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#1 TonyKaye

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Posted 29 November 2001 - 23:57

From the research carried out by Hans Etzrodt, it is very clear that after WWI Germany was not excluded from international racing, apart, that is, from the most important race of all, the French Grand Prix. This was probably a decision taken by the French authorities alone, rather than by the world governing body, though it would be interesting to know if this surmise is correct.

What I find most surprising about this matter is that after WWII the FIA decided to ban both German drivers and manufacturers from international competition. It has always seemed to me that in most things the Allies were more conciliatory towards Germany in 1945 than in 1918. So why were they harsher when it came to motor racing? My guess is that it was a reaction to the overwhelming success of German cars and drivers in the six years before the second war. They didn't want 'the enemy' regaining all that prestige.

As it happened, France and Britain were largely unable to capitalize on this opportunity. But Italy, in the shape of Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Ferrari, not to mention a host of Italian drivers, took over where Mercedes and Auto Union had left off. Now that's strange, I thought Italy was an 'enemy' too. So why was Italy not banned? Because some partisans assassinated Mussolini at a time when it was pretty clear that the Axis was going to lose the war?

Would German drivers and cars been allowed in international competition after the war, if German partisans had killed Hitler after the Rhine had been crossed? I doubt it.

Similarly, Austrian drivers were also allowed to compete wherever they wished. Somehow Hans Stuck managed to acquire one of these coveted licenses, which explains why he was able to continue his career through the late forties. And what of Japan? I realize that Japan was not a force in world motor racing until the 60's, so I guess there would have been no point in banning Japan. It would have been as meaningful as prohibiting USA from international cricket tournaments.

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#2 Wolf

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 00:12

Tony- Italians have sort of 'switched' sides, remeber?;) But not before Germans had to help them conquer every country they, not without proper dose of optimism, invaded... :lol: Besides, Italians did get 'prefferential' treatment after the war in other aspects as well, unlike some other nations. :(

I guess that Allies figured Germans will take national pride into their motorsport conquest, and that's what they did not want- restoration of German nationalism (even in motorsport) in an easy manner. They wanted them to toil and suffer for it. Besides, I think that it would be quite inevitable that certain pre-war names pop up- and they might've figured that there is too much connections to be made between those names and Nazi regime which sponsored their pre-war efforts. I don't know how much Germans percieved their success as a fruit of the NSKK, but it would be stupid of the Allies to take the chance with it.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 00:59

I have to say, Tony, that I think you are rather misrepresenting the Italian situation in 1945 - Mussolini had been deposed by the Fascist Grand Council in 1943 and the legitimate government of Italy was that headed by Marshal Badoglio, not Mussolini's Italian Social Republic. Badoglio negotiated a peace with the Allies and Italian forces switched sides, ineffective though they may have been ....

And as for Germany, I hope Hans and our other German friends will forgive me for the tone of this text, but you might find the following relevant quotes from an article by 'Grande Vitesse' (Rodney Walkerley) published in the Motor of May 2nd 1945 give a flavour of the sentiments felt at the time. You should bear in mind that the full horrors of the revelation of Auschwitz and the "Final Solution" were no doubt very fresh in the mind of the writer.

Now that the European war is all over bar the fighting, there is here and there a little discussion and even a certain amount of writing, concerning whether the Boche should be allowed to race again ... it seems to me that the Boche ought not to be allowed to do anything ever again, having proved himself once more - and perhaps this time finally - to be unfit for human association. I hope that, while centuries run, the well-known Hun will be marked with a stigma and, despite every effort to reform and to prove what a decent, hard-working, sentimental, waltz-playing, beer-swilling and genial chap he really is at heart, the name German will stink in the nostrils of all men for ever. Which is in many ways a pity, there being more than one Hun that one could like as a chap, but there it is.

I for one, who for years admired and marvelled at the German drivers and German cars, feel that never again could I see a Mercedes or an Auto Union on a start-line without a feeling of nausea, and the same goes for BMWs and Adlers and the rest of them. What I would like to see is a team of their GP cars painted green (or blue) piloted by Englishmen or Frenchmen, owing to the fact that the said motorcars had been very properly taken over as spoils of war.

In any case, I don;t suppose the question of Huns racing again will even arise for twenty years, and, if it does, I see no insuperable difficulty in working out regulations for a race which will effectively bar them from competing.


I think I remember reading that there were seriously mooted plans at the time for the complete dismemberment of Germany as a state - Walkerley goes on to suggest that a reconstituted AIACR (with no German representation) should take over the Nurburgring "which one trusts will no longer be in German territory" and run it as an international facility, holding the European GP and a European Sports Car Championship, and as a standard circuit for endurance records.

Stuck's Austrian licence is easily explained - although his father was German, he was born in what was then Austria-Hungary and could claim dual citizenship. More dubious is Caracciola's acquisition of a Swiss licence which enabled him to go to Indianapolis in 1946 ...

#4 cabianca

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 05:52

Believe Carracciola had every right to a Swiss license. Didn't he spend the waning years of the war in Switzerland with the W165s that Mercedes had run in Tripoli before the war.

#5 Dennis David

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 06:25

Unless I'm batty he became a Swiss Citizen!

#6 Dennis David

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 06:36

Also one of Walkerkey's best mates died in the war, Rob Fellowes.

#7 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 08:06

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....I hope Hans and our other German friends will forgive me for the tone of this text, but you might find the following relevant quotes from an article by 'Grande Vitesse' (Rodney Walkerley) published in the Motor of May 2nd 1945 give a flavour of the sentiments felt at the time. You should bear in mind that the full horrors of the revelation of Auschwitz and the "Final Solution" were no doubt very fresh in the mind of the writer.....

