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1940 Grande Prêmio São Paulo


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#1 fines

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Posted 09 December 2001 - 23:35

Not sure if this is already well known, but I couldn't find the race on Leif's homepage so here goes:

Grande Prêmio São Paulo

1940-05-12, first race on Interlagos circuit

1st Arthur Nascimento Jr., Alfa Romeo (3500 cc), 25 laps, 1:46'44"
2nd Francisco "Chico" Landi, Maserati (3000 cc)
3rd Geraldo Avelar, Alfa Romeo (2700 cc)

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 00:01

:confused: :confused: Michael: I have basic records for 1936, 1948 & 1949 in King-Farlow, who shows the first Interlagos race as 1952. Joe Saward's book says the circuit was built in 1940. But he doesn't mention any racing before 1952 either ....

I saw no mention of this event in Motor Sport when I was at Beaulieu recently - and I was looking specifically for wartime races! However, I haven't yet checked other mags of this period. Is that date May 12th or December 5th?

#3 fines

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 01:01

May 12, the info comes from the Interlagos website.

#4 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 03:21

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....1940-05-12, first race on Interlagos circuit.....

:confused: :confused: ....... Is that date May 12th or December 5th?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This question should not have been necessary. All the better records nowadays show the month in letters, which is just a little bit more work but avoids confusion later on.

#5 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 14:18

1952 was the "VII Grande Prêmio de Interlagos", with the II held in 1947. Don't know when the no. I had been held, 1940, 1945, or 1946?

#6 alessandro silva

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 16:12

There were GP Interlagos and GP Cidade de Sao Paulo also in Interlagos, both with n°2 in 1947.
At leat one race was held in Interlagos in 1946 won by Oldemar Ramos. Denomination: unknown. That much I gathered from Tony Kaye's list and confirmed by personal communication by a South American friend.
I'd love to know more.

#7 Chico Landi

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 17:09

The official opening of the Interlagos should have happened at end of the thirties (not sure about the date, but it would have been in 1938 or 39) but it was postponed because the construction was delayed. A new date was set for the beginning of 1940 (not sure of the date either, but I believe it was at january 25th, the anniversary of the city of Sao Paulo), and once again was postponed due to the heavy rain that fell in the city in that period, causing some troubles with the circuit.

Finally, Interlagos was officially opened at may, 12th 1940, with two races: the "1o Prêmio Motociclístico Sao Paulo", for motorbikes; and the "Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo", for racecars.

Though the cars event was the main attraction, the first race ever held at Interlagos was the moto one, started at 1 pm. Here are the results:

1o Prêmio Motociclístico Sao Paulo - 12 laps - 96 km
1 - Hans Ravache (BMW 500cc) - 56min33s6 (108,839 km/h)
2 - Bento Bicudo Neto (BMW 500cc) - 57min06s6
3 - Wilfred Charla (Zundapp) - 57min52s0
4 - Plínio Laura Seabra (?) - 59min09s4
5 - Eduardo Dias de Oliveira (Harley Davidson) - 59min15s8
22 starters. The pole was set by Francisco Xavier de Medeiros (Norton) with 4min52s. He was DNF at the race.


The "Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo" started at 2:30 pm. Here is the starting grid (formation 4x4x4...) :
- 1st row
#2 - Arthur Nascimento Jr. (BR) - Alfa Romeo - 4min09s5
#22 - Quirino Landi (BR) - Alfa Romeo - 4min21s5
#18 - Dr. Geraldo Avellar (BR) - Alfa Romeo - 4min21s5
#4 - Francisco Credentino (BR) - Maserati - 4min23s5
- 2nd row
#6 - Francisco Landi :clap: (BR) - Maserati - 4min27s5
#8 - Manuel de Teffé (BR) - Maserati - 4min31s
#12 - Domingos Ochoteco (AR) - Alfa Romeo - 4min32s
#14 - Vasco Sameiro (P) - Alfa Romeo - 4min37s
- 3rd row
#34 - Joao Santos Mauro (BR) - Ford V8
#48 - Irineu Angulo (BR) - Ford V8
#50 - Amaral Júnior (BR) - Lincoln
#10 - Oldemar Ramos (BR) - Alfa Romeo
- 4th row
#40 - Claudio Bianchi (BR) - Hudson
#30 - Norberto Jung (BR) - Ford V8
#44 - Ary de Almeida (BR) - Alfa Romeo
#52 - Ninito Teixeira (BR) - Alfa Romeo
- 5th row
#20 - José dos Santos Soeiro (BR) - Fiat
#36 - José Zaza (BR) - Chrysler
#58 - Luiz Tavares de Moraes (BR) - Studebaker
#24 - Angelo Goncalves (BR) - Ford V8
- 6th row
#70 - Lygio Fernandes (BR) - Ford V8
#62 - Luigi Bertetti Bianco (BR) - Chrysler
#28 - Miguel Violante (BR) - Maserati
#38 - Jamil Coury (BR) - Renault
- 7th row
#54 - Luciano Edmundo Bonini (BR) - Fiat
#16 - Julio de Moraes (BR) - Wanderer
#32 - Arthur Bertoni (BR) - Ford V8
#68 - Luiz Zappia (BR) - Buick
- 8th row
#26 - Domingos Lopes (BR) - Bugatti
#42 - Benedicto Lopes (BR) - Alfa Romeo
Minimal time for qualification: 5min30s (avg speed 90 km/h). There were 45 inscriptions, but only 30 started. The rest of the drivers were DSQ after the health examination, or technical examination or because they haven't made the minimum time for the grid.

