37 replies to this topic

[tombe]

In a small piece on the first Ensign F3 in 'Autosport' a couple of weeks back, it is stated that it was the first non-F1 single-seater with side-mounted radiators.
IIRC I've read somewhere that the first incarnation of the (unsuccessful) Gemini Mk.IV Formula Junior from 1962 had "a pointed nose and the coolers in two packets, one each side of the body".
I've never seen a picture of this car. Can someone please tell me if this car ever existed.

[Vitesse2]

Tom: the Mk IV definitely existed. There is a picture of it in Hodges' A-Z of Formula Racing Cars. A strange beast!

The radiators appear to be well forward, flanking the driver's legs, just behind the front suspension.

There was also a MkIVA in 1963 and one ran in F2 in 1964.

[fines]

To my knowledge, the first single-seater with side-mounted radiators was the Marchese Special, driven to 7th at the 1938 Indy 500 by Harry McQuinn. It was built by the Marchese brothers (Carl and Tom) in Milwaukee, WI. Don't always believe what they write in Autosport...

[tombe]

Thank you, guys.

There's been a lot of references to the Hodges book recently. It seems like I have to get me one myself.
Can somebody give me advice on which edition is the best one, the 1990 one or the one published this year.
(My main interest is in the cars from the 50's and 60's, in case something is omitted from the later edition.)

[Rainer Nyberg]

A poor image, I admit, but I guess it still shows the general layout of the '62 Gemini MkIV.

[Roger Clark]

The Gemini also had in-board brakes front and rear, with some sort of anti-locking device at the front.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by tombe
Thank you, guys.

There's been a lot of references to the Hodges book recently. It seems like I have to get me one myself.
Can somebody give me advice on which edition is the best one, the 1990 one or the one published this year.
(My main interest is in the cars from the 50's and 60's, in case something is omitted from the later edition.)

There are two Hodges A-Z books, Tom ...

The first was the A-Z of Formula Racing Cars, published by Bay View in 1990. This covers F1, F2, F3 and FJ cars from 1945-89, with some coverage of AusNF2, F Atlantic/Pacific/B and South African National F1. Only a very few F5000 cars are included, usually things like the Connew, which was originally an F1 car (allegedly!!! ). Although the original hardback edition is out of print and sells for about £40, there was a paperback reprint in the original large format, with all the illustrations, which Chaters currently list at just £4.99 (originally £17.99). Buy six!!

The second book, published this year by Crowood, is the A-Z of Grand Prix Cars. As the title suggests, it covers only F1 and Grand Prix racing cars from 1906-2000. Even obscure and unraced cars like the Dome, the Berta, the BS and the Gleed are included. Well worth £25! There is inevitably some overlap between the two, and in some cases the text is identical, but I suspect that is partly due to the fact that Hodges died before completing it.

[Wolf]

At that price, I'd like to get one... Vitesse2- would You care to help me get one (again ;))? Or shall we this time get someone else to trouble himself with me?

[Vitesse2]

No problem, my friend - I have an account with Chaters! I even still have your address - just PM me if you want to go ahead ....

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The Gemini also had in-board brakes front and rear, with some sort of anti-locking device at the front.

Is this the car we are talking about? ( I don't have an FJ book) This is Peter Procter testing the Chequered flag car( at Silverstone or Goodwood?)The drive shafts for the inboard front brakes are clearly visible.



Peter didn't have a good word to say about the car, high speed stability being the main problem.
I'm sure I have a photo of one of these taken at a recent historic meet somewhere. I think the inboard brakes had gone....

[Cirrus]

Barry B took a very nice picture of a Mk4 at Stoneleigh this year (post 66)

http://forums.atlasf...y=&pagenumber=2

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Cirrus
Barry B took a very nice picture of a Mk4 at Stoneleigh this year (post 66)

http://forums.atlasf...y=&pagenumber=2

So he did, and the drive shafts still in place!