Vitesse 2,
Thanks for your "refreshing" contribution, which explains the situation then in a rather unsensored article from an Original Source, which would probably not be possible today. I will add your contribution to the collection.




Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....Stuck's Austrian licence is easily explained - although his father was German, he was born in what was then Austria-Hungary and could claim dual citizenship. More dubious is Caracciola's acquisition of a Swiss licence which enabled him to go to Indianapolis in 1946 ...

As per Richard von Frankenberg in Die grossen Fahrer von einst, 1967, pg. 107 about Hans Stuck: While his parents travelled to Poland to establish a branch for their small sewing-silk factory near Freiburg (Breisgau) in Germany, little Hans was already on his way. The negotiations in Poland took longer than anticipated and that's why Hans Stuck was born in Warsaw.

As per Erwin Tragatsch in Das große Rennfahrerbuch1970, on page 305: After the war Hans Stuck lived near St. Anton in Austria. Since his Austro-Daimler period [1927-1930], Stuck had also the Austrian citizenship (next to the German), and therefore he drove after the war with an Austrian license.

Caracciola was born in Germany. In the early 30's he moved from Berlin to Switzerland, which he never left as his home base. After the onset of war, September 1939, as German citizen he remained in Switzerland. The Naziz confiscated his belongings in Germany in 1942. He never went to Germany during the war, they would have arrested him for refusing to do any voluntary troop support service, or whatever the government would have requested him to do. He already had lived for 8 years or so in the Schweiz and the Nazis asked him to come back to Germany to help in the war effort. So he (+ his wife) would have had to sell or rent his house and move back to Germany, the country he originally might have left for the same reason Michael Schumacher left his country and also to live in a neutral less troublesome country than Germany was at that time in the early thirties.
In November 1946 Caracciola became Swiss citizen in Bellinzona.

#8 alessandro silva

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 12:21

This is a very interesting subject that would require more than a few lines in a thread. The reasons why Italy had regained international ‘respectability’ so early after WWII depends of course on many historical factors. Among them, in my opinion, the more important were two:
- when Fascism fell on July 25th, 1943, and Italy signed an armistice with the Allies on September 8th, 1943, and switched to their side, a harsh German occupation of the country with the birth of the puppet Mussolini Republic in the Northern part, prompted the birth of a strong Resistence movement (mainly in the North). When British, French and American troops landed in Southern Italy in the Fall of 43, they quickly arrived in Naples but found very strong German opposition in the bloody Cassino battle and were able to arrive in Rome only in the Spring of 44. In the while the Resistence gained moral respect and practical support from the Allies and helped the final German rout in the North with the surrender of the Germans on April 25th, 1945, after another bloody Winter 44/45. Mussolini was executed a few days later. A government was set in Rome representing all the different parties active in the Resistence and had total Anglo-American backing. The ambiguous Badoglio had been thrown out already in ‘44 and the king – who had eloped in 1943 – did not count anymore.
- In the Yalta conference, a few weeks later, the three Greats divided Europe in two spheres of influence and Italy felt on the western side. In fact, the boundary between the two parts passed through the North-Eastern border of the country, a fact that ment a very important strategical position and that explains the strong financial support given by the Americans to rebuild Italian economy even before the Marshall plan and the Cold War and the immobilization of Italian politics until the fall of the Berlin Wall.

In sport, in general, Italy was rather quickly re-admitted. An international football (soccer) match between Switzerland and Italy late 45 or early 46 was considered of enormous symbolic significance. Italy was also allowed to compete in the 1948 Olympics in London (the Germans having to wait until 1956).

When car-racing fully resumed in the Spring of 1946, there was no opposition to Italian participation. In truth, the Italian government body of our sport was headed by two men, Tonino Brivio and Aymo Maggi, that were not compromised with the Fascist regime and journalists Lurani and Filippini were hopping between Paris and London to lobby for political support for the Italian teams and drivers, the latter also being able to secure an Italian participation in the Indy 500 in 1946. Besides being very active, these four men were very capable and soon Brivio became a member of FIA and Lurani of FIM (motorcycles). Their work was certainly instrumental in the gaining of Italian prominence in motorsports that would last well into the 50s. In any case, by 1948, there was no more problem and Lurani could start lobbying for German re-admission.

Of course there were some isolated voices against. In my present research on the 40s I have found some curious facts. For instance:
- in the 46 Bois de Boulogne race, Enrico Platè was declared ‘persona non grata’ (I do not know why) and Basadonna had to drive his car. Of course nothing was said about Nuvolari, for obvious reasons, and Ruggeri, who owned the cars! They both started in that race.
- In the 47 Jersey race “the usual pre-race frenzy was speeded up by a stupid news service story about the people of Jersey objecting to ex-enemy Italians being invited to compete.” (John Eason Gibson)
- ALTA builder Taylor issued a statement on August 22nd, 1946 to the effect that Italians should not be allowed to participate in international racing.
- Etc.

Also, Italian driver Franco Comotti was highly regareded by the French Press in postwar days, way above his class as a racer, the reason being his heroic deeds in the Resistence movement. This helped him to be one of the first to get one of the coveted new Talbot-Lagos. Tony Lago himself and Luigi Chinetti, who were notorious anti-Fascists, were helped in their industrial and commercial enterprises for this reason.