THE RACE
An easy task for Nascimento Jr, who opened a gap at the beggining and just kept the pace until the end. Landi was second and Avellar was third since the start. Benedicto and Domingos Lopes stormed through the field to complete the first five. There were just an accident, nothing serious, with Francisco Credentino.

RACE RESULTS - 25 laps - 200 km
1 - Arthur Nascimento Jr (BR) - Alfa Romeo 3800cc - 1h46m44s2 (112,426 km/h)
2 - Francisco Landi (BR) - Maserati 3000cc - 1h47m06s2 (112,041 km/h)
3 - Dr. Geraldo Avellar (BR) - Alfa Romeo - 24 laps
4 - Benedicto Lopes (BR) - Alfa Romeo - 24 laps
5 - Domingos Lopes (BR) - Bugatti - 24 laps
6 - Ary de Almeida (BR) - Alfa Romeo
7 - Joao Santos Mauro (BR) - Ford V8 (1st among addapted cars)
8 - Angelo Goncalves (BR) - Ford V8 (2nd among addapted cars)
9 - Norberto Jung (BR) - Ford V8 (3rd .................................)
10 - Jamil Coury (BR) - Ford V8 (4th ...............................)

BEST LAP: Arthur Nascimento Jr - 4min09s1 (115,616 km/h - 15th lap)

DNFs:
Manuel de Teffé - mechanical
Domingos Ochoteco - mechanical
Vasco Sameiro - mechanical
Francisco Credentino - accident

No idea about the other starters...

Giving the size of the engines of the first two drivers (Nascimento Jr and Landi), can someone tell the possible models they drove???

(Source: Jornal "O Estado de S. Paulo" from 12/05/1940 and 14/05/1940)

#8 Chico Landi

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 17:23

Michael,

You have a good question. I could never trace the "I Grande Prêmio Interlagos". I can tell there were two races officially numbered as "Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo". Though this opening 1940 race was named "Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo", the real "I Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo" was held in 1944 and won by Chico Landi (according to "Enciclopédia do Automóvel - Editora Abril, 1972), also the winner of the II Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo in 1947.
I wonder if this 1940 race was considered as the "I Grande Prêmio Interlagos", though I always read as "Grande Prêmio Sao Paulo"...

There was also the "Grande Prêmio Cidade de Sao Paulo", held in 1936. See thread:
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=31849

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 17:23

Nascimento's car was probably an 8C-35 or, less likely, a P3 with a bigger engine than normal.

Landi's could be either an 8CM-3000 or an 8CTF - the latter is more probable, I think.

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 19:37

Nascimento's car was indeed an 8C-35 - the car previously racd by Arzani.
Chico Landi's was an 8CM, or possibly an earlier two-seater version. (The 8CTFs were all accounted for elsewhere!)

#11 alessandro silva

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 20:00

Is it possible to have similar information for the 1946 races?
I have
1) date unknown Boa Vista winner: Oldemar Ramos
2) date unknown Interlagos winner Oldemar Ramos
3) October 6 II GP de la Gavea winner Chico Landi (here there is a legend about some European drivers entered but not arrived and thereby fined ?!?! See below)
4) December 15th I Circuito da Quinta de Boa Vista winner Chico Landi 2. Gino Bianco, 3. Annuar de Gioies Dacquer, 4. Giacomo Palmieri (Platè, Palmieri and Pintacuda had in fact left Italy for Brazil by boat from Genoa on November 10th while Varzi and Villoresi left directly to Argentina on December 18th).

This is the original information from Tony Kaye’s with in addition the confirmation of which Italian drivers could be starters in the races and which couldn’t.

#12 Chico Landi

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 20:55

Sorry but I can't help you now Alessandro. :( I have no further info about these races.

A friend from Brazil is about to send me a book in which is written the most important results from 1933 to 49, so hopefully I would be able to bring more light over this...

However it seems that this 46 race at Interlagos is our untraced "I Grande Prêmio de Interlagos".

