74 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

I would like to stimulate a discussion on what road circuits were generally considered to be the toughest in the 50's, 60's and 70's. From what I picked up from my research, the obvious--Nurburgring and Spa. However, Pescara was considered to be a fairly tough track. The Targa Florio and Daytona road circuit too. Perhaps Dundrod as well. Any others I may be overlooking?

[leegle]

Bathurst would be on that list for sure and Brno.

[Keir]

How about Bremgarten, Grezlandring and Solitude??
(Speaking from a Grand Prix Legends perspective)

[mhferrari]

Nurburgring, Pescara, Spa, and Bremgarten, plus the non-F1 tracks mentioned.

[FEV]

I've heard good things about Bridgehampton. Was it that good ? Charade at the reputation of being a little Ring. Brno seemed REALLY incredible and I've been said not that dangerous. There was a natural track in Finland where motorcycles had an "Inter" (non-championship) race until the 80s. I forgot the name but I'm sure some of you know it (Stefan ?). It was tough in itself because lined with trees all around and crossing a railway. But the toughest was outside the track : all the riders got there because this town had 5 women for 1 men !!!!! All were working in a sewing factory if remember well and had the week off during the races

[Keir]

Bridgehampton, one of the great ones, but not really known for being dangerous. I had some of my best races there. The right handers after the "home" straight were a test of "balls over brains!"
It's a shame the track isn't around anymore!!

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by FEV
I've heard good things about Bridgehampton. Was it that good ?

Yes it was that good. One of the personal achievements I most highly prize is having held the lap record at Bridgehampton in Formula Ford. That class was so competitive in those days (this was 1978) that the difference in fastest laps between the top drivers was measured in the hundreths and even thousandths of a second - I finished 2nd in the race and was lucky enough to have fast lap which was also a new record -the record was eclipsed the following May at the first National Championship race (Bridgehampton had two Nationals a year in those days). It was my first year back from 10 years racing in Europe and I was also lucky enough that year to win the New York State Road Racing Championship in FF (runner-up was an up and coming young driver by the name of Chip Ganassi). Obviously the reason the record meant so much to me (and still does) was that the circuit deservedly had a reputation as one of the most difficult and intimidating anywhere. It was very fast too. For those interested in FF I should report that the car was a Crossle 32F.

Of the 53 different circuits I have raced on (to date!) I would easily put Bridgehampton in the top 5 for challenging and degree of difficulty.

[David M. Kane]

Michael, you stud...Turn one at Bridgehampton is one of the great
corners of the world. When you come over that hill flat out, it
is pretty testing and you have better have it right!

The Crossle was also a great marque, a really sweet car, Irish
too!

[Keir]

Michael,
I didn't know you were a Formula car driver!! That's something else we have in common. Watkins Glen, Formula cars, the "Bridge"!!!
Small world!!!

[Dave Ware]

How about Clerrmont-Ferrand? Five miles of twist and turns. I don't remember what the drivers thought of it but it must have been difficult. (Yet another track I was sorry to see "disappear".)

Dave

[Crazy Canuck]

Mosport - the track for guys with big balls.

CC

[Stefan Ornerdal]

FEV, the track in Finland must be Imatra, near the Russian border. Maybe Leif knows if there was any car racing at Imatra?

Stefan

[David M. Kane]

CC, you are absolutely correct, there are a coupla corners on that track that require very large ones. It is a really fun course when you get it right. The elevation changes make it
really enjoyable from a driver's perspective. I hope to drive
Mosport again soon, particularly now that I have a Formula Atlantic car with some power as opposed to just a Formula Ford.
It was a blast in a FF, so a FA should be exceptional.

[911]

Riverside International Raceway - fast & dangerous.

Also, although it's not much to look at, Willow Springs is bloody fast! It's one of the fastest road circuits in the States. Tommy Kendall & John Morton have called T9 one of the hardest corners in the States. I believe a contemporary F1 car could probably lap Willow with an average speed of over 150 mph.

911

PS: Mike & Keir - both of you are FF Studs!