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 23:39

Re-reading Hans's contribution, I think my original premise that Caracciola's Swiss licence was "dubious" still holds true. After all he raced as a German until 1939, despite being a Swiss resident. And if he didn't become a Swiss citizen until November 1946, what was he doing attempting to qualify at Indianapolis in May 1946 with a Swiss licence?

Alessandro: I think there must also have been a certain amount of pragmatism about allowing Italian participation. If you examine the fields for most early post-war races the majority of entries are often Italian and most of the rest are French! Added to that, only Italy really still had a racing car industry (unless you count Talbot and Gordini) - without Maserati, Ferrari, Cisitalia and Alfa Romeo there would have been no post-war racing to speak of.

#10 Michael Müller

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 08:39

There's a difference between "licence" and "nationality". A racing licence is - and most probably was also in that time - no passport, you can see it more similar to a normal driving licence, which is issued by the authorities of your place of residence. I had a German ONS licence for years, and when moving to the Netherlands after expiry (each year) I had been told to apply for a new one here. I convinced the ONS that having the German nationality and still being member of the ADAC they have to issue me a German licence, which they did, and which I had till 1998. The licence never (i.e. last 20 years) showed any nationality of the holder itself, it was the standard FIA licence but issued by the ONS.

Believe the same was valid also in earlier years, so both, Hans Stuck and Rudi Caracciola, based on their country of residence, not only had the right to drive on Austrian resp. Swiss licence, it even was the standard procedure. Surely it would have been possible for both to claim also an ONS licence based on their nationality, which Stuck probably had in order to enter also for German national events. Probably also in those years entry forms had a "nationality" column, but in 25 years no organizer ever wanted to see my passport to countercheck.

Edit:

Just checked the actual FIA regulations. Based on this either the rules were different in 1989, or the ONS was wrong. The licence has to be issued by the parent ASN, which is the ASN of the country the applicant holds nationality. However, the ASN of the country the applicant holds proven residence can issue a licence, if the parent ASN gives permission (this is necessary of course in order to avoid cheating in case of licence suspension). Contrary to what I said above about Hans Stuck, nobody is allowed to hold licences from 2 different ASNs at the same time, but one is allowed to compete in national events with foreign licence, if he can prove the citizenship of that country.
Interesting is also the following sentence: Every competitor or driver who has obtained their licence from an ASN takes the nationality of that ASN for the period of validity of that licence.

Considering these actual rules had also been in force in the 40s, Stuck and Caracciola would have been able to apply for an Austrian resp. Swiss licence based on their place of living. Hans Stuck with residence in Austria and with Austrian licence could also enter German national events and championships if he still held a German passport (which afaik was the case), and Rudi Caracciola with a Swiss licence would have been considered as Swiss despite his German passport.


#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 12:21

Thanks for that excellent clarification Michael! :)

#12 unrepentant lurker

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 17:44

When were the Germans readmitted to international competition? There seems to be quite a few Germans who participated in the German GP in the early '50s. But that was their only event each year. Was that because they were not permitted to participate in anything else?

#13 Option1

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 19:08

As a guess, unsubstantiated by any research, I'd suggest that part of the reason why Germany may have been prevented from racing post-WWII was punishment for the part German industry played in the Nazi's war effort. Given that Grand Prix racing is one of the more obvious displays and promotions of technology and industry it doesn't seem to me too far-fetched to suggest such a thing.

Neil

#14 Tony Kaye

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 20:32

It may well be true that Germany was prohibited from international racing after WW2, due to the contribution of its industry during the war, but why then was there no similar ban after WW1?

#15 Wolf

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 21:13

Tony- I can't be 100% certain, but am fairly sure they did not employ slave labour during WWI in German industry. That's the main difference between supporting a war effort and comitting a crime against humanity. I belive that was the biggest reason dr. Porsche went to gaol after the war, as well as it was main item in charge against Albert Speer (Nazi Minister of Industry, who ordered industry to employ slave labour) in Nurnberg which got him 20 yrs (IIRC).

#16 FEV

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 21:31

Regarding the absence of ban on the germans after WWI here is a guess (but really just a guess !). The Empire who was behind the involvment of war in 1914-18 fell with the Armistice in 1918 and the Weimar Republic was installed in 1919. So maybe (a bit like for Italy in 1945), it is possible that the sports governing bodies of the time (AIACR, CIO, FIFA et al) considered that if the politics who ruled the country during the war years had been banned this was enough to "smoothen" the possible ban from international sports. Still, it is sad to say as a French, but the French (all the French : the people and the politics altogether) had a deeply anchored hate for the German dating back to at least the 1870 war. So maybe the ACF (which was still the dominant force in the AIACR) wasn't at all willing to see any germans competing against them on the French soil. But this is all guesses and we'll need contemporary sources to back it or prove it wrong !

About the licences question : isn't it a false problem ? If Germans were effictively banned from racing after WWII (and after reading the unbelievable "Motor" excerpt posted by Richard) I don't think that by just taking a swiss licence someone like Rudi Caracciola would have fooled organisers who didn't want Germans in their races. Whatever he may have done (or not done) during WWII his name was much too synonimous with silver arrows and thus with (to make it short) the nazi regim. So I don't think Caracciola or Stück took non-german licences only to be able to race. Did the ONS give any racing licences during the late 40s ? One reason for which they took foreign racing licences could be that they wasn't just any German racing federation to deliver them some ?