#13 Chico Landi

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 21:48

Alessandro,

I went to google.com and typed "Interlagos 1946". Nothing about the Oldemar Ramos win. However, in two different websites it is written that Landi defeated Palmieri, Pintacuda and Platè at Interlagos in 1946. According to my notations, this race was held in 1947 (5th january). However, no idea to what happened to the european drivers in this event. In Brazil, according to several sources (not only this websites), this race was known as the "3Ps race".

Here are the addresses (written in portuguese) :
http://www.espiritos...9/gpbrasil.html
http://www.autodynam...interlagos.html

They also tell something about the Interlagos opening. First one to drive around the circuit was Manuel de Teffé in 16th april 1939. The scheduled date that was postponed due to rain was in 19th november 1939 (and not in 25th january 1940, as I thought).

It's not much, but all I could find so far...

#14 alessandro silva

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Posted 11 December 2001 - 09:25

The race on January 5, 1947 was the II Gran Premio Cidade de Sao Paulo. 1. Landi, 2. Platé, 3. Bianco, 4. Antonio Fernandes, 5. Palmieri.
Then the 3Ps moved to Argentina where they were joined by Villoresi and Varzi.
Villoresi, Varzi and Pintacuda came back to Brazil later for:
March 30, II GP de Interlagos, 1. Varzi and
April 21, VIII GP da Cidade de Rio de Janeiro, Gavea, 1 Landi, 2. Villoresi

Is it possible to know the title of the book you are waiting for?

#15 Chico Landi

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Posted 11 December 2001 - 10:02

The book is called "Automóvel no Brasil 1893-1966", published in 1966 and written by Vergniaud Calazans Goncalves. But I have no idea how accurate are the results published in it.

About this Gavea race in 1947, it is known as the greatest win of Chico Landi in his entire career. There were a torrential rain and here's the very interesting point of view of Landi about the event:

"During the first lap, Villoresi was ahead and I was right behind him. As we drove along Avenida Niemeyer, a cascade of water sprayed all over the track. I drove through it and my engine began to miss. Even so I pressed and, when Villoresi made a mistake, I took the lead as we raced down the hill. As I drove past the pits, I indicated that they should prepare a replacement spark-plug for my car. But I did not stop on my next time round. Everyone was waving the spark-plug and wrench at me. I thought to myself, if I stop, I lose the lead. The Italian's pit had been warned that I was going to stop, so they slowed their pace because of the rain. And I took advantage of this. As I drove down the hill, I switched off the engine, which had a compressor, to see if I could dry out the spark-plug through forced ventilation. And it did dry out after a few laps. The engine began to work properly again, and I won with no further problems. I remember that, at the end of the race, Villoresi came up to talk to me. 'Only a miracle', he said, 'would have dried out that spark plug'. And he pointed up to Christ the Redeemer atop the Corcovado peak."

That's why I love the post-war races!!! :love:

#16 fines

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Posted 11 December 2001 - 16:54

Thanks for the brillant info, Chico! And yes, it can't have been an 8CTF since they were all in the USofA by then.

To Alessandro, I believe Tony's note about the fine for the European drivers is a mistranslation! IIRC, the original info was in French and said something like "mass withdrawal of European drivers and teams". Will try to check soon...

#17 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 15 July 2002 - 20:29

I am posting here in the hope that knowledge has silently progressed over the last half year. Does someone know the exact date of the 1944 São Paulo Grand Prix, won by Chico Landi? And what type Alfa Romeo did he drive in this race? :)

#18 Chico Landi

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Posted 02 September 2002 - 20:51

Hello everybody!!!

Hans, I'm just compiling the info contained in a book about Chico Landi ("Chico Landi de ponta a ponta", by Paulo Scali) recently marketed in Brazil. Unfortunately, it seems the author was sometimes confused about results and, imagine, there are no exact dates for the races Landi took part, just the year... really a shame!

According to this book, and another one too ("Guerra sem Guerra", by Rodney Cytrynowicz), in the 1944 race Landi drove a street car (a Buick) moved by Gasogen - with cylinders of gas attached to the trunk. Remember, it was the IIWW period and the use of normal fuel for racing in Brazil was prohibited at that time (since 1942, probrably)...

But I guess where we all got the point wrong here: it seems that the 1944 GP at Interlagos was called "II Prova Prefeito Interventor Fernando Costa" (horrible name after the city mayor), with it's first edition happening the year before, also with cars moved by Gasogen and won by Landi (in a Chevrolet street car).

The REAL (until further research, I guess... ;) ) I GP Cidade de Sao Paulo happened in 1941 (no exact date). Landi was the winner... in an Alfa Romeo! Well, let's start guessing here:
a) He made only 4 races in that year, all of them with Alfas, according to all sources found.
b) I have no date for the race at Interlagos and for a race in Santa Fé, Argentina
c) He raced in september at Gávea, with an Alfa B2900 (according to the book "O Circuito da Gávea", by Paulo Scali)
d) He raced in november at Buenos Aires with a modified Alfa B3200 (according to "Chico Landi de ponta a ponta")
e) let me hear your guessing...


