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#101 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 08:52

Thank you, James. Your review was interesting and I cannot find any fault with it.

However, I think maybe we are looking at the film from different perspectives. If one looks at details, then yes, there were serious faults/omissions. But as a documentary of the F.1 career of a great driver, I thought it portrayed him very well. I never felt the anti-Prost scenario was as strong as you obviously did and Balestre WAS very anti-Senna, no doubt about that.

Much much more could have been included, and the film could have lasted three hours, but overall I thought it was a moving glimpse into a complex and dedicated man.

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#102 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:28

Saw it last night, and couldn't fault it.

I didn't think it was overtly anti-Prost - there were probably as many Prost criticisms of Senna and there were Senna criticisms of Prost - and Balestre could make a fool of himself without any editorial slant at all.

The ESPN man whose voice appeared more than most clearly was heavily pro-Senna, most notably when commentating on the second Suzuka collision - 'Senna's been hit'(!) But Richard Williams was more objective, and Senna hardly came across as a saint. Indeed, even allowing for knowing the outcome of his story, I couldn't help but think he seemed less and less happy as time passed and success mounted.

I found I preferred the lower mounting of on-board cameras from that era to now. It gives much more a driver's eye perspective. And I much prefer the wider front track of '80s and '90s GP cars to today's cars.

One quote I find myself thinking about this morning is Frank Williams', in the wake of Aida '94. Senna wanted him to to lodge an objection against Benetton for continuing to run outlawed driver aids on Schumacher's car, 'but we didn't'. How might Imola have turned out if they had?

That's the thing which will always trouble me about Senna's death. He crashed trying to stay ahead of a car he thought illegal.

#103 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:53

I think that over eggs the pudding slightly.

#104 James Page

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:21

The footage from Imola is certainly very moving.

Senna seemed terribly pre-occupied. I found the exchanges between himself, Adrian Newey and David Brown interesting. His feedback on what the car was doing seemed far more vague and monosyllabic than other times I've seen behind-the-scenes debriefs.

Maybe it was just a natural reaction to everything that was going on that weekend. He put it on pole, after all, and was leading at the time of his accident...

#105 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:48

He put it on pole, after all, and was leading at the time of his accident...

That's the thing about those early '94 races. He, along with everyone else, must have thought himself a shoe-in for many race wins and another title at Williams, but Schumacher had won at Rio and Aida, and, as the de-bref with Newey and Brown shows, the FW16 was a handful. It was Senna who put it on pole for all three of those races; the car wasn't doing what a Williams ought to. Even before the Barrichello and Ratzenberger accidents, the pressure on him must have been immense. As the Autosport cover story of the previous Thursday put it, Senna: can he take the heat?

#106 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 17:21

The American ESPN reporter was John Bisignano. I recall him racing in the UK in FF & F3 in the early '70s.

#107 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 19:00

Despite all the good things said about this movie in this thread, and the obviously good photography and interesting footage, I simply cannot bring myself to watch a film depicting someone as a hero who had such a detrimental effect on my personal enjoyment of watching F1 back in the day.

#108 RA Historian

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 19:30

I believe that I agree with Michael. Among other instances, Suzuka 1990 forever soured me on Senna.
Tom

#109 E1pix

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 20:39

Among other instances, Suzuka 1990 forever soured me on Senna.

Me, too. I finally saw some mellowing in early 1994 and was changing my mind.... but we know what happened next.

#110 mfd

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 20:51

Despite all the good things said about this movie in this thread, and the obviously good photography and interesting footage, I simply cannot bring myself to watch a film depicting someone as a hero who had such a detrimental effect on my personal enjoyment of watching F1 back in the day.

Michael, I'm losing count of the number of people who've seen the film & urged me to go along. Even citing the unseen driver briefings as examples, I still find myself less drawn to want to see it. Having lived through it & been involved in a small way, I can't get over how the a story has been retold from a particular point of view & is now seen as something in a "hero & villain" format.

#111 TennisUK

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 20:55

Me, too. I finally saw some mellowing in early 1994 and was changing my mind.... but we know what happened next.

An excellent phrase - 'mellowing'. I honestly do not think this is me putting my rose tinted glasses on, but pre-season 1994 he seemed like a different person - far more relaxed with himself and the world.

#112 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 21:05

Michael, Tom, E1, mfd

He's no hero of mine. I hated what he did at Suzuka the second time around, and hated Dennis embracing him in the pit lane afterwards. But that didn't stop me being absorbed by the movie. I honestly don't believe Prost is portrayed as a cartoon villain. They even play part of the Jackie Stewart interview that followed Suzuka - 'If you count up all the previous great champions and the number of times they made contact with other cars, you in the last 36 or 48 months have been in contact with more cars than all of them in total.'