#17 Wolf

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 23:23

FEV- but, maybe it was about the difference in nature of the wars as well. WWI was 'ordinary' expansionist (imperialist) war where conflict was between armies of opposing alliances, whereas WWII was more of a total (all-out) war, where armies also clashed but army-civillian conflict was established. The most evident cases being concentration camps on Axis' side and bombing of Dresden on the side of Allies. Such conflict could not have but produce animosity (in this case of Allies against all Germans- as is evident from the article).

As an OT note- this matter was taken much further in divided nations (like mine), where non-conformist idealogies clashed leaving countless victims behind (Ustashi regime is claimed to have killed 300,000+, whereas communist regime killed further 1.2 mil*).
* first figure is mostly non-Croat population, whereas the larger part of the other number are Croats, retalliation &c (but let it be noted that the first number is in Croatia, and the second in Yugoslavia ). So, if one takes into the consideration that current population is 4 mil, one has no problem seeing the extent of the cathastrophe... :(

#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 December 2001 - 23:36

Originally posted by unrepentant lurker
When were the Germans readmitted to international competition? There seems to be quite a few Germans who participated in the German GP in the early '50s. But that was their only event each year. Was that because they were not permitted to participate in anything else?


According to Cyril Posthumus in "German Grand Prix" (page 66), the FIA agreed to sanction German participation in International events in late 1949. From then on German drivers could race abroad and the AvD could hold International meetings on German soil.

And Frank: that excerpt from Motor may seem unbelievable today, but I think it accurately reflects a prevailing view at that time. Perhaps you could research the French journals of the time some day- you might find similar sentiments ...

#19 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 02 December 2001 - 01:50

Originally posted by Vitesse2
According to Cyril Posthumus in "German Grand Prix" (page 66), the FIA agreed to sanction German participation in International events in late 1949. From then on German drivers could race abroad and the AvD could hold International meetings on German soil....

The above remark comes from the report about the first post-war German Grand Prix in 1950. This was not a major event but only a race for Formula 2 cars. For the first time foreign drivers started in Germany here.
Of German drivers entering a Grand Prix outside Germany in 1950, I am aware only of Paul Pietsch at the Italian GP, September 3, 1950. Maybe one of the experts in this era (I am not!) can find other German drivers, who had started in races outside Germany in 1950.

The quote below is out of German Racing Cars and Drivers, which is supporting your quote above and the second clipping from Das Auto says something else. Any opinion? Can anybody explain the last statement?

Günther Molter & Kurt Wörner: German Racing Cars and Drivers, 1950, pg. 118: In October [1949] an important epoch of German postwar motor sport was finished. A great turning point for Germany took place. The FIA – the International Automobile Sport Federation – resolved at the general convention in Paris to admit Germany and gave permission for Germany to take part at international races. Thus, starting in 1950, German racecar drivers will be allowed to compete in foreign countries and foreign drivers will start again in German races.

Das Auto, October 1950, No. 21, pg. 709: The FIA Conference in Paris
At the conference of the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) in Paris, the German delegation was admitted amiably. ……
The restriction for German racing drivers to participate in other countries was officially abolished, enabling German drivers to participate again at every foreign race......

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 02 December 2001 - 07:31

Now that's cleared up, we can return to the original premise, ie the difference between the two immediate-postwar periods.
I have been reluctant to raise this matter before now because I can't quote any sources. But I believe there was a restriction on German participation in motorsport after WW1, which limited them to participation in the new countries which had made up Austria-Hungary. Italy apparently ignored the ban, which is how Mercedes were able to contest the Targa Florio in 1921 and 1922.
But I believe the official ban was not lifted until 1923.
Also, I believe that in both cases the bans were against German paricipation in all international sport, not just motor sport.
However, I would be happy for someone (Hans?) to prove me wrong on both counts.

#21 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 02 December 2001 - 09:09

Beverley Rae Kimes: The Star and The Laurel, 1986, pg. 172 ….." Though the French Grand Prix, Europe’s premier road race, was revived in 1921, German cars would be barred for several years–a circumstance, which bothered Benz less than it did DMG [Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft]. "

DMG had no problem entering one car at the Targa Florio in May 1921, where Sailer came second behind Masetti’s Fiat. In 1922 the whole DMG team took part at the Targa Florio, but the private Mercedes of Masetti won. The DMG team entered three cars at the 1923 Indianapolis 500 with Sailer coming eighth. Benz from Mannheim ventured across German borders when they entered three cars at the 1923 European GP in Monza. DMG participated again at the Targa Florio in April 1924 where Werner won on the 2-liter Mercedes. In September that year DMG entered Sailer in Spain where he came third at the San Sebastian GP. The following month DMG appeared with four cars at the Italian GP. All this time no German cars or drivers entered in France!

David Hodges: The French Grand Prix, 1967, pg. 54, 1921 Le Mans, July 26 ".....There were, of course, no German entries–several years were to pass before German cars or drivers were once again to be acceptable to the A.C.F.– ....."

ILLUSTRIERTE AUTOMOBIL-REVUE (Bern), No. 1, January 23, 1923, p. 38, 40: The automobile sport year 1922 ".....A real big race, similar to the French Grand Prix of 1914, had not happened since the war, although theoretically the possibility presented itself at the Grand Prix of Italy. As long as the industry of the medium powers [“Mittelmächte” in the original text, a likely reference to the German industry] is not admissible everywhere, the racing readiness will not reach the former level. Besides this, the economical circumstances in the Deutsche Reich [Germany] play a disastrous part (for example, the best German representation was kept away from Monza by strike), and therefore in 1922 was actually just one single internationally really well represented race, the Targa Florio......"
ILLUSTRIERTE AUTOMOBIL-REVUE (Bern), No. 1, January 1924, p. 4: About the automobile sport 1923 "The internationality of the automobile sport activity in the sense of prewar time, has again by far not been accomplished in the year 1923. If we name four events as very special international contests and amongst them the Targa Florio, the Grand Prix of Indianapolis, the French Grand Prix and the Grand Prix of Europe, the Germans were refused only at one of these races, the Grand Prix of France. In the others German cars did start, but under conditions, which excluded a victory from the onset. The situation is best characterized by the circumstance that Germany had to cancel its own Grand Prix."