About the GPs CIDADE DE SAO PAULO:

These are the dates I have so far:

I) 1941 - Winner: Chico Landi (Alfa Romeo)
II) 30/03/1947 - Winner: Acchile Varzi (Alfa Romeo 308)
III) 21/04/1948 - Winner: Chico Landi (Alfa Romeo 8C-308)
IV) 20/03/1949 - Winner: Luigi Villoresi (Maserati 4CLT)
V) 28/05/1950 - Winner: Francisco Credentino (Maserati)
VI) 13 or 20/05/1951 - Winner: Chico Landi (Ferrari 125C)
VII) 13/01/1952 - Winner: Juan Manuel Fangio (Ferrai 166FL)
VIII) ??/01/1954 - Winner: Emmanuel de Graffenried (Maserati)

NOTE: The book about Chico Landi states for all the races above the name "GP Cidade de Sao Paulo", but with no numbers before. It's curious that some of the races (notably the 1952 edition, are named as GP de Interlagos in the famous Tony Kaye's list.

Maybe all this info won't clarify much (in gegenteil... ), but let's see!

#19 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 September 2002 - 03:42

Hello Chico.....
.....and I had already thought that the Blue Danube high waters had swept you away to the depths of the Black Sea.
Thanks for the additional race information. Tony Kaye has quite a bit of data assembled about those South American races. He is presently doing research in the Queen's country and should be back soon. So, he might have some comments for you.

Did you ever make it to the library in Wien? :)

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#20 quintin cloud

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 08:37

Originally posted by Chico Landi
Hello everybody!!!

About the GPs CIDADE DE SAO PAULO:

1941 - Winner: Chico Landi (Alfa Romeo)


Chico do you have a result for the 1941 event ?

#21 humphries

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 11:01

Prova Interventor Amarel Peixoto 26/6/1944 Niterey-Campos

Won by F.Landi followed by Quirino Landi, Geraldo Avelor, Jose Ambrosio, Fernando Coelho Magalhae and Jose Santos Soeiro. Race time 2:33' 31.0 (99.372 kph.) Source:- Jornal

Questions:-
1) What or where is Niterey-Campos?
2) What does Interventor mean?
3) What cars were they driving?

Any help would be appreciated.

John H

#22 Felix Muelas

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 12:05

Originally posted by humphries
2) What does Interventor mean?


John,

Without going into too many details, I understand that an "Interventor" in Brazil is something like a Governor. A political authority representing the central administration in a province and exercising its powers.

Well, well, after slightly altering your wording (The name of the Interventor is not Amarel but Amaral ) and doing a Google search, it looks like someone by the name of ERNÂNI DO AMARAL PEIXOTO was actually the Interventor of Rio de Janeiro (I assume the province) between 1937 and 1945. Take a look by yourself
;)

Felix

PS : Interesting piece of history here, there were two brothers Amaral Peixoto although Ernani was the Interventor that your query refers to...

#23 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 14:47

Post #18 above gives a few details not covered by Felix' answer - see also this thread, which was prompted by it:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23786

#24 O Volante

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 17:19

According to "Chico Landi De Ponta A Ponta", p. 44, the race was called "Prova Governador Amaral Peixoto" and won by Chico driving a Buick ... no date, speed or distance given. However, there is also a picture showing a touring car with race #22 and some spectators in the background, said to have been taken during the race at Niterói-Campos in 1944 ...
1) Niterói is a town east of Rio de Janeiro, on the other side of the Baia de Guanabara.
2) See above.
3) All most likely driving touring cars, possibly on gasogen ...
PS: The proper spelling of the names is probably Geraldo Avellar, José Ambrosio, Fernando Coelho Magalhaes and José Santos Soeiro.

#25 Fitti

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 19:49

Originally posted by O Volante
1) Niterói is a town east of Rio de Janeiro, on the other side of the Baia de Guanabara.


And Campos is a town 265km from Niterói, following the coast to north-east direction.

So, the distance of the race should be around that.

#26 550spyder

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 23:52

Only to help you guys with these strange portuguese brazilian words.

"prefeito interventor" means a mayor not elected but appointed by the federal government. in general after the overtrow of the elected one. "interventor" mean a public servant appointed to susbstitute someone in a government position after or during a corruption trial or political strugle or both

"ernani do amaral peixoto" was son in law of getúlio vargas, that was brazil's dictator from 1930 through 1945. getúlio vargas was elected president in 1950 and commited suicide in 1953 after a series of scandals.

only a coincidence that may be add some color. I race a 550spyder réplica in The Campeonato Paulista Of Classic Cars ( well almost classics, the majority are GTVs Alfas and réplicas, since all the original cars that we have were returned to Europe ) and all the races are held in Interlagos. If you see the first entry list (above post) there is the name Amaral Júnior with an adapted Lincoln starting in the 3# row. The guy that own the shop and the team that prepares my car is Roberto Amaral, grandson of Amaral Júnior. Well, Amaral Júnior left a Maseratti and the car was stored for 20 years due to family fights. Now, the things are becomming more clear and there is a big chance that my friend will get the Maseratti.

a final comment: the old guys when wanting to call someone that is fast call him "Pintacuda". until now "Pintacuda" means fast in old circles. this may be a hint about Pintacuda races here.

