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Motor sport during WW2


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#51 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 09:50

Originally posted by jarama
.....the first race meeting held in Spain after the cruel civil war was as early as in the 28th of April 1940, a mere one year after the finish of the war. It was, for sure, a national event, the Vallvidrera Hillclimb, just in the outskirts of Barcelona. The overall winner was José María Cucurella, Ford, 2'35"6.

Carles, thank you.
I made a note of that event for my list of mountain races. Do you happen to know if the Ford was classified as sports car or racing car and what the circuit length was?

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#52 jarama

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 10:32

Hans,

lamentably, I can't provide you with more info on this event, 'cause is all I know: date, driver, make and FDT. According to the sources, "se batían todos los récords - entre ellos el de automóviles..." (all the records were beated - amongst them the one for the cars), so I think the hillclimb was for cars and motorcycles. The hillclimb official tittle was "Carrera en cuesta a Vallvidrera", and the course lenght was 2.5 km. And that's all... :blush:

About the driver, was born in Barcelona, on June, 8th, 1917.

Carles.

#53 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 10:41

Carles - This is good information, thank you. Its sufficient for my list. :)

#54 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 10:57

Thank you Felix - I stand corrected! I remembered the Hitler/Franco meeting, but must have confused it with Il Duce going to Berlin!

I don't see why it is accepted ("of course" - natürlich in the original Hans?) that the neutrals - USA and Romania - were not in attendance in Bern. :confused: The absence of the others is understandable.

And there seems to be a contradiction here: two sources saying that the Coppa Ciano, Coppa Acerbo and Italian GP would be for voiturettes and one saying for Formula cars. We can presumably add to the "Formula cars" the German GP, which was planned for the new Deutschlandring. We also know there was a planned Vienna GP which was cancelled in 1939 - has anyone seen evidence of this being revived? Or of a 1940 Swiss GP?

#55 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 13:01

Incidentally, even if before WWII, Javier del Arco reports, in his excellent book about Montjuïc, a 1936 race called something like "Copa de Socorro Rojo" and featured in the Republican area of Barcelone, during the civil war !
(November 15, won by F. Puig in a 1500 cc Bugatti)

#56 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 19:13

Originally posted by Vitesse2
..... don't see why it is accepted ("of course" - natürlich in the original Hans?) that the neutrals - USA and Romania - were not in attendance in Bern. :confused: The absence of the others is understandable......

Richard - I don't understand this either why it was accepted as "natürlich" or "of course".

The original text from AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, May 14, 1940, No. 20, pg. 1:
.....Von Deutschland abgesehen, dessen Abordnung bis zur letzten Stunde nicht bekanntgegeben war, mussten natürlich die Holländer, die Belgier, die Vereinigten Staaten, Monaco, England und Rumänien dem Kongress fernbleiben..... :)

#57 jarama

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 00:14

[i]Originally posted by Felix Muelas [/i
But of course he met Hitler once. It was on October 23rd, 1940. The place was a train in the Franco-Spanish border (Hendaye). To simplify matters, Hitler told Franco that he needed to cross Spain with troops in order to reach North Africa. Should that "favour" be granted, Spain will recover "Gibraltar", amongst other things.
Franco said "I´ll think about it", turned round and went back home.

The next morning he gave instructions for the width of the train lines to be changed, making it impossible for trains coming from France to "force" their way into Spain...he never met Hitler again. [/B]

Félix,

If I'm not wrong, the spanish width of the train lines, similar to the russian but different in most cases of European countries, is as old as the train himself, and in any case we're speaking of the reign of Isabel II or maybe Alfonso XII - about 100 years before Franco and Hitler meet each other at Hendaya. For sure, the reason of this different width was the same you're arguing, by all accounts, protect Spain from an invassion via railway.

Carles.

#58 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 21:47

To be sure, this line of thought was prevalent during the latter half of the nineteenth century. The experience of the American states in the Civil war pointed to this aid to invasion, and in Australia the cue was taken to avoid it happening here.

Thus, Victoria uses a broad 5' 3" gauge, Queensland, South Australia and Western Australia use a narrow 3' 6" gauge, while New South Wales alone stood with the 'standard gauge' dimension of 4' 8.5"...

On the contrary, the coming of Federation had as one of its platforms a move towards standardisation. Western Australia demanded rail links with the east, so the Federal Government was obliged to construct a link from Whyalla to Kalgoorlie, across the Nullarbor Plain. This was to become, for many years, an island of 'standard gauge' rain in a sea of 'narrow gauge,' only being connected at each end by links to Perth and Sydney in the 1970s.

