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#1 Chico Landi

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:21

I was curious about how the teams name their cars.

I know for example that the FW stands for Frank Williams, or that BT stands for Brabham-Tauranac.

But there are some cars that I really have no clue. Does anyone know?

BRM P?
Cooper T?
Ligier JS?
Matra MS?
Surtees TS?
Shadow DN?
Ensign N?
Larousse LH?
Osella FA?
Sauber C?
Coloni FC?

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#2 Darren Galpin

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:34

Didn't the P in BRM numbers mean Prototype?

#3 lustigson

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:49

I believe JS in the Ligier types stands for Jean-Louis Schlesser or some other French sounding driver. TS at Surtees probably means Team Surtees. Osella's FA could have something to do with Fondmetal, which bought the team in the late 80s, early 90s. The other are somewhat of a mystery to me too.

#4 Kpy

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:50

Ligier - JS was a tribute to Jo Schlesser, killed at Rouen 7 July 1968.

Shadow - Don Nicholls (Team's founder) who was effectively shafted by the founders of Arrows.

Surtees is probably Team Surtees

Ensign is probably N for Nunn. In those days Mo Nunn was known as No Munn, as he was always broke.

I have an idea that BRM's P was for project, but not sure.

#5 Kpy

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:52

Originally posted by lustigson
I believe JS in the Ligier types stands for Jean-Louis Schlesser .


Jean-Louis is Jo's nephew.

#6 YOSSARION

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:56

I thought the P used by BRM was for Project.
Cooper - T - Type(?)

Ligier - JS - Jo Schlesser, a good friend of Guy Ligier killed in the French Grand Prix of '68 driving the air cooled V8 Honda RA302.

Matra - MS - Matra Sport(?)

Shadow - DN - Don Nichols, the team owner.

Ensign - N - Nunn(?)

I'm wracking my brain on the others, but I'll get back to you on those.

#7 YOSSARION

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 08:58

Oooops.
We seem to have posted almost identical replies at the same time.

#8 Kpy

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 09:05

Ooops, so we did!

BTW, where does your user name come from?

#9 leegle

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 09:11

Ensign was MN for Mo Nunn :)

#10 Frank de Jong

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 09:18

The MS for Matra was probably in the 70's also used for "Matra-Simca".
The F for Osella is probably for "Formula" (single seater) since the prototypes were called PA (like "prototipo?")

#11 YOSSARION

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 09:38

Larrouse - LH - L for Larrouse, H is possibly for Herd (as in Robin Herd) who was involved with the design of, certainly the first, car.

Kpy - Yossarion is the central character from Catch 22, a wonderfully dark, cynical and funny literary masterpiece.

#12 Kpy

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 10:22

Yossarion - I've PMed you.

#13 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 11:07

The "C" in the Sauber designation is for Christiane, the wife of Peter Sauber.

#14 MPea3

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 11:12

you missed one of the best initials of all time, which didn't even make it to it's first race. i once read that jack brabham's car was supposed to have been called an MRD, after Motor Racing Development, but the when he showed up for the french grand prix, they had a quick talk with him, and as they say, the rest is history...

;)

#15 dmj

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 11:19

you missed one of the best initials of all time, which didn't even make it to it's first race. i once read that jack brabham's car was supposed to have been called an MRD, after Motor Racing Development, but the when he showed up for the french grand prix, they had a quick talk with him, and as they say, the rest is history...



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So if Fittipaldi team had debut at Swedish GP it would probably remain Copersucar forever...;)

#16 lustigson

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 11:23

By the way... I saw someone mention the Honda RA302. The current Honda engine is called the RA001E. What does that stand for? RA could be RAcing, 001 the year -- as in 2001 -- but the E doesn't ring a bell.

#17 BertlF

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 11:59

Originally posted by lustigson
By the way... I saw someone mention the Honda RA302. The current Honda engine is called the RA001E. What does that stand for? RA could be RAcing, 001 the year -- as in 2001 -- but the E doesn't ring a bell.


Is it E for EVOLUTION? The first model of the year was called RA001 AFAIK, then they followed with RA001E.

Bert

#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 12:04

Originally posted by MPea3
you missed one of the best initials of all time, which didn't even make it to it's first race. i once read that jack brabham's car was supposed to have been called an MRD, after Motor Racing Development, but the when he showed up for the french grand prix, they had a quick talk with him, and as they say, the rest is history...