#27 Felix Muelas

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 07:45

550spyder : thanks a lot :clap:

Some things just need someone kind enough as to lay down some basic background. ;)

um abraço

#28 O Volante

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 09:02

Yes, many thanks for the info, 550spyder!
Your story about a recently "re-discovered" Maserati sounds EXTREMELY interesting, indeed ... Can you tell us more? Is it a single-seater or sports car? And perhaps a word about the Amarals and their other cars in the past? On their homepage there is a fine, but somewhat mysterious picture said to show grandpa Amaral Júnior driving his Meccanica Nacional car at Interlagos in 1950 - apparently a P3 Alfa Romeo with a non-standard engine ... What's the story about that? And are these Amarals related to the fellow who was blamed to have been responsible for the fatal crash of Celso Lara Barberis in the Interlagos 500 in 1963?

#29 humphries

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 10:51

Many thanks Felix, V2, O.V., Fitti and 550

Your information is very interesting, and No. 22 was Chico Landi's race number.

Although the photocopy of the newspaper I have in front of me is not that clear I will post the full results of the race.

The cars lined up on a grid of 5 rows of 4 cars ( although there was one non-starter and no #24) in car numbered order. It appears there was a mass start, unlike the Mille Miglia, which would have made the first few kilometres very interesting!

1 #22 Francisco Landi
2:33' 31 ( 99.272 kph )
2 #34 Quirino Landi
2:37' 39
3 #26 Geraldo Avellar
2:52' 45
4 #10 Jose Ambrosio
2:57' 32
5 #32 Fernando Coelho Magalhaes
3:01' 28
6 #02 Jose Santos Soeiro
3:17' 22
7 #30 Antonio Fernandes da Silva
3:18' 42
8 #40 Waldos Josinlianis
3: 37' 32
9 #04 Ary Sant'Anna
3: 39' 07
10 #12 Waldemar Martins Nogueira
3: 49' 57
11 #38 Sindulfo Santiago
4: 06' 00
12 #20 Alcides Vilella
4: 09' 01
13 #36 Osorio A. de Gusmao
4: 56' 30
14 #14 Augusto Cesar Barroso
5: 17' 00

Nao respondeu a chamada #18 Luis Bertetti Bianco

Nao terminaram #06 Henrique Casini, #08 Mauricio Carvalho, #16 Oldemar Ramos, #28 Wilson Sant'Anna

Francisco won Cr$ 13.000,00 and the "Taca Prefeitura de Campos", Quirino Cr$ 7.000,00

I am assuming that the cars were powered by gasogen. O.V. can you spot a large container and apparatus protruding from the boot ( trunk ) in the photograph?. Some of the saloons ( sedans ) that raced in the 1944 Carreteras races in the Rio Grande Do Sol province looked like the Chuggabug from Arkansas in The Wacky Races!

#30 O Volante

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 11:45

Humphries,
very interesting results ... :up:
Well, the picture does not help too much: taken from a higher point you see the car's front, and a little from the side, just enough to spot the race #22 ... there seems to be something on the back, but ... I'm not sure (sorry, don't have a scanner!)
On the other hand, for some more competitions held in Brazil during 1943/44/45, Paulo Scali is quite specific about the "gasogen configuration" of the cars used by Chico Landi:

1943
Prova Prefeito Interventor Fernando Costa, Interlagos - Chico Landi, 'Chevrolet movido a gosgênio', 1st
Circuito do Rio de Janeiro - Chico Landi, 'Ford a gosôgenio', 3rd (winner: Geraldo Avellar)
Circuito da Amendoeira - Chico Landi, 'Chevrolet a gosgênio', retired (winner: Catarino Andreatta)
Prova Subida de Montanha [hillclimb] Rio-Petrópolis - Chico Landi, 'Ford movido a gosôgenio', retired (winner: Gino Bianco, a.k.a. Luigi Bertetti Bianco)

1944
2° Prova Prefeito Interventor Fernando Costa, Interlagos - Chico Landi, 'Buick', 1st
GP da Cidade de Belo Horizonte (Belo Horizonte) - Chico Landi, 'Buick', 1st
Prova Subida de Montanha [hillclimb] Rio-Petrópolis - Chico Landi, 'Buick', 1st

1945
Interlagos - Chico Landi, 'Chevrolet a gosgênio', 1st

You see, his 1944 mount, the Buick never appears as gasogen car ...
PS: Do you have more reports from Brazilian races of the 1930s, 40s, 50s and 60s?