Prior to that, and I don't know when, but they are old links, the NSW system reached with a single line across the mountainous border country to the north into Brisbane, the 'broad gauge' line from Melbourne lashed across the wastelands and into Adelaide. In the early 1960s the Southern Aurora and the Spirit of Progress, as well as a bundle of freight trains, were able to run on a standardised line from Sydney to Melbourne.

Apparently the threat of invasion had ceased...

And before anybody cries "What about Tasmania and the Northern Territory?" I will point to a total lack of rail lines north of Alice Springs and a large body of water south of Victoria. But, for the record, they both use the 'narrow gauge' lines for what they have, with some exceptions in Tassie for the extremely rugged country's mining lines, which are even narrower, as are the local cane lines in Queensland.

#59 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 22:18

I have a vague memory of reading that the railways in countries where the 5 foot 3 inch gauge is prevalent were built by Irish engineers - Irish main line railways have always used this gauge, although I have no idea why.

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#60 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 04:46

<>

A pity Monaco didn't even think of it !
As a results, The Principauté was invaded during WWII and also (who remembers ?) blocussed by général De Gaulle's police & customs during 1962.

#61 Rob29

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 06:05

Originally posted by jarama


Félix,

If I'm not wrong, the spanish width of the train lines, similar to the russian but different in most cases of European countries, is as old as the train himself, and in any case we're speaking of the reign of Isabel II or maybe Alfonso XII - about 100 years before Franco and Hitler meet each other at Hendaya. For sure, the reason of this different width was the same you're arguing, by all accounts, protect Spain from an invassion via railway.

Carles.

True,but I seem to remember there was(maybe still is) a system at Hendaye whereby at least the overnight sleeper from Paris was lifted from its bogies(wheels) by cranes( with the passengers hopefully sleeping!) and placed on 5ft 3 bogies on an adjacent track. If this existed in 1939,I guess Franco would have disconected it!

#62 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 07:14

I was told (I never got there...) that the carriages are still lifted and the bogies changed on the spot... with the passengers still inside.

When did Spain get railways, anyway? Was it before or after the American Civil War?

#63 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 07:20

I think you guys are all off track! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

#64 jarama

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 22:01

Originally posted by Ray Bell


When did Spain get railways, anyway? Was it before or after the American Civil War?


Ray,

the first spanish railway was the Barcelona - Mataró (a mere 40 kms NE from Barcelona), and dates back from 1848.

Carles.

#65 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 July 2002 - 01:11

In early 1940, The Light Car was reporting that Germany and Italy were considering setting up their own alternative to the AIACR. A meeting took place in Merano, Switzerland where this was discussed, along with the International Formula.

Quoting Reuters, Germany was reported to have promised to send competitors to Tripoli and the Italian GP. A German press agency was the source for reports that both Mercedes and Auto Union were going to the Coppa Ciano and Coppa Acerbo, as well as the GPs: note that Tripoli was definitely for voiturettes only.

The Coppa Ascoli, scheduled originally as a sports car race for June 2nd 1940, was rescheduled as a race for cars running on producer gas. I wonder if that one ever happened?

I also have another Irish event, with top 3 results in three classes available for anyone interested (PM me please) - Donabate Speed Trials, May 4th 1940. This was stated to have been the first event in Ireland since Phoenix Park in September 1939.

I also have some more very basic details on the Vallevidrera hillclimb mentioned above.

Oh, and perhaps our Dutch friends can confirm whether or not a report that a summer 1940 race was planned for Zandvoort (presumably on the 1939 street track) had any basis in fact?

#66 AndreasF1

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Posted 19 July 2002 - 01:44

My F1 calendar:

Kyalami RSA - 1970's config
Interlagos BRA - Old
Long Beach USA
Imola IT - pre 95
Monte Carlo MC
Zandvoort NL
Montjuich Park ESP
Paul Ricard FR
Brands Hatch GB
Nurburgring GER (Nordschleife)
Oesterreichring AUT - original
Monza IT
Indianapolis USA
Macau CH
Suzuka JP
Adelaide AUS

TOTAL 16 Races

#67 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 July 2002 - 06:47

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Coppa Ascoli, scheduled originally as a sports car race for June 2nd 1940, was rescheduled as a race for cars running on producer gas. I wonder if that one ever happened?


What an interesting revelation!