[karlcars]

This thread makes me think of two extracts from my book on Dan Gurney.

First, there was the Targa Florio:

Dan respected not only the race but also its wonderful history: “The Targa was just glorious. I’d never been to a track like that, with a history that went back to 1906 – all the great names and all their achievements from Mercedes and Bugatti to Alfa Romeo and Ferrari – what a fabulous place!”

Dan had to get to grips with this incredible circuit: “Talk about a job of learning! Trying to absorb so much taxed your ability to concentrate. It’s very difficult and challenging because so many of its hundreds of turns seem virtually the same as the ones before. You couldn’t tell if you were approaching a straightaway or a hairpin. The turn looked the same, the surroundings looked the same and the drop-offs on the outside of the road looked the same.

“I started out as a passenger in a muletta,” Dan continued, “an older Ferrari sports car, a two-litre Mondial four-cylinder. Phil Hill drove me around and, well, scared the dickens out of me. The routine was that once that was over with – if I had survived that – I became the driver with Cliff Allison as my passenger. I would be surprised if he wasn’t a basket case by the time we’d finished.” Emboldened by the experience, Allison then went on a solo lap, at the end of which he demolished the Mondial against a bridge abutment. This so discomfited him that he elected not to drive in the race. Practice continued with rented Fiats.

An then there was Riverside:

The praise given to these drivers [Gurney et al] after Riverside’s first race was well justified. This was no ordinary circuit. The brainchild of restaurateur and racer Rudy Cleye, the 3.3-mile track had been built in 528 rolling acres of near-desert terrain at a cost of $800,000. Funded by wealthy car owner and entrant John Edgar, it was intended to be a multi-purpose facility with a drag strip and oval track, though the latter never materialised. Even without its oval Riverside was Southern California’s first major racing complex, designed to draw spectators from the entire region. With the help of major newspaper promotions, it did just that.

But Riverside, dubbed a ‘little Nürburgring’, was a wicked circuit. Jim Mourning again: “Whether by accident or design, the layout contains nearly every nasty feature to be found in road racing circuits anywhere, including dips, changes in camber, decreasing-radius turns and a banked turn – sans escape route – on the end of the long straightaway. Even though no one really doubted the trickiness of the course or the sincerity of club officials when they practically begged for caution, the weekend record showed one casualty, one case still in doubt, one severely injured driver and a lot of badly bent machinery.”

Case in point: Driving the Maserati 450S of track backer John Edgar, Carroll Shelby was the main-race favourite. On his very first practice lap of the track Carroll crashed so severely into the embankment flanking turn six that he needed 70 stitches and minor plastic surgery to put his face together. Turn six, a tight rising and falling off-camber right-hander, also caused the weekend’s fatality. The sinuous esses from the start-finish to turn six often left drivers wondering which turns they were on. And the steel wall on the outside of the fast right-hand turn nine was unforgiving of brake failure after the mile-long straight.

[FEV]

Stefan,
I don't think it was Imatra, because the Inter race I'm talking about use to be one week after or before the FIM Finland GP which always was held in Imatra. Wasn't there a track called Keimora ? Maybe that's it ??? All these Inter races are long gone now and I doubt there is much stats or books about them.. That would be a great work to do for a motorsport historian, but oops ! we're on a car racing site !

Karl,
I don't unfortunately have your marvelous Gurney book, but these extracts make me want it even more than before !!

FEV

[Joe Fan]

How about Laguna Seca? As far as racing sims, this track seems to be fast and has some turns that are pretty difficult because you are carrying so much speed into them. The Corkscrew is a real nightmare.

Monaco is another one that seems to be more challenging than meets the eye because it is an extremely tight track.

[David M. Kane]

Actually the Corkscrew is a fairly easy corner. The toughest
corner is actually turn 2 Andretti, it is very, very hard to get
right because it just goes on and on; AND if you don't enter it
correctly you are screwed until the next time around.