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 11:52

Any pictures of these Buicks?

And details of which Buick mechanicals they use?

#32 550spyder

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 15:34

O Volante,

The Maseratti is a single seater. I believe it is a 4CLT or something similar. Concernning the acident of Celso Lara Barbieris the answer is yes. Amaral Júnior was in the other car envolved in the accident. Even though I was very young I was in Interlagos at that day. Lara Barbieris was driving a beautifull rear engined fórmula. Chico Landi constructed the car. The car was a copy of a Ferrari Sharknose and the rear engine was an Alfa Romeo 2000 made in Brazil ( Alfa Romeos 2000 sedan was made in Brazil under the name JK in homage to Juscelino Kubstichek, 'president of the country and Brasília constructor )
The crash happened in the pits straight ( actually it is not straight) in front of the grand stands. The local is very close to Alonso and Webber crashes. At that time the pits were very small and more close to the Café bend ( pits hill, after Junção ). Barbieris car went to the inside and fell downhill rolling and killing the driver( remember there were no guard rails at that time ), almost reaching the old Laranja bend downside.
I was very young at that time but I think the accident was a fatality. The cars crashed in the "false" straight and believe me this place is very dangerous to potent cars. Even though you reach the place after climbing the hill the speed is over 200 km/h with a potent car. The control of the "electric chairs" at that time were minimal. Old cars, american big block engines, no brakes and the like. Barbieris car was very different. Faster and small than the old Dynosaurs. Very close to the Indianapolis situation of the early sixties.
I will try to get more information of the Maseratti, but the car is very well known by England Merchants that tried to buy it several times.

#33 550spyder

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 16:56

There is another Maseratti 4CLT here in Brazil. Belongs to a guy called Paulo Trevisan, that lives in Passo Fundo, Rio Grande do Sul state, close to Argentina and Uruguay.
2 years ago Trevisani brought to Brazilian Mil Milhas a series of old race cars, chiefly carreteras ( similar to those cars that Fangio began his career) that are old chevrolets and fords from the thirties very modified to race track. These cars are similar to Hot rods but not equal. They are made to race and bend and the preparation includes some tricks and modifications to suspension and brakes. Trevisani brought a Maseratti 4CLT, very well restored but lacking the original engine. The original engine was substituted by a 2300 Alfa Romeo brazilian made and turbo equiped. As we are sharing the box and as Trevisani is a very kind guy he saw my interest in the car and offered to me to take a ride.
I have 1,82, 54 years and drived a lot of odd things. It almost impossible to me to get inside the cockpit. My legs should be spread and my kness absolutelly bend. Impossible to get a confortable position that allow a minimal manouvre as parking, imagine a lap around the circuit. I started the car and took some manouvres inside and out the Box. what a nightamre. The trotle is in the middle, the brake is in the up right side and I have to make a enourmos effort to reach and press the pedal. Clutch were more easy. The gear box lever was anoter odd thing. It start in the midle of your legs and after a series of bends reaches your left hand but very close to the bend knee and to the wheel. To make change it is necessary that your left leg should go to some place. After some manouvres I give up and thanked Trevisani for his kind offer. Trevisani is smallest than me and more aquainted to the car and did some demonstration runs.
My questions are. Am I to tall to these cars? All old drivers were small but with a lot of stamina, brute force, sensibility and a courage beyond our limits nowadays?
Concernning the old cars I believe a guy called Collin Crabe colected almost all of them few years ago and shipeed them to England. One of these cars was the old Maseratti 300 S broght by Fangio in 1957, Fangio brought two cars and one of them belonged to the late Celso Lara Barbieris . Celso abandoned the maseratti trying to modernize his equipment with a modern car but fatality end his briliant career.
I f someone is interest in buy cars in Brazil I can help as a professional business consultant. There are some old Maseratis, Ferraris and Allard left.

