Start - Curva Grande, to the Lesmos, to
the Variante Ascari(which was Curva de Vialone- then to the Parabolica. When you came
off of the Parabolica, yo had to stay "inside" and you head off to the oval, first the Curva Nord
then of course around to the Curva Sud. Leaving the banking you'd go back to the Start off
to the Curva Grande etc. One lap was over 6 miles.


The banking was used in the 1957 and 1958 Race Of Two Worlds (I think that was the title) was it not?

#157 Macca

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 10:35

Pete Aron - Dan Gurney or Phil Hill
Scott Stoddart - Jim Clark (obvious)
JP Sarti? This character has no direct parallel.
Nino Barlini - Lorenzo Bandini (obvious)




I think Aron was largely Phil Hill, but also Ginther, who had been with Ferrari, then BRM, then joined Honda and got back his fire and determination and won them their first GP.

The driving of Stoddart was Clark, and his relationship with Jeff Jordan was similar to Clark and Chapman; but his character and his dead World Champion brother were fictional.

Barlini had a similar name to Bandini, but was nothing like him as a person. Barlini was a young brash ex-motorcycle champion, and there were ex-motorcyclists in F1 (Behra, Surtees, Hocking, Anderson) but IIRC no Italians.

Sarti was indeed unlike any real driver; he was supposed to have been Champion in 1961 and 1964. Frankenheimer admitted he had got it wrong by killing off his most sympathetic character.



I think Frankenheimer wanted to use the banking at Monza because he had to come up with a crash that was even more spectacular than the one at Monaco with the two BRMs. Apparently he kept asking Phil Hill, his racing adviser (also stand-in driver, camera-car driver and occasional actor) how a car could happen to go over the banking until Hill admitted that if it ran over a piece of debris at just the wrong angle, it could happen. Maybe Frankenheimer knew about the crash of Behra at Avus in 1959.

Although the Monza banking hadn't been used for F1s after the first practise of 1962 and 1963, it was used for the 100k sportscar race as late as 1967, IIRC.

Paul

#158 Breadmaster

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 11:57

Jean-Pierre Sarti is a god.

I look up to him (thank you Yves Montand!) more than most real GP Drivers I could name!

I love the quote - "When I see something really horrible, I put my foot down... Hard! Because I know everyone else is lifting theirs."

I know several people have it as their sig.......i'm tempted......I always cry at the end of Grand Prix....

#159 Macca

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 12:09

Meant 'Monza 1000k ' of course.

And there was also Hailwood among the ex-bikers, and later Beltoise. Geoff Duke raced, but not in F1,; Bill Ivy raced F2; and Agostini raced in the Aurora British F1 championship. Any others?


Paul

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#160 Pedro 917

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 13:56

Originally posted by Macca

Although the Monza banking hadn't been used for F1s after the first practise of 1962 and 1963, it was used for the 1000k sportscar race as late as 1967, IIRC.

IIRC, it was last used at the 1000km race in 1969.

#161 ensign14

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 14:19

Originally posted by Macca

The driving of Stoddart was Clark, and his relationship with Jeff Jordan was similar to Clark and Chapman; but his character and his dead World Champion brother were fictional.

Stoddart was actually Stewart - check out the tartan. So the brother was not quite so fictional, although a lot more successful and less lucky...

There are echoes of Schumi in Aron. Putting other drivers off track and demanding total submission from his team-mate...

#162 Macca

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 14:39

All four film drivers used the helmet colours and cars of four real drivers and had similar-looking and -sounding names so that film and sound (including public address) of the real races could be used as well as the fake cars.

I don't think JYS used to go to all Jimmy's races and walk the track with him though! And might you mean 'less successful and more lucky' (ie not Champion but retired safely)?

After Surtees left Ferrari during 1966, Sarti's helmet had to change to match that of Parkes instead.

And I wouldn't expect Schumi to take his team-mate off, even 'accidentally on purpose', if he should by some mischance happen to be being lapped; but demanding the best car and all the boss's attention is common to a lot of top drivers through the decades.



Paul


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Edited by Macca, 31 August 2012 - 21:14.


#163 ensign14

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 16:40

Originally posted by Macca
And might you mean 'less successful and more lucky' (ie not Champion but retired safely)?

Yes, the other way round, in that Roger Stoddard was more successful than Jimmy Stewart &c.

Funny that the 'extra' names were not similar - Bob Turner and Tim Randolph are not similar to their equivalents.