All I'm saying is, you don't have to like the guy to like the movie.

Rgds

Paul

#113 E1pix

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 22:06

An excellent phrase - 'mellowing'. I honestly do not think this is me putting my rose tinted glasses on, but pre-season 1994 he seemed like a different person - far more relaxed with himself and the world.

Glad others noticed that. I distinctly recall him being interviewed at the first or second race and saying to my wife, "He looks much happier, more peaceful, something has changed." We liked him finally — though always respected his great talent — then we lost him soon after.

Michael, Tom, E1, mfd

He's no hero of mine. I hated what he did at Suzuka the second time around, and hated Dennis embracing him in the pit lane afterwards. But that didn't stop me being absorbed by the movie.

All I'm saying is, you don't have to like the guy to like the movie.

Absolutely, I was screaming like a livid madman after the Suzuka incident....

But, I will enjoy the film regardless of Suzuka or anything else. It would be foolish to deny his brilliance on track.





#114 Bernard

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 22:35

Has the movie been edited down to 106 minutes because there is a copy on the net which is 2hrs 40 mins long.....

#115 mfd

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 22:49

Has the movie been edited down to 106 minutes because there is a copy on the net which is 2hrs 40 mins long.....

Have you found the version where the Director & Producer talk through the entire film?

#116 BullHead

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 23:23

An excellent phrase - 'mellowing'. I honestly do not think this is me putting my rose tinted glasses on, but pre-season 1994 he seemed like a different person - far more relaxed with himself and the world.


Physically too, he seemed to age massively looking at his face...

#117 Gold

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:03

Has the movie been edited down to 106 minutes because there is a copy on the net which is 2hrs 40 mins long.....



That version contains no new footage over the standard 104m version.

It just contains interviews to the camera which slows the whole thing down.

Anyhow the actual Senna movie thread is here:

http://forums.autosp...w...=132677&hl=

#118 colinsays

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:39

Having seen the Senna film, I have to say that:

-Very few images about Senna´s years at Team Lotus. They show only his first year at Lotus winning Portuguesse GP.
-The movie said that Ayrton brake later than anyone and show some overtakings to porve that.....hummmm.....I disagree....just watch this Senna vs Piquet video from 1986 Season (Hungary GP) .They forgot to include that images :rotfl:

-After watching the film I simphatize more with Prost (more than its day ,in spite I was never a Prost fan)

Anyway the film is nice to see but I don´t consider it as a good film or a definitive documentary about Senna

#119 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:51

Anyhow the actual Senna movie thread is here:

http://forums.autosp...w...=132677&hl=

What? The same subject? Discussed on more than one thread? On Autosport's Bulletin Board?

Are there enough angiotensin receptor blockers to go round?

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#120 Gold

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:53

What? The same subject? Discussed on more than one thread? On Autosport's Bulletin Board?

Are there enough angiotensin receptor blockers to go round?


Yeah, they merged it.. So why not reply there.

#121 mfd

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 14:42

Yeah, they merged it.. So why not reply there.

You're assuming folk on here want to go to the RC Forum :p

#122 Cargo

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 18:33

Don't think I've ever read such a contemptible piece of journalism in my life.. I know that F1 has never been big in the USA, but the jackass who wrote this set of words sets a new low record in lowness ....

Ayrton Senna cavorted with models and poured Champagne all over his head. My interest in watching men drive machines in ovals is limited, and in this documentary the title character mostly comes across as an uninteresting dope. Sure, he played a dangerous game, but ultimately it's a meaningless one. The lowliest private first class delivering mail to fellow troops in Afghanistan is risking his life, too -- but in the cause of something noble. Senna's game was providing cheap thrills for himself and the sweaty masses.


http://www.nypost.co...i...s&FEEDNAME=

#123 cpbell

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 21:07

Don't think I've ever read such a contemptible piece of journalism in my life.. I know that F1 has never been big in the USA, but the jackass who wrote this set of words sets a new low record in lowness ....



http://www.nypost.co...i...s&FEEDNAME=



That bloke is supposed to be a film reviewer? :rolleyes:

See Mark Kermode for a non-motorsport fan's professional, nuanced review.

#124 john ruston

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 08:38

It doesn't matter.

It's a US film critic.Is he he supposed to know what it's about?

Not sure to many people in States will understand what is a superb ,well crafted,piece of film and entertainment.

