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Stronger moderation please!?


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#1 Superbar

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 15:08

Hi!

Why don't we/you do something about the tiresome fan and anti-fan flame sessions in the "readers comment" forum? The other forum's are nice and comfy, to the point most of the time. Does it really have to be the konstant "Ralf's a nancy" "Kimi a sissy" "Juan got balls but no brains" and so on.... :( it's so repulsive seeing thread after thread being infested with the mindless banter of the fanboys. For only one example, take the tread about Ralf's wedding The treads author was forced to take the role of moderator, but why no official moderation?

I happen to read and contribute in a forum about DVD/HT/movies that's heavily moderated. Sure some people take offence about being told what's alright and what's not, but on the whole it's a very nice place for serious diskussions. All thanks to the moderators.

Does the Atlas forum really nead the kind of freadom that allows room for the "keaboard warriors" that there are now? Don't they already have newsgroups like rec.autos.sport.f1 to fight?


Oh, well. I'm only a lurker who hasn't contributed much to the forums. I only hope this post will start a healthy debate on the subject and that there are some other members that also think that "something must be done" :)

Thanks for listening.

Jörgen

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#2 Pascal

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 15:24

Believe it or not, there is already a pretty high level of moderation in the forum. Many things are not allowed, but being tactless is not, to some extent, among them. You accuse the Hosts of not being there in the thread cited as an example, and yet you gave us only 6 minutes to intervene before the topic starter made known that she was expecting a bit of restraint. Given the fact that the offending member apologised, no further action was necessary.

You may also understand that the very high volume of posts in Readers' Comments makes it a difficult forum to monitor in real-time. If you believe some things have been overlooked by the Hosts, you are perfectly free to point them out to them, either by sending them a private message, or by e-mailing admin@atlasf1.com.

#3 Superbar

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 15:35

Originally posted by Pascal
Believe it or not, there is already a pretty high level of moderation in the forum. Many things are not allowed, but being tactless is not, to some extent, among them. You accuse the Hosts of not being there in the thread cited as an example, and yet you gave us only 6 minutes to intervene before the topic starter made known that she was expecting a bit of restraint. Given the fact that the offending member apologised, no further action was necessary.


I used the Ralf thread as an example, it was never my intention to point fingers or accuse anyone. I appologize if that's the impression, and if I have indeed been taktless.

Originally posted by Pascal
You may also understand that the very high volume of posts in Readers' Comments makes it a difficult forum to monitor in real-time. If you believe some things have been overlooked by the Hosts, you are perfectly free to point them out to them, either by sending them a private message, or by e-mailing admin@atlasf1.com.


I'm not looking to bring up individual cases. What I want is to bring up a diskussion about what's appropiate, what level the forum should be at. It was not intended as personal critisism of the host or anyone else of the Atlas F1 staff. If I'm out of order I appologize.

Jörgen

#4 The Swerve

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 16:46

Perhaps when you've been around long enough to make more than 6 posts you'll have a better idea of how things work here.

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 16:52

He could have been lurking for 2 years before he started posting, dont be a jerk

#6 The Swerve

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 16:55

Whatever, Ross. :up:

#7 garth_b

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Posted 07 October 2001 - 20:52

I have seen this sort of discussion on other fora. The consensus I took from the discussion was that moderation needs to be fair, evenhanded and light. Most of us are adults here. I think the level of moderation on this board is fine. Members should be free to post their views within the reasonable bounds this board has defined. If you see a thread title you believe is flame bait or inflammatory, then moderate it yourself by not reading it. If you find a particular poster is constantly flamebaiting, then moderate them yourself by not reading their posts.

The US has, as part of their constitution, the right to free speech. I am not a US citizen but believe that this is an inherent part of a working and healthy democracy. I have seen the moderation in action on this board and I, for one, am happy with it. To all the AtlasF1 moderators a big :up: and thank you for your continued good work.

#8 Wolf

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 00:44

I think this Board is running quite good in the hands of people that run it without posters getting too involved. Anyway, if poster decides to make an ass of himself (like declaring JPM God of F1 ere the latter has completed a lap in the race :p) so be it... Why would he be helped by the admins to look less ass than he is? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however unsubstantiated it may be, and be free to express it. As one Forum host once said- 'It is acceptable to disagree, to be disagreeable is not.' Besides, most things even themselves in the course of time (OMG, now I'm sounding ying-yangish :eek: ).

As a footnote, none of my posts ever got deleted or edited, and it's not only because of my good looks.;)

#9 silver fan

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 07:11

Originally posted by Pascal
Many things are not allowed, but being tactless is not.....


Well that's a relief to know. :p

#10 Pascal

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 07:27

Originally posted by silver fan
Well that's a relief to know. :p


It seems to me that you missed the "to some extent" part. :p

Don't push it too far then... :rolleyes:

#11 bira

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 13:11

muppet, why don't we actually show people what it is exactly that you are complaining about?

