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Banning of moveable objects - when and why?


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#1 pinchevs

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 08:17

I've had a discussion about when and why a ban on moveable objects was introduced.
I (for some reason) thought that when the high wings were banned, moveable objects were included on safety grounds too, but also because if they were going to ban the high wings of the British teams, they needed to ban Ferrari's moveable wings too.

However, I'd really like to know what happened for real.

Thanks,
Moshe Pinchevsky

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 08:46

I'm pretty sure you are right Moshe. Certainly Lotus and McLaren also had driver-adjustable wings: those on the Lotus 49B were controlled by what were described at the time as "rubber bands" and part of the concern about high wings was based on the prospect of what might happen if one of these movable wings came loose at high speed. Instead of providing downforce, it might provide lift and make the car uncontrollable. In addition, it is probable that the control sytems for the wings put undue stress on the wings and wing mountings - examine photos of Hill's and Rindt's cars in and after their Spanish GP crashes and you'll see that the rear wings actually collapsed first, causing the cars to hit the barriers.

#3 Ursus

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 08:53

I'd guess there was also some worry about what would happen if the actuation system failed. You wouldn't know until it was way too late. I would be like missing your braking point with a huge margin.

#4 LittleChris

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 09:29

I think the ban on high wings occurred during the 1969 Monaco GP weekend, possibly after 1st practice. I remember from the TV that the Lotus ran with something looking like a tea tray during the race at least ( Graham Hills last GP victory IIRC ). This was a direct result of the huge crashes at Montjuich involving Hill and Rindt in the previous GP.

Chris

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 10:08

Exactly right Chris - it was after Monaco first practice. There was an awful lot of metal bashing went on that day! This was discussed in another thread a while back:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=21316

#6 FLB

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 13:18

When we think of movable wing, we generally think in terms of F1, but the Porsche 917 was also designed with them in mind. It had a movable rear wing linked with the rear suspension when introduced at the Geneva Auto Show in 1969.

#7 Chris Bloom

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 17:46

I'm sure the Porsche 917's had adjustable wings at Le Mans in 1970 or 71?

Chris

#8 cjpani

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 18:29

Originally posted by Chris Bloom
I'm sure the Porsche 917's had adjustable wings at Le Mans in 1970 or 71?

Chris


Chris, actually it was during the early months of 1969 when the FIA started giving thought to the idea, arguing that were dangerous devices.

In Hockenheim, prof. Helmut Bott explained the benefits of using such devices, since porsche had been doing intensive research on the matter.

Then, at Le Mans, all marques were bannes from using them, except for Porsche, because of it´s insistence.

After that race, they were permanently banned.

Not only the 917 used such devices, also the 908/2

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Cheers
cj

#9 biercemountain

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 18:53

If I'm not mistaken the CanAm series saw the most widespread use of movable aerodynamic devices before they were banned. I know the Chaparals used them and a number of other cars did too. From what I've read they really weren't very effective as they were impossible to use with any degree of precision.

It would be logical that the ban on the "High Wings" on GP cars came prior to the ban on movable wings seeing that the high wings were some of the first true wings.

#10 Don Capps

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 20:14

The Winter of 1968/1969, the CSI mulled over the issue of "moveable aerodynamic devices" and in its usual manner deferred any action on the matter. Then came the Spanish GP. This sort of possibility had already become apparent almost a year earlier when Jackie Oliver's Lotus 49 had a horrific shunt at Rouen due to the wing failing. Even after what happened in Spain, the CSI dithered and not until after the first practice session at Monte Carlo did it finally act -- even if its guidelines were as clear as mud.

The Porsche 917 was designed from the git-go with the "flaps" cjpani was kind enough to post. However, although the flaps were allowed to remain on the cars at Le Mans, they were run in the "locked" position.

In the USofA, the CSI ban was not implemented for the Formula A and Group 7/ Can-Am cars during the 1969 season. In 1970, the F/A cars still ran the high wings while the Can-Am cars did not. It was during the testing at Goodwood of the new "low-wing" Can-Am bodywork that Bruce McLaren was killed.

#11 pinchevs

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Posted 09 September 2001 - 10:53

Thank you very much to everyone!

I'd like to sum up things to a clear short answer saying that the moveable wings were banned together with the high wings after first practice for the 1969 Monaco GP. Is this right?

#12 cjpani

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Posted 10 September 2001 - 16:18

Don, it is my understanding that every marque at the 1969 Le Mans event was prihibited to use them, EXCEPT for porsche, due to their insistence on the matter.

You are saying that porsche ran with the flaps locked, or everybody else??

Thx in advance

cj

#13 Don Capps

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Posted 10 September 2001 - 17:09

I was on a tight schedule this weekend so forgot to check about the 917 flaps, but I will do so ASAP. It is my recollection that the flaps were locked. However, the 917 was such a handful at that time -- remember that John Woolf fatally crashed in one that year (1969), that whether it had flaps or not was probably an academic issue.

#14 Bumblyari

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Posted 10 September 2001 - 23:23

According to Paul Frere the 917s were allowed to run with moveable flaps (since Porsche argued they were undriveable otherwise) but as a compromise the long-tailed 908s had their flaps disconnected.

Also, IIRC, wasn't the Brabham fan car banned on the basis that it used a moveable aerodynamic device ?

#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 10 September 2001 - 23:29

Originally posted by Bumblyari


Also, IIRC, wasn't the Brabham fan car banned on the basis that it used a moveable aerodynamic device ?


I think that was also the basis for banning the Chaparral 2J and the Lotus 88.

#16 MOTORSPORT RESORT

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Posted 11 September 2001 - 13:41

What's real interesting, even when they "banned" moving wings etc. the designers found a way to still have them move even when they were "fixed" by soft material on the wing surface that made the wing "flex" at high speed giving less downforce than when going into the corners.....as the say: "There are:Cheeter's , and there are :Looser's":lol:

speedy@f1power.com:smoking:

#17 Bumblyari

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Posted 11 September 2001 - 19:02

It's what they call 'bending the rules';)