26 replies to this topic

[rod]

Does anyone have any pictures of the 'backmarkers' at the Oulton Park Gold Cup of 1960? I'm particularly interested in Ian Burgess' Lotus Maserati.

This was the first motor race I ever attended, and it was Burgess' car which cemented my interest in F1. Not that it was particularly quick, or reliable (it wasn't either of these), but because it was a Maserati, and, most importantly, because it was RED! But, as time passes and memory fades, I'm beginning to question this. There were, of course, 2 Cooper Maseratis in the race, which were assuredly red, but as neither of them progressed beyond the 1st lap, I can't see how these could have made such a lasting impression on me. And the JBW Maserati I remember as being very ugly, and green.

(Oddly enough, I can't remember the RRA at all, as, being the sole front-engined car, it ought to have stuck in my mind. The following year, the Furgusson planted itself firmly in my memory because of its front engine.)

And a supplementary question - do any of you Lotus chassis buffs know what happened to Burgess' car, and whether it still exists? I know it was sold to Starrabba who raced it with a different Maserati engine, but what then? We've recently seen the rebirth of a Lotus Alfa Romeo at historic events, so what chance of ever seeing a Lotus Maserati again?

[David McKinney]

I'll have a go at answering your Lotus-Maser question when I get home in a few hours.
In the meantime, I believe the RRA in question would have been a rear-engined one (Cooper-Alta)

[David McKinney]

OK, I'm back where my records are.
The short answer, as I suspected, is that I don't know where the car in question is.
Furthermore, whether or not Starrabba raced this particular car is in some doubt. Doug Nye gives its number as 902 (the ex-Burgess car) but the F1 Register quotes both 905 (which was originally a Climax-powered Centro-Sud car) and 908 (the Camoradi car, which Burgess also drove). Car 905 was in the USA about ten years ago, and 908 was offered at auction in the UK in 1995.
As to the likelihood of seeing a Lotus-Maserati 18 in action, all I can say is there was one in Switzerland about a dozen years ago. In the meantime, in addition to the Alfa-powered car already mentioned, a Borgward-powered 18 frequently turns out in European historic races.

[rod]

I never realised there was a rear engined RRA, but I just looked this up and you are absolutely right - the old Paul Emery Cooper Connaught. Presumably it looked sufficiently like the 'real' Coopers for me not to notice or remember it.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by David McKinney
In the meantime, in addition to the Alfa-powered car already mentioned, a Borgward-powered 18 frequently turns out in European historic races.

David: presumably that is - or is alleged - to be one of the BKL cars?

[David McKinney]

No, Vits, it's the other one (or alleged to be) - the car raced by Helmut Menzler in South Africa

[Roger Clark]

this is the first corner of the race. It's intersting to see how many you can identify, but I thin the Centro-Sud Maserati engined cars are the dark coloured ones right at the back.

It's also interesting what a bad start Moss has made from pole position.

[David McKinney]

Repro's not the best, Roger - I can only identify the first 12 before they get too blurry

[fines]

Moss could've started backwards at Oulton, and would still have won...

Without checking the entry list, the "body language" of the frontrunners is clear to see: Brabham, Clark, McLaren, Surtees, Hill... but who's the guy directly in front of Moss, could it be Bonnier? I can see no beard...

[fines]

Hmm, the entry list says it's Ireland in the # 4 Lotus...

So make that: Brabham, Clark, McLaren, Ireland, Bonnier, Hill, Moss, Surtees, Salvadori, Taylor, Flockhart, Halford, Gurney... The rest I'll leave to the experts...;)

[David McKinney]

That's what I made it, Michael.
The car obscured by Flockhart and Halford might by the JBW - looks like Naylor's hat, though I have to admit what can be seen of the car looks more Cooper than JBW.
But it does seem that Rod's Lotus-Maserati is the only starter not in the shot!

[rod]

Great photo Roger!

From the point of view of my original thread, I wish you'd snapped the shutter a couple of seconds later - I guess you didn't have an automatic camera in those days, but I'm thankful that you had a camera at all.

Now that 8W has abandoned its monthly who what where etc. section, wouldn't it be great to see more 'mystery' photos like this on TNF. Anyway, I'll go along with Fines and David on the 12 - looks very like Ireland's helmet on no.4 and Bonnier's face looks recognisable, and pleanty of shadow which could be beard. So, that leaves 3 unidentified cars (13th, 15th and 16th places), from a possible 5:

Burgess - Lotus Maser
Naylor - JBW Maser
Richards - RRA
Trintignant - Cooper Maser
Gregory - Cooper Maser

I would say the 13th place car (obscured by the 2 Coopers ) looks like a spindly Cooper of the T43 variety, and therefore must be the RRA. (Further checking into the RRA saga has taught me that the RRA was indeed a T43, and not the Paul Emery Cooper Connaught T45, as I thought earlier).

As for Naylor's hat, I'd say that looks like the guy in 16th place, and the general lumpiness at the front and rear of the car suggests JBW.

Which leaves the dark (red?) car in 15th place, and if we agree that the elusive Lotus Maser isn't in shot, this must be, as Roger suggests, one of the Cooper Masers. And if you remember that amusing thread a while back about how Masten Gregory looks incredibly similar to Maria-Teresa de Filippis, I'd say this was him.

So, David, have you spotted another car that I can't see? Is that smudge to the left of the group of marshals a car? If so, it seems to be too far down the shot to be on track, and appears to be on the grass. Did Trintignant pull off at this spot, does anyone know?

[Roger Clark]

I should first of all say that hte only credit I can take for the picture is with the scanner; it's from Autosport.