ILLUSTRIERTE AUTOMOBIL-REVUE (Bern), No. 1, January 1925, p. 7, 8: The automobile sport year 1924 "Quantitatively, the year 1924 has done for automobile contests more good than enough, in Switzerland as well as abroad and one can say that the frequency of the prewar years is surpassed long time ago. From the mass of insignificant about half a dozen of quite big international races stand out; in all of these the makes of all countries were admitted again, except solely the Grand Prix of Europe [Lyon, France], from which also this year the Germans were still excluded. Complete freedom of movement, it seems, should bring again the year 1925."

ILLUSTRIERTE AUTOMOBIL-REVUE (Bern), 1926, January/February, No. 1, pg. T9: The automobile sport year 1925 ".....In 1925, the international racing liberty was unfortunately not yet restored. However, we have progressed a little step further by admitting again Germany into the International Association at the May-congress of the A.I.A.C.R. in Paris and the racing circuit at Linas-Montlhéry has even invited the German industry for participation at their opening race."

#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 December 2001 - 12:58

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt

The above remark comes from the report about the first post-war German Grand Prix in 1950. This was not a major event but only a race for Formula 2 cars. For the first time foreign drivers started in Germany here.
Of German drivers entering a Grand Prix outside Germany in 1950, I am aware only of Paul Pietsch at the Italian GP, September 3, 1950. Maybe one of the experts in this era (I am not!) can find other German drivers, who had started in races outside Germany in 1950.

The quote below is out of German Racing Cars and Drivers, which is supporting your quote above and the second clipping from Das Auto says something else. Any opinion? Can anybody explain the last statement?

Günther Molter & Kurt Wörner: German Racing Cars and Drivers, 1950, pg. 118: In October [1949] an important epoch of German postwar motor sport was finished. A great turning point for Germany took place. The FIA – the International Automobile Sport Federation – resolved at the general convention in Paris to admit Germany and gave permission for Germany to take part at international races. Thus, starting in 1950, German racecar drivers will be allowed to compete in foreign countries and foreign drivers will start again in German races.

Das Auto, October 1950, No. 21, pg. 709: The FIA Conference in Paris
At the conference of the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) in Paris, the German delegation was admitted amiably. ……
The restriction for German racing drivers to participate in other countries was officially abolished, enabling German drivers to participate again at every foreign race......


Ignoring Stuck, Toni Ulmen seems to be the first - Preis von Ostschweiz-Erlen, May 7th 1950
Willi Krakau - Autodrome GP, Monza, May 28th 1950
Hermann Lang, Fritz Riess - Prix de Berne, June 4th 1950

Perhaps the second quote is confirming what had been a provisional arrangement, subject to revision after one year?

#23 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 06:56

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....Perhaps the second quote is confirming what had been a provisional arrangement, subject to revision after one year?.....

Vitesse 2,
Your suggestion confirms my suspicion. Is there anything in the Brits mags about the readmission? Possibly from Walkerley, who might have written something skeptical about the re-admission in 1949 and/or 1950.

#24 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 13:06

I've found nothing as yet, but then I haven't looked at 1949 yet either! :)

#25 David J Jones

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 14:50

I would surmise that the initial ban on Germany was due to the way the Nazis had exploited the technical superiority of MB and Auto-Union for propaganda purposes as well as developing engine technology for use in warplanes. A British parliamentary report which existed underlined this fact.

This may be interpretted as political hypocricy!

Around 1948 it was assumed that the denazification process was complete (another political decision) so after a interval of a couple of years it was appropriate to lift the ban.
The new World Championship was in the process of gestation and without Germany being free to participate it would have been a tainted series

Nevertheless it was four years before MB returned to the fray.............

#26 pinchevs

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 15:35

Please excuse me for re-addressing the Italy / German difference in being allowed back into the racing world post WWII. Many here have said that this was because of Italy turning against Germany. May I point out the enormous difference in guilt for crimes against humanity performed by each of these countries. Furthermore, while my memory and knowledge of events in the Holocaust are not what they should be, I can guarantee that Italy's involvement in these terrible acts was of no relative significance in relation to Germany.

I'm sorry, but to this day I can not truly give my support to any German driver and especially to the German manufacturers.

#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 15:51

In 1948-9 I think again we are seeing a certain amount of pragmatism on the part of the FIA. Looking at the wider political picture we see the post-Berlin Airlift rapprochement between Germany and the Allies which culminated in the formation of the Federal Republic as a response to the Soviets setting up the DDR. Suddenly there were "good Germans" again, standing up against the "Red Menace". American aid was being poured in to rebuild the economy and great strides were being taken to "normalize" German society - sporting contact of any sort would have been seen as a good way to rebuild relationships ....

I'm reminded of Bob Dylan's "God on their side":

We forgave the Germans and then we were friends ...
...
For the Germans now too have God on their side


#28 leegle

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 23:03

Originally posted by David J Jones


Nevertheless it was four years before MB returned to the fray.............


