Jump to content


Photo

Senna movie


  • Please log in to reply
298 replies to this topic

#251 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,175 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 28 April 2012 - 13:05

Fair enough Steve, you have unique insight on that archive. Shame its contents aren't seen more often.


I sometimes wonder ho much of FOM's archive will just vanish to the back of dusty shelves (not that Bernie would accept dust settling on his shelves!!), as so little is correctly logged. It's more than just a shame, it criminal!

I suspect to use "pre edited" foot, meant that it worked out cheaper, as FOM's charges aren't known for being at the lower end! Perhaps I am being a little unfair on the editors of Senna, and I accept I have been spoilt working with some of the very best. I used to do the Rueters edit after each Grand Prix, and thought I was doing ok, until one day one of THE editors within FOM sat with me and pointed out how he would have done it, and why. It certainly is a talent. I suspect the modern world of Avid and Final Cut-Pro have made it easy for people with a little talent to step further up the ladder in editing. Gone are the days of counting frames per second, cutting and splicing the film while logging the 24ths of a second now need to fill later, in Avid, you drop the shot in and hit the "make it fit" button!!

For all that, I'd rather have a film like Senna as it is, than not at all.

Advertisement

#252 TheWilliamzer

TheWilliamzer
  • Member

  • 689 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 28 April 2012 - 13:48

I think the version with interviews was made to give some balance to the movie, especially with Prost. He looks so evil in the theater version! :p

#253 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 57,311 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 28 April 2012 - 14:15

I thought the editing was bad from a narrative perspective. It's a very uneven telling of the 'Senna Story' even when you know a lot of the details.



#254 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,789 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:43

Am I the only one who actually thought this film was underwhelming?

#255 Gabrci

Gabrci
  • Member

  • 439 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:59

I think you missed the point, no offence.


No, I didn't. 99% of the people who watch this film though have never heard of Terry Fullerton and as the film ends the thought in their mind will not be "Senna loved pure driving, pure racing" but "who the hell is Terry Fullerton?".

#256 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,280 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:39

Am I the only one who actually thought this film was underwhelming?


Obviously not, if you read this thread you will notice that many people seem to agree with you.

#257 xj13v12

xj13v12
  • Member

  • 264 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:11

No, I didn't. 99% of the people who watch this film though have never heard of Terry Fullerton and as the film ends the thought in their mind will not be "Senna loved pure driving, pure racing" but "who the hell is Terry Fullerton?".


Which proves you missed the point entirely.
The point is that at heart Senna loved to race - "pure racing" as he called it. It is an entirely appropriate end to the film showing one of greatest having respect for an unknown who gave him some of his most memorable race battles. Perhaps by that time that meant as much to him as the championships? Obviously he had no idea he was about to die yet he had reached a time when he was able to reflect on his career and sift out what was important to him. He was ashamed of his actions to win one title and the film did a good job of showing that and balancing it with his more honorable position deep at heart.
OK not a great film but better than I expected and not so harsh on Prost as I had been led to believe. Showing Prost as a pall bearer showed that there had been some closure between them too. The film makers were reasonably even handed in that regard.

#258 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,054 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 29 April 2012 - 17:01

Which proves you missed the point entirely.
The point is that at heart Senna loved to race - "pure racing" as he called it. It is an entirely appropriate end to the film showing one of greatest having respect for an unknown who gave him some of his most memorable race battles. Perhaps by that time that meant as much to him as the championships? Obviously he had no idea he was about to die yet he had reached a time when he was able to reflect on his career and sift out what was important to him. He was ashamed of his actions to win one title and the film did a good job of showing that and balancing it with his more honorable position deep at heart.
OK not a great film but better than I expected and not so harsh on Prost as I had been led to believe. Showing Prost as a pall bearer showed that there had been some closure between them too. The film makers were reasonably even handed in that regard.

I don't recall this in the film? Where did he say so?

#259 xj13v12

xj13v12
  • Member

  • 264 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 29 April 2012 - 20:58

I don't recall this in the film? Where did he say so?