;)


Not just "supposed", it was! Run by Gavin Youl in several FJ events in 1961, the MRD was the first Brabham-built car. Jack couldn't use his own name as he was still driving for Cooper, so used MRD. In 1962 he split with Cooper, setting up his own team and the first Brabham was the FJ BT2 (developed from the MRD), followed by the F1 BT3. The MRD was retrospectively renumbered as the BT1.

#19 lustigson

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 12:37

BertIF, what's that AFAIK thing you're talking about? I don't get it.

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 12:41

AFAIK = As Far As I Know:)

#21 lustigson

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 13:04

Aha... duh. :blush:

#22 Don Capps

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 13:21

As mentioned earlier:

BRM P? = Project
Cooper T? = Type
Ligier JS? = Jo Schlesser
Matra MS? = Matra Sports (1970: Matra Simca)
Surtees TS? = Team Surtees
Shadow DN? = Don Nichols
Ensign N? = Nunn

The BRM assigned a "P" number to every major component of the car: chassis, engine, and gearbox. In the beginning, the the "P" applied to all the major components of that Project: there was the P15 chassis, the P15 engine, and P15 gearbox; ditto for the P25 series. The P48 was the first real departure from the P15/P25 pattern.

The Cooper "T" numbers are, at best, often suspect and most are retroactive applications by both historians and the works. Indeed, for most of its active life, few realized that Coopers had any real type numbers. Generally, there were some "Mark" numbers applied to the F3 and F2 cars, but that was a means of convenience versus anything "official." At some point in the early 1960's, there was a general sorting out of this at Coopers. Later on, Doug Nye and others cleaned and tidied this up.

The Shadow story is one for another time and place, but the original Shadow was the teeny-wheeled AVS (Advanced Vehicle Systems) Can-Am car which was certainly one of the most striking looking cars to take the track in those days. There was also the Autocoast Ti-22, but that is also another part of the story.....

#23 cjpani

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 16:36

The LH in the Larousse might stand for Lamborghini, but i´m not sure.

#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:00

The BRM assigned a "P" number to every major component of the car: chassis, engine, and gearbox. In the beginning, the the "P" applied to all the major components of that Project: there was the P15 chassis, the P15 engine, and P15 gearbox; ditto for the P25 series. The P48 was the first real departure from the P15/P25 pattern.



I don't think that's quite true. The car we always refer to as the P25 was actualy the P27, the engine was the P25. There's also the question, if the V16 was the P15, what were P1-14? I suspect it's no coincidence that P15 was 1.5 litres and P25 was 2.5.

Then BRM numbering went off course again in the 60s with P578 (8-cylinder version of the P57!), and P261 (the second monocoque car, the first being the P61.

On Surtees, when the first F5000 car appeared it was known simply as the TS5, the Surtees name ws only used later.

#25 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:14

Is the Sauber C not named after Carmen Ziegler, the first team mangaer Sauber had in F1??

#26 Ursus

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:22

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Is the Sauber C not named after Carmen Ziegler, the first team mangaer Sauber had in F1??


IIRC the sportcars also had C designations, so that's not likely. The wife story is also what I have heard previously.

#27 Ursus

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:27

I got curious and visited Saubers website (www.sauber.ch). The C does stand for Christiane.

From www.sauber.ch :

C for Christiane


Soon after, Peter Sauber moved from Beetle tuning to building two-seater open sportscars. The beginning of a long series was the C1 which was designed in the basement of his parents- apartment. For the car's name, the constructor chose the first initial of his wife's name Christiane, a tribute to the patience with which she has accepted her husband's frequent absences from home. Until this day all Sauber constructions carry the initial C in their names. The latest model is the C20, the race car for 2001. The only missing number was the C10 (simply because of the German pronunciation), and the only exception to the rule was a car with the C291 specification



#28 Chico Landi

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:41

Quite impressive, guys! :up: Thanks!!!

Now for something I know:

what is the FD at the Fittipaldi's cars?

#29 Don Capps

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:47

Roger,

The P15 may have been the only "overall" P number since you are correct on the P25 engine/P27 chassis -- but even Owen Organisation called it the whole car the "P25." There were no "P" numbers prior to P15 and, no, the "P25" was not a coincidence.