Surely that would have been a matter of financial matters at Daimler-Benz AG? :) The way they went GP racing meant they would need to be properly funded and it would have taken some time to rebuild after the war. :| Pinchevs touches on the culpability of the German nation as a whole and this was a matter they had to address as a result of events like the farmers who buried murdered prisoners along the path of the infamous death march. :( But that generation is now gone.

#29 David J Jones

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Posted 04 December 2001 - 15:57

I am sure I read somewhere that MB were considering entry to the World Championship series in 1950/51 using the 1.5 liter cars as raced at Tripoli in 39.

However the success of the unblown Ferrari against the Alfas put them off and they went Sports Car racing instead whilst in the meantime designinig the 2.5 liter cars for 1954/55.

These appeared by some strange coincidence in the 54 French GP..........

#30 Wolf

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 00:55

Under pain of being misunderstood (to defend any kind of attrocities) I do find that questions about the responsibility of German nation as a whole a bit too much for me. I don't think that anybody needs pointing out that maddness (of even few) can silence the reason of the many... ): And how come that that syntagm is never used with another nations, as well- AFAIK, Stallin killed more Jews than Hitler did, not to mention starving 7 million Ukrainian people to death. Why then no one speaks of 'responsibility of Soviet nations as a whole' for more than 40million people Soviet regime killed?

#31 pinchevs

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 16:02

Wolf,
I am sorry if I've offeneded you and or any German member of this forum. My reply was a bit harsh, but I was reffering to the question of why was Italy immediatlly allowed back to the racing world while Germany was not.

My feelings as a a descendant to a Jewish Polish family that has otherwise been totally wiped out in the Holocaust, are not simple and never will. However, I certainly don't blame today's Germany of anything.

Furthermore, the difference between the Holocaust and most of the other crimes against humanity committed, such as Wolf brought up, are not necessarily in the numbers, but in the fact that almost the entire highly civilized German nation was willfully and knowingly dragged into such unspeakable acts. The lesson should be well studied all over the world as it could happen every where. In this days of advanced Media, things like this can not happen without the knowledge of the world and the guilty should know that they will not avoid punishment.

Moshe Pinchevsky

#32 Wolf

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 19:25

Pinchevs- I don't think we should go so far as to appologise for things like that.;) Because, my intention was only to the extent that I feel uncomfortable with that kind of statements, not that I'm offended by them- and then I'd have to appologise for misleading You...;) But, as a matter of a point, I don't find any difference in relation between Hitler and his nazi regime to the German nation, and the Stallin and his communist regime to the Soviet nations. so, there should be no difference in collective guilt, especially when numbers are concerned (educated estimates show that Commies killed four times the number killed by Nazis and Japan put together).

#33 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 00:05

As promised in another thread ....

From the Motor, July 20th 1949

Germans may soon compete
Negotiations which have been proceeding behind the scenes for some time are now approaching fruition and within the next few weeks - on completion of the necessary documents - a representative German automobile club will be granted affiliation to the FIA, which will automatically give to German citizens full International touring facilities, and, to all who may require them, the competition licence necessary for International racing. Simultaneously with these benefits,the opportunity will be afforded for a car of German construction to participate in les Grandes Epreuves

Despite a search from early 1945 to mid-1946, I have found no direct references to when and how this ban came about, although it may be related to decisions taken at the Potsdam Conference regarding post-war responsibilities of ex-Nazis. However, such reporting as there is of AIACR meetings is, inevitably, concerned with the revival of racing and alternative Formula proposals.

#34 Foxbat

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 09:23

Re: Italy not being banned. In addition to the reasons already mentioned (changed sides, marginal involvement in crimes against humanity) Italy was not seen as imperialistic, and more importantly not seen as likely to engage in acts of aggression against its neighbours in the near future. Whereas the "huns" had started two world wars and had invaded France three times in a row.


* had they been more competent that might have been different

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 10:54

In early 1945 there was a lively and protracted correspondence in the pages of the Motor, prompted by an article by John Eason-Gibson, who had tracked down a number of Italian drivers and was eager to hear what they were planning. A wide range of views was expressed, but some writers were of the opinion that even Italian drivers who had raced pre-war should be banned. There was fairly general agreement that German drivers should be barred from International competition too.

Trying to keep things in perspective, a Motor editorial on June 20th 1945 pointed out that they couldn't just "exterminate" (paint over might be a better term to use today!) the careers of these drivers, especially if they were to subsequently reappear in entry lists. However, it does also say this:

If the international body permits the future entry of ex-enemy cars and drivers, it is not for "The Motor" to ban any reference to them. Those correspondents who do not agree, or who are for a policy of "extermination" and still feel strongly upon the matter, could make representations to the AIACR when that body meets again.

So it would appear that no decision had been taken at that point.

One or two German drivers had also surfaced, but unfounded rumours included Nuvolari being killed in a road accident and Lang being a high-ranking Gestapo officer.

Dennis: at the time that GV article I quoted a while back was published, Fellowes was actually still alive, although presumably still suffering the effects of losing a leg at El Alamein. He died in December 1945.

#36 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 23:08

I think I may have found the origin of this ban :)

On July 12th 1946 The Autocar reported, as part of its somewhat sporadic coverage of the summer CSI meeting (it still insisted on calling it the competition committee of the AIACR, BTW, despite having reported the change of name to FIA in the previous issue);

It has also been ruled that no entry will be accepted from a German national, but that a German car may compete if entered and driven by somebody who is not German, which is the best way to get out of another difficulty. No German driver can obtain an international competition licence at the present moment and without that licence one just doesn't exist in the competition world. It makes one wonder what would have happened if Caracciola had driven at Indianapolis.