Monaco is EXTREMELY narrow. One cannot appreciate just how narrow
it is until you actually drive it in a road car or walk it. There is no room for error ANYWHERE on that how circuit. I can't even
imagine going around there in an F1 car, let alone doing the
race that Rindt did there when he beat Brabham!

[Pikachu Racing]

the old Nurburing - what can you say? Looks incredibly dangerous with the multi-corners which cornering speeds matter

Monaco - incredibly narrow track with elevation rises and no mistakes needed.

Old Denver street course that ran in CART for two year - Very tight, confined in walls, with little or no time for reaction if something happens in front

Old Vancouver street course - the race is likely a demolition derby with the tight confines and that one nasty looking hairpin.

[FEV]

Speaking of street races, the first Long Beach design was quite challenging. Elevations, very fast bits, no chicanes.
And what about Macao the longest of them all ?

[LittleChris]

I'll add Chimay in Belgium to the list.

[dmj]

Isle of Man.
Preluk, Croatia (also more famous for motorcycle races but there were some pretty interesting sportscar ones in 50's).

[kazan]

"I'll add Chimay in Belgium to the list"

The Grand Prix des Frontières was a very pleasant country place to be on Whit-Sunday, with outstanding post-racing trappist beer celebrating... Yet, it was a pretty dangerous course - particularly at the time of that unbelievablke narrow bridge ! And I found it a bit unchallenging, with that lengthy straight to Salles, in spite of cows hazards on the track at times...
Good old Nürburg still stands as my favourite as far as the "good old days", with Spa -so definitely-, as it stands now (the "bus stop" chicane being next to the most stupid thing on earth, though !

[Wolf]

DMJ- thanx for nominating Preluk. I would've done it, but I feared I'd get kicked next time I mentioned it... Those were my two nominations, anyway... Wait, wait!

And how about longest one of them all? I think only Taruffi really knew Brescia-Rome-Brescia route. IIRC, Moss reckoned he could've driven that race blindfolded ( ), and thought it only fitting that he won the last MM.

[rdrcr]

dmj, you beat me to it.

The Isle of Man circuit seems like one of the most unforgiving road race circuits to race on.

Undulating roadway, houses, curbs, stone walls, a nasty mix if you ask me.

I'd have to say the original Nurburgring, Mille Miglia and the Targo Florio for sure.

Riverside was pretty tough too - another good choice along with Mosport.

I've read about Bridgehampton and have only seen a couple of races on film. Tough to say, but I'll take Mike's word for it.

How about the original Le Mans circuit? Because it's so long and run around the clock the weather plays a big part most of the time. I imagine running down the Mulsanne at 230+ in the old days and hitting fog or a rain shower must have been a real eyeball popper.

There was this story of Phil Hill I think, about when he would pass the cafe on the left, going 180 in the fog, counted down from 8 or something, then turned right at the Mulsanne corner. Hoping that it was there.

You need courage by the truck load for that one...

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

The Crossle was also a great marque, a really sweet car, Irish
too! [/B]

Dave - you are so right. John Crossle always seemed to get it right. And this was at a time of intense competition in design and production of Formula Ford. He (and Leslie Dryden who was part of his design team at the time - Leslie later broke away and became a constructor in his own right) always produced a conservative but very fast car. My first Crossle was a 30F (which I still think was one of the prettiest and cleanest designs ever in the class). I was living in Amsterdam (this was '76) and remember pulling my empty trailer (behind my Opel Ascona 1.9SR) to Hoek van Holland and then across to Harwich and over the road to Liverpool. At 7 A.M. the next morning the ferry from Belfast pulled in and they rolled the Crossle down the ferry ramp. Someone helped me push it up on my trailer and I headed back. I actually stopped at Scholar and picked up my engine which I stuffed in the trunk (boot!) of the Opel. I drove to Germany where my brother Pete was living at the time and he helped me fit the engine. I drove from there to Zolder for a race.

But - - - to stay on topic! I am surprised that noone has mentioned Watkins Glen in the list of great driver tracks. Actually all three Watkins Glen circuits are considered real driver challenges.

