17 replies to this topic

[FEV]

Hi all,
This weekend's Rockingham CART race made me look back at the two 1978 USAC races of Silverstone and Brand's Hatch. I always thought and often read that this races were non-points races. However Phil Harms in his wonderful historical job at motorsport.com gives points for them both in the race-by-race recaps and in the final tables:confused: . So did they count or not for the last "real" USAC National Championship ?
FEV

[Vitesse2]

Peter Higham's "Guinness Guide to International Motor Racing" includes them as part of the championship for 1978. Not sure what his source is though.

[Barry Boor]

There wasn't a 'they'. There was only an it! Or am I mistaken?

I drove from Anglesey to Silverstone, suffering a busted windscreen on the way (near Gailey reservoirs), only to find that the rain that had been falling for most of the day had caused the race to be called off.

So I drove all the way home again. IIRC they did not try again on Sunday - or did they? Now I really can't remember if they did or not. I know they sent me my money back, anyway.

[Vitesse2]

October 1st 1978: Silverstone. Winner AJ Foyt (Coyote-Foyt/Ford)
October 7th 1978: Brands Hatch. Winner Rick Mears (Penske PC6-Cosworth)

I don't have a 1978 diary to hand so I'm not sure what days they were ...

[Barry Boor]

I stand corrected! The Silverstone race was definitely on the Sunday because the race was definitely rained off on the Saturday.

Hence the fact that there were only 5 empty days between the races. Thinking back, I must have known they were running it on the Sunday but couldn't face the journey all over again.

In fact, it was a pretty silly time to come to Europe and expect to get 3 fine days in a row - twice!

Some people never learn, do they?

[Jeremy Jackson]

Hi FEV,

Like Barry, I went to Silverstone for the Saturday race in 1978, and had to camp locally (unpleasant, given the weather!) on the off-chance that the race would happen on the Sunday. Mercifully it did actually happen.

A bonus was that BBC showed most of the Brands Hatch race live the following Saturday.

I seem to remember at the time thinking that this would become a regular event ... but then the USAC / CART split happened, and we waited 23 years ... and for medical reasons I missed going to Rockingham.

[Marcor]

In the report of the Brands Hatch race:
... Al Unser is on pole. He's well motivated as he can still aim the title. He must beat Sneva to keep his chance against Tom Snewa..."


"The two Penske PC6 of Rick Mears and Tom Sneva fight for the victory in the last quarter of the race. Roger Penske could decide to slow down Mears to leave the victory and the points to Sneva who should be champion. Roger Penske will declare: "I've no reason to do that. Mears deserves to win and Tom is virtually champion. He just must be qualified at Phoenix to beat Unser. Moreover, it's not my kind: I leave it to Colin Chapman !".

Sneva, finishing second, has 265 points more than Unser. As the score system depends of the distance of the race (twice more points than the miles covered), the Phoenix race will not be decisive (distance = 150 miles, 300 points maximum). Sneva is the virtual 1978 USAC champion..."

From Auto-Hebdo, October 26th, 1978, free translation...

The results (Brands Hatch Club circuit):
1- Rick Mears, Penske Cosworth, 100 laps, 1h 15' 23" 34 (154.13 km/h)
2- Tom Sneva, Penske Cosworth, + 8"88
3- Johnny Rutherford, Mc Laren Cosworth, + 1 laps
4- A-J Foyt, Coyotte Foyt, + 2 laps
5- Wally Dallenbach, McLaren Cosworth, + 5 laps
6- Salt Walther, McLaren Cosworth, + 6 laps
7- Dick Simon, Vollstedt Offy, + 14 laps
8- G. Snider, Coyotte Foyt, + 15 laps
9- J. Saldana, Eagle Offy, + 26 laps

FL- Danny Ongais, Parnelli Cosworth, 41" 40 (168.39 km/h)

DNF- Danny Ongais, Parnelli Cosworth (lap 81)
DNF- Gordon Johncock, Wildvat DGS
DNF- Bobby Unser, Eagle Cosworth
DNF- Gehlhausen, Eagle Offy
DNF- Bagley, Watson Offy (lap 3)
DNF- Al Unser, Lola T500 Cosworth (first lap)

DNS- Steve Krisiloff Wildcat V8 Drake

[FEV]

Thanks to all !

Jeremy you seem to be the son of rain:lol: : Silverstone 78 - Birmingham 86 - LM 01 !!!
There as been a feature last year or so in Motorsport about the two races and it was intended to make this an annual event, but if I remember well there were only 10,000 spectators at each race when they needed something like four times more not to loose money (the purses for the drivers totalled $374,146 for the two races and for only 16 drivers - a third of the Indy purse of the same year for two times less starters !!). So that's probably why (plus as you said the USAC/CART split) we had to wait 23 years...

To come back to my initial question, I should have done the calculation at first:

USAC 1978 standing WITH the GB races : 1. Sneva 4153 ; 2. Al Unser 4031.
USAC 1978 standings WITHOUT them : 1. Al Unser 3980 ; 2. Snevva 3751.
As I never read anywhere that Al Unser won the 1978 championship the question seems to be solved. But still, from the Motorsport article of above to Autosport & french magazines of taoday and even the official CART site (!!!) everybody calls these races non-championship events or exhibitions .

