100 greatest drives: The can is open, the worms are loose...
#1
Posted 20 December 2001 - 18:57
Well, Motor Sport magazine has run a feature in the January issue (I got mine today) wherein it uses a huge panel of 'experts' to nominate the 100 Greatest Drives in motor sport.
I cannot argue with #1 - Fangio at the 'Ring in 1957 - BUT ......
HOW ON EARTH CAN THEY IGNORE DAN GURNEY'S FANTASTIC PERFORMANCE AT SPA IN 1964 WHEN HE TOTALLY DESTROYED THE FIELD (INCLUDING ONE J. CLARK!)? To fail to include this in the top 100 is nothing short of scandalous!
I know all posters will have their favourites but the omission of any drive by DSG, especially Spa '64 leaves me almost speechless with disbelief.
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#2
Posted 20 December 2001 - 19:15
#3
Posted 20 December 2001 - 19:25
#4
Posted 20 December 2001 - 19:51
However, having said that, I am a bit surprised that Spa didn't make the cut. It did cross my mind, but as I pared down my list, it obviously fell off. Gad, I am trying to remember my choices now that I am thinking about it!!!
Hmmm, is the "panel of experts" listed?
#5
Posted 20 December 2001 - 19:52
I know that at this point I'm about to get angry looks if not something worse :
DIJON 1979!!
#6
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:08
1999, Le Mans. The All-japanese driver Toyota team. The lead BMW had a commanding lead and the 2nd place BMW and third place Toyota were within shouting distance of each other. The lead BMW broke a roll bar which jammed open the throttle and poor JJ Lehto went flying off the circuit. Suddenly the Toyota drivers came alive with the thought of victory in their mind and put on a stirring drive which only ended when a tire exploded, sealing up the victory for BMW. Everyone raved about how much they had stepped up their game, even Martin Brundle in the other Toyota saying "they've never shown this level of pace, in no test or practice session, not even qualifying" and they received the biggest cheer on the podium.
#7
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:21
Graham Hill at the Grand Prix of Monaco.
While in the lead, didn't he go off course trying to get around another car, get out and push his car around in the right direction, re-enter the race and then proceed to claw his way to front to take the win? I think that it was in '65.
Barry, as you were there, I'm pretty sure you might have offered this one up as one of the 100 greatest drives in history.
#8
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:25
#9
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:35
But, I still state Panis' win at Monaco in 1996 was a superb drive - pit stragety, holding on against an inferior car, mastering the conditions brilliantly. I would hope that is there? Barry or Gary, would you be able to tell me if it is. If not, I will join the Barry Boor Crusade of Favourite Drivers' Best Drives Being Ignored In History Club!
#10
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:38
Clark - Monza 1967 is at #6
Arnoux - Dijon 1979 - #11
Hill - Monaco 1965 - #54 !!!!!!!!!
Don, your name is in the Jury List. As is virtually every other English speaking racing journalist (but not Andrew Marriot????
As for the list of the Top 100, I will post them up in a few days if no-one else does it before me.
Sorry, Richie, no Olivier.
#11
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:40
Would it be possible (or legal!!) for a copy of the list and the "expert judges" tp be listed here so we can make up our own minds? Or further muddy the waters
Bobbo
#12
Posted 20 December 2001 - 20:42
OOPS!
You replied just as I was writing my request!
Great minds . . .
Bobbo
#13
Posted 20 December 2001 - 21:17
Originally posted by Barry Boor
Sorry, Richie, no Olivier.
"Experts".. Pah!
John Love then, surely, was there?????
#14
Posted 20 December 2001 - 22:00
#15
Posted 20 December 2001 - 22:04
#16
Posted 20 December 2001 - 22:14
Originally posted by Barry Boor
NOPE!
I can't believe this! Best thing I guess is to read the magazine when I finally get it & see who is in it instead, but.. I'm amazed!
Still, each to their own, I guess.
#17
Posted 20 December 2001 - 22:15
#18
Posted 20 December 2001 - 22:20
#19
Posted 20 December 2001 - 23:10
GV's win at Jarama in 81 was a supreme example of the old adage of "holding the line". I hope that it ranked highly on the list.
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#20
Posted 20 December 2001 - 23:22
Oh dear, that effort immediately came to mind, but as soon as you start to reflect or remember, the list starts to rapidly grow. So I'll back off, leaving Wolf to remember Moss' 1961 efforts at Monaco and the Nurbergring.
#21
Posted 20 December 2001 - 23:36
Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
"Experts".. Pah!
John Love then, surely, was there?????
I plead the Fifth Amendment....