The first track - the 6.6 mile road course which ran from 1948-52 was incomparable. It was "the" American circuit of the era (and we came 'oh so close' to having the first USGP there in '51 or '52 - but that's another story! - and finally got the GP in '61 but by then of course it was a different circuit) and because, happily, it remains intact it still draws rave reviews from all who see and drive on it. All the GP drivers who came in the 50's, 60's, and 70's and saw it compared it with the greatest European circuits.

The so called interim circuit - 1953-55 - although not on a par with the original - was still pretty good - it was a 4.6 mile road circuit that no less a personage than Phil Walters famously called "a course for brave men."

The present circuit dates from 1956 and ran as a 2.3 mile course through 1970 (it became the site of the USGP in 1961). In 1971 the circuit was lengthened by approx. 1.1 miles and some other changes were made to accomodate the new pits, tower and changed s/f line. Some may prefer to refer to the circuit from 1971 on as the fourth circuit. Actually the present circuit has two configurations - the 2.45 mile NASCAR version (which is essentially the original 2.3 mile version with changes as noted) and the 3.4 mile GP circuit. In any case it is very challenging and demanding and most people who drive on it consider it one of the toughest circuits in the world.

Bridgehampton as I said earlier in this thread was great. Also now defunct but a truly great circuit was Mid America Raceway at Wentzville, Missouri. Road Atlanta before the recent changes was breathtaking from a driver's perspective. Mosport is second to none I believe. You could make good arguments for VIR, Sebring, Mont Tremblant and others.

But none of these great North American circuits quite come up to the two greatest tracks I have ever seen - those being Spa-Francorchamps and the Nurburgring.

And still - we should always remember that no matter what track you are on - you somehow have to find a way to be quicker than the other guy!

[Bernd]

Mike would you say that the proper Glen was the greatest racetrack ever raced on in the States? I have heard a lot of good things about proper Savannah but very little in the way of solid detail about it.... 25 Miles!!!!
Sorry about my use of the word 'Proper' I use it for every circuit in its original configuration, upgrades/redos of circuits are rarely in my experience. Proper Spa, Proper Nurburgring etc etc

You really should get on a plane to sunny South Australia and meet up with Raymond Bell and have him chauffeur you around Lobethal that I can assure you is quite an experience.

[Joe Fan]

Mike, Watkins Glen is a classic circuit and one of my favorites. To me, it is the perfect road circuit for stock car racing. It is fast with long sweeping turns and that great interloop. However, in terms of difficulty for NASCAR stock cars which is the top series racing at the Glen today, David Green never really mentioned it as one of more difficult tracks when I asked him that question. He thought Sears Point (pre-Bruton Smith changes) was one of the toughest tracks he raced on due to all the blind corners and elevation changes. Others he mentioned were oval tracks (Dover and Charlotte). However, I guess it depends on who you ask. We might get a different answer from Dale Jarrett.;) I'll be seeing DJ Saturday so I will ask him.

P.S. What are the other tough tracks in your personal top five?

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by rdrcr
How about the original Le Mans circuit? Because it's so long and run around the clock the weather plays a big part most of the time. I imagine running down the Mulsanne at 230+ in the old days and hitting fog or a rain shower must have been a real eyeball popper.

There was this story of Phil Hill I think, about when he would pass the cafe on the left, going 180 in the fog, counted down from 8 or something, then turned right at the Mulsanne corner. Hoping that it was there.

You need courage by the truck load for that one...

The 24 Hours of Le Mans race is a great test for man and machine as an event but as far as a track, the Le Mans circuit wasn't noted as being real difficult. Masten Gregory thought it was a rather simple track. A.J. Foyt called it "a little ole country road." However, being fast at Le Mans meant having huge gonads required to not lift too early at the end of Mulsanne Straight. This is why Masten Gregory probably didn't think the circuit was that challenging for him because he was a fearless as they came.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Remembering this thread, I was fascinated to see an interview with Frank Williams today on Speedvision during their coverage of morning practice for the USGP. Frank Williams said that the greatest circuit - and the one he missed the most - for the USGP had been Watkins Glen. He said something to effect that it was the greatest test of driver bravery and skill. I wish I had had a tape in so I could replay it to capture just what he did say. It was very brief. Did anyone else hear it - or better yet record it?

