34 replies to this topic

[Leif Snellman]

Is there anyone who knows more about 1930s racing drivers named "Count Castelbarco"?

When I created my web page "The Golden Era" I used sources that showed
"Count Carlo Castelbarco" and "Count L. Castelbarco". I assumed at the time that the "L." was an error in
the book index and that both books were refering to the same driver.

Now Alessandro Silva has however told me that there indeed were two racing drivers named Castelbarco.
That Carlo probably retired after a crash at Monza 1933 and that it was a Comte Luigi Castelbarco, who raced
voiturettes in the late 30s.

Were the two persons closely related? Were they indeed both counts?
Were they brothers, cousins, or a father & son pair?

This is what Alessando Silva had to say:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Sheldon lists only Luigi which is rather unbelivable in
view of the enormous variety of cars that he was supposed to have raced.
I am postive that Carlo owned a 8C Monza in 1933. I am also positive that with
this car he came in second at the MM (with Cortese), and entered the Italian
GP, crashing in the Monza GP in the afternoon (sources: Lurani/Canestrini). I
conjecture that he did not race afterwards. I think that his 8C Monza went to
Cornaggia-Medici in 1934.
Luigi was a motorcycle racer around '25 and his more famous car was a Bugatti
1.5L GP 8cyl. in the late 20s. Then came one of the very first Maserati 4CM
single-seaters in 1934, winning the Voiturette Eifelrennen.
I do not know which one of Carlo or Luigi raced one of the ill-fated Talbot
700 in 30/32 and an Amilcar cyclecar in 28/31 and a Maserati 26 in those years
together with various other Bugattis (?).
I also do not know if they were brothers or cousins, but in any case, because
of a loose Italian habit, they were both rightly called Counts.



And here is what Hans Etzrodt has found so far (shortend):

---------------------------------------------------------------------

CARLO Castelbarco

I found only 4 sources where CARLO Castelbarco is mentioned by first name.
· Lurani, Giovanni, Racing Round the World
· Carli, Emanuele Alberto, Settant'anni di gare automobilistiche in Italia.
· Hull, Peter & Slater, Roy, ALFA ROMEO A History, Revised Edition.
· Miller, Peter, Conte Maggi's MILLE MIGLIA

1933, Apr 8-9 - Mille Miglia: 2nd with Franco Cortese, Alfa Romeo 2300 (Carli) (Lurani "Mille Miglia 1927-1957"
has a reference to last name of Castelbarco only. Cortese drove throughout the 1933 Mille Miglia)
1933, Jun 11 - Colli Torinesi mountain climb (Umberto-Colle della Maddalena): 1st with Alfa Romeo 2300 (Carli)
1933, Jul 9 - Varese-Campo dei Fiori mountain climb: 3rd with Alfa Romeo 2300 (Carli)
1933, Sep 10 - Italian GP: 6th with Alfa Romeo 2300 (Carli See under LUIGI, Sheldon, Vol.3)

Contradiction: Sheldon's 1933 Italian GP and 1933 Monza GP show LUIGI whereas Lurani shows CARLO, as does Carli for
the Italian GP.
CARLO's name does not appear after the 1933 crash in any of my sources.
By looking at LUIGI's driving record below (incomplete), lets not forget that Sheldon's
results don't mention the name CARLO at all! So, he probably does not know about Carlo's existence!


LUIGI Castelbarco (*1932 & *1934 = first name not known)