#22
Posted 21 December 2001 - 00:10
#23
Posted 21 December 2001 - 00:41
#24
Posted 21 December 2001 - 01:22
P. Hill in the Cobra coupe at Spa, between stops. Gurney in the big stockers at Riverside (several times). Hawthorn at Rheims when he beat Fangio in 53. Nuvolari in the Mille Miglia in the Cisitalia. And de Ferran's pass at Rockingham last summer wasn't bad either. Novolari at the Ring in 35. Graham Hill at Sebring without lights in the Ferrari 330 TR. Pedro, also in the Sebring night in 1959, his TR's brakes glowing, eating into the team cars. Ginther shouting at Tavoni in the pits, "How the hell did Chinetti get them that engine?" Memories, gentlemen, memories. Somehow, most of the best ones are ones that took place when you were present. They say alcohol destroys brain cells, but when I take a drink, it all comes flooding back.
#25
Posted 21 December 2001 - 01:54
Originally posted by Barry Boor
HOW ON EARTH CAN THEY IGNORE DAN GURNEY'S FANTASTIC PERFORMANCE AT SPA IN 1964 WHEN HE TOTALLY DESTROYED THE FIELD (INCLUDING ONE J. CLARK!)?
Come on Barry it is well known that although he hated the place Jim Clark owned Spa. In 1964 his car was suffering from gremlins galore to the point that his team mate Pete Arundell outqualified him by nearly 4 seconds. Although his car was completely buggered Jimmy still somehow managed to win this race, through others misfortune admittedly but the fact that he got that car to the finish line at all is a stunning achievement.
This is not to belittle Dans drive at all he was the second best out there, but to say he destroyed Jim Clark that day is over the top in all respects. Clark due to reasons not under his control was not even in the hunt that day, yet he still won.
#26
Posted 21 December 2001 - 02:07
#27
Posted 21 December 2001 - 02:57
Matt, I agree, what of the performance by Villeneuve? - What many regard as his greatest drive, a classic to be sure.
".... What may be Gilles' signature race was not a first, but a second. At the 1979 French Grand Prix at Dijon, Renault and Jean-Pierre Jabouille posted the first win for a modern turbo car. Rene Arnoux, running well, looked to make it a Renault one-two. Villeneuve, however, asserted a definite au contraire in a sliding, wheel-banging, tire-boiling duel with Arnoux that no witness to it is likely to forget. Villeneuve's insane insistence that his slower Ferrari could beat Arnoux's faster Renault was rewarded, and he finished just ahead of the Frenchman. It is probably safe to say that this was the most exciting race for second place in the history of motor racing...."
Dennis David.
#28
Posted 21 December 2001 - 08:47
How about IndyCar Detroit 92 where Paul Tracy showed why Roger Penske signed him a year earlier?
#29
Posted 21 December 2001 - 12:20
And don't call me Shirley!!!
#30
Posted 21 December 2001 - 12:36
Originally posted by Wolf
Durst I enquire how many Moss' races were on the list?
Me too! Can't wait to see where Mille Miglia '55, Monaco '56, Argentine '58, Nürburgring 1000 '58 and '59, Portugal '59, International Trophy '61, Monaco and Germany '61 are on the list. ;)
Vanwall.
#31
Posted 21 December 2001 - 12:49
Ralf was building himself a reputation as shunter early in 1998.
Silverstone on race day was wet. Very wet. And Ralf was relegated to last on the grid. Few doubted his ability to survive the first lap in such circumstances, but survive it he did, and eventaully brough the car home in 6th for Jordan's first point of the season. Classic.
#32
Posted 21 December 2001 - 16:27
The 1951 British Grand Prix and the 1958 German Grand Prix would also be high on my list (without giving it a lot of thought)
#33
Posted 21 December 2001 - 17:28
#34
Posted 21 December 2001 - 17:48
Well, I guess that lets you know one of my choices... ...and most of the odd-ball (if they made the List at all) choices can probably be traced pretty easily from there....
#35
Posted 21 December 2001 - 18:13
#36
Posted 21 December 2001 - 18:23
I honestly am surprised that Panis wasn't there when Beltoise & Bellof (quite rightly) were there
There are some that surprise me by their inclusion (Damon Hill Japan), but the top ones seem to be fair enough (no spoilers now!)
Re. the experts.. Well, there's some who's validity to be there on unbiased thought (James Allen, voting for Ferrari!, Murray Walker & Matt Bishop) I could question but with the likes of Eoin Young, Paul Frere, Don, of course, Nigel Roebuck, Bill Boddy, Simon Taylor et al, I guess they know what they're doing....
After all, we all have different opinions...
