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Senna movie


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#251 f1steveuk

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 13:05

Fair enough Steve, you have unique insight on that archive. Shame its contents aren't seen more often.


I sometimes wonder ho much of FOM's archive will just vanish to the back of dusty shelves (not that Bernie would accept dust settling on his shelves!!), as so little is correctly logged. It's more than just a shame, it criminal!

I suspect to use "pre edited" foot, meant that it worked out cheaper, as FOM's charges aren't known for being at the lower end! Perhaps I am being a little unfair on the editors of Senna, and I accept I have been spoilt working with some of the very best. I used to do the Rueters edit after each Grand Prix, and thought I was doing ok, until one day one of THE editors within FOM sat with me and pointed out how he would have done it, and why. It certainly is a talent. I suspect the modern world of Avid and Final Cut-Pro have made it easy for people with a little talent to step further up the ladder in editing. Gone are the days of counting frames per second, cutting and splicing the film while logging the 24ths of a second now need to fill later, in Avid, you drop the shot in and hit the "make it fit" button!!

For all that, I'd rather have a film like Senna as it is, than not at all.

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#252 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 13:48

I think the version with interviews was made to give some balance to the movie, especially with Prost. He looks so evil in the theater version! :p

#253 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 14:15

I thought the editing was bad from a narrative perspective. It's a very uneven telling of the 'Senna Story' even when you know a lot of the details.



#254 jj2728

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:43

Am I the only one who actually thought this film was underwhelming?

#255 Gabrci

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:59

I think you missed the point, no offence.


No, I didn't. 99% of the people who watch this film though have never heard of Terry Fullerton and as the film ends the thought in their mind will not be "Senna loved pure driving, pure racing" but "who the hell is Terry Fullerton?".

#256 Wander

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:39

Am I the only one who actually thought this film was underwhelming?


Obviously not, if you read this thread you will notice that many people seem to agree with you.

#257 xj13v12

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:11

No, I didn't. 99% of the people who watch this film though have never heard of Terry Fullerton and as the film ends the thought in their mind will not be "Senna loved pure driving, pure racing" but "who the hell is Terry Fullerton?".


Which proves you missed the point entirely.
The point is that at heart Senna loved to race - "pure racing" as he called it. It is an entirely appropriate end to the film showing one of greatest having respect for an unknown who gave him some of his most memorable race battles. Perhaps by that time that meant as much to him as the championships? Obviously he had no idea he was about to die yet he had reached a time when he was able to reflect on his career and sift out what was important to him. He was ashamed of his actions to win one title and the film did a good job of showing that and balancing it with his more honorable position deep at heart.
OK not a great film but better than I expected and not so harsh on Prost as I had been led to believe. Showing Prost as a pall bearer showed that there had been some closure between them too. The film makers were reasonably even handed in that regard.

#258 D-Type

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 17:01

Which proves you missed the point entirely.
The point is that at heart Senna loved to race - "pure racing" as he called it. It is an entirely appropriate end to the film showing one of greatest having respect for an unknown who gave him some of his most memorable race battles. Perhaps by that time that meant as much to him as the championships? Obviously he had no idea he was about to die yet he had reached a time when he was able to reflect on his career and sift out what was important to him. He was ashamed of his actions to win one title and the film did a good job of showing that and balancing it with his more honorable position deep at heart.
OK not a great film but better than I expected and not so harsh on Prost as I had been led to believe. Showing Prost as a pall bearer showed that there had been some closure between them too. The film makers were reasonably even handed in that regard.

I don't recall this in the film? Where did he say so?

#259 xj13v12

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 20:58

I don't recall this in the film? Where did he say so?



Have a look at him post race when he tries to avoid the press, will not look at people and is obviously very uneasy at what he has just done. Compare that with Schumacher who actually seemed proud of his tactics. Both may have felt justified but Senna undoubtedly regretted it whereas Schumacher never showed genuine contrition, in fact used the same tactics repeatedly. The chop at Barrichello being the most dangerous and deliberate move yet he was reluctant to offer any apology. Senna's body language was like a child caught cheating, head down avoiding people's eyes. I think that moment saw a change in him and is why the ending of the film is poignant. He loved racing yet had committed some acts that were alien to him at heart in order to win at all costs. Unfortunately he is remembered in part for that. F1 still bares the scars thanks to Schumacher taking that mentality to an unthunkable level.

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#260 WhatOh

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 21:35

Have a look at him post race when he tries to avoid the press, will not look at people and is obviously very uneasy at what he has just done. Compare that with Schumacher who actually seemed proud of his tactics. Both may have felt justified but Senna undoubtedly regretted it whereas Schumacher never showed genuine contrition, in fact used the same tactics repeatedly. The chop at Barrichello being the most dangerous and deliberate move yet he was reluctant to offer any apology. Senna's body language was like a child caught cheating, head down avoiding people's eyes. I think that moment saw a change in him and is why the ending of the film is poignant. He loved racing yet had committed some acts that were alien to him at heart in order to win at all costs. Unfortunately he is remembered in part for that. F1 still bares the scars thanks to Schumacher taking that mentality to an unthunkable level.


