133 replies to this topic

[2F-001]

>>> Keke Rosberg winning in a Theodore - Int'l Trophy <<<

I was there that day - boy, it was wet! But wasn't it '78?
I think it may have been the first race appearance of the rather lovely Lotus 79 (anyone know?), although it and several others went off on the warm-up lap - the river crossing at Abbey being the major culprit I seem to remember. Some of these didn't make the start and oodles more flew off the road in the early part of the race, there wasn't left at the end. An object lesson in survival. Wasn't the Theodore basically a Ralt RT1 F3 car? So, all in all a pretty fair drive...

Sorry, I guess most of you know all this already...

[ensign14]

Whoops, brain fade. 78, not 79.

And forgot about Patrese - but did he go into the pits just after Larini retired? I think if I'd been the race director I'd have stopped it after Nicola retired to get him some points!

And this was another example of the great BBC Editing - in the live coverage (which typically cut off way before the end), James Hunt referred to Patrese being slow, Boutsen even slower - and this was somehow cut for the highlights...

[oldtimer]

If DNF drives can be included, where is Graham Hill's drive in the British GP at Silverstone. From last off the grid to 1st place, until the obstinately under-designed BRM brakes caught him out. The moustache was really bristling and the tyres chirping in protest. OK, OK, it was only Silverstone, but it sure was exciting to watch.

[oldtimer]

That was in 1960, of course.

[MONTOYASPEED]

12. Pedro Rodriguez BOAC 1000 kms
64. Juan Pablo Montoya 2000 Indy 500
82. Juan Pablo Montoya 2000 Michigan 500 An amazing race with a breath-taking end.

[Barry Boor]

Oldtimer - I'm definitely with you on that Graham Hill drive in 1960. That would be high up my list.

[Don Capps]

Very seriously late, my copy of the January MotorSport finally arrived and I can eyeball the article live and inperson.

First, I wanted just to see exactly who was on the jury -- being a staunch believer in the Groucho Marx maxim that I am not sure I would want to be a member of any club that allow me to be a member -- and there were some interesting names among those who served with me. Among those that inspired some respect were Jesse Alexander, John Blunsden, Adriano Cimarosti, Mike Cotton, Paul Frere, Duncan Rabaglianti, Joe Scalzo, and Rob Walker -- plus others, of course. Many names however seemed to be part of the Haymarket group, however, and there so names missing that would have nice to be on the jury, but I know how this goes. Also, there was no question that it was going to be Eurocentric with a vengeance -- personal opinion on that point.

Second, I really don't remember all of those that I submitted to Paul, that computer having been trashed by a virus. However, I think that mine were generally so oddball that most did't make the cut. That that I think much of these exercises in the first place, but Paul is a friend and he asked me nicely....

Looking through selections, some of my comments:

# 98 -- Wow! Good selection! I had forgotten about this one! Erik was one of my favorites and too bad he is basically an unknown these days. I wonder if Sturat Turner was the one behind this one?

# 97 -- I think this was one of mine; a great drive and really given much thought these days. This is the drive that made many a Believer in Jim Clark.

# 96 -- If I had thought of it, a good one to drop in the hat.

# 95 -- I know I considered this one. I was there and did not think he could pull it off. Superb drive by Moss.

# 92 -- This drive by Alan Kulwicki was -- and is -- my Number One choice. I chose it not only for that day's performance, but how Kulwicki put himself in position to have the opportunity to even be in contention that day. Kulwicki came from way behind in the points and somehow pulled off what can only be called a miracle. It was a performance that was both "head and heart" and which even the Junior Johnson team had to admire and respect.

# 90 -- This was probably one that Joe Scalzo nominated. And it was a feat that was much harder than folks can even conceive of today -- Langhorne was a sumbitch of a place to race on the best of days and as they, separated the brave ftom the merely crazy long after the men and boys had left....

#'s 89 and 88 -- why we have no appreciation these types of performances is why these lists irritate me. These are truly splendid drives and I am amazed that they made the cut.