[willga]

Ollie Crossthwaite of Crossthwaite and Gardner races it at the more prestigeous FJ races.

[Bonde]

Slightly OT, but the Benz Tropfenwagens that finished 4th and 5th in the European Grand Prix at Monza in 1923 had mid/rear mounted radiators - and, of course, the engine [in its proper place] behind the driver(s).

And the pioneering Renault GP cars, among others, had the radiator in the scuttle behind the front-mounted engine.

BTW, anyone got a pic of the Marchese Special?

[Pedro 917]

Here's a picture of the Gemini Mk IV taken in the carpark at Spa 2003.
It was one of the support races for the Classic 6 hours.
The car was driven by Oliver Crosthwaite :

[Bonde]

A few details apart, the Gemini Mk IV could easily appear to be an early eigties Formula Ford car - it really did look that far ahead-of-its-time, IMO.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Bonde
A few details apart, the Gemini Mk IV could easily appear to be an early eigties Formula Ford car - it really did look that far ahead-of-its-time, IMO.

Agreed

[fines]

Originally posted by Bonde
BTW, anyone got a pic of the Marchese Special?

© Artemis Images, www.artemisimages.com

[Bonde]

[David Birchall]

The Gemini MK1V was featured in 'Sports Cars Illustrated" in 1962-I forget which issue but it included a cutaway drawing and full technical details. Great car! At least on paper. I know of one in California-used to have a BMC 1100 with a Jack Knight gear box IIRC. Should have won everything.... I owned a front engined Gemini FJ for a while and was very impressed with the standard of design and construction. One day at Westwood a guy walked up to me and said he used to be a director of Chequered Flag, makers of the Geminis, and that they lost money on most of them because of their high standards-I could believe it! I also owned a front engined Elva for a while and that was a totally different beast-everything was as cheap as possible but it worked! The Gemini MK1V is pictured in 'How To Make Your Car Handle" a great book by Fred Puhn on pages 80 and 103 (modified)
David B

[macoran]

Hi Tombe,
I think I should still have an article on the Gemini from a US magazine called Sports Car Graphic.
If I remember correctly the article also had a two-page spread cutaway drawing.I'll have to dig it out of my attic so bear with me for while.

[David Beard]

Studying the Gemini Mk4 raced at Goodwood this year by Oliver Crosthwaite, I was surprised to find how compact the side radiator arrangement is, and how uncomfortable it looks for the driver. His legs must get cooked.



The inboard front brakes seem to utilise Mini driveshafts together with Mini front uprights. The latter look quite heavy. I wonder how they compare with the usual A & A upright….they can’t have helped in the attempted reduction in unsprung weight.

[275 GTB-4]

In 1983, Stephen Burnett from VARAC had a MKIV rear engine

[layabout]

The Mk 4 did use inner & outer shafts from the Mini, but as to the weight of the uprights, the opposite is true. The Gemini Mk 4 had magnesium cast front uprights with internal bores to suit the Mini wheel bearings. They would have been much lighter than the A & A.

Here are some photos of the car that clearly show the radiator arrangement, inboard brakes, etc. Also, there's one of the team transporter with Team Manager George Henrotte in the foreground.

Brands Hatch 1963:

Brands Hatch 1963 with team driver Howden Ganley:

Nurburgring 1963

On the way to Goodwood, 1963

Edited by layabout, 19 March 2013 - 16:58.

[Cirrus]

Here's a rather splendid picture of Syd Fox in a Gemini Mk4A at Crystal Palace in September '63. The car was entered by George Henrotte. The sister car of Roy Pike won the race.

 

[pete53]

Fab photos from Layabout and Cirrus. It was a striking looking car. I was at the Palace in September 1963 when Roy Pike beat Brian Hart's Lotus by a fraction of a second in the Formula Junior race after a thrilling race long tussle. I also remember seeing one of these cars on display in a garage at the bottom of Hayes (in Kent) High Street). Am I right in thinking this was George Henrotte's garage?