Did he ever actually apologise though?

#261 biercemountain

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 13:10

I finally got a chance to see this movie. It came and went too fast in the theaters. Really good flick.

I found the on-board shots really interesting. They really gave you a sense of speed and how rough the ride was on those cars. Are today's cameras stabilized to minimize all the violent shaking or was it just a lot more physical to drive an F1 car back then?

#262 nmansellfan

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 14:43

A bit of both really I reckon, biercemountain. The cameras are a lot better today than they were 20+ years ago, but the cars were mainly more physical to drive - power steering was in it's infancy then (maybe Nigel Beresford can elaborate a bit more on that). The circuits today are billiard table smooth in comparison to that era too. If you watch some onboard F1 video from Mexico City in the early 90's, the drivers look like they needed arms like Popeye to steer around there - Michele Alboreto in the Footwork Arrows from '90 springs to mind that I remember watching at the time.

Edited by nmansellfan, 07 August 2012 - 14:43.


#263 biercemountain

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 16:50

Thanks nmansellfan, the tracks did look a lot bumpier.

While I realize it's been debated ad nauseum, the onboard of Senna's accident as he proceeded through Tamburello looked to me like he was bottoming out. There were a series of darker patches along the curve that seemed to progressively upset the car more and more until he was clearly heading off track. Just my two cents.

#264 DogEarred

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:46

I finally got a chance to see this movie. It came and went too fast in the theaters. Really good flick.

I found the on-board shots really interesting. They really gave you a sense of speed and how rough the ride was on those cars. Are today's cameras stabilized to minimize all the violent shaking or was it just a lot more physical to drive an F1 car back then?



I was asked to mount cameras on a fast once and started to design cushioned mounts. The professional camera provider stopped me. He preferred solid mounts as he said the vibration is magnified by cushioning, causing 'blurring'.
F1 cameras are generally solid mounted too but such is the speed of development, I stand to be corrected/updated.

#265 Michael Ferner

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 21:13

I have now seen the full movie on YouTube, though in Portuguese, but that didn't matter that much as half of it is English anyway, and I must say I was not impressed. Some of the footage was rare and interesting, it's true, but the editing was somewhat doubtful, to say the least - the producers clearly had a message they dearly wanted to bring across. Had to laugh out loud twice during the film; once at the pathetic way Senna's Mansell pantomime after the 1991 Brazilian GP was displayed - I'd forgotten all about it, but Ayrton was almost as good as Noige at it! :D Then, a short while later, Senna was rambling on about how Prost would always blame someone or something else if things didn't go his way - say what? Was that Senna talking about himself, with the name "Prost" somehow pasted in? :lol:

All in all, it was a pitiful attempt at deification.

#266 WhatOh

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:42

All in all, it was a pitiful attempt at deification.


When I first saw this film I thought it was amazing; now I would agree with you.

#267 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:22

When I first saw this film I thought it was amazing; now I would agree with you.



Perhaps a Compare and Contrast........Aproape de Limita

Here


Maybe the best attempt yet to reveal the true racer.




Charlie

#268 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 19:18

Here


WOW! :eek:

What a great movie!!

Thanks for posting the link! Good thing there're subtitles, though... : :blush:

#269 Tony Matthews

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:52

Good thing there're subtitles, though... : :blush:

Ha! Even for a born English speaker, Michael!

#270 arttidesco

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 18:28

Perhaps a Compare and Contrast........Aproape de Limita

Here


Maybe the best attempt yet to reveal the true racer.




Charlie


Saw this a couple of months ago, certainly made my hair stand on end :love:

#271 LittleChris

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 21:56

The DVD of Closer to the Edge is available from £5.99 on Amazon. Worth also buying Rick Broadbents book " That Near Death Thing" to accompany it.

#272 JacnGille

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:48

WOW! :eek:

What a great movie!!

:up:

#273 mfd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:58

WOW! :eek:


I really recommend you to watch this Michael & anyone else :D
One man's personal experience of last year's TT - what it's like to be there as a visitor as he along with many others goes to the Isle of Man on a bike. Nice editing & use of music where appropriate. The first minute is awesome :eek:



#274 Hamish Robson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:25

There's a thread about TT - Closer to the Edge here:

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=147551

Those of you who haven't seen it are missing out. To have the TT on the big screen was, to use a current buzz-word, amazing.

#275 Barry Boor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:28

Enjoyable T.T. film, apart from the appallingly dreadful 'music'.

#276 np93

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 16:35

Sorry this a little late, but watching the film, on Senna's last lap at Imola, he is seen pushing the yellow button on the left hand side of the steering wheel into the braking areas of the corners which is the one that became infamous for demonstrating the flexibility of the steering wheel. I was wondering what the function of this was? It is said that the function of the button in 1993 was to adjust the active suspension and engine rev limit in order to aid overtaking, but this shouldn't have been possible in 1994.