Don, for a minute I thought the 5th Amendment was the 2nd & I thought "The right to bear arms?!" - that's a bit harsh! (but then I remembered what IS the 5th Amendment
What actually annoyed me the most was once again, Paul Fearnley's use (seemingly fashionable these days of using short sentences
for example:
The Picnic. Yum. Cheese. Quirky. Wine. Refreshing.
I hate this type of journalistic writing. I didn't learn English Langauage with the notion of being a journalist to write like that. Who was it (Roebuck? Jenks?) that said good motor racing journalism is done from the heart & reflects as such." I would write in but I doubt it'll have much chance of being printed....
#37
Posted 21 December 2001 - 18:43
Of course it was raining that day, and he was driving a beast called "Porsche 917"
#38
Posted 21 December 2001 - 19:01
I plead insanity!
Number of Moss entries: 6
Rodriguez - Brands 1970 - #12
Zanardi - Long Beach 1998 - #55
GV - Jarama 1981 - #9
Fines: Hungary 1998 - #23. Schumacher also has Barcelona 96 at #26, Spa 1995 at #25, Barcelona 1994 at #17 and Spa 1997 at #68.
Bernd - I don't care what problems Clark had that day (I know there was practice problems but what problems did he have in the race?) no-one was in Dan's class that afternoon. To say that Clark won is factually accurate but morally outrageous! Fourth was his best hope and he lucked into first in a BIG way. (Probably the only F1 win he ever lucked into.)
However, as Richie says 'each to his own'. I'm just a bit sad that names like Soheil Ayari, Dave Coyne and Michael Vergers are in this list but Dan Gurney is not!
#39
Posted 21 December 2001 - 19:36
100 - Rosemeyer 1937 Record week
99 - Johnny Herbert 1989 Brazilian GP
98 - Erik Carlsson 1963 Spa-Sofia-Liege
97 - Jim Clark 1962 German GP
96 - Pietro Bordino 1923 Italian GP
95 - Stirling Moss 1959 1000kms Nurburgring
94 - JJ Lehto Le Mans 1995
93 - Ivan Capelli 1990 French GP
92 - Alan Kulwicki 1992 Hooters 500
91 - Alan Moffat 1970 Bathurst 500
90 - Johnny Thompson 1957 Langthorne 100
89 - Alessandro Cagno 1906 Targa Florio
88 - Achille Varzi 1931 Targa Florio
87 - Jim Clark 1966 RAC Rally
86 - Henri Toivoven 1985 RAC Rally
85 - Parnelli Jones 1970 Trans Am Finale
84 - Stig Blomqvist 1996 RAC Rally
83 - Jim Clark 1962 1000kms Nurburgring
82 - Juan Pablo Montoya 2000 Michigan 500
81 - Pat Moss 1960 Liege-Rome-Liege
80 - Jim Clark 1963 Belgian GP
more in a moment...................
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#40
Posted 21 December 2001 - 19:41
#41
Posted 21 December 2001 - 19:44
78 - Allan McNish 1998 Le Mans
77 - Soheil Ayari 1997 Macau GP
76 - Walter Rohrl 1987 Pikes Peak
75 - Jean-Pierre Beltoise 1972 Monaco GP
74 - Tim Birkin 1930 Le Mans
73 - Louis Rosier 1950 Le Mans
72 - Tony Brooks 1955 Syracuse GP
71 - Keke Rosberg 1984 US GP
70 - Anthony Davidson 2000 FFord Festival Brands Hatch
69 - Michael Vergers 1996 FFord Festival Brands Hatch
68 - Michael Schumacher 1997 Belgian GP
67 - Tazio Nuvolari 1936 Coppa Ciano
66 - Frank Lockhart 1926 Indianapolis 500
65 - Mika Hakkinen 2000 Belgian GP
64 - Juan Pablo Montoya 2000 Indianpolis 500
63 - Jacques Villeneuve 1995 Indianpolis 500
62 - Gilles Villeneuve 1976 Trois-Rivieres F Atlantic
61 - Juan Manuel Fangio 1953 Mille Miglia
#42
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:01
Chris
#43
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:10
59 - Nicola Larini 1993 DTM Nurburgring
58 - Stirling Moss 1958 Argentine GP
57 - Johnny Herbert 1991 Le Mans
56 - Andey Green 1998 Land Speed Record runs
55 - Alessandro Zanardi 1998 Long Beach Indycar GP
54 - Graham Hill 1965 Monaco GP
53 - Mario Andretti 1967 Daytona 500
52 - Stirling Moss 1961 German GP
51 - Duncan Hamilton/Tony Rolt 1953 Le Mans
50 - Rick Mears 1991 Indianapolis 500
49 - Tazio Nuvolari 1947 Mille Miglia
48 - Juan Manuel Fangio 1955 Argentine GP
47 - Jackie Stewart 1973 Italian GP