#164 Rob29

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 16:49

Just found this thread. One question asked a few pages back was; were scenes deleted from the original version when shown on TV? I too went to the UK premiere at Leicester Square Theatre but can't remember every scene back that far. I have a copy taped from British TV. Might the missing scenes be on the version frequently shown on the TCM satelite channel?

#165 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 17:14

I taped the film off BBC back in 1984 and subsequently off TNT/TCM later. There are no diffrences apart from TCM always show the film in widescreen - which is much better.

Any word of a DVD being released yet?

#166 Barry Boor

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 17:32

were scenes deleted from the original version when shown on TV?



ABSOLUTELY!!!! The little chap who seems to be friends with everyone and who picks Stoddard's wife up from her hotel room at Monaco, features MUCH more in the full version.

This is because he has, shall we say, a personal problem when in close proximity to a lady, which can only be overcome with the help of a racing car engine. I can say no more !

The 'problem' stems from watching his mother getting 'friendly' with a soldier when he was a little boy and becoming traumatised by it.

(I know this sounds ludicrous, but believe me, it was in the original film, but I have never seen it since.)

#167 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 17:36

Blimey!!!!!!!!!!


I saw the original film in 1966 as an eight year old. Maybe that explains some of my phobias. On second thoughts, I did see it in Ireland and I'm sure those scenes would have fallen foul of the Irish Film Censor.

#168 Twin Window

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 07:58

I'm not sure if this is either newsworthy or even of any interest but I heard just last week that the Pete Aron 'BRM' is currently at Hall & Hall, and still has all it's orignal bodywork, Ford engine etc.

TW

#169 Macca

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 11:54

I got my Mum to take me when it came out in early 1967 because I was 11 and it was an 'A' film, but I don't remember the risque bit; maybe it was cut from the general release copies, or maybe I was so obsessed by the cars that I just didn't notice the non-racing scenes. I wonder where they got that bright idea; surely not from life! The actor in question is Claude Dauphin who had been in a Doris Day film in 1952 and later appeared in 'Barbarella'..........an interesting career progression!



The 'Jordan-BRM' Lotus appeared at the Crystal Palace Sprint in 1999 and then at Coys with the real BRMs which were featured that year, and has been raced in Historic Formula Junior since then, fitted with proper Lotus bodywork but painted in the BRM green/orange colours.




Paul

#170 quintin cloud

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 07:20

I have not been following the thread all the time but has anyone heard anything about when or if MGM is going to release Grand prix on DVD :confused:

#171 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 07:22

Anyone able to receive TCM in mainland Europe: next saturday 14:00 (Amsterdam, Paris, Milan) Grand Prix is scheduled again. After zapping (halfway) into this movie at the same channel twice I will now be stand by with the VCR (helmet on, cold beer in hand). The movie starts at 14:20, at 14:00 there is a sort of "Making of Bullit and GP" scheduled.

Anyhow I am looking forward to all inboard shots again, especially the Zandvoort ones.

Hoping to have informed you timely.

#172 Macca

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 09:28

ITV in the UK is showing 'Winning' on Sunday afternoon immediately after the coverage of the Monaco GP (delays permitting).

Isn't that the film that shows the Honker Can-Am, about which Mario said it was the worst car he ever drove?

IIRC Len Bailey designed it, which is why the body is similar to the Alan Mann Ford F3L - which is another car that didn't go as well as it looked as though it ought to. And then he did Frank Williams' first F1, the Politoys, which Pescarolo nominated as HIS worst-ever car in Motor Sport - bit of a trend here.

So where did it all go wrong, after Bailey's involvement in the GT40?

Also I read on a (German IIRC) website that the Weslake/Cosworth/Ford V12 of 1972 was destined originally to go in the Politoys, which I'd never heard of before. Tosh, or a grain of truth?



Paul

#173 jj2728

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 11:08

Originally posted by Barry Boor

ABSOLUTELY!!!! The little chap who seems to be friends with everyone and who picks Stoddard's wife up from her hotel room at Monaco, features MUCH more in the full version.
This is because he has, shall we say, a personal problem when in close proximity to a lady, which can only be overcome with the help of a racing car engine. I can say no more !
The 'problem' stems from watching his mother getting 'friendly' with a soldier when he was a little boy and becoming traumatised by it.
(I know this sounds ludicrous, but believe me, it was in the original film, but I have never seen it since.)


that's interesting barry, cause some time back there was also a paperback version available and it too went into detail about 'hugo' and his problems so to say.....i was 12 when i saw the film in 1967 and don't remember that being in it either....