#277 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 20:51

Which proves you missed the point entirely.
The point is that at heart Senna loved to race - "pure racing" as he called it.

snip

He was ashamed of his actions to win one title and the film did a good job of showing that and balancing it with his more honorable position deep at heart.




Well, when I read what he said during the press conference of Suzuka 1991 (thus one year later) and the manner in how he siad all of that, I don't think he was ashamed about what he had done the year before anymore..... More the opposite....
(Read Autocourse 1991, Japanese GP chapter if you don't understand what I refer to)

henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 December 2012 - 20:51.


#278 Velocifer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:26

Just saw it on TV and although the editing was brilliant in telling a story, it was a horrendous piece of propaganda..

I don't know if the TV version is the same as the movie, but when the whole thing starts with showing Prost as a non-racer (happy with 5th) and general sleaze (being lewd with ms Scott) and then continues to portray Senna from all the best angles it was just pathetic.

The only mitigating factor about it was that it didn't try to hide the fact of Senna winning a championship by cheating at Suzuka 90, although it did typically try to justify it.

Overall a very good watch, like I said marvelous picture editing and the captures themselves were good.

But what I don't understand is this incessant need to distort the truth for the sake of hero-worship which is then forced upon everybody (from childhood upward really). Why can't Senna and Prost just be as they were, warts and all? I just don't get how this formulaic movie format has a place in documentaries especially.

#279 275 GTB-4

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:39

Just saw it on TV and although the editing was brilliant in telling a story, it was a horrendous piece of propaganda..

I don't know if the TV version is the same as the movie, but when the whole thing starts with showing Prost as a non-racer (happy with 5th) and general sleaze (being lewd with ms Scott) and then continues to portray Senna from all the best angles it was just pathetic.

The only mitigating factor about it was that it didn't try to hide the fact of Senna winning a championship by cheating at Suzuka 90, although it did typically try to justify it.

Overall a very good watch, like I said marvelous picture editing and the captures themselves were good.

But what I don't understand is this incessant need to distort the truth for the sake of hero-worship which is then forced upon everybody (from childhood upward really). Why can't Senna and Prost just be as they were, warts and all? I just don't get how this formulaic movie format has a place in documentaries especially.

 

I have the movie on DVD and watched it peppered with adverts on telly recently....don't agree with very much you have said above...it is about Senna, that's its focus, I think it captures just how a brilliant drive became flawed eventually.

 

All his mistakes and errors of judgement were there to see...as was his incredible talent.

 

Not the greatest doco/drama ever made....but certainly a gripping story.



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#280 D-Type

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:22

A quick reminder for our British members that Senna is on ITV today (Friday) at 10.35



#281 kayemod

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:41

A quick reminder for our British members that Senna is on ITV today (Friday) at 10.35

 

I recorded it months ago the first time it was on, it's still in the DVD memory, but I still haven't watched it, not sure if I'm ever going to.

 

However, I'd set the machine to record Sir Stirling retracing his epic 1955 Mille Miglia victory last Sunday, and was very disappointed when the race delays meant that it wasn't shown. I'm sure I've seen it before, but would have enjoyed watching it again. If BBC2 ever manage to fit it back into their schedules, I'd very much appreciate a reminder from an alert TNF member, a lot more interesting than Cash in the Attic etc.



#282 sennafan24

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:18

I would advise people to track down the extended version. It is included on the Blu Ray. I am not sure if it is included on the DVD. It gives Prost the right to reply, so it is much more balanced than the Cinema/TV version.


Edited by sennafan24, 11 July 2014 - 11:19.


#283 kayemod

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:36

If the "much more balanced" version ever comes on TV I'll record that, and I might even watch it some time, but I've decided to delete the first version unwatched.



#284 Alan Baker

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:43

I recorded it months ago the first time it was on, it's still in the DVD memory, but I still haven't watched it, not sure if I'm ever going to.

 

However, I'd set the machine to record Sir Stirling retracing his epic 1955 Mille Miglia victory last Sunday, and was very disappointed when the race delays meant that it wasn't shown. I'm sure I've seen it before, but would have enjoyed watching it again. If BBC2 ever manage to fit it back into their schedules, I'd very much appreciate a reminder from an alert TNF member, a lot more interesting than Cash in the Attic etc.

The Stirling/Patrick Stewart programme was shown on BBC2 on Sunday. The tennis on BBC1 overran and they filled in on BBC2 by showing the Moss doc later than planned.



#285 kayemod

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:56

The Stirling/Patrick Stewart programme was shown on BBC2 on Sunday. The tennis on BBC1 overran and they filled in on BBC2 by showing the Moss doc later than planned.

 

To be watched by almost no-one in all probability, wonder if we'll ever be given another opportunity?



#286 sennafan24

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 12:14

http://www.bbc.co.uk...1-stirling-moss

 

The Stirling Moss documentary is on Iplayer for the next 2 days 

 

Seems it was first shown in December 2012