#'s 87, 86, 84 81, 39, 30, and 19 prove that the rally guys had a very, very good lobby on the jury.

# 85 -- I am inpressed this one made the cut. Ol' PJ outdid himself in this case of thumper cars...

# 80 -- The 1962 German GP was better in my book, but....

# 79 -- This is a good drive and nice to see it remembered.

# 77 -- Okay....but, why it is so low if this was the story? Jeez, shouldn't this be much higher on the list?

# 76 -- Whatever.....

# 75 -- Good race performance to remember. Glad it is here.

# 74 and # 73 -- Coincidence that these tow Le Mans performances are cheek by jowl on the list?

# 72 -- Tony Brooks makes the list for a performance that Jingoists still love to trot out to wave the flag abput today. Unfair to Tony who really did a superb job in Sicily.

# 71 -- I was there and my already high respect for Keke soared that day, particualry in that dog of a Williams he was driving. He could have won the USAC Silver Crown had he been so inclined, a real Racer.

#'s 69 and 70 are reminder that MotorSport is an English magazine and that England is a part of the United Kingdom and the UK is on an island and that on islands thinking is often insular....

# 68 -- Wasn't this the year he didn't exist?

# 67 -- One of Nuvolari's best performances and why is it so low?

# 66 -- A better performance than the brief blurb would have you believe.

# 63 -- Ditto.

# 62 -- This one I thought about, and hard.

# 61 -- A superb performance and one which makes one really appreciate Fangio's genius, which was honed in those staggering difficult South American events he drove so well over distances that are mind-boggling.

# 60 -- Moss made his mark with this one. I know I was crushed when he didn't win.

# 53 -- This was one of mine (I think)! I wonder who else voted for it? A splendid performance by Mario and one which made many sit up and realize just how happy they were that he was driving in USAC....

# 52 -- A splendid performance by Moss and one which should be remembered for the fantastic pursuit put up by Phil Hill and Taffy von Trips as well.

At thid point I am wondering whether to continue since most seem to make some sense....such as...

#'s 49 and 48 -- Why they are called Plastic Men in Plastic Cars today.....

# 45 -- In my opinion, his best race.... which is saying something...

# 43 -- What? This is "better" than Rosemeyer or Nuvolari?

# 42 -- Sorry I missed this one, good rationale to get rid of the chicanes and.....

# 38 -- Whatever......

# 37 -- The American race in Chicago that November was much, much more of a gruelling grind than race than this one in some ways, but that is not so say that this race doesn't rate. I wonder how it got this high?

# 35 -- One I should have nominated if I didn't. Boillot was something else that day and one wonders how the race would be remembered today had he not dropped a valve?

# 33 -- Another one that amazes me with its high ranking. Deserved, but one wonders how it managed to get there....

# 32 -- An example of why we watch races even in a period of total blandness, the hope that something goes awry at the last moment...

# 31 -- Go, Keke, Go! I often think that it wasn't Keke that got slower, but that the racing got smaller....

#'s 28 and 27 -- Monaco used to be a place where folks could race instead of a glorified parking lot circuilt and site of the original Planet Plutocrat....

# 24 -- Yep, I probably voted for this one. However, keep in mind that nipping at their heels was a whole bunch of folks.....

#'s 22 and 21 -- See earlier coments on islands...

# 18 -- For those who know Nikolaus only in his recent incarnation as Man about Jaguar, here is why he is Respected by those from the past. We were staggered to realize that he was actually going to race, and dumbfounded when he finished fourth. Speaking from a personal standpoint, it shoulda been ol' Nikky that year....

# 16 -- Although I personally rate the 1935 Eifelrennen "higher" -- if I could or would use such a term -- it is once again amazing to see such a race so high in the standings.