Well, of course the Caracciola question has already been dismissed above, but this makes it clear that Germans could not hop across borders and obtain foreign licences. The reason they could not obtain a German International licence is presumably that no German club was currently affiliated to the FIA.

As a matter of record, there were 25 countries represented at that 1946 meeting - Austria was unanimously reincluded in the Federation, while Bolivia and Ecuador were admitted for the first time.

#37 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 10:55

Reviewing this thread, I've just realised that I inadvertently answered one of Tony's original questions by mentioning the readmission of Austria:

Similarly, Austrian drivers were also allowed to compete wherever they wished. Somehow Hans Stuck managed to acquire one of these coveted licenses, which explains why he was able to continue his career through the late forties.



In addition, I have uncovered some British press reports re the situation in the 1920s. They conveniently ignore the fact that German teams were already racing in Italy and America, however:

Autocar, Nov 7th 1924, page 909

Question of German Competition

Whether Germany will be admitted to the European [ie Belgian] Grand Prix or to the French race is a question which is being asked. Until our ex-enemies enter the League of Nations there can be no question of their participation in international motor car events. But it is not at all certain that it will be considered wise to allow German cars to race side by side with those of Allied nations even if Germany is officially rehabilitated. Public feeling still runs high, and any incident in the race, at a time when the spectators are keyed up to a pitch of excitement, might have unfortunate results.


Autocar, July 3rd 1925, page 12

Germany recognised by the IARAC

The most important decision at the general meeting of the International Association of Recognised Auriomobile Clubs, recently held in Paris, was the admission of Germany into this body. The voting showed twelve in favour, two against, and four neutral.


I wonder who the two were ....

Autocar, December 25th 1925, page 1223

Germany and 1926 races

As the Association of German Motor Manufacturers considers it necessary to concentrate on reducing production costs, it has resolved that members shall not take part in any motor races in 1926.


I'll leave it up to you to check the details of the first German GP .... :lol:

There may be more here to discover, but this was only tangential to what I was actually hunting ....

#38 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 16:48

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....The most important decision at the general meeting of the International Association of Recognised Auriomobile Clubs, recently held in Paris, was the admission of Germany into this body. The voting showed twelve in favour, two against, and four neutral.[/i]

I wonder who the two were ......

AFAICR it was France and Belgium.

#39 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 July 2002 - 08:18

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....Germany recognised by the IARAC

The most important decision at the general meeting of the International Association of Recognised Auriomobile Clubs, recently held in Paris, was the admission of Germany into this body. The voting showed twelve in favour, two against, and four neutral.


I wonder who the two were .....

The date of that A.I.A.C.R. meeting was May 5, 1925 according to ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL-ZEITUNG, No. 10, pg. 33 of May 15, 1925

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#40 Wolf

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Posted 25 July 2002 - 20:46

Just to announce my un-timely return to TNF after only three weeks holyday (:(, but the other half should follow soon), there was supposed to be some hard feelings lingering when MB was returning to the fray in '54... I remember Pomeroy suggesting to MB that 'from a political and propaganda point of view it would be no bad thing to have an English driver at one of their wheels...'.

#41 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 November 2002 - 00:58

I have recently acquired a copy of William Court's Power and Glory :D

On page 71, there is a throwaway comment that in the early 20s that "the ACF refused entries then from non-Allied countries".

#42 howl

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 01:03

Originally posted by Wolf
Just to announce my un-timely return to TNF after only three weeks holyday (:(, but the other half should follow soon), there was supposed to be some hard feelings lingering when MB was returning to the fray in '54... I remember Pomeroy suggesting to MB that 'from a political and propaganda point of view it would be no bad thing to have an English driver at one of their wheels...'.


Having just read this thread, I must say it’s been one of the most fascinating discussions I have witnessed here. Again it has been an eye opener to a matter I had just never thought of existed (in hindsight I can only say “of course it must have mattered”). But then again, history seems to repeat itself over and over (or is it humans that repeat history over and over?). In 1992 Yugoslavia was expelled from the European Football/Soccer Championship for what was going on within their own border. That in turn meant they needed a replacement for the tournament, but that’s highly irrelevant here….

It also reminds me of one of my last conversations with my grandfather. It was around 1990, and somehow we talked about Germany. He declared quite frankly (very true to his character) that he just didn’t care much about those Germans. I was quite surprised about such strong feelings for what I saw as a very integrated part of Europe.

The previous replies in this thread and my own throw back to my grand father leads me to the following question: How did the contemporary press, including Rodney Walkerly (Vitesse2 2001/11/30) look upon Stirling Moss driving a German car for the 1955-season – or what the man himself thought of it, and was there other British drivers in the frame, perhaps even drivers that refused the offer for whatever reasons they might have had?

My point is that my grandfather was in his early 30’s (my current age incidentally) when WW2 happened. His generation must then have been those with political and economic power when Mercedes-Benz returned to competition in the early 1950’s, and yet he was very strong about his anti-German feelings half a century later.

Incidentally, does anybody have thermometer – just want to check the temperature!

Jesper O.H.

#43 Bladrian

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 11:44

History is filled with sad, or glorious, events - depending on which side you were on at the time. Terry Pratchett (a favourite author of mine) invented a warcry which pretty much puts the whole sorry mess History insists on creating and re-creating, into a nutshell. The warcry goes:

"Remember-the-Atrocity-Committed-Against-US-Last-Time-That-Will-Excuse-the-Atrocity-That-We're-About-to-Commit-Today! And So On! Hurrah!"