1929, Feb 24 - Edolo-Pontedilegno mountain climb: 2nd with Bugatti (Carli)
1929, Mar 24 - Tripoli GP Junior: DNF with Amilcar (Sheldon, Vol.2 )
1929, Apr 21 - Alessandria: 1st in Class & 11th overall with Amilcar (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1930, Apr 20 - Alessandria on Bordino Circuit: DNF with Amilcar (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1930, Oct 26 - Coppa Castelli Romana, 270 km sports cars: 2nd with OM (Carli)
1931, Mar 29 - Tunis GP: DNF with Talbot 700 (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1931, Apr 26 - Alessandria on Bordino Circuit: 4th with Maserati 26M (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1931, Jun 7 - Rome GP: 7th & DNC in Final with Bugatti T35C (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1931, Augt 2 - Coppa Ciano: 9th with Bugatti T35C (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1931, Sep 6 - Monza : 9th in HEAT 2 with Maserati 26M (Sheldon, Vol.2)
1932, Apr 3 - Tunis GP: 11th overall & 3rd in Voiturette class with Bugatti T37A (Sheldon, Vol.3)
*1932, Apr 9-10 - Mille Miglia DNF with Achille Varzi in Bugatti T51 (Terruzzi: Una Curva Cieca, refers only to last name)
1932, Apr 24 - Rome GP: 7th with Maserati 26M (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1932, Jun 5 - Italian GP: crash after ¼ race with Maserati 26M (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1932, Jul 31 - Coppa Ciano: 10th with Maserati 26M (see Sheldon, Vol.3)
1933, Mar 19 - Rocca di Papa mountain climb: 2nd with Maserati 2500 (Carli)
1933, Apr 30 - Alessandria on Bordino Circuit: 8th in FINAL with Alfa Romeo 8C-2300 (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1933, May 7 - Tripoli GP: 10th with Alfa Romeo 8C-2300 (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1933, Jun 29 - Sassari Circuit, 201 km sports cars: 2nd with Alfa Romeo (Carli)
1933, Aug 27 - Stelvio Mountain Climb, ????????????????? (Lurani: Racing Round The World)
1933, Sep 10 - Italian GP: 6th with Alfa Romeo 2300 (Sheldon, Vol.3). See under CARLO (Carli)
1933, Sep 10 - Monza GP: Crash with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1934, May 27 - Avusrennen: 3rd in Class with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1934, Jun 3 - Eifelrennen: 1st in Class with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3). (MOTOR und SPORT 1934,
No.23, reference to Graf Castelbarco-Italien)
*1934, Jun 17 - Kesselberg Mt. climb: 1st in Class with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (MOTOR und SPORT 1934, No.25
reference to Graf Castelbarco-Mailand)
*1934, Aug 5 - Klausenrennen: 4th in Class with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (MOTOR und SPORT 1934, No.32, Graf
M: Castelbarco. M: for what?)
*1934, Aug 19 - ADAC-Bergrekord, Freiburg: 2nd in Class with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (MOTOR und SPORT 1934, No.34
reference to Graf Castelbarco-Mailand)
1934, August 26 - Prix de Bern: 6th with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1934, September 2 - Biella Circuit: 5th in HEAT 2 with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1935, June 9 - Biella Circuit: 7th in HEAT 1 with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1935, June 16 - Eifelrennen: 8th in Class with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1935, August 15 - Coppa Acerbo Junior: DNF with Maserati 4CM (1.5-liter) (Sheldon, Vol.3)
1937, May 2 - Coppa Vasassina (Lecco-Maggio mountain climb): 2nd with Alfa Romeo (Carli)
1937, May 9 - Tripoli GP: DNF with Maserati 4CM (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1937, May 30 - Avusrennen: DNF with Talbot 700 (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1937, June 20 - Milan GP: DNF with Talbot 700 (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1937, August 22 - Prix de Bern: 10th in HEAT 1 with Maserati 4CM (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1938, July 17 - Varese Circuit: DNF in HEAT 1 with Maserati 6CM (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1938, August 21 - Prix de Bern: DNF in HEAT 1with Maserati 6CM (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1938, September 11 - Milan GP: 7th with Maserati 6CM (Sheldon, Vol.4)
1939, May 7 - Tripoli GP: 10th with Maserati 6CM (Sheldon, Vol.4)

--------------

[Felix Muelas]

(Sorry, Leif)

Felix

[Vitesse2]

From Pritchard: Maserati. All Luigi Castelbarco: basically the same as your info Leif, but some discrepancies and one further entry as an entrant -

26/4/31 Bordino GP, Allesandria - 4th, Maserati 8C-2500
24/4/32 Rome GP - 7th, "2-litre Maserati"
5/6/32 Italian GP - Maserati 8C-2500
1934 Eifelrennen Voiturette - 1st, Maserati 4CM
1937 Avusrennen Voiturette - entrant for Enrico Plate, Maserati (4CM? NOT confirmed by Sheldon, who says Plate was entrant for this car and the Talbot!
22/8/38 Prix de Berne - Maserati 4C (sic)

Pritchard always just calls him "Count Castelbarco" in the text, but he is "Count L Castelbarco" in the index.

[Leif Snellman]

Very funny Felix!

Thanks, Vitesse. It was actually Pritchard's index I thought to be wrong when I made the momepage.

[William Hunt]

By this way I would like to congratulate U with your website Leif, I just love that period. The '30s had some of the most talented drivers ever, a very interesting era. I have visited your website numerous times already , it contains usefull stats , I just love it. Job well done.

PS : Who were your favourite drivers of that era Leif ?

[Boniver]

what is name ?

CMAE "club Milanese Automotoveicoli d'Epoca" - Milano - Italië

say it was

Conte Ludovico Carlo Castelbarco di Milano

for the friends "Luigi Castelbarco"

[Leif Snellman]

Thanks William.
I'm definitely a Rosemeyer fan.