# 14 -- Sorry, but I don't buy this one at all, but this is where celebrity wins out over reality.

# 13 -- Way too high on the list, but for a short time even I thought the young Brazilan had something going....

# 12 -- Only # 12? Pedro was linked into another universe that day. A friend of mine saw the race and could not believe what he was seeing, he said. After that he was a huge fan of Pedro's which is hard to comprehend since he already was a great admirer of the man.

#'s 11 and 10 -- If it hadn't been recorded, who would have believed it? Another example of why racing seems so bland these days....

# 9 -- I may have had this on my list because I know I definitely thought about it. A performance that surprises me in its getting so high on the list.

#'s 8 and 7 -- Why some of us love racing, the Underdog biting the Big Dog square in the ass....

# 6 -- Clark as legend. Little remembered is that Graham Hill was actually lapping quicker than Clark..... However, Clark's performance was the stuff of legends that day. Few remember that when necessary he could tiger with the best of them.....

# 5 -- Another reminder that this is an English magazine....

# 4 -- Outstanding drive and one that was amazing then and remains so over the years. I have often wondered why so many sort of push Stewart off in a corner these days. Forget Stewart as the catalyst of the Modern Days of Racing and consider that under that slick exterior that he was a genuine Racer.

# 3 -- I was lucky enough to see brief glimpses of the '722' car that day as it tore through the Italian countryside. Even the Italians cheered when he went past -- a remarkable event at the time.... A great drive and another pause to wonder how it got this high -- had it been John Fitch and DSJ would it have been this high?

# 2 -- I had two immediate thoughts: First, thank goodness it wasn't "number one." Second, probably the most overrated drive in modern history and one I did not, would not ever consider for any rating this high in the listings. Sorry, but that is my view. Rosemeyer's performances at the Nurburgring were infinfitely more worthy, but Rosemeyer is not a celebrity or a god to those around today and therefore will always come out second best to Senna in any such poll. Another reason as to why I think such polls are more than a bit ridiculous.

# 1 -- If there had to be a Number One, as good a choice as any and one worthy of such consideration. I know it was on my list somewhere.




Well, my question is: what about those not on the list? Or at least those nominations which didn't make the cut. One I think I should have nominated for consideration was that of Curtis Turner in the 1950 Carrera Panamerica. In a Nash -- yes, a NASH -- ol' Curtis not only passed everybody in front of him (they started at four minute intervals and he was the eighth to start), after a flat tire he had to do again and only just failed to catch catch Piero Taruffi in an Alfa Romeo by about a minute, and took the leg by over three minutes and pulled the Nash (!) up from eighth place overall at the start of the leg to third overall at the end of the leg. Only to be disqualified for changing from one car to another. This was over poor Mexican roads -- mountain roads to boot. Easily something that rates much, much higher than a couple of FF races or tricked out super-karts or whatever.....









While entertaining and often useful for discussion -- usually by accident, these lists generally are for marketing purposes or drawing attention to a particular ideological axe someone wishes to grind.....

















Anyway, just my lowly opinion.

[Wolf]

Don- thanks for trashing my favourite driver and his drive ranked on 2nd spot...

Heh, You just confused drives no 2 and 3...

[Don Capps]

Wolf, My pleasure, any time.....

[Wolf]

No, Don- You're supposed to trash the other guy...;)

Wait, a sec (off checking page 2 of this thread)- You definitely had them confused. Moss is on deserved 2nd place, not third.

[Don Capps]

Whatever.

I really wasn't looking all that closely and the layout is a tad confusing to boot.



Besides, it simply shows that these things are sorta silly anyway.......

[Mobetta]

At least the RAC Rally had a strong lobby, none of the other classic rally events rated a mention.Clearly they didn't seriously consider Toivonen's career, otherwise they could never have listed his '85 RAC win while ignoring his much greater drive two months later in the Monte Carlo Rally.

His '85 RAC was a well-deserved victory in the debut appearance of the Lancia Delta S4, but when you consider that the factory Peugeots and Audis all eliminated themselves with crashes and breakdowns before the Lancias even had the opportunity to apply any pressure to them and then Alen and Toivonen only had the Metro 6R4's to fend off, and finally Alen ditched himself...well, it wasn't quite rendered to Henri without a fight, but almost.