THere is indeed a 17th car in shot, and it is on the track. It's clearer in the original, but not clear enough to identify it. I thing the car obscured by the two Coopers is more likely to be Naylor's JBW. He was in more or less the right place on the grid. Richardson was 7.6 seconds slower than anybody else in practice (the Centro-Sud cars didn't practice) and he retired very early with an oil leak. He was trailing a cloud of smoke by the end of te first lap; I suggest he is the 18th car, not in shot.

[rod]

I'm clearly in no position to tell a JBW from an RRA, when I can't even spot the difference between a proffessional photo and an amateur snapshot! So, Roger, I'll withdraw my praise for your photographic abitities - praise instead for not only buying but also keeping all your Autosports.

But unless and until all the aforementioned experts join this thread (a typical 8W entry would tell us the address and phone number of the guy with the umbrella!), I'm sticking to my earlier supposition that 13th place is the RRA (because it looks like a T43), and 16th is Naylor (because of the bulbous lumpy body - of the car, that is, not Naylor).

I don't think we can read too much into grid positions. As you yourself said, look where the pole sitter is. So just because Richardson was 7.6 seconds off the pace doesn't mean he can't have made up a couple of places at the start. He would have been ahead of the Sud cars anyway, and Naylor and Burgess are not exactly rapid opposition.

Anyway, if your original theory is: 13th - Naylor; right at the back - 2 Centro Suds; too slow to be in shot - Richardson, that leaves the car obscured by umbrella-man and his mates as the Lotus Maser. I must admit, the front of this car looks strange - not clearly Cooperish or Lotusish. So we need a photo of the Burgess car more than ever. I always assumed it was standard Lotus 18 shape, but maybe there were bodywork changes?

[Roger Clark]

I don't know whether it helps, but here's a couple of rescans, concentrating on the back of the grid.

on the relevance of grid positions, it's true that tere were a number of bad starts, not only Moss, but Hill, Surtees and Gurney seem to have got away slowly too. However, it's one thing to make a slow start, another to make a blinder, especially when you're powered by an ancient Alta engine. I would also point out that Richardson started from the right hand side of the grid, so he would have had to cross the road as well as make up places.

[tombe]

A bit OT, but not entirely.

In his biography, Roy Salvadori relates the following story happening at this topic's race:

- "Whatever the results at Oulton Park, they were always occasions to remember because of the continuous parties at the Chester Country Club. The party on the eve of this meeting in 1960 nearly ended in disaster. We were all gathered in one room in the early hours of the morning and for some reason Graham Hill was lying on his back on the floor. Innes Ireland, taking the view that Graham looked rather untidy, decided to dust him down with a Hoover. Unfortunately the suck of the Hoover nearly did Graham a grave personal injury, but he was saved when somebody pulled out the plug - Innes had no intention of letting him escape." -

At first I thought Innes' actions could (if he was allowed to continue) have altered the future history of F1 WDCs. But of course, Damon was already one week old.........

[David McKinney]

The latest Motor Sport has a picture taken at almost the same split-second, which shows the entire field (with a Lotus 18 right at the back). I'll compare the two when I get home and post again - I reckon I should be able to identify the whole field.

[David McKinney]

OK, sorted.
Comparison of the two photographs and the entry-list confirms our assumptions regarding the first 12 cars. Obscured behind Halford is Trintignant. Then on the inside we have Gurney followed by Gregory with Naylor out wider, then Richardson back a bit and Burgess at the tail.
Only question mark is a small one - I might have Trintignant and Gregory the wrong way around. But I don't think so.

[pedro]

Any chance of scanning the Motor Sport picture, David, (or anyone?) for those of us who don't see it.

[David McKinney]

I would if I had a scanner...
I think ti goes on sale in teh UK tomorrow, so perhaps someone else will be able to oblige soon

[Barry Boor]

I have the Motor Sport already. Will I get into trouble if I scan the aforementioned image?

Signed:

The Anglesey Chicken

[Barry Boor]

As it happens I found the puicture in a very old book of mine.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
As it happens I found the puicture in a very old book of mine.

hence the caption

[pedro]

These two pictures are amazingly similar! I was wondering what David meant by 'almost the same split second', but now I see. It took me a while to work out that the Motor Sport one must have been taken slightly earlier, but by exactly how many split seconds I'll leave it to the mathematically inclined to work out. I wonder who the 2 suicidal camermen on the infield worked for, and where their photos are.

Now that all the mysteries of the photos are revealed, the only question that remains is where did Rod's 'umbrella-man' appear from? How did a man of this size manage to get himself into view in such a short space of time?

[Barry Boor]

Yes, Roger, I thought that was a particularly clever touch on my part to type in a fairly similar caption to the one Motor Sport printed.

Gives it a touch of authenticity, d'you know!

[rod]

So, none of us were 100% correct in identifying everybody on the original photo, but I feel some self-satisfaction in at least having got Naylor right. The guy with the helmet like Naylor's, and with the car like Naylor's, was, in fact... Naylor. How rarely this sort of logic actually works out!

I suppose that, thanks to Barry's collection of old books (with or witout the assistance of Motor Sport), I now have what I originally asked for - a photo of all the Gold Cup back markers. So, I dare hardly ask, has anyone got any better ones? A close up of the Lotus Maser or the RRA anywhere?

[FlagMan]

I would hazard a guess that "Rod's 'umbrella-man'" is actually the 'yellow' flag marshal stepping forward to be in a better position for action in the case if the inevitable Old Hall corner first lap accident...

Unfortunately I have not been able to identify any of the marshals or photographers - although the flag marshal looks vaguely familiar.

Interesting to note that two of the 'marshals' appear to be in uniform - I would again guess that they could be members of the Cheshire Fire Brigade acting as official 'fire marshals'.