[alessandro silva]

Boniver's information has to be understood correctly to avoid further confusion!!!!!
Both only available contemporary (I mean from the 30s) Italian sources in books
Lurani: Corse nel mondo
Canestrini: Una vita con le corse
clearly make a distinction between Carlo and Luigi.
Now, I have no reason to doubt that Luigi's full name was Ludovico Carlo, but Carlo (with many other names probably) was a different person. After this it seems also likely that Carlo was a name used a lot in the family and conjecturally that they were cousins to some degree.

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Boniver


CMAE "club Milanese Automotoveicoli d'Epoca" - Milano - Italië say it was Conte Ludovico Carlo Castelbarco di Milano
for the friends "Luigi Castelbarco"

OOPS! Now we are back to square one! More comments anyone?

[alessandro silva]

Our posts overlapped, read above Leif. Ludovico and Luigi are the same name in Italian.

[Leif Snellman]

Ok. So we are NOT back to square one then! More comments?

[Hans Etzrodt]

While reading up on this subject, I did notice that Carlo and Luigi never participated in the same race. I found that a bit odd, although possible but still strange. Maybe it has something to do with Felix's answer and although he seems to think it to be rather funny, he may be close to the truth. Could it be one and the same person?

[alessandro silva]

I do not want to seem pedantic, but why two leading experts would use in te same book different names for the same person that they knew pefectly well (and that in Lurani's case was a close friend and racing associate)?
Here are the pages:
Canestrini: Luigi page 135 (1928 raid Milano-Oslo)
Carlo page 169 (33 Monza GP)
Lurani: Luigi page 32 ("my friend Luigi" 1927 winner of 175cc motorcycle class in Alessandria)
Luigi page 40 (1929 winner 1100 in Alessandria, Amilcar)
Luigi page 54 (1930 boat races in Abbazia)
Luigi page 58 (1930 Vermicino-Rocca di Papa, OM 2300cc)
Luigi page 59 (1930 trip to Paris on Luigi's "big Talbot")
etc.
Carlo pages 116, 117, 118 ("my friend Carlo" 1933 MM, Carlo did not take the wheel of his Alfa Monza that was co-driven by Cortese. [An accomplished driver such as Luigi would drive the car (my comment)])
Luigi: page 131 (Stelvio hill-climb. The list of entrants does not give first names WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LUIGI Castelbarco)
Carlo: page 133 (Italian GP. The list of entrants does not give first names WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CARLO Castelbarco)
Carlo: page 134 (Monza GP. Same day. Famous crash).
Carlo disappears
Luigi: page 135 (Set up of a team wit Lurani for the 1934 season)
etc.
Luigi: page 152 (win at the Eifelrennen voiturette race)
etc.

- As for both not appearing at the same race: it appears that Carlo was a much less active driver
- There is no doubt about the fact that Luigi DID NOT crash at Monza 33

- As for Ludovico: Lodovicus (Latin) Ludwig (German) Louis (French) Luigi (Italian). Ludovico (Italian, archaic).

I maintain there was two of them.

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Thanks William.
I'm definitely a Rosemeyer fan.

I'm a Rosemeyer fan too. ;)

[Hans Etzrodt]

I believe that Alessandro will hopefully be the one to settle the Castelbarco confusion one day, whenever he has a chance to go to the Turin library and snoop through some contemporary articles. He is the only qualified historian I know.

If there exists confusion now after 70 years, then there should have been at least some puzzlement also during the thirties when Carlo and Luigi raced but entered at the various events only as 'Count Castelbarco'. Since Carlo and Luigi obviously did not interfere with each other at the races, most organizers probably knew only of THE Conte Castelbarco. In case there was NO confusion at that time, it could only mean that the organizers must have thought they were dealing with THE Conte Castelbarco, meaning there was only one Conte Castelbarco in their opinion. If one reads the results of the races or even the entry lists (possibly programs as well?) it reads "Conte Castelbarco (Milano)" and did not differentiate between Luigi and Carlo.

When I combed through the records available to me, I saw that Carlo raced only during 1933. So, it is absolutely possible that Carlo entered some events during 1933 only, under ''Conte Castelbarco", taking advantage of Luigi’s already modest fame and thereby fooling the organizers, who might have thought that they were dealing with THE Conte Castelbarco (which was of course the more successful Luigi).


Here is what I wrote to Paul Sheldon a few days ago:

The reason for this e-mail is to inform you, that there were two different persons with the name "Count Castelbarco". There was Luigi and Carlo. In your Volume 2, 3, and 4 you make reference to Luigi Castelbarco but you seem not to know about Carlo. They were both counts and gentlemen drivers but from what I read, I was unable to determine whether they were related or not.

