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#51 paulsenna1

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 21:46

I need your advice ... I am in two minds whether to see this film.

So, should I go and see the film?


Yes. Well worth seeing whatever you think of Senna.


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#52 RA Historian

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 01:17

I do sympathize to a degree with Canon14's dilemma. Senna was a fantastic driver, but such things as ditching his wife because she did not fit in with his career plans and that first swerve on Prost lowered my opinion of him greatly. Then, when he committed what arguably is the worst on track move of all time, deliberately crashing into Prost in Japan in 1990, well, I lost any remaining respect for him then.

#53 DN5

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 12:22

The prospect of seeing in-car footage on a big screen and sound system win me over though.

Geoff

#54 Canon14

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 12:31

I do sympathize to a degree with Canon14's dilemma. Senna was a fantastic driver, but such things as ditching his wife because she did not fit in with his career plans and that first swerve on Prost lowered my opinion of him greatly. Then, when he committed what arguably is the worst on track move of all time, deliberately crashing into Prost in Japan in 1990, well, I lost any remaining respect for him then.



Respect - that sums it up nicely. You have to respect your heroes and I cannot respect Senna, not least because of his lack of respect for his fellow competitors.

Steven

#55 cpbell

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 12:39

I do sympathize to a degree with Canon14's dilemma. Senna was a fantastic driver, but such things as ditching his wife because she did not fit in with his career plans and that first swerve on Prost lowered my opinion of him greatly. Then, when he committed what arguably is the worst on track move of all time, deliberately crashing into Prost in Japan in 1990, well, I lost any remaining respect for him then.


Let's not forget that Prost turned in very early to the chicane at Suzuka in 1989, though. He wasn't entirely blameless.

#56 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 07:51

When a driver has an overtaking mentailty of "I'm going through and if you don't yield we'll crash" eventually he will find the guy who calls his bluff.

#57 cpbell

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 09:24

When a driver has an overtaking mentailty of "I'm going through and if you don't yield we'll crash" eventually he will find the guy who calls his bluff.


Agreed.


#58 Aero Z-28

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 03:59

I do sympathize to a degree with Canon14's dilemma. Senna was a fantastic driver, but such things as ditching his wife because she did not fit in with his career plans and that first swerve on Prost lowered my opinion of him greatly. Then, when he committed what arguably is the worst on track move of all time, deliberately crashing into Prost in Japan in 1990, well, I lost any remaining respect for him then.


RA Historian, I am in complete agreement with you.


#59 Formula Once

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 12:14

...things as ditching his wife because she did not fit in with his career plans ...


There was a bit more to them splitting up of course... Plus if we are going to judge drivers on how they treated their wives or girlfriends (or both...), one could start taking down just about any wall of fame.


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#60 RA Historian

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 14:13

There was a bit more to them splitting up of course... Plus if we are going to judge drivers on how they treated their wives or girlfriends (or both...), one could start taking down just about any wall of fame.

I am sure that there was. But from what I read at the time I recall it being presented as a rather callous move because his career plan did not include her presence. But, as you say, there likely is more than what came out at the time. Having said that, it still strikes me as being a bit crass.
Tom

#61 stuartbrs

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 15:22

I thought this thread was about the movie... and yet, still, after "eleventy billion" threads on Senna/Prost.. the thread turns into...

I really am looking forward to seeing the film though.

#62 chris shaw

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 08:25

I saw many of Senna's races including Donington '93 and aware of his brilliance, ruthlessness and intensity. I went to see movie at Nottingham Broadway yesterday and it is extremely good. The Ballestre drivers meeting footages worth seeing on their own, a real eye opener 'behind the scenes'.

Make the effort to see it - it will stay with you long after the credits roll.

Chris

#63 cheapracer

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 10:30

There was a bit more to them splitting up of course... Plus if we are going to judge drivers on how they treated their wives or girlfriends (or both...), one could start taking down just about any wall of fame.


Obviously the determintion to make it in F1 needs you to be reasonably selfish and singularly target fixed, never a good start for any relationship and when you do make it you have stunning young hotties throwing themselves at you - I'm surprised any marriage lasts in F1.


The movie was nothing special, I was wondering at the end if I actually watched "the movie" some were raving on about, all I got out of it was just another documentry covering the same old ground.