Speedvision's coverage as been first rate but tomorrow morning I'm driving down to Indianapolis to see the race in person.

[Joe Fan]

Joe Fan back from Kansas Speedway. I did get to ask Dale Jarrett and Sterling Marlin what the three toughest tracks on the Winston Cup circuit were tonight. Sterling Marlin said "New Hampshire, New Hampshire and New Hampshire!" Dale Jarrett said, "Good question" and then he quickly said, "Sears Point" and then paused and said "Pocono and New Hampshire."

I would say that the original Watkins Glen circuit that Mike's dad Cameron Argetsinger help found, was one of the real tough circuits of its day as it had a lot of similarities to Nurburgring.

I also agree that the Watkins Glen circuit would be a much tougher circuit for open wheel cars since it is a extremely fast circuit. It would take some huge gonads to run Watkins Glen flat out in an open wheel car.

[coyoteBR]

How about the Gavea Circuit?
It was a tentative of making a "monaco-feel" race at Rio de Janeiro. Full of ups and downs, with a sector where the drivers would have the montais at right and the sea, at left, making some scenes of "car-fishing".

[FucF1]

Does anyone have any more information on Dundrod? Thanks

[mhferrari]

http://www.silhouet....cks/tracks.html

Go to this for a world track database.

[PDA]

My vote has to go to the isle of Man TT course. 37 and a bit miles, all the hazards mentioned in the post above, and still in use for the TT races. It is, IMO, extra special becasue it is bloody fast as well. I'm not sure of the current lap record, but I think it is between 125 and 130 mph for Super Bikes. Only real racers do well there, mere fast drivers need not apply.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by PDA
My vote has to go to the isle of Man TT course. 37 and a bit miles, all the hazards mentioned in the post above, and still in use for the TT races. It is, IMO, extra special becasue it is bloody fast as well. I'm not sure of the current lap record, but I think it is between 125 and 130 mph for Super Bikes. Only real racers do well there, mere fast drivers need not apply.

Ahem. Not drivers, RIDERS.

If it were not for Grand Prix Legends, I would not have an appreciation for what these circuits were. Track maps just do them justice. I've become quite interested in the Nostalgia forum because of that program... Of some of the ones not (or rarely) mentioned:

Solitude: A mix of the Ring second and third gear corners, and some Spa like superquick sections. Real ballsy. Unfortunately, mainly only a bike and sidecar track, as it is narrow.

Rouen: Very, very fast. Feels like a downhill ski course to the Nouveau Monde hairpin, then you work your way back up... The track map looks a little plain, but when you 'drive' (sim drive it that is) you realize that this place was something else. There were some incredible French tracks... this was among the best...

Grenlandzring: Looks like a egg shaped flat track. Insanely fast. Held an F-2 race...

Bremgarten. Narrow, haybales, curbs, trees, and fast. Feels like you are threading a needle. Great layout.

You know, I always thought Goodwood was a boring cookie cutter post WWII British airfield circuit.... I was wrong... that place was (is) tough... Underrated...

[fines]

Grenzlandring? You must be joking...

[ehagar]

Originally posted by fines
Grenzlandring? You must be joking...

Not a classic, but nuts.... totally nuts...

[Winegod]

Anyone heard of the Virgina International Raceway? I just saw a bike race there on Fox Sports West. It looks like a really sweet, twisty track.

[mhferrari]

VIR I heard is good.
A track map of Grenzlandring looks crazy, 5 miles!!!

[FEV]

Nick England has a great site about VIR :
http://dega.cs.unc.e...ck/new/vir.html
Former F1/F2 driver Bertil Roos has his racing school down here now.

[Mike Argetsinger]

The Nick England site that FEV refers to is worth looking at for no other reason than it repeats a self serving piece of garbage that VIR has been publishing since it reopened. It's really quite a joke.