Carlo Castelbarco appears not in your books. Yet it was he and not Luigi who crashed out of the South turn on Black Sunday of Monza on 10. September 1933. It was also he, who raced at the Italian GP, run on the same day in the morning.

I found only 5 sources where CARLO Castelbarco is mentioned by first name.
1950? Luani, Giovanni, Racing Round the World, pages 114, 129, 131 and 132.
1964 Taruffi, Piero, Works Driver, page 43, in reference to his crash at Monza.
1967 Carli, Emanuele Alberto, Settant'anni di gare automobilistiche in Italia, see index.
1982 Hull, Peter & Slater, Roy, ALFA ROMEO A History, Revised Edition, see index.
1988 Miller, Peter, Conte Maggi’s MILLE MIGLIA, see index.


Carlo Castelbarco's known racing record:
(Remember that Carli usually shows only the first 3 or 6 finishers and hardly ever non-finishers.)
1933, April 8-9 Mille Miglia: 2nd place with Franco Cortese with Alfa Romeo 2300 (see Carli, pg. 136) (Lurani’s book: “Mille Miglia 1927-1957”, pg.64 has a reference to last name of Castelbarco only. Cortese drove throughout the 1933 Mille Miglia)
1933, June 11 Colli Torinesi mountain climb (Umberto-Colle della Maddalena): 1st with Alfa Romeo 2300 (see Carli, pg. 596).
1933, July 9 - Varese-Campo dei Fiori mountain climb: 3rd with Alfa Romeo 2300 (see Carli, pg.629).
1933, September 10 Italian GP: 6th with Alfa Romeo 2300 (see Carli, pg. 123. - See sources above.
1933, September 10 Monza GP: Crash with Alfa Romeo 2300 (see Taruffi, pg. 43 - See sources above.

Unfortunately we will never know for sure in a lot of cases whether it was Luigi or Carlo who was 'hiding' behind the "Conte Castelbarco" name.
Alessandro Silva, another leisure-time historian, thinks that Carlo might have given up racing after his Monza crash in 1933.

[Marcor]

I've read newspapers from 1947 and I've found the name Castelbarco in the entry list of "La Coupe des petites cylindrées" at Reims. He was supposed to drive one Cisitalia. I don't know if he appeared.

Castelbarco also appeared in the final placings of the Italian championship (for unsupercharged cars up to 1500cc).

[alessandro silva]

Marc,
Castelbarco appears in the standing of the 47 Italian Championship because of his supposed participation in the Caracalla (Rome) race (10 points just for starting the race). It is doubtful in fact that he even started and it is possible that Lurani started the race instead. Taruffi says that and photographic evidence shows a driver looking more as Lurani. Of course we do not know very well how Luigi (it was him, I guess) looked like in 1947.
Can you tell me where did you find Castelbarco's entry in the 47 Reims race? On a Cisitalia, I suppose and it was Luigi, I suppose?

[Marcor]

The newspaper "Les Sports" (from Belgium, in French) published one day before the race an entry list of the 1947 Coupe des petites cylindrées" at Reims. The list includes:
Simca: Wimille, Gordini, Scaron, Bira, Prince Igor;
Simca Monopole: de Montrémy;
Cisitalia: Castelbarco, Minetti, Serafini, Sommer, Schell (Harry), de Saugé, Loyer, Fezi, Manzon;
Fiat: Pinzero, Torelli;
Salmson: Giraud-cabantous, Boucard;
Amilcar: Mestivier;
MG: Veuillet, Monkhouse;
ERA: Parnell (in fact it think it was Ashmore);
Lagonda-Rapier: Metcalfe;
F. Guérin: F. Guérin (relation with De Coucy ??);
R.M. Spéciale: Raoul Martin (yes Raoul, not Eugène);

The first qualifying session (Friday)
1- JP Wimille, Simca Gordini, 143.920 km/h
2- Amédée, Gordini Simca Gordini, 143.553 km/h
3- Metcalfe, Lagonda, 139.220 km/h
4- Manzon, Cisitalia, 136.518 km/h
5- José Scaron, Simca Gordini, 135.728 km/h
6- Prince Igor, Simca Gordini, 131.111 km/h
7- Veuillet, MG, 129.422 km/h
8- Mestivier, Amilcar, 126.513 km/h

The Monday or Thursday after the race, the same newspaper also gave the result of the race, and surprise, other names appear: Trintignant, 3rd (and Gordini didn't race), Flahaut (Simca Tank ex Fiat 508 Ballila transformed by Gordini), 10th and Boyer (Cisitalia), 11th (no it's not Loyer as Loyer was 9th)...

