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#1 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 15:30

This was sparked by a remark on the "driver multiple teams" thread. It is intended to record, or celebrate those occassions when a driver tried a car in practice with no intention of racing it, but just to see what it was like. There were a number of such things in the 50s and perhaps the 60s, but I don't think we'll get many later than that. We've already had Moss in a Porsche (Zandvoort 1959) and a Scarab (Monaco 1960) but I can think of at least a couple of others.

To start things off I offer this:

Posted Image

Actually, it's not a world Championship race, not even formula One, and the driver is not wearing his usual helmet; actually looking at it again I'm not even sure that the driver is who the caption says it is! The event did take place and I hope that is all in the spirit of the thread and an era of less regimented racing.

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 16:28

You've thrown me with that pic Roger, unless it's not who I think it is.
Isn't it Gregory in the Behra-Porsche in the 1960 Buenos Aires GP at Córdoba? If so, he not only drove it in practice, but also in the race:)

#3 Marcor

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 17:00

It's the Behra Porsche entered in 1960 by the Camoradi team. Masten drove it at Buenos-Aires (#2, 12th), Cordoba (#2, DNF) and in the Aintree 200 (F2 race, #8, DNF). Hans Herrmann replaced Gregory at Chimay (#12, started from 1st line on the grid but DNF) and was supposed to drive it in the German GP run in F2 regulations. Supposed as Herrmann was not happy with the car(#T14) and got the wheel of the Blue Rob Walker Porsche 718/2-01. Bonnier and Gendebien also tried the car but eventually didn't start the race. The last race of the car in Europe was at Monza in the boycotted Italian GP. Fred Gamble, partner of Loyd "Lucky" Cassner in the Camoradi team, saw the opportunity to realise his dream: to take part in a F1 race in Europe. Using the nickname "Frederico Gambini" his entry was accepted by the organisers and he even received starting price. With the #28, he qualified and fiinshed the race last and 10th, having to stopped twice during the race.

So the picture was taken at Buenos-Aires or Cordoba !!

And what about Bruce McLaren practising the Gilby Climax.

#4 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 17:19

It is the Behra-Porsche and it is the Buenos aires City grand Prix. however, the caption (Autosport) says that the driver is none other than J M Fangio! Even if it's not him in the picture (and I think it looks like Gregory), it does seem that he drove the car: "Fangio made several laps, the roar of the Porsche drowned by the wild cheering of the crowd."

Later at the same meeting, he tried, and rather severely crashed, a Maserati.

#5 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 17:46

Fangio may well have driven the car, but this is Gregory. I'm 99.9% sure! You can easily tell because it looks like Maria Teresa de Filipis! :lol:

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 19:02

That's certainly the old man's posture...hmmmm
Having by then retired from racing, he would of course have had to borrow someone's crash helment...hmmmm again

#7 bobbo

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 19:50

Iwould like to suggest that it MUST be anybody other than Masten because the driver aparently is NOT WEARING GLASSES! Even in the poor photo, Masten's glasses would be visible.

So. WHo is it??

Bobbo

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 October 2001 - 21:05

Where is Joe Fan?

The driver IS wearing goggles. Could not Masten have had prescription goggles?

#9 Felix Muelas

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Posted 15 October 2001 - 16:22

Originally posted by Roger Clark
It is the Behra-Porsche and it is the Buenos aires City grand Prix.


I have taken the liberty of submitting the question to whom I believe is the right person to solve it, Mr Vicente Sillitti, co-editor of the Fangio site

According to him it is Fangio but definitely it is not Buenos Aires. He should know, he lives 100 meters away from the Avenida General Paz :cool:

He his looking for further evidence to prove that Marcor´s analisys is correct, i.e. it should be Córdoba.

BTW, Roger, thanks for the scan, a wonderful finding !

Felix

#10 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 October 2001 - 17:16

Sorry, Felix, perhaps my post wasn't clear. The race was called the Buenos Aires City Grand Prix, but it was held at Cordoba, several hundred miles away I believe. Why, I don't know!