A few last things if you don't mind :
Marcor, you (or should I say Auto-Hebdo) give Big Al a Lola T500. Phil Harms gives him a Chaparral enterred Lola at his Indy win but calls his car a Chaparral for every other races of the series (including the british races). Is it the same car ?

Thanks again to all of you,
Cheers
FEV

[Marcor]

SPORT-AUTO, an other French source, calls the Indy winning car of Al unser Lola Cosworth T500 (July 1978). In the December edition, there is the result of the Phoenix race (round 18) and it was always Lola Cosworth for Unser. I've a picture of the car of Unser at Indy and Brands Hatch and I've compared: it's a similar car.

The final result of the 1978 Citicorp Cup (official name of the championship ?) was:
1- Tom Sneva, 4153 points
2- Al Unser, 4031 points
3- Gordon Johncock, 3548 points
4- Johnny Rutherford, 3067 points
5- A-J Foyt, 3024 points
6- Wally Dallenbach, 2966 points
7- Steve Krisiloff, 2874 points
8- Danny Ongais, 2662 points
9- Rick Mears, 2171 points
10- Pancho Carter, 1206 points
...

Sneva was champion without a single victory during the season...
Danny Ongais had 9 pole positions...

The calculations were not so easy than now !

[Jeremy Jackson]

Al Unser drove the Lola T500 throughout 1978. The Chaparral 2K didn't race until 1979 (made it's debut at Indy)

I'm certain that points were awarded for the 2 races here, they were rounds 16 & 17 of the Citicorp Cup. Autosport called them championship races in 1978, so I'm not sure why it's not reading it's own back issues.

FEV, you're probably right about me & rain, I can reel off some more seriously wet races I've attended over the last 30 years !

[911]

By the way, what kind of times did the Grand Prix guys run there that season? I think they raced at Brands in '78, but I'm not certain.

911

[FEV]

It's hard to make comparaison for several reasons. For F1 in 1978 we had the British GP at Brands and the International Trophy at Silverstone. But the BH Indy race was on the 1.2 mile Club Circuit wich is since this race known as the Indy Circuit.
At Silverstone, it rained for the Indy race and for the International Trophy it was worst : one of the most incredible downpour F1 ever saw (Keke Rosberg and all that) ! So comparaison of time is hard to do, but I would guess that despite their turbo engines the USAC cars were a few seconds of the F1 pace (heavier, not built to run on road courses and... the USAC guys did not have wet weather tyres !!)

FEV

[Marcor]

Those two races were not really like the 16 other rounds of the championship. Only 16 drivers were nominated to go to England. On July 14th and 15th, 28 drivers took part in a qualifying session in the Michigan Speedway and the 16 faster gained their ticket to Europa. The main leaders of the championship had no problem: Sneva was the fastest ahead of Mears, Foyt and Rutherford. This quartet could also take with them a spare-car. Johnny Parsons (14th) and Larry Dickson (16th) withdrew and were replaced by Tom Bagley and Joe Saldana. Pancho Carter, Phil Threshie, Sheldon Kinser, Larry Rice and Mike Mosley oa were eliminated.

At Silverstone, Ongais did a qualifying time of 1' 16" 25, 18/100 slower than the record of the track by Ronnie Peterson. During the race Ongais did 1' 18" 45/100, a time which overshadowed the record of James Hunt (1' 19" 60) dating from the 1977 British GP.

At Brands Hatch the comparison was impossible: the USAC cars used the Club track.

[FEV]

Marcor,
I knew that the 16 USAC drivers of the british races had qualified at the fall Michigan race but I donot have the results of this qualification session, do you ?
Considering the USAC points system at the time it was quite an unfair thing to send only 16 guys in GB. I guess it was for financial reasons, but guys like Pancho Carter, Tom Bigelow, Jim mcElreath lost a lot of points by not being qualified. BTW, how come they found no european driver to race at Brands or Silverstone ?

There is another mystery about the 1978 standings: how come Jqanet Guthrie dwasn't credited with the 200 points of her great Indy 500 9th place ? I guess it was because of a licence problem (often in USAC NASCAR & F1 drivers didn't score points for this reason) and I can not believe that it was because she was a woman !!

[Gerr]

Guthrie used an FIA license at Indy in '78. Only USAC license holders are eligible for the points championship.

[Lemnpiper]

Guthrie used an FIA license at Indy in '78. Only USAC license holders are eligible for the points championship.

Hi Guys & Gals,


I gotta question about these 2 races in England,




Do these 2 races now hold the record for the longest elapsed time that all the starters are still living post event in motorsports history?

I realize perhaps a race with fewer starters may have had all it's starters survive 30 plus years after it was held , but here we are talking 15 or 16 folks that not only survived racing careers but with the added 30 years any medical illnesses or real life accidents that could have taken their lives as well.

Paul








Paul

[Peter Leversedge]

At the time of the 1978 USAC races in England I was a member of USAC and some place have a news letter with the detailed results. I will find it when I can and post it

[arttidesco]

I went to Silverstone on both days was thrilled to see AJ win, later that week I went to Jubilee Gardens and met him at the meet and greet, where AJ was on form and on his best behaviour