46 - Jim Clark 1965 Indianapolis 500
45 - Bernd Rosemeyer 1935 Eilfelrennen
44 - Jean Alesi 1990 US GP
43 - Damon Hill 1994 Japanese GP
42 - Peter Gethin 1971 Italian GP
41 - John Watson 1983 US GP West
#44
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:12
Chris
#45
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:16
39 - Henri Toivonen 1980 RAC Rally
38 - Nigel Mansell 1989 Hungarian GP
37 - Emil Levassor 1895 Paris-Bordeaux-Paris
36 - Ari Vatanen 1985 Monte Carlo Rally
35 - Geroges Boillot 1914 French GP
34 - Rudolf Carracciola 1931 Mille Miglia
33 - Fernad Gabriel 1903 Paris-Madrid
32 - Jochen Rindt 1970 Monaco GP
31 - Keke Rosberg 1985 British GP Qualifying
30 - Timo Makinen 1965 Monte Carlo Rally
29 - Pierre Levegh 1952 Le Mans
28 - Gilles Villeneuve 1981 Monaco GP
27 - Stafn Bellof 1984 Monaco GP
26 - Michael Schumacher 1996 Spanish GP
25 - Michael Schumacher 1995 Belgian GP
24 - Mike Hathorn 1953 French GP
23 - Michael Schumacher 1998 Hungarian GP
22 - Dave Coyne 1990 FFord Festival Brands Hatch
21 - Johnny Herbert 1985 FFord Festival Brands Hatch
#46
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:19
19 - Colin McRae 1995 RAC Rally
18 - Niki Lauda 1976 Italian GP
17 - Michael Schumacher 1994 French GP
16 - Bernd Rosemeyer 1936 Eifelrennen
15 - Jacky Ickx 1969 Le Mans
14 - Aryton Senna 1984 Monaco GP
13 - Aryton Senna 1985 Portuguese GP
12 - Pedro Rodriguez 1970 BOAC 1000kms Brands Hatch
11 - Rene Arnoux 1979 French GP
#47
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:30
9 - Gilles Villeneuve 1981 Spanish GP
8 - Stirling Moss 1961 Monaco GP
7 - Tazio Novolari 1935 German GP
6 - Jim Clark 1967 Italian GP
5 - Nigel Mansell 1987 British GP
4 - Jackie Stewart 1968 German GP
3 - Ayrton Senna 1993 European GP, Donington Park
2 - Stirling Moss 1955 Mille Miglia
1 - Juan Manuel Fangio 1957 Geman GP
This is my Christmas presnet to you all - have a good one!
AND NO RONNIE !!!!
#48
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:33
DC's pass on Michael Schumacher at Brazil this year, using Tarso Marques as a pick was much more impressive. And this happened in a corner, not down a straight.
Sorry to get off on a mood, but Spa 2000 is nothing special in my book, I think it was raved about because of the lack of competitive passing in F1. A starving man would think an apple is a delicacy
#49
Posted 21 December 2001 - 20:42
I know this lists will never please everyone. Personally, I rate very highly Mas Wilson's performance at the Interlagos round of the deceased FIA ITC, back in 1996. Alongside with the usual names such as Schneider, Reuter, Naninni, Franchitti, Lehto, Fisichella, Ludwig, Stuck, Larini, Modena, Dalmas, Wurz and others, three brazilian drivers were invited: Max, Christian Fittipaldi and Tony Kanaan.
Under a rainstorm, the then unknown little brazilian came from the pre-last row to the lead in just three laps, racing with an outdated Alfa Romeo. He built a huge gap, but then the track started to dry. Even though, he kept the lead until the last laps, just then being overtooked by Larini in a works (brand new) Alfa. It was amazing!
#50
Posted 21 December 2001 - 21:43
You know what? I think it isn't such a bad list after all! Top-10 are indeed mostly top-10, though I find Gilles' Jarama win slightly overrated (not better than Boutsen doing the same trick versus Senna, Prost, Berger and Piquet at the Hungaroring 1990).
To me, the only real things missing: Some Gurney, and Jacky Ickx' fantastic drive in a F2 Matra, German GP 1967. On that occasion, young Jacky was effectively 3rd fastest in practice, faster than Stewart, Brabham, Gurney, Rindt etc. in full 3.0L F1 cars - and more than 25sec faster than the next F2.
Though the F2 had to start behind al the f1 cars (thus in fact starting from 18th postion), he ploughed through the F1 field and was fighting for 3rd spot with Brabham and Amon when his suspension collapsed in lap 12.