#11 Felix Muelas

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Posted 15 October 2001 - 20:11

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Sorry, Felix, perhaps my post wasn't clear. The race was called the Buenos Aires City Grand Prix, but it was held at Cordoba, several hundred miles away I believe. Why, I don't know!


Neither is mine, now that I think about it ! :lol: :lol:

Because effectively there were -and I hope Vicente would be able to explain the reason behind it if there is one- some Gran Premio de Buenos Aires were actually run not in the city of Buenos Aires but in Córdoba -1960- and in Mendoza -1956-!

;)
Felix

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 October 2001 - 22:45

Some other guest drives, all at Monaco, I wonder why?

Stirling Moss Cooper 1958 (driver in a huff because team manager wouldn't let him drive Brooks' car)

Peter Collins Cooper 1957 (Brabham, Leston and Ferrari all late in arriving)

Rudolph Uhlenhaut Maserati 1955 (???)

#13 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 08:29

In a test held in late January 1984 at Rio de Janeiro Emerson Fittipaldi drove the Spirit-Hart. His best lap was 1m 37.2s. Fastest was Tambay in the Renault at 1m 29.34s.

#14 Felix Muelas

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 11:41

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
In a test held in late January 1984 at Rio de Janeiro Emerson Fittipaldi drove the Spirit-Hart.


Let's put an image to Milan's words...

Posted Image

Felix

#15 byrkus

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 12:56

I didn't know it was usual to have driver's face on the nose of the car in those days... :lol: :lol: :lol: :cool:

#16 dmj

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 13:04

I'm curious what would be on the nose if he was testing in Sweden...:lol: :lol:

#17 D82

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 14:09

Well, Gilles Villeneuve drove for McLaren as guesty driver in England'77. He used both no. 40 and a year before's M23 instead of new M26. Here is the info about Gilles and other McLaren drivers...

Qualify Fastest Time Race
Villeneuve 9th 5th 11th
Hunt 1st 1st 1st
Mass 11th 8th 4th

#18 David McKinney

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 15:08

Villenueve was an official entry in a third team car, so falls outside the criteria of this thread

#19 VDP

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 15:30

T nuvolari at the coppa acerbo with auto union
in 1936 or 1937.


Robert

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#20 fines

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 16:24

IIRC, Stuck drove a Mercedes-Benz at either Lasarte or Brno in 1934.

#21 Marcor

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Posted 17 October 2001 - 23:51

Nuvolari did a few laps in an Auto Union during practice for the Spanish GP in 1934 but did the race with a T59 Bugatti, finishing third and beating the #22 Auto Union driven by zu Leinigen and Stuck. That was precisely the car he tried.

In 1934 NUvolari was not linked by a team and drove in GP successively a Bugatti (Monaco) then a Maserati (Alessandria where he had a bad crash), a Maserati again at AVUS and Barcelone, back to Bugatti for the ACF GP, then Maserati (Marne GP, German GP, Coppa Ciano, Coppa Acerbo, Nice GP, Swiss GP), an old 8C Monza Alfa Romeo at Biella, then Maserati (Italian GP), then Bugatti (Spanish GP), then Maserati (Masaryk GP, Modena, Napoli)...

#22 David McKinney

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Posted 18 October 2001 - 05:27

Or to put it another way, he signed for Bugatti for the grandes épreuves and drove his own cars in lesser events

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 18 October 2001 - 06:55

Originally posted by fines
IIRC, Stuck drove a Mercedes-Benz at either Lasarte or Brno in 1934.


I have a long faded memory of reading about Caracciola drving an Auto-Union and one of the A-U drivers trying a Merecedes. I thought the A-U driver involved was Rosemeyer, which would make it later than this but i could be wrong. I think I read it in Caracciola's autobiography, a book I have long since lost. Can anybody confirm this?


Originally posted by David McKinney
Or to put it another way, he signed for Bugatti for the grandes épreuves and drove his own cars in lesser events


Is that a correct interpretation David? Were the German, Swiss and Italian GPs not grandes épreuves?