Christian Huet in his book about Gordini spoke about 5 Simca Gordini:
Wimille: T15 07GC #38
"Bira": T15 06GC #34
Scaron: T11 #36
Prince Igor (Troubetskoy): T11 02GC #22
Maurice Trintignant: sport TMM 01GCS #32.

Opposite to the strong Gordini team: ao 6 Cisitalia.

An other name not included in the list appears in the report of the race (by Huet): Bodet (Maserati) who caused a second start.

Like you, I'm not sure Castelbarco was at Reims !!!!

[alessandro silva]

Here is my list for the 1947 Coupe des Petites Cylindréess”.
Amilcar MC0: 48. Maurice Mestivier
Cisitalia D46: 16. Robert Manzon, 10. Raymond Sommer, 18. Roger Loyer, 20. Dorino Serafini, 24. Eugenio Minetti
Cisitalia D46 (Lucy O'Reilly Schell): 12. Harry Schell, 14. André Boyer (RES Raymond de Saugé).
ERA A R1A: 8 Fred Ashmore (RES Reg Parnell)
Fiat Spl: 44. Enzo Pinzero DNA, 46. Pietro Torelli DNA
Guerin-de Coucy: 30. Francis Guerin (de Coucy engine)
Lagonda Rapier Spl: 2. Ian Metcalfe
RM Spl (Simca 8 engine?) (Ecurie Verte): 50. Raoul Martin
Maserati 4CM: 52. Paul Bodet
MG: 26. Auguste Veuillet, 28. Peter Monkhouse (owner Hamish Weir),
Salmson: 4. Yves Giraud-Cabantous, 6. Jacques Boucard
Simca-Gordini 11 (Equipe Gordini): 22. Igor Troubetzkoy (on lease from works) 36. José Scaron
Simca Gordini MM (Equipe Gordini): 32. Maurice Trintignant (RES Amédée Gordini)
Simca Gordini 15 (on lease toWhite Mouse Garage): 34." B Bira
Simca-Gordini 15 (Equipe Gordini): 38. Jean-Pierre Wimille
Monopole-Simca 8 Spl (J. Hémard & J. de Montremy): 40. Jean de Montremy
FIAT 508-Gordini spl : 42. Pierre Flahaut

I think that Huet’s report is correct because there is a lot of concordant Gordini’s photographic evidence: Gordini trounced Cisitalia that day.
But the Cisitalias were seven:
- 2 from Schell
- 2 private for habitués Loyer, Manzon
- 1 Scuderia Ambrosiana for Minetti (the other Scuderia Ambrosiana car was racing in Forlì the same day, winning with Mosters). The second Ambrosiana car was driven by Lurani or Castelbarco at Caracalla, on June 5th. It can be conjectured that it was entered for Castelbarco at Reims, but showed up in Forlì.
- 1 probably private for Serafini (already seen at Caracalla)
- I could not trace Sommer’s Cisitalia: he used it at Angoulême, Reims, took it for practice in Albi, but, completely deceived, switched to Gordini for that race. My conjecture is that it was de Saugé’s car, the first one to come to France, late 46. In the while de Saugé used one of the Schell cars. I am pretty sure that the total of “French” Cisitalias in 1947 should be five.
Fezi or Fezzia was an Italian Cisitalia owner (very minor) of whom I had no records for Reims.


Results from Sheldon:

1. "B Bira" 26 laps in 1h29'20"4, 136.400 kmh
2. Scaron 1h29'20"6
3. Trintignant 1h30'00"8
4. Manzon 1h31'25"8
5. Schell 1h31'37"8
6. Monkhouse 25 laps
7. Veuillet 23 laps
8. de Montrémy 23 laps
9. Loyer 22 laps
10. Flahaut 21 laps
11. Metcalfe 20 laps

Boyer disqualified for outside assistance. Boyer is not a finisher also in the Cisitalia book; Metcalfe 11th also in John Eason Gibson, “Racing 1947”

ANOTHER QUESTION:

June 8th. Challenges AGACI at Monthléry.
1.1 s/c and 2L u/c class (?)
1. Bodet Maserati
2. Troubeztkoy Gordini T11 02GC
etc.
Do you know more?

[Marcor]

About the Challenge de l'AGACI, the number of the Simca of "Prince Igor" was 39. (source Christian Huet).

Also the first 2 of another class:
1- Varet Delage 3000
2- Mouche Talbot Lago SS #58.
(source Le Fanauto, Les Talbot Grand Prix, 1947).