Please understand that I like VIR very much. I raced there last September and liked just about everything about it. It is a very challenging circuit - set in drop dead beautiful Virginia country side right on the North Carolina border. The facilities are first rate and getting better all the time. They are really doing everything right as far I can tell.

So why would a facility with everything in the world going for it continue to tout a supposed quote from Carroll Shelby who is alleged to have said in 1957 "one lap here is like 100 at Watkins Glen" ?

And here's the joke. In 1957 Carroll Shelby had never been to Watkins Glen. Better still he never did race at Watkins Glen - ever in his career!

Call it a rant if you wish - say it struck a nerve - all true perhaps. But I just really object to people making things up out of whole cloth.

[Barry Boor]

Well now, AT LAST, a new circuit in the world that is comparable to some of the classic old ones:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/72243

We have had a Google Earth view recently but the photo on the Autosport web page really underlines the comments from the drivers.

Bring it on!

[David McKinney]

[Rob Semmeling]

Potrero de los Funes is an instant classic. What other newly-built circuit has a backdrop like this:

http://www.projectle...VC/IMG_1262.JPG

Thanks to the wonders of live-streaming, I was able to watch nearly the entire FIA GT race last Sunday, and like the circuit the race was great! Half-a-second between first and second after two hours of racing.

Although F1 would be spectacular here, sadly it will probably never happen. For one thing, it currently has a grade 2 license which isn't enough, and the place is also very remote. The real problem though, is that BE does not care what the circuits look like, he cares about cash.

Hopefully series like WTCC, ALMS or maybe A1GP will take notice of this new pearl in motor racing.

[Barry Boor]

This place looks breathtaking.

Frankly, I'm staggered that any modern professional driver was prepared even to leave the pits. GOOD FOR THEM!

I have searched my satellite listings to find a re-run of Sunday's race but have so far been unsuccessful in finding any.

[Rob Semmeling]

There's a lot of stuff on YouTube, Barry.

Highlights part 1:



Highlights part 2:



Practice lap of race-winner Bert Longin:

[fines]

This here is interesting:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

An on-board lap with a classical slipstream pass at 3'10"...;)

[ex Rhodie racer]

Firstly, I would like to clarify something. Strictly speaking, the original Nürburgring wasn´t a road circuit per se. It was a purpose built facility, and as such, didn´t comprise of any public roads, as far as I know. Certainly the Nordschleifer was a pure race track without any public roads included.
Secondly, there are several very famous road circuits not mentioned in this very good thread.
The first that springs to mind was the circuit in the town of Opatia in the former Yugoslavia (now Croatia I think). I´m not sure if it was ever used for car racing (very likely), but it was the venue for the Yugoslavian motorcycle GP. It comprised of roads running along the fairly steep cliffs overlooking the beautiful bay of Opatia and was extremely dangerous. After two further fatalities in 1977, it was decided to scrap the venue, and the GP was moved to Rijeka about 30 km´s away, where a permanent circuit was built.
In Belgium, besides the ultra fast Chimey circuit already discussed on here, there were another two that I recall. The first of these was in Mettet, an ultra fast road circuit in typical Begium tradition, as well as the fairly tight road circuit in the town of St Joris.
In Holland, the original GP circuit in Assen started out as a pure road circuit, a variation of which existed well into the eighties. In fact Holland had countless road circuits, mostly used for motorcycle racing, and internationals were held at Hengelo, Raalte, Tubbergen, Tilburg and Ammerzoden, all road circuits.
Another not mentioned on here is the old Sachsenring in what was the former East Germany. In fact the highest attendance (400,000) of any European sporting event was recorded at this circuit which hosted both 2 and 4 wheel racing.
Many, many more that I can think of, but I´m sure I´ve bored you enough by now.

[Rob Semmeling]

Firstly, many circuits on this thread are road circuits in the American sense, but not the British.

Secondly, since you mentioned road circuits in Belgium and the Netherlands...

The new version of my website www.wegcircuits.nl will be online next Monday, 1 December. It lists over 150 places in both countries that once upon a time had a road course.