This is what you posted which was deleted:

Originally posted by muppet
Well, Hunt The Shunt, that's an interesting first post you've made here. Speaking for myself, I really don't think we need poisonous, spiteful, fingerpointing stuff like that here. So why don't make your first post your last!! Just butt out!

Again, speaking personally, why don't you just **** off to a different forum where ****-stirring ferrets like you will be welcome.


Now, you claim your post is valid. In itself - it would be deleted ANY DAY, ANY TIME, BY ANY HOST, IN ANY FORUM on Atlas F1. And yes, another one of sorts will get you banned. I've no interest to provide service to people with inability to argue their points without resorting to the language you use.

But I'll humour you nonetheless.

You say that post was in reply to "a thread demanding retribution on Frank Williams and Patrick Head for deliberately murdering Ayrton Senna".

Now this is the post you were replying to:

Originally posted by Hunt the Shunt Fan
Hi! I'm new to the forum and I hope you don't mind the question:

Was there any retribution towards Frank Williams/Patrick Head after Senna's death? I'm not talking about the trial they faced in Italy. I'm just wondering if there were any people in Formula 1 that held Williams personally responsible and wanted them to pay. It seems to me if the greatest F1 driver died in your F1 car then you should be greatly punished -- kicked out of F1 and ostracized by the racing community.

Thanks


So.... no demand, and no accusation of murder. A simple - rather naive - inquirement which is PERFECTLY valid. If a court of law in Italy can make a similar case, then a poster cannot ask such a question? In both cases the final "verdict" can be - no, they're not responsible and they shouldn't be punished. But bringing up the question in itself and discussing it is VALID.


Considering you've now had two hosts explaining this to you, I am genuinely hoping you get the point. If not - too bad. You can either accept these guidelines or take your own advice in the above-mentioned post.

#12 Superbar

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 13:22

It would seem everyone's happy the way it is, more or less. Never mind then.... :cool:

Swerve and Ross: I've been lurking about on the forums regularly for a year or so. Been reading Atlas F1 since I went online in November '96. Didn't bother register in the forums until I had to subscribe for the Atlas F1 Magazine. The reason I started this thread in the first place is because I think the forum climate has declined. But thats just me, apparantly.

Jörgen

#13 Pascal

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 14:18

:confused: :confused: :confused:

A quick visit to www.dictionary.com might be helpful...

[b]ret·ri·bu·tion[/b]

n. 

1. Something justly deserved; recompense. 

2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment. 

3. [u][i]Theology[/i][/u]. Punishment or reward distributed in a future life based on performance in

   this one.

I see nowhere mentioned kneecappings or fist fights in those definitions. I believe you might be watching too many movies about the mafia... :p

#14 Rene

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 17:06

Sometimes people just don't see it I guess....

#15 Mosquito

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 18:57

Couldn't help to put in my 2 cents being part of the ~old fart~ gang.



Originally posted by muppet
As I say, the post was just flame-bait and I took the bait.
My very angrily worded response was about right. I was surprised so many other Atlasers dignified the thread with reasoned replies. To me, the first post and the whole following thread thread should have been canned....

The fact that you took it as being flame-bait does not mean it is, or that the original poster had the intention to bait other posters. Obviously a lot of people had a different view on the post than your's, else there would not have been so many 'reasoned replies'.

Sometimes some member posts a question and/or statement, and all of a sudden you see people jumping on the poster for posting 'flame-bait' or being an 'arsehole' while the poster was sincerely trying to raise a point instead of stirring up shit.
Please do remember that a lot of people do not have English as their native language. They can at times come over rather blunt, purely because they lack the lingual skills to put it down eloquently enough, especially when we are dealing with ~touchy~ subjects.

At the same time, there's enough flame-bait sneekily disguised as a ~well reasoned~ point. The question is: When does something move from a controversial issue / argument into pure flame-bait? Most is a gray area where I personally try to grant posters the benefit of the doubt, even if that means this person will be chuckling behind his computer for seeing me 'reasoning' on his flame-bait.
So be it....


Another important issue is that I DO MIND you trying to chase away members. I don't care if you 'are speaking on a personal note' or not, this forum is open to ANY F1 fan, and being allowed in, or chased away is not some democratic process where the 'Royalty' or 'Established majority' can pick up the votes or start their own personal cruisade against individual posters.
The rules on this (and all other issues related to personal debates)are very clear on this, and with good reason.



And on the general point of moderation: I think the current moderation is extremely well done. The thing is: The better it is done, the less you notice it. The fact that there is no (obvious) heavy moderation means that the moderators are doing an excellent job in keeping discussion within reason and good taste.