In general few in US have enquiring minds so Talledaga Nights is so much more suited to the their market.



#125 xj13v12

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:45

It doesn't matter.

It's a US film critic.Is he he supposed to know what it's about?

Not sure to many people in States will understand what is a superb ,well crafted,piece of film and entertainment.

In general few in US have enquiring minds so Talledaga Nights is so much more suited to the their market.

Every review here has been at least 4 stars

#126 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 11:32

Roger Ebert didn't...


I haven't read the full review (not being interested in it, or the movie) but that quoted paragraph isn't too far out. There's nothing noble about driving a racing car or being a professional sportsman. Dying while doing it seems the definition of senseless.

And like Grand Prix it's vastly overrated as a 'film'. People like the subject matter, a lot, but as a body of work it is poor.

#127 john ruston

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:41

Ross,As a film it probably is.I am not clever enough to know.

What I do know is that it entertained me and the two non petrol heads that joined me !

First time I had been to a Picture House for years.

#128 plutoman

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 13:11

Interesting that a film critic should belittle a sportsman's contribution as 'meaningless'. Surely those who direct, write and act in films purely for our entertainment are no less meaningless. Where does that leave those who merely write about such things?

#129 David M. Kane

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 16:30

Ross you add new meaning to term "Captain Bringdown".

#130 mfd

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 17:14

Ross you add new meaning to term "Captain Bringdown".

I've never read anything positive on these forums.

#131 Formula Once

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 18:09

I found it dissapointing and ultimately even irritating to have been looking primarily at three or four journalists/TV reporters talk. Why? So many people that did somehow matter in Senna's life, some maybe even for a while, should have been interviewed instead, the Parrilla brothers, Terry Fullerton, Dennis Rushen, Ralph Firman, Dick Bennetts, Martin Brundle, Peter Gethin, Nigel Mansell, Pat Symonds, Gerard Ducarouge, Bernard Dudot, Mr. Sakurai, Giorgio Ascanelli, Gerhard Berger, etc., etc. They and many, many more could all have said so much more interesting about the man then a few journos who were just standing by, not racing/living with him.

And how the film handles the rivalry with Prost is just sad... Estoril 1988, Imola 1989; how it all started hardly explained nor is how Senna's reputation had developed up until then. Prost derserves much better than being portrayed the way he is now. People will still be watching this movie in 20, 30 years time and think this is how it was.

Never mind the raving reviews, there is a lot wrong with this movie.

#132 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 18:28

Ross you add new meaning to term "Captain Bringdown".


I have a ways to go to make even a visible dent on the PR around the Senna movie...

#133 mfd

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 19:13

I found it dissapointing and ultimately even irritating to have been looking primarily at three or four journalists/TV reporters talk. Why? So many people that did somehow matter in Senna's life, some maybe even for a while, should have been interviewed instead, the Parrilla brothers, Terry Fullerton, Dennis Rushen, Ralph Firman, Dick Bennetts, Martin Brundle, Peter Gethin, Nigel Mansell, Pat Symonds, Gerard Ducarouge, Bernard Dudot, Mr. Sakurai, Giorgio Ascanelli, Gerhard Berger, etc., etc. They and many, many more could all have said so much more interesting about the man then a few journos who were just standing by, not racing/living with him.

And how the film handles the rivalry with Prost is just sad... Estoril 1988, Imola 1989; how it all started hardly explained nor is how Senna's reputation had developed up until then. Prost derserves much better than being portrayed the way he is now. People will still be watching this movie in 20, 30 years time and think this is how it was.

Never mind the raving reviews, there is a lot wrong with this movie.


Thank you! This is (for once) a validated criticism

Edited by mfd, 21 August 2011 - 19:13.


#134 cheapracer

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 20:13

I have a ways to go to make even a visible dent on the PR around the Senna movie...


:lol: yup, no hope. Noticing this thread again I actually had to find the film again and again make sure it's the one that is being hyped as there's other long doco's on him - unfortunately it is.

One of the other doco's is far better as it's a solid race driver doco (family life included), I just can't figure out what they were trying to achieve with this one, some of the suggestions in posts here such as his early career would have vastly improved it - or shown him worse for what he did on track, surely they didn't actively chase Brundle for comments....


I found it dissapointing and ultimately even irritating to have been looking primarily at three or four journalists/TV reporters talk.


BTW, who was that irritating sooky white haired American reporter who went on and on ...?

Edited by cheapracer, 21 August 2011 - 20:15.