#34 O Volante

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 08:30

Spyder, or better Roberto, I guess,
many thanks for sharing these info with us ... :up:
However, regarding Maseratis (or Alfa Romeos, Ferraris) in Brazil, there are still much more questions than answers. Anybody who is trying to compile a list of all 6CM, 4CL, 4CLT, but also 250F or 300S Maseratis and their fate will end up with cars "disappearing" in South America. I have always believed, and still do, that the whereabouts of at least some of these "lost" cars are well known among the local enthusiasts, but for one or another reason these stories are not communicated to us here in Europe (or North America and Australasia).
First, there seems to be a kind of language problem - I'm aware of some quite knowledgeable fellows, who read TNF and could contribute, but do not do because they feel rather ashamed of deficits in their knowledge of the English language ... Second, as you mentioned, there is always the business side of the interest in old racing cars. Sometimes it seems better not to speak about certain facts, because they would lead International car-dealers to some person etc - and one would prefer to keep a car in the national heritage. Besides, the public exposition of a car's story ending as a wreck beyond recovery always seems to provide forgers with a pre-text ... Third, there are definitely source problems: to do proper research, there is apparently no way to avoid hard work in old daily newspapers and the like ...
Enough said about these frustrations: Yes, I read about the Barberis accident, and have seen pictures of the Landi Junior car before and after the accident. Surely it was a new breed, rear engined and much smaller. But why was it called a Junior car? At least with the 1.9 or 2.0 litre Alfa JK engine it's not fitting into the stipulations of International Formula Junior - and also the other Landi cars raced in Brazil seem to have had too big engines for it. By the way, do you know if these cars still exist?
I know about the Trevisan 4CLT. It's said to be ex-Villoresi, as one could expect, but are exact details of its history known? And for your size problem, a number of historic pictures seem to show that driving these cars was not really comfortable - one had not to be Froilán González! Surely you are not the first to make this experience ...
To conclude I would like to repeat the question I asked Humphries, or John, for that matter: Do you have reports and results of Brazilian races from the 1930s, 40s, 50s and 60s?

#35 550spyder

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 03:20

O Volante,

Let´s clarify some aspects to you. There are no such "heritage" aspect. This is a new country. people don´t give a damn for national heritage. Even though in somecases is against the law to export a historic car I never heard a case regarding this.

The language should be a problem. Some people feel ashamed to write in english. If someone is reading this I think the best thing to do is write in portuguese and I volunteer to translate for the forum.

Almost all the cars are very well known be the merchants. The problem is that the owners are aware about their value and the prices are always inflated. People talk in US$ millions for cars that need a entire restoration. In other cases the car is in a legal batle about the property or belong to several heirs and this are always a not easy negotiation.

I believe the Barberis car was destroyed, not by the accident but by abandon. I will try to find something about. The formula junior name is new to me. At that time the car was called formula 1 by the brazilian magazine Quatro Rodas - http://quatrorodas.abril.uol.com.br/.

Regarding the reports and results I believe the big newspapers in São Paulo and Rio have very good archives. But these archives are in paper and in potuguese. Even though the newspapers have sites in the internet I don´t think these old issues are available.
The newspapers of São Paulo are:

O Estado de São Paulo: http://www.estado.estadao.com.br/
Folha de São Paulo: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/

The newspapers of Rio de Janeiro are:

O Globo: http://oglobo.globo.com/
Jornal do Brasil: http://www.jornaldobrasil.com.br

Maybe the best way is to hire someone to make a research in the arquives.

#36 humphries

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 20:43

O.V

The answer to your query is, yes I do have dozens of reports from newspapers on Brazilian races, a number of books and many magazines from the Sixties, including Autoesporte and Quatrorodas. As I have been collecting and collating race and hill-climb results from all over the world for nearly 40 years I've managed to fill two rooms of my house much to my wife's despair. Unfortunately I have done more collecting than collating. Not once have I dug out information only to find I already had it.

Before you ask the answer is NO! Not that I am a miserable old git as my sons would have you believe but for very valid reasons.

1) Much of my stuff has still to be cross-checked and filed. I have boxes of reels of micro filmed National Speed Sport News that I have not even opened 12 years after purchase.
2) I simply don't have the time. I should be down the pub now.
3) I'm already committed to detailed research for others.
4) Most of the Latin American information has been gathered by others and sent to me on the understanding that the information is not to be distributed. The researchers have spent considerable time and money doing their research. The good news is that they do intend to publish. I also would like to get some of my efforts into print, but don't hold your breath in my case.

Sometimes when I read the nostaglia forum I can only wince at all the duplication of effort that is being expended. What a pity motor racing has never had a Wisden.

Some of the threads are of interest to me and for that reason I feel obliged to chip in with bits and pieces for others but I spend far too much time on this site already. There should be a health warning. However I can supply pictures of the Landi FJ-DKW and the ill-fated Landi F1-Alfa Romeo if anyone is interested provided I'm not abusing copyright. I would appreciate advice on that aspect.

John

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 21:04

Originally posted by humphries
.....Sometimes when I read the nostaglia forum I can only wince at all the duplication of effort that is being expended. What a pity motor racing has never had a Wisden.....


I do too, very much so...

But, of course, for many the collecting and seeking is the 'thrill of the chase' as it were. Then one must consider what will happen to all this stuff in the long run.

Collections will be destroyed or broken up, lost without trace. There really does need to be some kind of central record-keeping. Projects that go unfinished shouldn't be left as misunderstood memories of family members, but should be completed by others and become a legacy to the one who put in the initial effort.