#64 Paul Hurdsfield

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 15:39

I've just got back from watching the film, yes we (The Wife and I) both enjoyed it. The insight to the drivers briefings was very interesting.
I personally thought it was overly sentimental in the aftermath of the San Marino weekend, but I would reccomend any motorsport fan to go and watch it :up:
A very pleasant way to spend a rainy Sunday afternoon, and the bonus was, I used my bus pass, and also got a concessionary ticket, so it only cost me 4 quid :up:
But I had to pay full price for the Wife, that must be one of the downsides of cradlesnatching :lol:

Edited by Paul Hurdsfield, 12 June 2011 - 15:40.


#65 DN5

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:16

Also saw the film yesterday. I would give it a B+

This is due to the fact I didn't get the on-car effect I expected and I wanted the film to show more about the crux of the Senna Prost fall out.

Overall, I didn't get the wow factor at the cinema I was expecting and I suspect that the DVD experience maybe as good (and cheaper than a central london cinema ticket).

Geoff

#66 john aston

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:15

Excellent film - really emphasised Senna's almost messianic quality. Not enough on track stuff but some of non track stuff rivetting- not the Senna messing about in boats in Brazil footage but briefings etc. Horrific shots of Ratzenberger and Donnelly shunts.Main omission was a Roebuck or equivalent commenting that gifted and special as Senna was he invented dirty tactics in F1 and we are still reaping that legacy. Arent we Michael ? Would have liked some f3 and FF to complement the karting non F1 material.

Edited by john aston, 14 June 2011 - 06:16.


#67 arttidesco

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:02

Main omission was a Roebuck or equivalent commenting that gifted and special as Senna was he invented dirty tactics in F1 and we are still reaping that legacy. Arent we Michael ? Would have liked some f3 and FF to complement the karting non F1 material.


I get the feeling the US TV reporter was filling in the role as the 'voice of authority' which may have significantly contributed to 'Senna' the film winning an award at the Sundance Film festival in a way that dear old Mr Roebuck probably would not.

#68 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 19:25

Just goin in to watch now, guessing there isn't a twist?

#69 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 23:28

Some really poignant and eery moments in the movie made it quite compelling. Anyone notice the carnival queen stopped wishing Senna good years after 93? A lot of footage I hadnt seen of Senna and his family talking of his own mortality.
Two things I wasn't aware of:

-The switching of the grid in Suzuka in 89. Was this done after Senna claimed pole?
-What a vindictive arrogant c#nt Balestre was!

Really enjoyed the way it only used archive footage rather than the tried and tested talking head format, really brought the past alive.

#70 fbarrett

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:13

Wish someone would make a good movie about Prost.

Frank

#71 cheapracer

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 06:30

Wish someone would make a good movie about Prost.

Frank


I think that would be more interesting especially done as a dramatised movie with actors showing his ups and downs within the teams.

We all talk about Senna's driving skills and less than perfect tactics on track but there's not much after that whereas Prost, Lauda, Hill, Jone's and a few others have far more story depth ....


#72 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:15

The switching of the grid in Suzuka in 89. Was this done after Senna claimed pole?

I remember all the hoo-ha in 1990 when Senna tried unsuccessfully to switch the pole to the outside. I hadn't realised there had been something similar in 1989.

#73 paulsenna1

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:57

I think that would be more interesting especially done as a dramatised movie with actors showing his ups and downs within the teams.

We all talk about Senna's driving skills and less than perfect tactics on track but there's not much after that whereas Prost, Lauda, Hill, Jone's and a few others have far more story depth ....


Superb apostrophe there!

#74 arttidesco

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:20

I am glad 'Senna' the movie did not go down the dramatised movie with actors route.

There was no need for it, Senna's whole F1 career was played out in front of the camera's, the dramatised movie route would only have lead to a host of errors I and possibly others would have enjoyed jumping on.

The way this documentary was done Senna speaks for himself and everyone can make up their own mind, and speaking personally I made up my own mind about Senna the driver before he reached F1.

@tenmantaylor yes I did notice the New Years best wishes stopped at '93, a good start for an episode of the twiglet zone.