On November 11, 1940 a supporting race for the Patriotic Grand Prix at Applecross, near Perth, was held for cars fitted with gas producers. I had always assumed this was the only such event ever to have been held in the world. Might be worth another thread...

#68 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 13:52

Okay, thanks to some more TNF digging, two more to add:

1?/9/40 Kronstadt GP (sports cars). Cancelled during practice due to Romanian-Hungarian political tension.

8?/9/40 Romanian GP (Bucharest?) Cancelled

And from an ongoing discussion at Racing History, a post from Allan Brown:

I've heard of a few races during WWII. Most of them were jalopy races.

IN - Indianapolis Speedway - 1944
KS - Wichita - 1943
NY - Freeport Speedway, NY - 1944
OH - Akron - 1944
OH - Harner's Track - Alliance - 1944
PA - Spring City Race Track - 1943

Apparently the only official race was the race on 11/18/1944 at the
IN - Indianapolis Speedrome - it was a midget race won by Duke Nalon
Someone in the war department lowered the ban and the owner of the Speedrome
found out about it and because he had kept his track up for the duration it
was ready to go. Duke who lived in Chicago just happened to be in Indy on
business, otherwise he wouldn't have been there. Then someone higher in the
war department or whatever found out about the accidental lifting, and
quickly reinstated the ban.


And from Gordon White:

The ODT n on auto racing went into effect, I believe, around the first
of August, 1942. It was supposed to be lifted before Christmas, 1944,
when people began to believe the war was coming to its end. A lot of
defense contracts were canceled that fall after Patton had encircled the
German army in France and the Philippines had fallen. (I have done
research in this area.) But the Battle of the Bulge in December and the
coming of the Kamikases in the Pacific brought us back to reality. The
ban was quickly reinstated. (Bill White had scheduled racing at the
Coliseum in California for January 1945 that had to be canceled.)

I recall that there were pick-up midget races at the Freeport Municipal
Stadium during the war. Not advertised and no admission charged, just
some of the guys playing on a Saturday afternoon. We heard the engines
and rode our bicycles over to have a look. Maybe two or three times. I
understand there were other races here and there. The first races at
Freeport after V-J Day were on Labor Day, 1945. (I was there.) The ban
was not officially lifted until September 16th.

My recollection is that the government did not do much enforcing of the
ban but that the gas rationing and tire shortage, plus the fact that a
lot of the drivers were in the military and that it was not considered
patriotic to go against that kind of rule, kept racing 1942-45 to just
boys playing. Of course I was 11 years old in 1944 and not taking a
nationwide survey.



#69 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 14:06

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Richard - I don't understand this either why it was accepted as "natürlich" or "of course".

The original text from AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, May 14, 1940, No. 20, pg. 1:
.....Von Deutschland abgesehen, dessen Abordnung bis zur letzten Stunde nicht bekanntgegeben war, mussten natürlich die Holländer, die Belgier, die Vereinigten Staaten, Monaco, England und Rumänien dem Kongress fernbleiben..... :)


Aha - I think I've solved the Romanian bit of this one, even if it is O/T. Until July 1st 1940, Romania was "protected" by an Anglo-French guarantee of integrity, so presumably at that point it would have been seen not as neutral but as a non-belligerent member of the Allies.

#70 uechtel

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 18:48

Originally posted by Vitesse2
[B]Okay, thanks to some more TNF digging, two more to add:

1?/9/40 Kronstadt GP (sports cars). Cancelled during practice due to Romanian-Hungarian political tension.

8?/9/40 Romanian GP (Bucharest?) Cancelled

and from the same source (Rainer Simons: BMW 328 - Vom Roadster zum Mythos):

19/5/1940 Ljubljana/YU ("Wertungsfahrt"; not necessarily a race, 1st 2nd 3rd all BMW 328)

14/8/1940 Avola/YU (2nd L. Radic - BMW 328)

6/10/1940 Benjica Race Belgrade/YU (1st L. Radic - BMW 328)

Or did we have those already?

#71 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 21:32

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....And from an ongoing discussion at Racing History, a post from Allan Brown.....


Allan Brown?

Who's he?

#72 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 22:51

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Allan Brown?

Who's he?


Editor and publisher of the National Speedway Directory and general guru on the history of American tracks.

Not the same person as Allen Brown!

#73 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 23:14

Clearly not...

Glad you cleared that up. Allen does post on other fora... some might have thought, well, you know...

#74 BRG

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 13:27

An interesting thread - I especially likes the diversion into railway history! The only countries that I can think of that have not been mentioned, which might have had some racing during the war years are Sweden and Portugal. Has anyone any ideas about them?