Of course, Atlas has always been pretty lenient on what is allowed, and what not. If one reads (old and new) threads carefully, you will notice a lot of content which is in the ~gray~ area of permissable.
From personal experience I can honestly say that in most cases I was either on forehand asked if I could chill it down a bit, or shortly afterwards informed of the removal of my content.

If a couple of (having many posts means you WILL have made the occasional ****-ups as well :)) PM's and emails that start like:

'Dear Mosquito,

Some of your your post in the xxxxx thread was deleted because ....

I hope you understand why this was deleted.

Regards,
yyyy


Or:


Mosquito,

I know you mean no harm, but please refrain from.....

Best,
zzzz


Etc, etc...

This is the personal behind the scenes moderation which we do NOT see happening, and is part of the big effort put into this website by all admins / hosts.


Just go to other F1 / CART / NASCAR forums, and you will be suprised on what you will read on a lot of them. Atlas is among the best moderated forums on the net, I'm convinced of that.

#16 bira

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 19:21

Originally posted by Mosquito
If a couple of (having many posts means you WILL have made the occasional ****-ups as well :)) PM's and emails that start like:

'Dear Mosquito,

Some of your your post in the xxxxx thread was deleted because ....

I hope you understand why this was deleted.

Regards,
yyyy


Or:


Mosquito,

I know you mean no harm, but please refrain from.....

Best,
zzzz


Etc, etc...


That must apply to the other hosts. I'm never that polite! :lol:

#17 Boston Killer

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 19:32

Originally posted by Mosquito
...Atlas is among the best moderated forums on the net, I'm convinced of that...



Agreed! I am the author of quiet a few **** ups and although I never recived an email telling me about my posts being deleted, I assume it was for the best in most cases. Anyway Atlas BB is the best I've seen and those people (admins) work hard to keep it that way.

#18 Mosquito

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 19:41

Originally posted by bira


That must apply to the other hosts. I'm never that polite! :lol:

You are right.;)

I have a special archive that contains little poetic gems like:
.......I don't really see it as my job to message you and explain to you in private why you are a twat......

Damn, I never imagined I could read that and laugh about it!;) :lol: :lol:

#19 Pascal

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Posted 08 October 2001 - 19:57

Originally posted by Mosquito
...little poetic gems...


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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#20 Andy

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Posted 09 October 2001 - 21:38

Can I come out of retirement for one day just to kick Mossie's butt again?? :lol: :lol:

#21 Mosquito

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Posted 09 October 2001 - 21:53

Originally posted by Andy
Can I come out of retirement for one day just to kick Mossie's butt again?? :lol: :lol:

Again????!!!! Pig's arse!!!! :lol:

Don't make me dive deep into my archives and make you look like a whoosh!!!! :lol: :lol:

#22 Nustang70

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Posted 09 October 2001 - 21:56

this place in moderated plenty. i have had posts deleted that i (in my opinion) could see no reason for it, other than perhaps evoking too strong a reaction out of whomever i directed it too. But the moderaters to a good job, i rarely see a truly vulgar or offensive post last long, and if it does, the other posters pounce all over the offender anyway.

#23 Andy

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Posted 10 October 2001 - 15:00

Originally posted by Mosquito
Again????!!!! Pig's arse!!!! :lol:
Don't make me dive deep into my archives and make you look like a whoosh!!!! :lol: :lol:

:p :p :p

One common question I would get when I was moderating the RC was "Why was my post deleted? I didn't say anything wrong but was simply responding to what Poster X wrote." In many cases this person was right, there was nothing wrong with what they had written however there was something wrong with what Poster X wrote and his/her post was deleted. When this happens I would then have to go through the entire thread and also remove any other posts, valid or not, which directly referred to the deleted post in order to have the thread still make sense to the rest of the world.

Before coming down hard on the forum Host for deleting an innocent post of yours, re-read the thread and see if the post your post was referring to is even still there or not. If not, then you can Thank the Host for helping you to not look foolish by appearing to respond to something that is not even there!;)

I have had the privilege of being the Host on the RC forum and, therefore, have full appreciation for what mel, Williams, Pascal and the other Admins who help out with RC have to deal with on a daily basis. I also understand that the majority of Posters here have not had this experience and, therefore, cannot fully appreciate what the job entails.

As I have said to those who critisize the moderation here, on a number of occasions, a simple example is this: You get to pick and choose which threads you want to read and participate in, the Hosts do not. The Hosts MUST read and follow every thread in their forum to the best of their ability. This is a very arduous task which takes a special kind of person to be able to perform this, up to par, on a daily basis. It is often a fine line the Host must walk between what the Owners of the BB will allow and what the Users of the BB will consider censorship.