Compare that to the 1986 Monte Carlo, where Toivonen took the lead from almost the beginning of the Common Run and held it until a spectator's car hit the Lancia on a transit stage.The accident was a real head on collision, too.The 'civilian' car (a Peugeot 505, I think) had its left front wheel pushed right back into the footwell and its hood rolled up like a garage door.Fiorio's mechanics worked for 39 minutes to make the Delta roadworthy, but its frame was twisted.The time lost to repairs put Henri behind the other two Lancias as well as most of the factory teams of Peugeot and Audi (including Mikkola and Rohrl).

Nevertheless, Toivonen didn't give up.Mechanical problems and accidents took their toll on his own teammates as well as the opposition and on the long 'Sisteron' stage the Lancia team got Henri back within striking distance of the leaders by dint of one of their patented mid-stage quick tire changes.In the latter stages of the rally Toivonen passed Mikkola and the result depended on a showdown between Toivonen and the reigning World Champion and Peugeot team leader, Timo Salonen

At night, on the last long stage of the rally, Col de la Cuillole, which was wet tarmac for the first several kilometers giving way to ice and snow near the gap and returning to wet tarmac at the end, Toivonen gained a full 2 minutes on Salonen and thereby won the rally.There was nothing wrong with the Peugeot.Salonen mumbled something about making the wrong tire choice, but the Michelin technicians said that Salonen's tires were the exact equivalent of the Pirellis on Toivonen's machine.

Summing up:Opposed by all the first class competitors of rallying's 'golden age', despite major time loss through no fault of his own,fighting a twisted chassis,a hurt knee & dreadful conditions, Toivonen grasps victory in the world's classic event...it would make my top ten.

[Rick Baumhauer]

Actually, Don has it right, the previous poster had the order wrong - SM/DSJ Mille Miglia '55 is 3rd, Senna at Donington is 2nd. As a Senna fan, I was pleased to see four of his drives in the top 20, but I have to agree that any such list is monumentally subjective by nature.

That said (and with all due respect to Don, whose opinion on Senna is well-known), Donington '93 was the greatest drive I've ever seen (but I'm a youngster at 34) - just re-watched the tape a few days ago, as a matter of fact. The opening laps were the most dramatic case of one driver towering above the rest in my experience, and I still remember the chills running up and down my spine when I watched it live. Does it deserve to be ranked #2 of all time? Perhaps not, but it was pure magic from where I sat.

Another small correction - somebody wondered about Schumacher France '94 at #17 - this is actually Spain '94, where he finished 2nd with the car stuck in 5th gear.

[Don Capps]

I didn't think about it earlier, but almost all the recent races cited -- all the Schumacher (Bumper), Senna (Thumper), etc. ones -- from "F1" seemed to be where a driver "dominated" or drove away from the field. Perhaps this is a subtle cultural nuance, but then again maybe it reflects the change in the thinking that people approach racing with these days -- where once we expected (or hoped for) wheel-to-wheel, man-to-man, lap-after-lap battles, today wiping the floor with the competition and motoring off into the sunset is now considered the criteria for greatness.

Again, these exercises are of little consequence and merely the modern equivalent of parlor discussions and about as valid. I still marvel that so many FF races made the cut and races like Phil Hill at Peeble Beach didn't rate a peep. Mea culpa, but I was somewhat reluctant to turn Paul down since the opportunity to throw a few ringers into the works was too much to resist.

Well, if we were to quibble, the Stewart drive at the 1968 German GP was inifinitely more impressive than the 1993 Donington event since Stewart did it using the Mark 1A version of driver aids -- his brain on on a 22.8-km circuit versus a modified (albeit better than most) kart track. However, whatever, each must decide for themselves and seeing is a big part of it, so you are to be considered very fortunate, Rick, to have been present at a race which really impressed you, as well as others.