#75 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 15:21

Yes, there was races in Sweden, on ice.
Due to petrol shortage, the cars was fitted with "generator-gas", I can't find an english word for this in my dictionary - It's a sort of gas engine, a huge barrell mounted at the front of the car and the fuel is coal or (mostly) firewood.

Slow cars...

Finland and Russia also has wider railway tracks, 1600 mm IIRC. I have been on a train at the Russian/Chinese border when they changed boogies. A very smooth operation, we hardly noticed the work and it was done for the whole train in less than an hour.

Stefan

#76 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 20:56

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Yes, there was races in Sweden, on ice.
Due to petrol shortage, the cars was fitted with "generator-gas", I can't find an english word for this in my dictionary - It's a sort of gas engine, a huge barrell mounted at the front of the car and the fuel is coal or (mostly) firewood.

Slow cars...


The term is 'Gas Producers,' Stefan...

I have mentioned them earlier in relation to the supporting event for the Patriotic Grand Prix held at Applecross. There was a Bentley, as I recall (John Medley?), that ran at Bathurst with one as well... I think at the 1940 race.

Another racing connection with gas producers is that Eldred Norman, the delightfully eccentric South Australian driver of home-built wares, turned out his own very neat brand of these during the war.

Moreover, he used one when he went on his honeymoon. Refuelling was done, at one time, on the side of the road where a bushfire had cut through the trees and left the right kind of charcoal to help him along his way.

One day Bronnie might finish off her mother's book about this great man...

#77 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 21:22

Must be a future for gas-producers in Australia, after all those bush-fires recently...
(No, should not make a joke of this disaster for so many people :blush: )

Stefan

#78 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 22:09

Combined with the present price of petrol... you might be right!

Bushfires are a part of our environment. They happen every year... it's just a matter of how much impact they make and where they are.

#79 WDH74

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 01:24

Hi-
Been nosing about here and read this thread with interest, and have a question: Do lakes events count? In Dean Batchelor's "The American Hot Rod" there are a couple of photos of lakes competitors taken in early June 1942. These weren't people sneaking out there, but full, sanctioned timing events. Plus, speed events were still going on in the years before this, before the US joined the war, but when Europe was certainly embroiled.
Just thought I'd ask!
-William

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#80 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 04:25

It all counts...

If it was during the conflict, then it should be listed here.

#81 Magee

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 05:34

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Yes, there was races in Sweden, on ice.
Due to petrol shortage, the cars was fitted with "generator-gas", I can't find an english word for this in my dictionary - It's a sort of gas engine, a huge barrell mounted at the front of the car and the fuel is coal or (mostly) firewood.

Slow cars...

Finland and Russia also has wider railway tracks, 1600 mm IIRC. I have been on a train at the Russian/Chinese border when they changed boogies. A very smooth operation, we hardly noticed the work and it was done for the whole train in less than an hour.

Stefan


Stefan,
The word for the wheel apparatus on a train is a bogie. The word "boogie" has different meanings such as a dance form from the 1920-30s, going fast such as "Let's boogie", a scary person such as a "Boogie man", and the hard stuff in one's nose.

#82 David McKinney

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 07:07

The scary guy was always the "bogeyman" when I was a kid, and the nasal product a "bogey"
Maybe another of those Transatlantic variations?

#83 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:13

"Did someone mention me?"

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#84 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 13:27

Oh Boy, I have invented a dancing train! While on the train and Australia subject - what is the railway gauge in Oz? I suppose in such a big country, train can run transverse...

Stefan

#85 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 13:50

Across the Nullarbor, perhaps, Stefan...

Well, the first railways were in NSW, built to the pommie gauge of 4' 8.5"... but Victoria decided that it would be better to have the broad gauge, 5' 3"... which they reckoned was wise also after the American Civil War, where invasion of state after state was facilitated by similar railway gauges.

South Australia, Queensland and Western Australia - all poorer states - opted for the less expensive narrow gauge, 3' 6"... and Tasmania did because of the terrain.

But... a bit of NSW rain intruded into Queensland so they could run an express train and freight trains to Brisbane... in the early sixties a standard gauge line was put down from Albury to Melbourne so express trains and freight could run from Sydney to Melbourne and return... and across to Adelaide there was a 5' 3" line out of Victoria for similar reasons.