Have a look at him post race when he tries to avoid the press, will not look at people and is obviously very uneasy at what he has just done. Compare that with Schumacher who actually seemed proud of his tactics. Both may have felt justified but Senna undoubtedly regretted it whereas Schumacher never showed genuine contrition, in fact used the same tactics repeatedly. The chop at Barrichello being the most dangerous and deliberate move yet he was reluctant to offer any apology. Senna's body language was like a child caught cheating, head down avoiding people's eyes. I think that moment saw a change in him and is why the ending of the film is poignant. He loved racing yet had committed some acts that were alien to him at heart in order to win at all costs. Unfortunately he is remembered in part for that. F1 still bares the scars thanks to Schumacher taking that mentality to an unthunkable level.

Advertisement

#260 WhatOh

WhatOh
  • Member

  • 95 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 29 April 2012 - 21:35

Have a look at him post race when he tries to avoid the press, will not look at people and is obviously very uneasy at what he has just done. Compare that with Schumacher who actually seemed proud of his tactics. Both may have felt justified but Senna undoubtedly regretted it whereas Schumacher never showed genuine contrition, in fact used the same tactics repeatedly. The chop at Barrichello being the most dangerous and deliberate move yet he was reluctant to offer any apology. Senna's body language was like a child caught cheating, head down avoiding people's eyes. I think that moment saw a change in him and is why the ending of the film is poignant. He loved racing yet had committed some acts that were alien to him at heart in order to win at all costs. Unfortunately he is remembered in part for that. F1 still bares the scars thanks to Schumacher taking that mentality to an unthunkable level.


Did he ever actually apologise though?

#261 biercemountain

biercemountain
  • Member

  • 966 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 06 August 2012 - 13:10

I finally got a chance to see this movie. It came and went too fast in the theaters. Really good flick.

I found the on-board shots really interesting. They really gave you a sense of speed and how rough the ride was on those cars. Are today's cameras stabilized to minimize all the violent shaking or was it just a lot more physical to drive an F1 car back then?

#262 nmansellfan

nmansellfan
  • Member

  • 250 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 07 August 2012 - 14:43

A bit of both really I reckon, biercemountain. The cameras are a lot better today than they were 20+ years ago, but the cars were mainly more physical to drive - power steering was in it's infancy then (maybe Nigel Beresford can elaborate a bit more on that). The circuits today are billiard table smooth in comparison to that era too. If you watch some onboard F1 video from Mexico City in the early 90's, the drivers look like they needed arms like Popeye to steer around there - Michele Alboreto in the Footwork Arrows from '90 springs to mind that I remember watching at the time.

Edited by nmansellfan, 07 August 2012 - 14:43.


#263 biercemountain

biercemountain
  • Member

  • 966 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 07 August 2012 - 16:50

Thanks nmansellfan, the tracks did look a lot bumpier.

While I realize it's been debated ad nauseum, the onboard of Senna's accident as he proceeded through Tamburello looked to me like he was bottoming out. There were a series of darker patches along the curve that seemed to progressively upset the car more and more until he was clearly heading off track. Just my two cents.

#264 DogEarred

DogEarred
  • Member

  • 442 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:46

I finally got a chance to see this movie. It came and went too fast in the theaters. Really good flick.

I found the on-board shots really interesting. They really gave you a sense of speed and how rough the ride was on those cars. Are today's cameras stabilized to minimize all the violent shaking or was it just a lot more physical to drive an F1 car back then?



I was asked to mount cameras on a fast once and started to design cushioned mounts. The professional camera provider stopped me. He preferred solid mounts as he said the vibration is magnified by cushioning, causing 'blurring'.
F1 cameras are generally solid mounted too but such is the speed of development, I stand to be corrected/updated.