#24 David McKinney

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Posted 18 October 2001 - 09:38

OK, perhaps I was being a bit sloppy...
How about, he signed for Bugatti for selected grandes epreuves?

#25 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 18 October 2001 - 19:16

Originally posted by Roger Clark


I have a long faded memory of reading about Caracciola drving an Auto-Union and one of the A-U drivers trying a Merecedes. I thought the A-U driver involved was Rosemeyer, which would make it later than this but i could be wrong. I think I read it in Caracciola's autobiography, a book I have long since lost. Can anybody confirm this?


From A Racing Driver's World.

Our manager, Dr. Feuereissen, and Neubauer once permitted Rosemeyer and me to exchange cars during practice at Monza. It was a sensation; Rosemeyer in a Mercedes and I in an Auto-Union - on the practice cars, of course.

When Rosemeyer got out he said; "Man, what marvellous brakes you've got! And how the thing hugs the road..."

I said, "a magnificent motor - from lowest to highest speed, and it picks up so smoothly..."

We agreed that the ideal racing car for 1939 should have a Mercedes chassis with Mercedes brakes and Auto-Union engine.

"But," I said, "with the engine in front."

#26 dbltop

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Posted 18 October 2001 - 19:25

Didn't Jackie Stewart try one of Clark's lotus's (lotii?) during the 65 season?

#27 cabianca

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Posted 19 October 2001 - 04:51

To answer an earlier question in the thread, Masten did have perscription goggles.

#28 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 19 October 2001 - 07:20

I have just listened to Murray Walker being interviewed on a local radio station. He talked about the time, in 1984, when he drove ten laps of Silverstone in a McLaren. When he returned to the pits John Watson asked him what revs he got up to on Hangar Straight. Murray's reply was 10,000, which according to Watson was equivalent to 150 mph.

#29 Roger Clark

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Posted 19 October 2001 - 18:00

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
I have just listened to Murray Walker being interviewed on a local radio station. He talked about the time, in 1984, when he drove ten laps of Silverstone in a McLaren. When he returned to the pits John Watson asked him what revs he got up to on Hangar Straight. Murray's reply was 10,000, which according to Watson was equivalent to 150 mph.


Did Watson ask what gear he was in?

#30 byrkus

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Posted 19 October 2001 - 20:06

Possibly in 3rd... :lol: :lol: :lol:

#31 Marcor

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Posted 19 October 2001 - 22:57

Jackie Stewart tried a Lotus in 1964 but at that time he was a F3 or F2 driver, not a star. He replaced Clark in the Rand GP whereas he had already his place in the BRM team for 1965...

#32 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 03:44

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Some other guest drives, all at Monaco, I wonder why?

Stirling Moss Cooper 1958 (driver in a huff because team manager wouldn't let him drive Brooks' car)

Peter Collins Cooper 1957 (Brabham, Leston and Ferrari all late in arriving)

Rudolph Uhlenhaut Maserati 1955 (???)



Another to guest drive a Cooper at Monaco in 1957 was Roy Salvadori (he was there to drive for BRM). He drove the 2-litre car while Collins first drove the 1.5-litre and then later the 2-litre.

#33 Bernd

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 04:06

What about Mario Andretti plonking it on pole first time out @ The Glen in 68! Prompting Colin Chapman to exclaim it was 'just like having Jimmy again' the highest praise!. Surely this is the most effective guest drive ever.

Back to the picture at the top of the thread when I first saw the picture I thought it was Fangio and I am pretty sure it is. The posture and attitude just seems right for him.

#34 LittleChris

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 10:38

I seem to remember Jody Scheckter trying out a Williams at Watkins Glen in 1976 and lapping a couple of seconds faster than Jacky Ickx, its regular incumbent.

#35 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 03 November 2001 - 07:41

Denny Hulme drove the prototype Cooper-Maserati during its first test run at Goodwood in late 1965. Roy Salvadori did most of the driving but Hulme put in a lap at 1m 19.3s compared with Clark and Stewart's official lap record of 1m 20.4s.

#36 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 03 November 2001 - 07:56

This from Jack Brabham's column in the December 1965 edition of Motor Racing.