#75 Giraffe

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:16

-What a vindictive arrogant c#nt Balestre was!


Quelle surprise!?!? He was French....................


#76 RA Historian

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:06

-What a vindictive arrogant c#nt Balestre was!



Quelle surprise!?!? He was French....................

The only reason he looks good to a very small degree today is Max Mosley...

Tom

#77 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:42

I remember all the hoo-ha in 1990 when Senna tried unsuccessfully to switch the pole to the outside. I hadn't realised there had been something similar in 1989.


Sorry, it probably was '90, those years just seem quite indistinguishable in the film, the cars looked so similar in that period.

I see that he tried, they showed him talk the steward. Whatever happened Senna was right, it's a huge disadvantage to start on the inside on a SF straight where the corners entering and leaving it are both right handers. What the film made me think was that it was changed that weekend to be that way thus disadvantaging Senna purposely.

#78 MichaelJP

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:50

Loved this documentary, thought it flowed very well, and as much as many of us would have liked to see more of his FF and F3 days, it couldn't have been much longer in this format.

I too always felt ambivalent towards Senna, his sometimes underhand tactics and his tedious cod-philosophy, but loved watching him drive.

The only grating factor to me was that sometimes in the on-board camera sections the sound was either out of sync or from a completely different car. This isn't really that hard to get right, so am surprised it got through the editing stage.


#79 man

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 18:46

I thought it was a B+ film. One has to take into consideration this film is intended for the masses. For those disappointed with the lack of detail, yuo should be more than aware there are ample sources for you to find out what you want from whom you want. The aim is to make money, and by all accounts they have succeded. On top of that, I think the film more than satisifed die hard motor racing enthusiasts (the realistic ones at least).

I am of the belief all sporting realted films are doomed from the off, so I was pleasantly surprised by the Senna film. It captured the main events and themes in a general but quite informative and entertaining way.

I think the Berger years could have been included because the Austrian did have a significant impact on Senna.

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#80 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 22:31

What the film made me think was that it was changed that weekend to be that way thus disadvantaging Senna purposely.

Nothing was changed. The pole for the GP at Suzuka had always been on the inside, and in 1989 this had helped Prost to beat Senna away from the start. After qualifying in 1990 Senna asked that the pole be switched to the outside, citing previous races where the driver on pole had been allowed to switch position. The request was turned down. Senna always maintained that JMB had influenced the organisers to turn down the request to give the advantage to Prost. The next year (1991) pole had been moved to the outside. However, as Senna had only qualified second he still started from the dirty side of the track ...

#81 arttidesco

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:42

The next year (1991) pole had been moved to the outside. However, as Senna had only qualified second he still started from the dirty side of the track ...


Makes one wonder what was going on in the mind of the big man above in whom Ayrton showed so much faith ?

#82 Giraffe

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 22:37

I had an interesting conversation with Sid Taylor about Ayrton Senna this afternoon as Sid ran him at Macao in 1983, the first year of F3 there and a race he won. Sid's overriding memories of Ayrton were the £450 phonebill that he ran up that weekend at which Teddy Yip (who was picking up the tab) hit the roof, and the fact that (allegedly, I am obliged to add) he was batting for the other team at that time. It's the first time I've ever heard that allegation, but Sid seemed surprised that I was unaware of it. As Sid was (in)famous for looking after his drivers (it was one of the fringe benifits of driving for him), I have to take him at his word. Somehow, it didn't come to me as a complete shock if indeed what Sid told me was true.

Edited by Giraffe, 18 June 2011 - 06:08.


#83 mfd

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 23:54

BBC2 The Review Show tonight discussed - go to 19 minutes in. Interesting insight as none of the reviewers were F1 fans

http://www.bbc.co.uk...how_17_06_2011/

Edited by mfd, 18 June 2011 - 02:24.


#84 man

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 15:39

I had an interesting conversation with Sid Taylor about Ayrton Senna this afternoon as Sid ran him at Macao in 1983, the first year of F3 there and a race he won. Sid's overriding memories of Ayrton were the £450 phonebill that he ran up that weekend at which Teddy Yip (who was picking up the tab) hit the roof, and the fact that (allegedly, I am obliged to add) he was batting for the other team at that time. It's the first time I've ever heard that allegation, but Sid seemed surprised that I was unaware of it. As Sid was (in)famous for looking after his drivers (it was one of the fringe benifits of driving for him), I have to take him at his word. Somehow, it didn't come to me as a complete shock if indeed what Sid told me was true.