#265 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 2,213 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 08 December 2012 - 21:13

I have now seen the full movie on YouTube, though in Portuguese, but that didn't matter that much as half of it is English anyway, and I must say I was not impressed. Some of the footage was rare and interesting, it's true, but the editing was somewhat doubtful, to say the least - the producers clearly had a message they dearly wanted to bring across. Had to laugh out loud twice during the film; once at the pathetic way Senna's Mansell pantomime after the 1991 Brazilian GP was displayed - I'd forgotten all about it, but Ayrton was almost as good as Noige at it! :D Then, a short while later, Senna was rambling on about how Prost would always blame someone or something else if things didn't go his way - say what? Was that Senna talking about himself, with the name "Prost" somehow pasted in? :lol:

All in all, it was a pitiful attempt at deification.

#266 WhatOh

WhatOh
  • Member

  • 95 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:42

All in all, it was a pitiful attempt at deification.


When I first saw this film I thought it was amazing; now I would agree with you.

#267 Charles E Taylor

Charles E Taylor
  • Member

  • 174 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:22

When I first saw this film I thought it was amazing; now I would agree with you.



Perhaps a Compare and Contrast........Aproape de Limita

Here


Maybe the best attempt yet to reveal the true racer.




Charlie

#268 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 2,213 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 09 December 2012 - 19:18

Here


WOW! :eek:

What a great movie!!

Thanks for posting the link! Good thing there're subtitles, though... : :blush:

#269 Tony Matthews

Tony Matthews
  • Member

  • 17,499 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:52

Good thing there're subtitles, though... : :blush:

Ha! Even for a born English speaker, Michael!

#270 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,673 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 December 2012 - 18:28

Perhaps a Compare and Contrast........Aproape de Limita

Here


Maybe the best attempt yet to reveal the true racer.




Charlie


Saw this a couple of months ago, certainly made my hair stand on end :love:

#271 LittleChris

LittleChris
  • Member

  • 2,178 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 10 December 2012 - 21:56

The DVD of Closer to the Edge is available from £5.99 on Amazon. Worth also buying Rick Broadbents book " That Near Death Thing" to accompany it.

#272 JacnGille

JacnGille
  • Member

  • 1,600 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:48

WOW! :eek:

What a great movie!!

:up:

#273 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,887 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:58

WOW! :eek:


I really recommend you to watch this Michael & anyone else :D
One man's personal experience of last year's TT - what it's like to be there as a visitor as he along with many others goes to the Isle of Man on a bike. Nice editing & use of music where appropriate. The first minute is awesome :eek:



#274 Hamish Robson

Hamish Robson
  • Member

  • 347 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:25

There's a thread about TT - Closer to the Edge here:

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=147551

Those of you who haven't seen it are missing out. To have the TT on the big screen was, to use a current buzz-word, amazing.

#275 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,856 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:28

Enjoyable T.T. film, apart from the appallingly dreadful 'music'.

#276 np93

np93
  • Member

  • 86 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 24 December 2012 - 16:35

Sorry this a little late, but watching the film, on Senna's last lap at Imola, he is seen pushing the yellow button on the left hand side of the steering wheel into the braking areas of the corners which is the one that became infamous for demonstrating the flexibility of the steering wheel. I was wondering what the function of this was? It is said that the function of the button in 1993 was to adjust the active suspension and engine rev limit in order to aid overtaking, but this shouldn't have been possible in 1994.

#277 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 4,802 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 24 December 2012 - 20:51

Which proves you missed the point entirely.
The point is that at heart Senna loved to race - "pure racing" as he called it.

snip

He was ashamed of his actions to win one title and the film did a good job of showing that and balancing it with his more honorable position deep at heart.




Well, when I read what he said during the press conference of Suzuka 1991 (thus one year later) and the manner in how he siad all of that, I don't think he was ashamed about what he had done the year before anymore..... More the opposite....
(Read Autocourse 1991, Japanese GP chapter if you don't understand what I refer to)

henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 December 2012 - 20:51.


#278 Velocifer

Velocifer
  • Member

  • 736 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:26

Just saw it on TV and although the editing was brilliant in telling a story, it was a horrendous piece of propaganda..

I don't know if the TV version is the same as the movie, but when the whole thing starts with showing Prost as a non-racer (happy with 5th) and general sleaze (being lewd with ms Scott) and then continues to portray Senna from all the best angles it was just pathetic.