[David McKinney]

Was Henrotte's business Campbell's Garage?

[Cirrus]

I don't know much about George Henrotte other than Syd Fox spoke very highly of him and he obviously had a good opinion of Syd in return. There was a "Look at Life" feature about the UK cottage motor racing industry and the permanently-behatted GH was shown building the Piper F3 car. There was a short in-car sequence of Syd driving the Piper at Brands. Maybe I'll fish the DVD out later this evening and have a look to see if there are any further clues.

[bradbury west]

Was Henrotte's business Campbell's Garage?

Yes, according to a quick google search, a link to The Ultimate Car Page site showing that the garage's sign showed a Scottish bagpiper, hence the name for the Piper marque which he formed.
Roger Lund

[David McKinney]

I was basing my memory on an advertisement in a NZ magazine 48 years ago
https://www.dropbox....v/campbells.jpg
when Ross Greenville was, I believe, a partner in the business. Certainly on the staff

But don't ask me what I had for dinner last night...

[layabout]

Here's Pike & his mechanics a few days after the win at Crystal Palace. They're in the workshop located at Brian Whitehouse's garage. The local newspaper wanted a ' local team wins ' type story  & their photographer took this.

 

[raceannouncer2003]

 

Here's Pike & his mechanics a few days after the win at Crystal Palace. They're in the workshop located at Brian Whitehouse's garage. The local newspaper wanted a ' local team wins ' type story  & their photographer took this.

 

 

 

Is that Howden Ganley in the middle?

 

Vince H.

[Patrick Fletcher]

Sure looks like Howden Ganley

 

PF

[gnat101]

Yes, its Howden with John. Sorry cant recall Johns surname. I have color  foto of Team taken at Crystal Palace after win, will post asap when i can find it !

 

Paul L

[layabout]

Here's a photo courtesy of Paul Layzell. Paul doesn't recall who the Gemini mechanic is, but thinks the locale is Rheims. Other input suggests the Nurburgring. Any opinions/guesses?

 

 

forum image hosting

[StanBarrett2]

Hi Tombe,
I think I should still have an article on the Gemini from a US magazine called Sports Car Graphic.
If I remember correctly the article also had a two-page spread cutaway drawing.I'll have to dig it out of my attic so bear with me for while.

Well,.............that was a long wait !

But here is the Gemini cutaway from the Sports Car Graphic article.

 

cheers !! macoran

 

p.s. If you have any good photos, I wouldn't mind a p.m.

[layabout]

The Gemini Mk IV has always interested me because it was as advanced a car for its era as it could be---& in a FJr at that. Inboard front brakes, side radiators, unusual (for its time) aerodynamics, etc., etc. In

his book "The Road to Monaco" Howden Ganley has some good anecdotes about his time as the team driver---promoted from mechanic to second driver to lead drive in a few weeks time--and

he devotes a full chapter to the Gemini period. Also, there are several photographs in the book of the inboard front brake shafts. The car obviously had quite a 'brains trust' of design input.

 

Since some of my photos are MIA (though I can't tell which ones), I have re-posted them here. I hope they're correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StanBarrett2]

 

The Gemini Mk IV has always interested me because it was as advanced a car for its era as it could be---& in a FJr at that. Inboard front brakes, side radiators, unusual (for its time) aerodynamics, etc., etc. In

his book "The Road to Monaco" Howden Ganley has some good anecdotes about his time as the team driver---promoted from mechanic to second driver to lead drive in a few weeks time--and

he devotes a full chapter to the Gemini period. Also, there are several photographs in the book of the inboard front brake shafts. The car obviously had quite a 'brains trust' of design input.

 

Since some of my photos are MIA (though I can't tell which ones), I have re-posted them here. I hope they're correct.

 

 

I completely agree, Lotus 72 level engineering a decade earlier.

 

Thanks for the photos !!

macoran

Edited by StanBarrett2, 14 May 2016 - 00:30.