Piquet seemed to think so.

#85 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 21:14

I took myself off to see the film today.

I am not sure that 'enjoyed' is quite the right word. It was an excellent production, that's for sure, but I came away feeling rather sad.

Not just because of what happened at the end - I sort of guessed what was coming..... But I was left with two strong feelings. One was that Ayrton should never have driven that day. We have heard all sorts of statements, through the years, saying that he wasn't himself that weekend, even before Rubens' and Roland's accidents. Easy to have 20/20 hindsight, but now I know this was true. He was clearly deeply troubled and as one of the Brazilian commentators remarked, he never saw a smile for the whole of the weekend. Even in his car before the start he looked as though, had somebody hauled him out of the cockpit, he really wouldn't have minded at all.

But even more than all that, I came away feeling that the whole era of F.1 that saw Senna's rise and eventual end was a disturbed, acrimonious and, well, just a very sad period in racing history. Give me the current 'circus' any day.

However, you MUST go and see this film. You owe it to yourself.

#86 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:45

Surprisingly, the film is not (yet) being shown in the Miami area where there are many Brazilians and many more Senna fans.

Jack.

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 22 June 2011 - 02:56.


#87 paulsenna1

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:00

Surprisingly, the film is not (yet) being shown in the Miami area where there are many Brazilians and many more Senna fans.

Jack.


August 12 is the USA release date.

#88 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:40

August 12 is the USA release date.





Thank you!

Jack.

#89 Jeff Weinbren

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 04:59

Are there sub-titles during the Portuguese interviews etc.??
Thanks,
Jeff.


#90 alansart

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 06:18

Are there sub-titles during the Portuguese interviews etc.??
Thanks,
Jeff.


Yes

#91 alansart

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 06:41

I took myself off to see the film today.

I am not sure that 'enjoyed' is quite the right word. It was an excellent production, that's for sure, but I came away feeling rather sad.

Not just because of what happened at the end - I sort of guessed what was coming..... But I was left with two strong feelings. One was that Ayrton should never have driven that day. We have heard all sorts of statements, through the years, saying that he wasn't himself that weekend, even before Rubens' and Roland's accidents. Easy to have 20/20 hindsight, but now I know this was true. He was clearly deeply troubled and as one of the Brazilian commentators remarked, he never saw a smile for the whole of the weekend. Even in his car before the start he looked as though, had somebody hauled him out of the cockpit, he really wouldn't have minded at all.

But even more than all that, I came away feeling that the whole era of F.1 that saw Senna's rise and eventual end was a disturbed, acrimonious and, well, just a very sad period in racing history. Give me the current 'circus' any day.

However, you MUST go and see this film. You owe it to yourself.


I went to see the film last night and came away feeling the same way, as did my daughter who was only 7 when Ayrton died. She knew racing was more dangerous in those days, but hadn't quite realised how bad the Imola weekend was.

An excellent film, although I would have liked to have seen some of what happened between Karting an F1, even if it was just a few minutes. The dominant seasons in FF1600 & FF2000 plus the dramatic F3 year against Martin Brundle were part of the Senna legend.


#92 James Page

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 13:52

I see that he tried, they showed him talk the steward.


Unless they'd spliced together different bits of film, though, that conversation wasn't from Suzuka - it looked far more like Hockenheim.

I must admit to being tremendously disappointed with the film, and that's speaking as somebody for whom Senna was a boyhood hero.


#93 markpde

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:48

Main omission was a Roebuck or equivalent commenting that gifted and special as Senna was he invented dirty tactics in F1 - and we are still reaping that legacy...

This was posted 27th June on the Motor Sport website - Nigel Roebuck's view (I think you'll need to register, if you haven't already, to view it)
http://www.motorspor...-play-on-prost/
The first comment under Nigel's piece, by Stan Kirk, a marshal, is quite shocking, but you have to respect it - he was there, and had a particular point of view.