And the Commonwealth Government, as a part of the deal done to convince Western Australia to become part of Australia, put down a standard gauge line from Port Augusta (or was it Adelaide?) to Kalgoorlie, where the 3' 6" line out of Perth ended. This was subsequently extended to Perth, anyway, and later the other end was extended to meet the NSW network at Broken Hill so trains could run from Sydney to Perth on the one line.

Now a new line is coming down from Darwin to Alice Springs to meet the 'Ghan' line from the Alice to Adelaide, which is standard gauge too. This will enable shipping to turn around at Darwin and return north while 3km long trains will take containers stacked two-high at 120kmh from Darwin to Parkes in western NSW, where it can all be broken down and sent hither and thither before a ship could have reached Melbourne or Sydney.

And in the canefields of northern NSW and Queensland there are numerous little light rail setups on about 2' gauge. Don't quote me on that dimension though...

#86 dmj

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 16:39

Originally posted by uechtel


and from the same source (Rainer Simons: BMW 328 - Vom Roadster zum Mythos):

19/5/1940 Ljubljana/YU ("Wertungsfahrt"; not necessarily a race, 1st 2nd 3rd all BMW 328)

14/8/1940 Avola/YU (2nd L. Radic - BMW 328)

6/10/1940 Benjica Race Belgrade/YU (1st L. Radic - BMW 328)

Or did we have those already?


I don't know about these races but names probably should be "Avala" and "Banjica", as both are parts of Belgrade...

#87 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 10:31

Brun posted these in the 1939 thread, but they fit in here too. These are the minutes of the Merano meeting previously mentioned in posts by Hans, Tony and myself. The intention appears to have been to set up an Axis alternative to the AIACR. Mercedes and Auto Union were represented, as were Alfa Romeo. But not Maserati. :confused:

Posted Image

Posted Image

There are confirmations too - note that this says the Coppa Ciano and Coppa Acerbo were definitely to be for Formula cars, unlike one or two of the press reports.

The Italian GP OTOH was to be for Voiturettes, but from my rusty German and looking at the subsequent press reports it looks to me like Huhnlein must have been "persuading" them to switch it to Formula cars as he didn't consider it to be a Grand Prix, so they compromised and agreed to hold the GP for Formula cars and a Milan GP for the Voiturettes: that of course raises the fascinating prospect of a double assault by Mercedes Benz! And by AU? Seems not, if Dr Bruhn's annotations are to be believed. :

Interesting that the German GP was planned for October, not its usual August date. That's the first date I've seen for it, but I'd assumed August as normal.

And a nice bit of attempted disinformation from Alfa Romeo here: they are claiming that they wouldn't have a car available for Formula races, which is why they wanted 1500cc racing again. They must have figured that the 158s now had the measure of the W165s, and if not there was the 512, which the final paragraph mentions as "private information". But that also reveals that AU knew about the 162 too!

Fascinating .... thanks Brun!

#88 petefenelon

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 11:09

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Editor and publisher of the National Speedway Directory and general guru on the history of American tracks.

Not the same person as Allen Brown!


Or indeed Alan Brown ;)

pete

#89 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 11:30

Casualties of war: these events were all on the 1939 International calendar published at the end of 1938:

September
2 Tourist Trophy, GB (Donington)
3 La Baule GP, France
4 Pontedecimo Giovi, Italy
9 Phoenix Park GP, Eire [this one went ahead]
9 Shelsley Walsh hillclimb, GB
10 Italian GP [Formula race with a Milan GP originally scheduled for Voiturettes]
10 Paris 12 Hours, Montlhery
14-15 Berlin-Rome Rally
16 Brooklands meeting, GB
17 Vienna GP, Germany [Formula race]
24 Masaryk GP, Czechoslovakia
30 Donington GP, GB [Formula race]

October
1 Feleac hillclimb, Romania
7 London GP, Crystal Palace
8 Prix de Zurich [Voiturette] & GP of the National Exhibition [Formula race]
8 Rio GP, Brazil
14 Autumn meeting, Brooklands

Another couple of events of which I was not previously aware were a Polish GP and International Endurance Trial, scheduled for June 10th to 18th. The GP was presumably to be held at Lwow?

#90 David McKinney

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 12:06

The only other reference I've ever seen to a 1939 Polish Grand Prix was a claim that it was won by Tadek Merak, later Aston Martin's engine designer

#91 dmj

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 13:22

Originally posted by David McKinney
The only other reference I've ever seen to a 1939 Polish Grand Prix was a claim that it was won by Tadek Merak, later Aston Martin's engine designer

It should be Tadek Marek , of course...