#174 Pils1989

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 08:13

I've found other pictures taken during the filming.

Posted Image

Posted Image
Pilette, Schlesser, Montand

Posted Image
Bondurant, unknown, Pilette, Rindt, unknown

#175 Bayou Bengal

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 05:21

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
I taped the film off BBC back in 1984 and subsequently off TNT/TCM later. There are no diffrences apart from TCM always show the film in widescreen - which is much better.

Any word of a DVD being released yet?


When I saw Grand Prix it was at the local Cinerama Theater which is wider than any widescreen ever. The screen curved and was supposed to be the same as the view from one eye. The movie was filmed in Cinerama which was even wider than Panavision or the other widescreen formats.

Originally Cinerama movies were filmed with a special camera that put the image on three separate pieces of film and used three projectors in the theater. But by the mid-sixties they had figured out how to put the image on a single spool of film using specialized optics. If you want to see a three projector Cinerama film, get hold of "How The West Was Won". You can see the splices where the different rolls of film overlap. It used to be a regular on TNT or TBS. Another Cinerama film that is a classic is "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad Mad World". Every comedian in Hollywood makes an appearance in this film.

And the best known Cinerama film is "2001: A Space Odessey" which was the last film I saw at the Cinerama before it closed. I saw this film again in January 2002 in New York with my daughter. She had never seen it on the big screen and it was playing at a theater BELOW Time Square. It turned out to be an Cinerama theater but much larger than the one in New Orleans. It was great to see "2001" on the big screen again.

#176 Bayou Bengal

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 05:38

Originally posted by ensign14
Stoddart was actually Stewart - check out the tartan. So the brother was not quite so fictional, although a lot more successful and less lucky...

There are echoes of Schumi in Aron. Putting other drivers off track and demanding total submission from his team-mate...


Physically they used Stewart's helmet to match the BRM car and driver in the real races but the character was closer to Clark's style and personality. But most of it was just fiction.

#177 Rob29

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 07:04

Originally posted by Bayou Bengal


When I saw Grand Prix it was at the local Cinerama Theater which is wider than any widescreen ever. The screen curved and was supposed to be the same as the view from one eye. The movie was filmed in Cinerama which was even wider than Panavision or the other widescreen formats.

Originally Cinerama movies were filmed with a special camera that put the image on three separate pieces of film and used three projectors in the theater. But by the mid-sixties they had figured out how to put the image on a single spool of film using specialized optics. If you want to see a three projector Cinerama film, get hold of "How The West Was Won". You can see the splices where the different rolls of film overlap. It used to be a regular on TNT or TBS. Another Cinerama film that is a classic is "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad Mad World". Every comedian in Hollywood makes an appearance in this film.

And the best known Cinerama film is "2001: A Space Odessey" which was the last film I saw at the Cinerama before it closed. I saw this film again in January 2002 in New York with my daughter. She had never seen it on the big screen and it was playing at a theater BELOW Time Square. It turned out to be an Cinerama theater but much larger than the one in New Orleans. It was great to see "2001" on the big screen again.

yes,it was the same in London. I remember the best seats we could get or afford? were at the right hand side of the curved screen,which was not that briliant.Saw it again later that year from the middle. Someone erllier said they they saw it at the Leicester Square Theatre.I think it was in fact called the Cinerama Theatre nearer to Piccadily Circus,and now a theatre for live musical shows.

#178 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 09:36

"The Sound of Music" and "Custer of the West" were also Cinerama productions.

#179 Twin Window

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 09:37

Originally posted by Macca


Also I read on a (German IIRC) website that the Weslake/Cosworth/Ford V12 of 1972 was destined originally to go in the Politoys, which I'd never heard of before. Tosh, or a grain of truth?


Paul

As far as I'm aware, the Weslake V12 was fitted in a Brabham during 1972 and was tested at Monza, but never raced. The chassis was a one-off BT39 whic I seem to remember was a March 721G-style modified F2 car with larger pontoon tanks fitted. If my memeory serves, it had front radiator treatment similar to the BT34 'Lobster Claw'. I've got a pic of it... somewhere!

TW

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#180 petefenelon

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 10:37

Originally posted by Twin Window


Paul

As far as I'm aware, the Weslake V12 was fitted in a Brabham during 1972 and was tested at Monza, but never raced. The chassis was a one-off BT39 whic I seem to remember was a March 721G-style modified F2 car with larger pontoon tanks fitted. If my memeory serves, it had front radiator treatment similar to the BT34 'Lobster Claw'. I've got a pic of it... somewhere!