On Guy Fawkes Day we had a pleasant time at Silverstone, though there were no real fireworks. Fangio was up there to take a look at four Formula 3 cars which we have built for the Temporada series in the Argentine. They looked very pretty, in blue with a yellow band down the middle, and Fangio came along with Bordeu, who tried them out. I also gave them a run, and got down to a lap in 1 minute 39.4 seconds, which satisfied me at least that they should be competitive in the Argentine. This is not the complete order; another four are on the way to Fangio, who organised the deal on behalf of some big Argentine industrialists.
During our day there, Fangio couldn't resist taking off his coat and putting in one lap in one of the F3s. It was rather against the rules, and I didn't know he was going to do it. But he went mighty quick, and his performance made me think that he could still see off most of the world's drivers (though he had a little trouble getting out of the tight cockpit when he had finished!).

#37 Roger Clark

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Posted 03 November 2001 - 08:22

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
Denny Hulme drove the prototype Cooper-Maserati during its first test run at Goodwood in late 1965. Roy Salvadori did most of the driving but Hulme put in a lap at 1m 19.3s compared with Clark and Stewart's official lap record of 1m 20.4s.



and not just Hulme...



Posted Image

#38 Joe Fan

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 14:45

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Where is Joe Fan?

The driver IS wearing goggles. Could not Masten have had prescription goggles?


Sorry, I didn't see this until now. Yes, Masten did wear prescription googles most of the time but was known to break them on occasion, then having to resort back to the Coke bottles. And yes, that pic does appear to be Masten.

#39 Joe Fan

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 14:48

Originally posted by Marcor
It's the Behra Porsche entered in 1960 by the Camoradi team. Masten drove it at Buenos-Aires (#2, 12th), Cordoba (#2, DNF) and in the Aintree 200 (F2 race, #8, DNF).


Hmmm... I knew about Buenos Aires but not about the other two. Were these F2 events and does anyone have the dates for these races?

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#40 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 18:38

I have taken the liberty of submitting the question to whom I believe is the right person to solve it, Mr Vicente Sillitti, co-editor of the Fangio site

According to him it is Fangio but definitely it is not Buenos Aires. He should know, he lives 100 meters away from the Avenida General Paz


Well, I'm sorry but I HAVE to go with Joe. I just can't see this as Fangio at all. I need a lot of convincing before I will accept that it isn't Masten.

Yes, Masten did wear prescription googles most of the time but was known to break them on occasion,



I'd love to see a picture of Masten wearing googles! :lol: :lol: :lol:

#41 Roger Clark

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 20:44

Originally posted by Joe Fan


Hmmm... I knew about Buenos Aires but not about the other two. Were these F2 events and does anyone have the dates for these races?


The Cordoba race was 14th Feb 1960, and was a Formula Libre race. Aintree was 30th april 1960, and was an F2 race.

#42 Joe Fan

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Posted 09 November 2001 - 15:31

Bless your heart Roger. You came through for me once again.:up:

Barry, I meant these >>>:cool: :blush:

#43 Felix Muelas

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 23:09

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
I have taken the liberty of submitting the question to whom I believe is the right person to solve it, Mr Vicente Sillitti, co-editor of the Fangio site

According to him it is Fangio but definitely it is not Buenos Aires. He should know, he lives 100 meters away from the Avenida General Paz :cool:

He his looking for further evidence to prove that Marcor´s analisys is correct, i.e. it should be Córdoba.
Felix


Posted Image

Well, some updates, four months later.
Vicente came back yesterday and, having found new evidence (an article dated 13 february 1960 in either "Corsa" or "El Gráfico" where two points are made clear :

a) Fangio driving Masten´s car took place in Córdoba the 12th february 1960.

b) The magazine goes and prints that Fangio´s times were better with that car than those of "The American" -in a reference to Masten Gregory that I am not intending to put here just to upset Joe Fan but because if we can confirm or deny this second point the above article will naturally gain or lose credibility...

Felix

#44 Liam

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 23:28

Far too recent I know, but didn't M.Shumacher, while at Ferrari, test a Sauber a few years ago?