#92 anjakub

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 15:43

Originally posted by Vitesse
Another couple of events of which I was not previously aware were a Polish GP and International Endurance Trial, scheduled for June 10th to 18th. The GP was presumably to be held at Lwow?


Of course, in 1939 we had the Grand Prix Polski (Polish GP), but...
that event was a rally.

The mentioned event - Rajd Polski (Polish Rally) is the second oldest rally after Rallye Monte Carlo on the world. A story began in 1921.
In 1939 Polish Rally had length 4343 km (4 stages), started 38 crews, finished 31.
Winners (without general classification) :
category 1000 cc: Renato Ghisalba (I) Fiat 1100
category 2000 cc: Stefan Gosman (PL) Citroen
category 3000 cc: Stefan Pronaszki (PL) Renault Primaquatre
category over 3000 cc: Tadeusz Marek (PL) Chevrolet

#93 David McKinney

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 15:53

Thankyou Andrzej :up:
I've long wondered if it might have been a rally

#94 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 18:22

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Johore 1500cc race

1 CO Jennings (MG TC)
2 Chia Eng Quee (1098cc Wong Silver Arrow)
3 S Theraviara (MG TC)

Anyone know what the Wong Silver Arrow was?


I think I might just have found it! Well, not the actual car .... :lol:

1098cc is probably a typo for 1087cc, since Chia Eng Quee apparently purchased the engine from Mick Jennings' MG K3. That car was originally the Goldie Gardner K3, c/n 3007, which was used in various races and record runs. Its original engine ended up in the K135 record car but it was fitted with a new one when Jennings bought it: he ran it in both the Gap hill climb and the Johore GP in 1940. It spent most of the war dismantled and the chassis ended up as a trailer but the engine is now back in Britain ....

#95 David McKinney

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 18:53

Maybe so, Richard, but contemporary reports described the Wong Silver Arrow as "Fiat-based"
(Sorry, seem to have missed making that point first time round)

#96 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 19:11

Well, 1098 must still be a typo, since the Balilla engine was only 1089cc :p

Incidentally, research elsewhere indicates there were at least tentative plans for a 1941 Tripoli GP ....

#97 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 13:09

It appears there may have been at least one rally over the winter of 1939/40 in Ireland. The list of Hewison Trophy winners (now awarded for autotests, but originally for rallies) shows Paddy Le Fanu for 1940.

http://www.motorspor...cument/AppY.pdf

Of course, it might have been awarded for points gathered before September 1939, but that would require research in Irish press reports, methinks.

#98 Mal9444

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 17:33

Er... forgive me if I have hold of the wrong end of the stick here, please.

I have only just opened and come to this thread, intrigued by the title, and have not read all the posts since 01 when it began (although I have scanned through all the pages). I've seen loads of information about American racing in 1940, 41 and 42 - but nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that America wasn't actually in what we in Europe call the Second World War until the beginning of 1942. In fact, most American references to WW2 give the dates of that conflict as 1942-45.

Am I just being pedantic here?

Presumably in cataloging what motor sport went on during the war we are also pondering why did motor sport stop during war-time? Presumably that was partly because of the need to save petrol for activities directly linked to prosecuting the war, and partly because the moral climate would have changed and disapproved of young men indulging in such frivolous pursuits when there were more serious pursuits calling. (Yacht racing, in the UK at least, was also stopped during the war, for much the same reasons: to prevent the diversion of much needed resource, both human and material, into frivolous activity when in the words of Eric Bogle's marvelous and moving song - albeit about the First world War - 'there's work to be done.')

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the reasons behind the thread. Maybe it's just about listing motor sport events worldwide between 3rd September 1939 and June 1945.

But whatever the reason for the thread - America was not at war during the first two-and-a-quaretr years of that period.

Again - forgive me if you have all already dealt with this issue.

#99 WDH74

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 20:46

"Perhaps I'm reading too much into the reasons behind the thread. Maybe it's just about listing motor sport events worldwide between 3rd September 1939 and June 1945."

I think this is the case, as I also read this as being simply a list of racing that went on between '39 and '45, certainly back when I posted to this thread! Good question, though, and one I don't recall being addressed.

Technically, the United States entered the war on December 8, 1941, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, and Germany declared war against the U.S. on the eleventh of that month. This is, of course, less than a month away from 1942, and probably the reason that many people quote the years '42-'45.


-Wm.

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#100 Tim Murray

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 21:01

Originally posted by Mal9444
. . . Eric Bogle's marvelous and moving song . . .

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

(Sorry - couldn't resist. Back to the topic.)