#135 mfd

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 20:38

I have a ways to go to make even a visible dent on the PR around the Senna movie...

This might be interesting or not...two years ago I was able to pass a copy of Truth in 24 (the story of Audi's attack on Le Mans in 2008) to a friend. This year the same friend & his young Son, regulars at the TT in the Isle of Man, went to see TT in 3D film at a cinema, shortly followed by the Senna film and both came to the same conclusion, the Audi doc was undoubtedly the best.

#136 Formula Once

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:55

BTW, who was that irritating sooky white haired American reporter who went on and on ...?


I dont know and I dont care, but he may win an Oscar for Best Special Effects

#137 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 15:34

Maybe somebody will do a movie about Prost...and no irritating sooky white-haired Americans!



#138 Giraffe

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 15:49

When is the DVD due out here in the UK?

#139 paulsenna1

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 15:52

October 10th...
Senna on DVD


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#140 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 18:19

I've just watched that Suzuka 1990 briefing for the first time. Now I know where tantrum throwing racing drivers come from. Jesus wept...

#141 john ruston

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:16

It's entertainment and made money.That was reason it was made.Not to please the historians as they don't make much of an audience.

Can't see an Audi story putting bums on seats no matter however good it is.

Pleased Ross is watching parts.

Tony,I will donate a DSD to you.

#142 Giraffe

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:18

Tony,I will donate a DSD to you.


Never seen or heard of one of those John?!?! :confused:

#143 275 GTB-4

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:25

I've just watched that Suzuka 1990 briefing for the first time. Now I know where tantrum throwing racing drivers come from. Jesus wept...


Easy for you to say from your armchair....they were the ones putting their lives on the line each race weekend for not huge rewards :wave:

#144 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:53

Senna's salary would be impressive even now, and the only thing at risk in that meeting was his ego.

#145 mfd

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 12:41

It's entertainment and made money.That was reason it was made.Not to please the historians as they don't make much of an audience.
Can't see an Audi story putting bums on seats no matter however good it is.

Audi USA motives for commissioning Truth in 24 are unclear, there was no input from Germany at all. It is available as a free HD download from the US i store for US account holders & you can buy the dvd (possibly even a DSD :D) from Audi USA dealers for ten dollars.

Audi gave the task to members of the Hollywood Film Academy, who despite limited knowledge of motorsport, have managed to show the characters involved & the dedication, difficulties & team work that go towards successfully attacking the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Audi seem not remotely interested in bums on seats, as it's only been seen selectively in cinemas since release early in 2009, but the guys at Motor Sport (Roebuck etc.) who surprisingly (or F1 obsessed) have only recently discovered it, two years late, have now organised a public viewing at Audi West London in October

I'm sure you can guess I'm a fan of the work :up:

Edited by mfd, 24 August 2011 - 12:43.


#146 Formula Once

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 18:39

This might be interesting or not...two years ago I was able to pass a copy of Truth in 24 (the story of Audi's attack on Le Mans in 2008) to a friend. This year the same friend & his young Son, regulars at the TT in the Isle of Man, went to see TT in 3D film at a cinema, shortly followed by the Senna film and both came to the same conclusion, the Audi doc was undoubtedly the best.


Truth in 24 is as good as it gets

#147 David Birchall

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 18:10

The Senna movie has just been discussed on CBC radio here in Vancouver. Now, you have to understand that the CBC is about three football fields (whatever they are) to the left of the BBC. Left wing, feminist wankers about describes most of the CBC reporters. So to have it mentioned at all was amazing and they went to the trouble of interviewing a guy in London. The film is on "limited release" in Canada so I think I will take it in. It may not be as good as the wonderful Woody Allen movie I saw last night; set in Paris with nostalgia as it's central theme but I am willing to risk it if John Ruston thinks it is OK...

#148 cheapracer

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 18:23

Easy for you to say from your armchair....they were the ones putting their lives on the line each race weekend for not huge rewards :wave:


I would rate the individual's tantrums to the individual's level of salary back then.


Truth in 24 is as good as it gets


I often search over at Stagevu.com for these types of docos .....  ;)


#149 hipperson

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 21:46

Went two weeks ago to watch in small cinema in Saffron Walden.
Showing for two nights...sell out each night.

I loved it, my wife loved it, my daughters 22 & 13 loved it, my son 10 loved it.

To me that is all that matters. :wave:

#150 PCC

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 22:21

Left wing, feminist wankers about describes most of the CBC reporters.

And most of its listeners, I believe. For the rest, there's plenty of children's radio elsewhere.