#45 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 04:32

This is from the Road & Track report of the 1960 Buenos Aires Grand Prix.
As the qualifying session was in progress, the crowd was aroused by the announcement that Fangio was going to drive in exhibition: he first took Masten Gregory's Porsche around for several laps - at a conservative clip. Shortly afterwards he climbed into one of the vintage 250F Maseratis: some observers said Fangio had expressed his dissatisfaction with the lap times registered so far by the Maseratis, claiming they could be lowered. He took to the course at the wheel of Chimeri's Maserati and pressed it hard, then overshot a sharp left-hand turn (later Fangio stated the engine had quit as he shifted down) and tramped on the brakes. He finally drifted the car to place it on the stretch following the turn but the Maserati had gotten too close to the outside curb and hit it sideways at the end of the curve. On the outside there were only a few haybales to stop it from rolling down a 30-ft embankment; the rear end went up in the air, then the whole car started an ominous outside roll and for a split second had only one wheel on the ground. Fangio was flung up in the cockpit, hanging on to the steering wheel. The car landed back on its four wheels, Fangio dropped back into his seat and drove away with both right wheels badly bent.

So there it is. Confirmation that Fangio did drive Gregory's Porsche.

#46 oldtimer

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 06:20

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic



Another to guest drive a Cooper at Monaco in 1957 was Roy Salvadori (he was there to drive for BRM). He drove the 2-litre car while Collins first drove the 1.5-litre and then later the 2-litre.


Salvadori also drove a Cooper in practice at the Easter Goodwood meeting in 1957, whilst Mays and Berthon were trying to unravel the mysteries of the BRM brakes. When the car was deemed ready, Mays asked where his no.1 driver was.

"On the track", was the reply, "In a Cooper".

#47 Rob Ryder

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 19:45

Graham Hill did a few laps in Jacky Ickx Brabham BT26A at the 1969 British GP while was waiting for his Lotus to be prepared...

Can you see Ron Dennis letting Schumacher take out the McLaren during practice in Australia :lol:

#48 xjohnnyjaguarx

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 20:06

didnt robby gordon and adrian fernandez test the f1 ligier back in 1995 or did that never happen?
and i think al unser jr tested the williams in 1992 r 1993 , but again im not sure.
and i think paul tracy tested the benetton but the yr escapes me

#49 Joe Fan

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 07:09

Originally posted by Felix Muelas

Well, some updates, four months later.
Vicente came back yesterday and, having found new evidence (an article dated 13 february 1960 in either "Corsa" or "El Gráfico" where two points are made clear :

a) Fangio driving Masten´s car took place in Córdoba the 12th february 1960.

b) The magazine goes and prints that Fangio´s times were better with that car than those of "The American" -in a reference to Masten Gregory that I am not intending to put here just to upset Joe Fan but because if we can confirm or deny this second point the above article will naturally gain or lose credibility...

Felix


Felix, I seriously doubt the validity of the claim that Fangio's times were better than Masten's in the Behra-Porsche because my info is the same as what Milan has posted above. In that Fangio only did a couple of demo laps for the fans. I will say that if anyone could put in faster laps in a car than Masten (or nearly all drivers for that matter) with just a couple of laps to work with, it would be Fangio because he was simply awesome. However, I think the writer of this article may have been guilty of coloring his race report as this is something that I feel I would have heard about from the two of former Camoradi team members that I have communicated with. Info like this would have been well publicized as it would have confirmed the legend of The Master. However, the writer may have gotten his cars confused as it seems that Fangio was trying to put in competitive lap times in the Maser 250F (that Masten did not drive).

#50 2F-001

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 10:05

After final practice at the '70 International Trophy at Silverstone (cue: The Amon Thread...!) the Williams De Tomaso was driven by Stewart(?) as a favour to Frank W. I think the car had been hastily built up for the race and Courage was still on his way beack from the 1000kms at Monza. I think a third driver handled it during the Saturday, but I forget who...

Ah - Roy Pike, I think; another TNF 'fave'?