From the P48 onward, the Owen lads were consistently inconsistent since they seemed to be oblivious to what historians would have to deal with in their wake: the 'P48/57,' the 'P578,' the 'P261'.... Actually it was the P57 and then the P57 chassis for the P56 vee 8 -- chassis 578#; the P61 2nd Series which was given chassis numbers from '2612' onwards.....

And nice one on the "TS5" since few realize that juicy morsel of information.

#30 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:47

F is for Fittipaldi
D is for Divila (after their designer Richard Divila)

#31 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:56

My mistake... I knew it was a woman!.....

#32 Don Capps

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 19:56

Also, another thought on the "TS" -- it could have also been "Terry Surtees" since, assuming my faulty memory isn't failing me again, that Len Terry penned the car while he was a freelancer. Later came the Leda which series of which the LT27 became the McRae GM1.

I think....

#33 FEV

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 20:38

One I've always wondered about was ATS (the german one) : HS1 in 1978 than, after that, D followed by a number ???
Also is it true that the Hesketh H308s were named this way beacuse the Lord admired the pre-war ALFA 308 ?

Larrousse LH is for Larrousse and Herd. There were Cosworth powered LHs so the L couldn't stand for Lamborghini.

About Sauber some of his early sportscars were SHS1 if I remember well. Anyone knows why ?

I'm a little bit ashame to ask this one (as I guess most of you know the answer) : Mercedes GP cars from 1934 to 1955 were always named W something (from W25 to W196), why ???

I've always thought the LT in LT27 was for Leda-Tui, thanks Don !

#34 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 20:58

A bit more on Surtees: the TS5 had been originally conceived as the first Leda F5000 but Big John took it over when shortcomings became obvious in the prototype. Len Terry redesigned it for Surtees, but I think TS does actually stand for Team Surtees - John's overall operation was called Surtees Racing Organization and comprised Team Surtees and TS Research and Development Ltd.

The earlier numbers (1-4) were motorcycle projects and carried JS prefixes.

#35 Wolf

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 21:40

FEV- W stood for Wagen (vehicle), whereas their engines were labeled M for Motor (engine). But I don't know key behind numbers... :blush: Maybe, somebody will be able to tell You that.

#36 Frank de Jong

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Posted 27 September 2001 - 07:02

FEV, some answers from the top of my head (risky, risky):
ATS HS: Herd (again!) / Schmid; Herd left the company soon, so they dropped this code. Can't remember where the D stands for.
The 308 for Hesketh is in my view 3 litres, 8 cilinders.
Sauber SHS: it was a co-production between Sauber and Seger & Hoffman IIRC. They split soon afterwards.

#37 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 September 2001 - 18:48

Mercedes-Benz still use the W- designation for their road cars, but I don't know how they derive the numbers. A few years ago thir mid-range car (the equivalent of what is now called the E-class) was the W124, but I waited in vain for its Straight-8 5.6 litre successor.

#38 fines

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 19:17

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
F is for Fittipaldi
D is for Divila (after their designer Richard Divila)

Perhaps a good time to inquire about Divila's first name, I've also seen "Ricardo", and since he's Brazilian that sounds a lot more convincing. Anyone with insight?

And about the BRM P261, I always thought its "correct" name was P61/2, as in P61 Mk 2!?

#39 stavelot

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 20:03

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Mercedes-Benz still use the W- designation for their road cars, but I don't know how they derive the numbers. A few years ago thir mid-range car (the equivalent of what is now called the E-class) was the W124, but I waited in vain for its Straight-8 5.6 litre successor.


W is for Wagen (car on german).

Larousse LC means L(arousse) C(almels)

Calmers was the co-founder of the team.

ATS D means D(eutschland) - Germany

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#40 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 22:57

Michael, I am sure he was christened Ricardo but at some point his name was anglified to Richard. I think he prefered to use Richard himself. I think it is only a matter of preference. The swedish king is called Carl/Charles/Carlo/Kaarle and so on, depending on which country it is.

#41 fines

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Posted 01 October 2001 - 16:17

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Michael, I am sure he was christened Ricardo but at some point his name was anglified to Richard. I think he prefered to use Richard himself. I think it is only a matter of preference. The swedish king is called Carl/Charles/Carlo/Kaarle and so on, depending on which country it is.

Well, that's exactly what I was thinking, but does anybody know for sure?