Which basically leaves, as one's only defence, another favourite saying of mine (the motto of, amongst others, the 604 Middlesex Fighter Squadron, WWII)

Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum.

#44 dmj

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 12:35

Originally posted by howl
Having just read this thread, I must say it’s been one of the most fascinating discussions I have witnessed here. Again it has been an eye opener to a matter I had just never thought of existed (in hindsight I can only say “of course it must have mattered”). But then again, history seems to repeat itself over and over (or is it humans that repeat history over and over?). In 1992 Yugoslavia was expelled from the European Football/Soccer Championship for what was going on within their own border. That in turn meant they needed a replacement for the tournament, but that’s highly irrelevant here….

Let me guess where you are from... ;) Anyway, it was right decision because a lot of players from Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Slovenia were part of "Yugoslavian" national team, even durin these qualifications so it would be highly unethical to allow only these who inherited the name to compete. Not to mentioning ethical impications of letting a war agressor to be part of a sports event in the same time when war was at its height...
But, anyway, Denmark fitted in Championship in a way not unsimilar to tennis concept of "lucky loser" and won it. Probably the most admirable victory of any country in a major football tournament ever since I'm following that sport! I don't know about your neighbors but generally it seems that no one in the world has bad oppinion on Dannish people... and you were the smallest country to win a major event, too.

#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 12:41

Jesper: the Danish experience of WW2 was unique, in that, although your country was occupied, it retained a measure of autonomy not shared by others like France, Belgium or the Netherlands. I think this was a pragmatic decision by the Germans in that they needed a close jumping-off point to Sweden and Norway - a short sea crossing was essential for resources like minerals and heavy water. For that reason, I think the Danes were spared much of the atrocities which took place elsewhere. And paradoxically, when something bad did occur, it was much more noteworthy to the general populace: that may be the origin of your grandfather's feelings ....

BTW - don't get me wrong: I have the highest regard for the brave members of the Danish Resistance. Their heroic deeds in saving virtually the entire Jewish population of Denmark are one of the shining lights of resistance in occupied Europe.

(For those interested there is an excellent book on the Danish Resistance called "The Savage Canary": IIRC, either Hitler or Goebbels called Denmark Germany's canary - it proved to be a very vicious little bird!)

As to what Walkerley thought - honestly not sure, by that time. By 1955 there was very much a general spirit of rapprochement regarding Germany: see my earlier quote from Bob Dylan! And Moss had enquired about driving a Mercedes in 1954 - they basically told him to go away, buy a Maserati and prove his class in a competitive car. Which is exactly what he did ....

#46 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 14:11

The first German to race internationally after WW2 should have been Manfred von Brauchitsch, who was in Argentina for the 1949-50 Temporada, entered two races, but failed to start in both. He was entered by the AC of Argentina and according to a note in Tony's list he was using an Argentine licence.

#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 15:46

During the 1950s there was certainly a very strong sentiment in influential sections of the British motor sporting world which remained as pro-German as it had been in the 1930s.

None had forgotten the impact of the Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union factory teams, nor of BMW's works 328s, nor of the BMW and DKW works motor-cycle outfits.

Much of that old admiration had survived - albeit tempered by the conviction that - plainly - there had been 'Good Germans' and 'Bad Germans'. Almost without reservation any established German pre-war racer was regarded as having been a good guy - let down by his nation's leaders and the fanatics who were viewed as having been responsible for Lidice, Oradour, Auschwitz etc.

This motor sporting openness to postwar German motor sporting interests was absolutely not shared by some quite prominent people - perhaps most prominent amongst them Sir William Lyons, and 'Lofty' England, of Jaguar. Sir William had seen Coventry flattened by bombing and 'Lofty' who had a distinguished wartime flying career with the RAF - absolutely detested 'The Hun' and everything about them, particularly as exemplified by Mercedes-Benz. The same atitude rubbed off very much upon Mike Hawthorn, and when Moss joined the German team for 1955 and competed against the Jaguars run by 'Lofty' and driven by Hawthorn he too was regarded with less than the former warmth...particularly as they regarded him in some degree as being Jewish
and therefore letting his own side down...which was not an attitude based in reality, but it was one not helped by Moss's sense of his own commercial worth.

'Lofty' in particular absolutely loved stuffing the German cars even though he realised it was an uphill task for his economy-budget proprietary-parts specials against the cost-no-obstacle toolroom-built factory cars from Unterturkheim.

Essentially, nearly all these people had been brought up in a milieu which bred intense admiration and respect for the works of German technology and industry - an admiration absolutely not extended to that nation's role in international affairs since 1914.

DCN

#48 Holger Merten

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 21:44

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The first German to race internationally after WW2 should have been Manfred von Brauchitsch, who was in Argentina for the 1949-50 Temporada, entered two races, but failed to start in both. He was entered by the AC of Argentina and according to a note in Tony's list he was using an Argentine licence.


Sorry Richard, and Stuck?

#49 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 November 2002 - 21:51

Originally posted by Holger Merten


Sorry Richard, and Stuck?


As noted above, he seems to have been technically Austrian at the time, as he held dual nationality, lived in Austria post-war and had an Austrian competition licence.

#50 Wolf

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Posted 10 November 2002 - 01:06

Sorry guys for temporarily hijacking this thread for personal (ab)use.... Richard, thanks for notification, I'd have responded but Your PM box is full. (P.S. I'll hopefully have photo scanned on Monday).

Carry on, folks. :)