About Reims, here's the result given by "Les Sports". I supposed they didn't know the disqualification of Boyer:
1- Bira Simca Gordini, 1h 29' 20" 4/10 (136.472 km/h), 26 laps
2- Scaron Simca Gordini, 1h 29' 20" 8/10
3- Trintignant Simca Gordini, 1h 30' 0" 8/10
4- Manzon Cisitalia, 1h 31' 24"8/10
5- Schell Cisitalia, 1h 32' 37" 9/10
6- Monkhouse MG, 1h 29' 26" 9/10, 25 laps
7- de Montrémy Simca Monopole, 1h 31' 1" 1/10, 23 laps
8- Veuillet MG, 1h 31' 4" 2/10, 23 laps
9- Loyer Cisitalia, 1h 30' 36" 6/10, 22 laps
10- Flahaut Simca, 1h 29' 38" 2/10, 21 laps
11- Boyer Cisitalia, 1h 33' 43" 4/10, 21 laps
12- Metcalfe Lagonda-Napier, 1h 29' 27" 6/10, 20 laps

FL- Monkhouse, lap 5, 3' 15" 6/10, 143.920 km/h

DNF- Sommer
DNF- Wimille (last lap)

Note the inversion between de Montrémy and Veuillet. Here's another source saying that the 2 MG were 6th and 7th.

According Classic car profiles, the MG Magnette K3, by F.Wilson McComb: "...Heaven only knows how the old Magnette survived the War, but it turned up in the hands of one Veuillet at the 1945 Bois de Boulogne Meeting, taking second place to a 6C Maserati, and scored a similar success at the Bois in 1946. In 1947, Veuillet took it to Rheims, where he finished seventh behind Peter Monkhouse, who was driving a much-modified version of the car in which Frankie Tayler was killed before the 1934 Manning Beg. The two venerable Magnettes also appeared at the 1947 Lyons Meeting, where Monkhouse finished fifth but Veuillet.."

Alssandro, are you interested by the same kind of rough results of

The newspaper sometimes surprised me, publishing for example the best lap of each driver of the Coupe de Paris (Longchamps) and his two qualifying heats, the Coupe de l'AGACI (again) and the Coupe du Conseil Municipal. Most of the time it was not so accurate as data...

[Roger Clark]

12- Metcalfe Lagonda-Napier, 1h 29' 27" 6/10, 20 laps

That got me really worried for a minute, but it was a Lagonda Rapier.

The book "Reims, Vitesse Champagne et Passion" has the same result as Les Sports

[Marcor]

Back to Castelbarco and the thirties...

I've seen Count Luigi Castelbarco (Maserati) in the entry list of the 1932 Pontedecimo-Giovi Mountain climb races. (source Les sports, Belgian newspaper, June 17 or 18th, 1932).

Next week I hope to have the time to consult the year 1933...

I would also ask a question. Were there two Italian drivers with the name Ghersi ? I've met P. Ghersi and M. Ghersi.
P. = Pietro, what M. did stand for ? What's the link between them (brother ?)

[David McKinney]

Pietro and Mario Ghersi were brothers, probably better known as racing motorcyclists than drivers

[ReWind]

I am confident that I found the Castelbarco brothers here. Under A1/B2/C3/D2/E2/ you will find this:

F1. Conte Don [b]Luigi[/b] (* Milano 5-4-1909 + ?)

						  = Nervi 2-3-1932 Luciana Peperle degli Azzoni (* Trieste 6-8-1910)

 

						 G1. Conte Don Aldrigo (* Milano 24-12-1932)

								= Milano 15-6-1961 Maria Grazia Cavicchioli

						 G2. Conte Don Briano (* Milano 16-2-1936 + ?)

								= Cernobbio 6-6-1963 Marisa Pinto 

						 G3. Conte Don Federico (* Milano 28-2-1948).



F2. Conte Don [b]Carlo[/b] (* Milano 25-3-1911 + ivi 14-5-1988)

						 = Imbersago 9-8-1943 Nobile Anna Lombardo, 

						   figlia del Nobile Carlo Francesco 8° Barone di

						   San Chirico e di Ernesta Cesari (v.)

 

						 G1. Conte Don Niccolò (* Merate 30-10-1944 + 11-1959).

						 G2. Donna Rezzonica (* Milano 26-8-1953).

It seems they had a younger sister who in 1924 died at the early age of 10 years.

[Peter Morley]

We occasionally raced Luigi Castelbarco (I don't recall him being bothered about the Count title) in historics in the 80's.
He was running one of the little supercharged Amilcars (C6 or C0 probably).
Both driver and car were in very original and surprisingly good condition.