It's like a movie soundtrack, if it is done right you should not even notice the music while watching the film, if you find youself watching a movie and listening to the music, it wasn't done right. Same for the BB; If you rarely notice the Host's presence and yet all seems under control in the forum, they are doing it right. From what I see in RC now, the current Hosts are making the impossible look easy, and keeping the forum well on the straight and narrow. :up:

#24 Wolbo

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Posted 10 October 2001 - 16:37

[good guy mode]
While I have had a few encounters with one or two of the hosts and we don't always seem to be on the same wavelength I think that by and large they are doing a splendid job of running this Board. It's always easy to find some examples where the Hosts may have gotten it wrong in one way or another but these are exceptions to the rule and there is almost always a good balance beween too lenient or too strict. My compliments for a job well done. :up:
[/good guy mode]

#25 smarty

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Posted 10 October 2001 - 17:01

Originally posted by Andy
I also understand that the majority of Posters here have not had this experience and, therefore, cannot fully appreciate what the job entails.


I especially appreciate it when they have to read the threads incuding spoilers about movies, books, races, etc :lol: Really what happens then? I imagine such a scene:

Pitty to Pascal: "I haven't read Harry Potter III yet. Could you check out the HP thread for me?"

Pascal: "No way, let's call mel" ;)

#26 mel

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Posted 10 October 2001 - 18:10

:)

#27 Superbar

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 14:21

Let me say that I'm very happy about this post by Bira :up:

:cool:

Jörgen

#28 berge

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Posted 16 October 2001 - 01:47

about the post by bira

why stop at gay bashing. x driver is gay, blah blah. how about fat bashing. is it okay to call somebody fat but not gay. have you heard some of the names ron dennis or flavio briatore are called in the rc. is that going to stop too.
or just the gay bashing. because its the pc thing to do.

#29 bira

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Posted 16 October 2001 - 02:35

berge you're way off.

I didn't wake up one morning and decided that gay bashing isn't nice, but fat bashing is. I follow the trends of the forum.

Over a year ago there was an influx of bashing on a specific Dutch driver. Every single combination possible of his name, gravel and crash was contrieved to the extent that it was simply not possible to discuss this driver (or anyone else) without some childish post made only for the relish of its poster in making up yet another derogatory name.

I made a similar announcement forbidding it thereafter. It calmed down and it doesn't reappear in flood-dosages as back then.

The same happened with this 'Nancy Boy' trend. It became too overwhelmingly disgusting. When I spend a couple of hours cleaning (editing or deleting) up 114 (!) posts made within 48 hours with reference to 'Nancy Boy', then I know I got a problem here.

It deteriorates the discussion to the extent that not a single thread could actually go by without such childish, imbecile remarks. Bashing of drivers and team owners is not prohibited - I said it before and I'll say it again: they're in the public eye, they're 'fair game'. But everything has to be done in reasonable dosage. When something becomes an epidemic, it must be stopped and it can only be stopped altogether in one blow, if you are to go back to normalcy.

Hence, If I see a similar trend developing on fat people - as per your example - then I'll put a stop to it in the same nature.

If you don't believe that, then either you haven't been around here long enough, or you don't know how we work at all.

Cheers,

Bira

#30 A3

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Posted 16 October 2001 - 08:36

Originally posted by bira
Over a year ago there was an influx of bashing on a specific Dutch driver. Every single combination possible of his name, gravel and crash was contrieved to the extent that it was simply not possible to discuss this driver (or anyone else) without some childish post made only for the relish of its poster in making up yet another derogatory name.


Now who would that be?? :drunk:

It gave me quite a few headaches back then....;)

Bira, Pascal, Pitbabe, Mel, Williams, Babbel & Desmo, here is to you: :up: :up:

#31 JollyRoger

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Posted 21 October 2001 - 13:47

I have to say that this is without doubt the best set of forum's I know of. Myself and a lot of other people left ITV-F1's forum because the admins did nothing for a long time about the problems it had. I can't say I use this forum itself that much as I usually look in the tech forum (I don't post that much because desmo etc know a LOT more than me - usually I'm asking questions), but from what I've seen this place is perfect. Just the right level of leniancy and the right level of moderation.

Don't change it if you want my opinion.

#32 King Sputum

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Posted 22 October 2001 - 09:44

My opinion (worth of 0):
- Basically, one idea of Internet is the the page owners decide how the pages are run. So, if someone doesn't like pages, she/he can feel free to go somewhere else or go buy PHP for dummies book and create own bulletin board.

#33 markzed

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Posted 30 October 2001 - 03:36

I haven't spent time at any other forum, so I wouldn't know the difference if I sat on it.
I have had some posts deleted without explanation, but I'm not so stupid as to not figure out why.

I think the admins can be touchy when it comes to complaints about their moderating actions, but they're running the show - so I'm happy to live with it.