#38 Felix Muelas

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 12:15

Originally posted by humphries
...I can supply pictures of the Landi FJ-DKW and the ill-fated Landi F1-Alfa Romeo if anyone is interested provided I'm not abusing copyright.


John,

Well, I can say that we will be extremelly interested :)

Please take a look at this link and that might convince you of how serious and respectful with copyrights we are. Well, I hope you do, anyway.

An "ill-fated Landi F1-Alfa Romeo"? :eek: I do not think I have heard about that before...can we include it above? :love:

un abrazo

Felix

#39 550spyder

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 15:41

As far as I remmember the Landi DKW and the Landi F1 were almost equal. The major difference was the engine. 1000 cc two stroke in the Junior and Alfa Romeo 2000 in the F1. The cars used the front suspension very close to the DKW's. A tranverse leaf and wishbones. May be the F1 have better brakes and other modifications.
I Have the information that the constructor of the car was Tony Bianco, that after made also the Furias with backing of Massari famiily. I will try to find and talk with Bianco and see what happened with the car.

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#40 humphries

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 18:39

Felix

Pictures of the two Landi cars constructed by Ottorino Bianco and Chico Landi.

The shark-nosed Alfa Romeo car is referred to as a Formula Um, and the effort was praised for being the first F1 to be constructed in Brazil. The car, with a 2.0 engine for MN racing, was seen as worthy competition for the Chevrolet-engined Maserati 250Fs in the upcoming 1963 Independence Day 500.

The FJ car appeared at the beginning of 1962. Apparently a batch were laid down. One picture shows another three tubular frames being constructed. At the moment I'm not sure how many were built but a Mario Cesar de Camargo Filho raced one in 1964. That one of these cars was transformed into the F1, as Roberto suggests, seems quite likely as they appear a bit on the large size compared with the 1962 UK products. The DKW engine had plenty of space in the back.

John H

Landi F1 Photo

Landi FJ Photo

#41 Felix Muelas

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 20:43

For God´s sake, what a beauty! :)

Let me digest the information, put this "sharknose" in good company (that would be the Assegai and the ENB-Maserati plus obviously the 156) and I´ll react. If I can :lol:

Meanwhile...thanks, John :clap:

un abrazo

Felix

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 20:52

Originally posted by 550spyder
.....The cars used the front suspension very close to the DKW's. A tranverse leaf and wishbones.....


Transverse leaf at the rear only... and on the Junior there is coils all round.

#43 petefenelon

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 21:03

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
For God´s sake, what a beauty! :)

Let me digest the information, put this "sharknose" in good company (that would be the Assegai and the ENB-Maserati plus obviously the 156) and I´ll react. If I can :lol:

Meanwhile...thanks, John :clap:

un abrazo

Felix



Here's a rather dodgy shot of the Assegai from Coy's 2000 for you:

Posted Image

#44 550spyder

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 21:57

Ray,

I was almost certain that the Landi F1 have a transverse leaf suspension. Maybe the car that I saw and rememmber was an early version. Since I was 11 at 1960, I and my friends used to go to Chico Landi Shop at the Rua Afonso Brás. Also to his nephew Camillo Christóforo shop and to other race shops.

I believe there is a photo in Quatro Rodas Magazine showing the car with a DKW like front suspension. Well, who cares? The car is certain destroyed and we will never know. I wil try to talk with Tony Bianco. By the way I did not see Tony for almost 10 years. I hope he is alive and well.

#45 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 22:06

Our memories also play tricks on us, Roberto...

I merely posted so that point would be a little clearer, and especially should the photos disappear from the webspace.

Your contribution here is valuable... keep it up!

#46 dretceterini

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 22:11

Ok, which of you is going to do a book on all this South American stuff in English? PLEASE...PRETTY PLEASE...

#47 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 22:16

Can't they cooperate?

What a brilliant idea!

#48 David Beard

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 22:39

Originally posted by petefenelon



Here's a rather dodgy shot of the Assegai from Coy's 2000 for you:


Same car at Goodwood last year. I spoke to the creator Tony Kotze recently...he says the bodywork is NOTHING like the original

Posted Image

#49 Felix Muelas

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Posted 21 May 2003 - 06:47

Originally posted by David Beard
...Tony Kotze... says the bodywork is NOTHING like the original


He has to be right. I don't know where I saw a contemporary picture of the car, but Classic Car Africa has to be the likely candidate. And no, it didn't look like THAT! ;)

#50 Felix Muelas

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Posted 21 May 2003 - 07:58

Well, because life after all seems to be made of an astonishing amount of coincidences, I have received a couple of minutes ago Classic Car Africa's last issue, Volume 8 No 2, Winter Edition 2003 and there you have, in page 7, a picture of Tony Kotze's Assegai Alfa at the Republic Festival at Kylami (1963), picture by Len Konings, courtesy of Robert Young (ry6)

And yes, the car is definitely nicer and sleeker...including no roll-bar ;-)