There should be some photos & references in the Rob Box "Historic Car racing" books from that period.

[humphries]

This thread is new to me and I can offer the following gleaned from Auto Italiana.

Carlo Castelbarco partnered Cortese in the 1933 Mille Miglia in which they finished 2nd, solely as a passenger in his own new, but scorched, car.

It was Carlo, not Luigi, who was 3rd in heat one of the C. Alessandria (30/4) and 8th in the final in his Alfa Romeo.

At Parma-Poggio di Berceto Carlo was 5th overall in the 2300 Monza whilst Luigi was 11th overall in his 1500 Maserati. So Carlo and Luigi did race against each other at least once.

At Colli Torinesi hillclimb (11/6) Carlo was 1st overall and 1st in the "Corridori dilettanti" category.

At the Pontedecimo-Giovi climb Carlo (18/6) was 8th overall, 1st in the oltre 1500 cmc sport class.

In Sardinia Carlo was 2nd overall and 2nd in his class in the C.Sassari (29/6)

A 3rd overall (1st in class) was achieved at Varese-Campo dei Fiori (9/7) plus fastest "dilettanti".

The Principe di Piemonte at Avellina (6/8) for sports cars proved a great disappointment as Carlo was in 4th place overall when he ran out of fuel just a kilometre from the finishing line. At one stage in the race he had been in second place.

Another retirement followed at Pescara when he had mechanical trouble in the Targa Abruzzo (13/8) early on.

Finally came the calamitous day (10/9) at Monza. Carlo was 6th in the Italian Grand Prix in the morning and then in the afternoon he was in the 2nd heat for the Monza GP. Following behind Borzacchini and Campari he was involved in their accident and was lucky to escape serious injury when his car slewed to a stop on its side. Thus he was brutally exposed to the reality of racing in those days. It appears he retired forthwith, after a brief but promising dabble in motor-racing.

Carlo may have raced elsewhere but I can find no more references.

Good find ReWind.

John

[corsaresearch]

Some extra information:

Luigi Castelbarco, born Luigi Rezzonico Pindemonte, conte di Castelbarco (Milano) on April 5, 1909
Died in Milano on February 2nd, 1994

National champion in 1931 and 1933 in Corsa 1500

[Vitesse2]

So who was Francesco Castelbarco?

On page 193 of Lurani's "Racing Round the World" (Chapter 22 dealing with the Circuit of Varese) he tells us that his pit was being run by Giuseppe Casazza, accompanied by Facetti and one Francesco Castelbarco. As far as I can see, that name occurs only this once in the book and, as is made clear above, Lurani is otherwise meticulous in differentiating between Carlo and Luigi.

Perhaps someone with the original Italian edition could cross-check this in case it's an error in the translation?

[Vitesse2]

I found a Francesco Castelbarco on the site ReWind mentioned:

F4. Conte Don Francesco (* Milano 30-3-1900 + ?), Nobile di Urbino.



										 = Firenze 9-6-1923 Maria Graziella Masetti di Bagnano, figlia del Conte Piero e di Virginia 



											Bentivoglio Middleton (* Vinci 23-2-1901 + Milano 7-12-1988).

Looks about the right age, but I'm not familiar enough with how genealogical tables are put together (or Italian!) to work out his relationship to Luigi and Carlo.

[iicarJohn]

Although I've not made a specific study of the Castelbarco racing family, here is what has made it into my computer taken from notes I took from photocopies made about 1987 of a 1933 R.A.C.I. publication held at the Museo dell'Automobile "Carlo Biscaretti di Ruffia" in Torino:

In 1933 (and many other years) it was necessary to have an entrants license ("licenza concorrente") to enter a car in a race and a racing license ("licenza corridore", if I remember correctly) to actually drive in a race.

Conte Luigi Castelbarco had entrant license #27 and racing license #34. His address was in Milano at Via Marsala, 3

Carlo Castelbarco Pindemonte had entrant license #35 and racing license #43. His address was also in Milano at Via Marsala, 3

Because it has happened that some drivers used address "drops" located at their racing club, I checked the other Milano addresses in the listing and none of the other racers licensed early in 1933 shared the address so there is a good chance that "via Marsala, 3" was their actual address.

[Graham Gauld]

Count Castelbarco along with Benelli of motorcycle fame and Beretta of gun fame, had a plan to build a small saloon car in 1948. They built three prototypes of the BBC, as it was called, and one is in the Beretta gun factory in northern Italy near Lake Garda.

[Vitesse2]

Just to clarify, Graham - that's presumably Luigi?