I haven't seen the movie yet, just the preview dvd with came free with Top Gear magazine (bought the magazine for the preview - no way I'd have bought it otherwise). However I've just re-read Christopher Hilton's book, 'As Time Goes By', published after Senna's death, and something I'd forgotten about was Senna's inability to recall his 'banzai' pole position qualifying lap at Adelaide in the JPS Lotus, even though he had perfect recall of every other one that year. There's footage of that lap in the preview (and presumably the movie), and I think you can see why - you get the feeling it was 'beyond conscious'. Maybe he had an ear infection, or something, that weekend (can't quite remember) so that might have had something to do with it - his judgement was wayward in the race - but there was something different going on there.



#94 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:58

I must admit to being tremendously disappointed with the film,


Can you say why, James?

#95 delta44

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 17:21

I can agree with you James.I had been looking forward to seeing the film and felt let down.Apart from some of the footage with the F1 drivers briefing I had seen most of the clips over the years.When I knew the film was being made I honestly thought it was going to be a full on life story.

#96 Bill Becketts

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:33

I too saw the film last week with my 13 year old Son.

I followed Ayrton throughout his career and like others here, I worked "Trackside" at Silverstone and elswhere throughout that time. I also went to many Grands Prix abroad (OK...."F1" if you want to call it that now).

Considering that the people behind this film were going for general release and therefore needed the permission of the Senna Family and access to Bernie's TV archive to make it both creditable and viable, I found the use of footage from the time, uninterupted by talking heads or the use of a commentator both powerful and impressive.

I would have loved to see the FF, FF200 and F3 Years between 1981 and 1983 too, but having seen the film, I can see why it would not have worked.

Yes, there is a clear "Goody and Baddy" element to the film, but this adds to the drama and my son loved to boo the baddy when he thought it necessary. Before the Film, the only thing he know about Senna was that he was the hero of Lewis Hamilton when he was growing up, but now he wants to know more..... I even caught him making Senna graphics to put on his XBox Forza Motorsport 3 cars last weekend :) .

I will say that I was , and remain now, a big fan of Ayrton Senna. A unique racing driver in my opinion. A complex individual certainly, but more than that, I will just say..

Please go and see the Film

#97 rallen

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:07

I saw this a couple of weeks ago with a bunch of friends - some of who actually dislike F1. Everyone loved it - it is a fantastic film really impressive and I urge anyone who actually likes motor racing to go and watch it, don't worry if you were not a fan of Senna at the time (I wasn't)

It is beautifully edited, footage is amazing - most I have not scene before and it gives you a good idea from a drivers point of view of what it was like back then, the footage of the drivers briefings is worth going for alone.

Two points;

1. Does JMB remind you of Sepp Blatter? and also,
2. At Imola in 1994 it was widely reported that Senna when he was sat in the cockpit said ': 'I'd like to welcome back my friend Alain - we all miss you.' was this exchange with Prost who was there for Elf ever caught on film- i imagine it was considering Senna was addressing Prost directly. Has this footage ever surfaced, you would have thought it would have been ideal for the film and Prost himself has confirmed the exchange - I just think it would be really nice to see it. Anyone any info on this?

#98 CSquared

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 23:16

2. At Imola in 1994 it was widely reported that Senna when he was sat in the cockpit said ': 'I'd like to welcome back my friend Alain - we all miss you.' was this exchange with Prost who was there for Elf ever caught on film- i imagine it was considering Senna was addressing Prost directly. Has this footage ever surfaced, you would have thought it would have been ideal for the film and Prost himself has confirmed the exchange - I just think it would be really nice to see it. Anyone any info on this?



#99 James Page

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 08:06

Can you say why, James?


If you'll forgive the plug, my full review of it is here: http://www.classicsm...na-film-review/

There were lots of little things that rankled, Barry, but the main issue I had was that it set up Senna as some sort of saint, and Prost as the baddie who ganged up with Balestre. It heavily distorts their relationship.

It would also have been nice to hear from more drivers, rather than the same American journalist over and over again, whose name temporarily escapes me.

Having seen it, I was very surprised that the specialist press raved about it so much.


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#100 rallen

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 08:17


Wow thanks CSquared, really appreciate that - so it does exist?! this really should have made it into the film.