TW


Pretty sure there's a pic of it in Alan Henry's "Brabham: The Grand Prix Cars". I'll take a look tonight when I get home.

#181 Macca

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 10:41

Yes, I've got that picture of the Brabham-Weslake, from the old Brabham F1 cars book.

I think it was also tested in the back of a BRM P160, and certainly in the longtail coupe version of the Mirage M6 at Le Mans.



Paul

#182 Macca

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 10:45

This is where I found that story about the Politoys:

http://www.research-...de/weslake1.htm



Paul

#183 Twin Window

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 11:03

Interesting; and BRM too! Purely by coincidence, as they are related in name only, the early 90s BRM sports prototype used the last derivative of the Weslake V12 that I'm aware of.

TW

#184 Macca

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 12:14

http://images.fotopi...3&outx=430&oq=0

#185 Macca

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 12:17

http://images.fotopi...3&outx=430&oq=0

Still getting the hang of this.

Paul

#186 Macca

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 12:22

Why won't that picture come up, even though I've done it as an image? The original is 4124 bytes.

PWM

#187 jimpern

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 00:54

I first saw "Grand Prix" in a Cinerama theater as well, but in my case it was in San Juan, Puerto Rico! It didn't make it there until the late spring of 1967, not long before Lorenzo Bandini's tragic death at Monaco. I think it was the combination of Sarti's fictional death and Bandini's real one that made me a Ferrari fan for life. (There seemed to be a special passion about Ferrari, fueled by the Old Man, that made drivers try too hard, with often fatal results.)

I put up a thread on the FerrariChat messageboard which includes some memorable quotes from the film. (I've also submitted most of these to the International Movie Database, www.imdb.com.)

http://ferrarichat.c...ead.php?t=18973

#188 Macca

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 12:02

images.fotopic.net/?id=5039552&outx=284&oq=0
Barlini/Sabato in a (Brabham) ferrari at Brands

images.fotopic.net/?id=5039551&outx=286&oq=0
Aron/Garner at Brands

images.fotopic.net/?id=5039553&outx=348&oq=0
montage from Sports Car Intl.



PWM

#189 Macca

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 12:09

http://images.fotopi...3&outx=430&oq=0

#190 Macca

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 13:23

Now I've read and printed out the idiots' guide to posting images, got some webspace of my own, reduced the images down to less than 50kb, followed the instructions - and they still won't appear.

I must have invented a new level of computer illiteracy or something!




PWM

#191 Twin Window

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 15:23

I could see the magazine cover ok!

TW

#192 Rob Ryder

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 15:26

Macca
The image in the link on post 190 appears OK :up:

The three on post 189 seem to have an incorrect URL :( ....

Remove forums.atlasf1.com/ from the links and they will work a treat ! :) :)

Rob

#193 Macca

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 17:09

But I'm trying to post them as images, not links!

:confused:

PM

#194 dolomite

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 17:56

Originally posted by Macca
But I'm trying to post them as images, not links!

:confused:

PM


I think you'll find that there is some cunning code on the Fotopic site which prevents you from doing that!

#195 Twin Window

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 18:02

I followed Rob's route and saw the other three by removing the unwanted bits of the URL. Seen them all now, so he was spot on!

TW

#196 Rob Ryder

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 18:08

Macca
If you remove the text I indicated from your URL's they will appear as images... not links.
Rob

#197 Macca

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 16:17

Posted Image

#198 Macca

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 16:22

Result!

That's Jim Russell doubling for Yves Montand in a Lotus 20 'Ferrari' at Stavelot, with a Lotus 25 'Yamura' in the background, for the Belgian GP crash.


Paul M

#199 Macca

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 16:35

Posted Image

Spa again, fake Eagle on the left, and Lotus 25 'Ferrari', presumably the same ones shown in the earlier behind-the-scenes shots at Masta.

Posted Image

The third type of fake Ferrari, a Brabham-Climax (As driven by Barlini at certain points at Monaco and Brands), at Clermont-Ferrand for the staged French GP.

Posted Image

'Big Blow' cover art.

Posted Image

and it seems unsurprising that there were ructions betwwen the characters in the film; not content with making off with Stoddart's wife, Aron seems to have something going on elsewhere............

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#200 BorderReiver

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 16:39

:love:

She's spanking gorgeous!

Great Pics Macca by the way.