John pointed out that Carlo and Luigi raced each other at least once. Both were in the entry list for the 1500cc Coppa Acerbo Junior in 1935 in Maserati 4CMs by Scuderia Brianza, numbered 20 (Luigi) and 21 (Carlo). Luigi raced and retired, Carlo was a DNA.

[Graham Gauld]

I assume it is Luigi but I shall try and contact Ugo Beretta and see if he can confirm his uncle's partner was, in fact Luigi Castelbarco.

[iicarJohn]

A 1947 compendium of Italian racing that was published by the Milan A.C. shows that Castelbarco (without specifying which one, unfortunately) received ten points in the "Corsa 1500 senza compressore" racing category. This would argue that "Castelbarco" did start the race in the Cisitalia D46 at Caracalla. Piero Dusio was clearly using some old-time racers and "names" in an attempt to promote his mono-marque formula. Lurani was writing about various events in this time period, had raced a D46 in Egypt and even covered the Egyptian adventure in promotional prose for Auto Italiana magazine. I can see no reason why his identity would have been hidden at Caracalla. And, he was given no points in the Italian championship for 1947. Unless there was something "politic" at play here, I would defer to the simple likelihood that Lurani did not race in Castelbarco's place.

I am still searching for the reference that I hope I copied that gives the actual point structure. This is still subject to confirmation, but I believe I recall that a driver earned ten points simply for starting, ten points for gpv (giro piu veloce = fastest lap) and 100 points for winning. Then there was 50 points for second, 40 for third and so on. Again, this is still to be confirmed. I have not yet tried going through the events of 1947 to see if this points "structure" would have resulted in the tallies shown but will do so if I fail to turn up the actual rules.

In any case, here is what I've entered thus far based on what was reported by the A.C. Milano publication as well as elsewhere.

The Italians had a Championship during 1947 that was not shared with the rest of the world. Auto Italiana 15.12.46 p29 published one rule for the category, “Classe fino a 1500cmc senza compressore: Carburante libero” (free fuel formula)

The Autombile Club di Milano published a 1947 review called, “Le Corse Automobilistiche del 1947” that covered a good bit of Italian racing for 1947 both in Italy and abroad. It has results of the championship called “Campionato Italiano conduttori categoria corsa fino a 1500 senza compressore”.
1. Taruffi 360 points (Caracalla 120, Vercelli 120, Venezia 120)
2. Grolla 260 points
3. Mosters 220 points
4. Porrino 220 points
5. Bonetto 130 points
6. (tie) Bracco & Villoresi 80 points each
8. (tie) Bernabei & Nuvolari & Pariani & Tullini 60 points each
12. (tie) Carmine & Cortese 30 points each
14. Minetti 20 points
15. (tie) Malaguti & Malucchi & Serafini & Ascari & Castelbarco & Guido Barbieri & Fezia, 10 points each

After the 1934 accident at Monza, it is clear that Carlo's racing dropped off. Did it stop? I don't think so. There was some mention already in this thread, I believe, of a later 1934 appearance in an 8C that might be either Carlo or Luigi in Carlo's car.

I believe it was Carlo who drove or co-drove in an Alfa Romeo 6C2300 on the MM of 1938.

There is the Caracalla 1947 that might be either Carlo or Luigi. Or, could it be the next generation?

"Carlo Castelbarco Rezzonico" raced in the 1950's. He co-drove in a Crepaldi Panhard berlinetta Allemano (475808) on the MM of 1952 and probably had the same car on the '52 Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomiti. For the MM of 1953 he was in another Crepaldi-Dyna-Panhard special (306529) this time with a coupe body that was rather like an Alfa Romeo "Disco". He used Nello Sassoli's Fiat 8V Zagato (000069) on the Mille Miglia of 1955 and the car was re-registered to Castelbarco at that time, most likely for liability reasons in case something went wrong, but he finished 13th overall.

[ERault]

So who was Francesco Castelbarco?

On page 193 of Lurani's "Racing Round the World" (Chapter 22 dealing with the Circuit of Varese) he tells us that his pit was being run by Giuseppe Casazza, accompanied by Facetti and one Francesco Castelbarco. As far as I can see, that name occurs only this once in the book and, as is made clear above, Lurani is otherwise meticulous in differentiating between Carlo and Luigi.

Perhaps someone with the original Italian edition could cross-check this in case it's an error in the translation?

I have found Francesco Castelbarco in a period report for the 1933 Parma-Poggio di Berceto hillclimb. He drove his Alfa Romeo to 5th in the over 2000cc sportscar class. Carlo Castelbarco was 3rd in the same class with his 8C 2300 Alfa (maybe they shared the same car) and Luigi Castelbarco raced a Maserati in the under 1500cc racing car class.