The only mitigating factor about it was that it didn't try to hide the fact of Senna winning a championship by cheating at Suzuka 90, although it did typically try to justify it.

Overall a very good watch, like I said marvelous picture editing and the captures themselves were good.

But what I don't understand is this incessant need to distort the truth for the sake of hero-worship which is then forced upon everybody (from childhood upward really). Why can't Senna and Prost just be as they were, warts and all? I just don't get how this formulaic movie format has a place in documentaries especially.

#279 275 GTB-4

275 GTB-4
  • Member

  • 6,945 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:39

Just saw it on TV and although the editing was brilliant in telling a story, it was a horrendous piece of propaganda..

I don't know if the TV version is the same as the movie, but when the whole thing starts with showing Prost as a non-racer (happy with 5th) and general sleaze (being lewd with ms Scott) and then continues to portray Senna from all the best angles it was just pathetic.

The only mitigating factor about it was that it didn't try to hide the fact of Senna winning a championship by cheating at Suzuka 90, although it did typically try to justify it.

Overall a very good watch, like I said marvelous picture editing and the captures themselves were good.

But what I don't understand is this incessant need to distort the truth for the sake of hero-worship which is then forced upon everybody (from childhood upward really). Why can't Senna and Prost just be as they were, warts and all? I just don't get how this formulaic movie format has a place in documentaries especially.

 

I have the movie on DVD and watched it peppered with adverts on telly recently....don't agree with very much you have said above...it is about Senna, that's its focus, I think it captures just how a brilliant drive became flawed eventually.

 

All his mistakes and errors of judgement were there to see...as was his incredible talent.

 

Not the greatest doco/drama ever made....but certainly a gripping story.



Advertisement

#280 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,054 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:22

A quick reminder for our British members that Senna is on ITV today (Friday) at 10.35



#281 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,196 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:41

A quick reminder for our British members that Senna is on ITV today (Friday) at 10.35

 

I recorded it months ago the first time it was on, it's still in the DVD memory, but I still haven't watched it, not sure if I'm ever going to.

 

However, I'd set the machine to record Sir Stirling retracing his epic 1955 Mille Miglia victory last Sunday, and was very disappointed when the race delays meant that it wasn't shown. I'm sure I've seen it before, but would have enjoyed watching it again. If BBC2 ever manage to fit it back into their schedules, I'd very much appreciate a reminder from an alert TNF member, a lot more interesting than Cash in the Attic etc.



#282 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 3,465 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:18

I would advise people to track down the extended version. It is included on the Blu Ray. I am not sure if it is included on the DVD. It gives Prost the right to reply, so it is much more balanced than the Cinema/TV version.


Edited by sennafan24, 11 July 2014 - 11:19.


#283 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,196 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:36

If the "much more balanced" version ever comes on TV I'll record that, and I might even watch it some time, but I've decided to delete the first version unwatched.



#284 Alan Baker

Alan Baker
  • Member

  • 74 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:43

I recorded it months ago the first time it was on, it's still in the DVD memory, but I still haven't watched it, not sure if I'm ever going to.

 

However, I'd set the machine to record Sir Stirling retracing his epic 1955 Mille Miglia victory last Sunday, and was very disappointed when the race delays meant that it wasn't shown. I'm sure I've seen it before, but would have enjoyed watching it again. If BBC2 ever manage to fit it back into their schedules, I'd very much appreciate a reminder from an alert TNF member, a lot more interesting than Cash in the Attic etc.

The Stirling/Patrick Stewart programme was shown on BBC2 on Sunday. The tennis on BBC1 overran and they filled in on BBC2 by showing the Moss doc later than planned.



#285 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,196 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:56

The Stirling/Patrick Stewart programme was shown on BBC2 on Sunday. The tennis on BBC1 overran and they filled in on BBC2 by showing the Moss doc later than planned.

 

To be watched by almost no-one in all probability, wonder if we'll ever be given another opportunity?



#286 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 3,465 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 11 July 2014 - 12:14

http://www.bbc.co.uk...1-stirling-moss

 

The Stirling Moss documentary is on Iplayer for the next 2 days 

 

Seems it was first shown in December 2012



#287 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,175 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:49

A bit down the road, but this explains a lot, even Alain thought it wasn't that good, especially at representing the truth........

 



#288 Muskrat

Muskrat
  • Member

  • 43 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 14 August 2014 - 14:01

Utterly HATED this film.

 

The makers were total moron's. A one side endless dig at Prost. All the other big players of the Era, were barely even mentioned, (Mansell, Piquet, Rosberg, etc).

 

Utter Pants.

 

Rush was 10x better and giggle to boot.



#289 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,673 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 August 2014 - 14:31

Alain thought it wasn't that good, especially at representing the truth........

 

Without wishing in any way to be seen as getting too provocative the only truths are inalienable facts, which might have left us looking at Ayrton's results sheets on the big screen for 90 mins :wave:



#290 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,175 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 14 August 2014 - 15:04

I'll adjust that, "the truth of the situation" :up:



#291 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 57,311 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 17 August 2014 - 14:30


The makers were total moron's. A one side endless dig at Prost. All the other big players of the Era, were barely even mentioned, (Mansell, Piquet, Rosberg, etc).

 

 

I was struck by the notable lack of non-Marlboro cars. The Lotus years were all but skipped over and Rothmans only makes an appearance because you have to show Imola, and a brief appearance of a Mansell car in the early 90s.



#292 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 4,770 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 18 August 2014 - 06:55

 

Rush was 10x better and giggle to boot.

 

:up:



#293 dolomite

dolomite
  • Member

  • 951 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:48

I was struck by the notable lack of non-Marlboro cars. The Lotus years were all but skipped over and Rothmans only makes an appearance because you have to show Imola, and a brief appearance of a Mansell car in the early 90s.


IIRC 1992/93 were skipped over in the film with a brief comment along the lines of "these championships don't count because Williams had the best car"

Edited by dolomite, 18 August 2014 - 11:56.


#294 Emery0323

Emery0323
  • Member

  • 232 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 18 August 2014 - 19:31

IIRC 1992/93 were skipped over in the film with a brief comment along the lines of "these championships don't count because Williams had the best car"

I thought that the way the film treated 1992-93 was perversely amusing - It was along the lines  "It was not fair, Wiliams built a better car!"  :rolleyes:

Hmmm,  I'm not saying Senna wasn't the best driver, but did it not occur to Senna's partisans that perhaps the McLaren-Honda package conferred at least some degree of advantage to Senna  during 1988-1991?



#295 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,887 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 August 2014 - 20:06

It's called re-inventing history. Be interesting to know if any of the team that put it together ever met Senna



#296 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,887 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 18 August 2014 - 20:15

Utterly HATED this film.

 

The makers were total moron's. 

 

Moron's what?   ;)



#297 garagetinkerer

garagetinkerer
  • Member

  • 2,622 posts
  • Joined: October 13

Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:15

Utterly HATED this film.

 

The makers were total moron's. A one side endless dig at Prost. All the other big players of the Era, were barely even mentioned, (Mansell, Piquet, Rosberg, etc).

 

Utter Pants.

 

Rush was 10x better and giggle to boot.

I watched Senna with hope to understand the enigma... the man that was behind the mystique. I thought it will be a better glimpse at someone who was inside the helmet. Senna was a complex character, and as such this movie is more of a disservice to him, than anything else. Nevermind, how one sided the film was about Prost.

 

Is there a thread about '1.' Somehow, the narrative runs mostly around British drivers, but a much more tolerable film i thought.

___________________________________

 

@Sennafan24

 

Extras are not the film... most never saw it and there in lies the rub.

 

I guess i will request a blu ray from netflix. :up:



#298 stuartbrs

stuartbrs
  • Member

  • 686 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:18

I thought 1 was an excellent film.



#299 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 958 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:52

It's a film about Senna.

Obviously it's going to be biast towards Senna.

The makers were not such morons when they took the money to the bank.

Other film makers may make documentaries about other drivers but will they make main stream cinema ,doubt it.