I really wish Gordon Kirby, Pete Lyons, Chris Economaki, and few others had been on the panel. I think I was one of the very, very few non-Brits and non-Euros who was asked to place their bets in this game. What, one NASCAR race? No John Cannon at the Laguna Seca Can-Am in 1968? Or Tony Dean at the Road Atlanta Can-Am in 1970? No 1976 Daytona (I think this was one I nominated, but I am not sure, but I know I thought about it)? No Longford races, such as Phil Hill in 1965 or Piers Courage in 1968? Or...

[dmj]

Donington '93 was the greatest drive I've ever seen (but I'm a youngster at 34) - just re-watched the tape a few days ago, as a matter of fact. The opening laps were the most dramatic case of one driver towering above the rest in my experience, and I still remember the chills running up and down my spine when I watched it live. Does it deserve to be ranked #2 of all time? Perhaps not, but it was pure magic from where I sat.

Greatest performance by a driver I have seen in my 20 year's experience (although Alboreto in Monaco 1985 is almost closer to my heart, and that finish of Austrian GP was unforgettable too.

[Scorcho]

I kind of miss Ronnie Peterson in your lists. There are a lot of good racing that deserves to be mentioned on this list. How about 9 poles in one season (14 races) 1973 in a very competetive field of drivers? How about winning 3 races at Monza? 1973-1974 and 1976, the last one in a March (?). Talk about driving around the car?

[Breadmaster]

I think Johnny Herbert deserves 3 places....sort of.
They are in 3 different disaplines FFord, LeMans and Grand Prix......ok maybe 3 is too many but they are all good!

[Chris Bloom]

Originally posted by Breadmaster
I think Johnny Herbert deserves 3 places....sort of.
They are in 3 different disaplines FFord, LeMans and Grand Prix......ok maybe 3 is too many but they are all good!

I was at Brands Hatch for the 1985 FF World Cup and I witnessed a great drive. It's difficult to describe to someone who wasn't there, Hollywood couldn't have got away with a script like that if they had tried!

Chris

[Mila]

I suppose that any top-100 list would be contentious (just as would a top-1000 list).

but I have to say that the Herbert bias is palpable. to boot, the drives of Schumacher and Senna seem to have gravitated towards the top of the list. how is it Lehto's 95 Le Mans effort--lapping 15 seconds per lap faster than any other driver over double stints, at night, in the rain--ranks 94th, yet Schumacher’s Spanish win in 96 ranks 26th? and how is it Senna’s 84 Monaco drive ranks 14th, yet Bellof, in that same race, weighs in at the 27th spot? after all, haven’t we established at TNF that Senna’s pace was no better than that of several of the other drivers, and that it was Bellof, the man catching Senna, whose talent shone brightest on that day?

anyway, I enjoyed the article.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Fines: Hungary 1998 - #23. Schumacher also has Barcelona 96 at #26, Spa 1995 at #25, Barcelona 1994 at #17 and Spa 1997 at #68.

Originally posted by Gary C
17 - Michael Schumacher 1994 French GP

Now who had his geography wrong? Barry, Gary or MotorSport?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Falcadore
Ray,
Just been told in another forum, that Bruce McPhee said recently in a 'Unique Cars' interview that the points had been closing up in his own car which prevented him from closing the gap any further than he had.

I've spent a bit of time with Bruce over the years, that story has been consistent through all that time...

As I said, he could have won by a lap.

You wait till you get the chance for him to tell you the story about how his (FoMoCo) car changed ride height between practice and race day!

[Corners]

Originally posted by MattFoster
Well said Ross,

GV's win at Jarama in 81 was a supreme example of the old adage of "holding the line". I hope that it ranked highly on the list.

Yeah great but its banned now so where does that leave the modern drivers they're not allowed to block ?

[aditya-now]

I think Johnny Herbert deserves 3 places....sort of.
They are in 3 different disaplines FFord, LeMans and Grand Prix......ok maybe 3 is too many but they are all good!

So out of the 100 best drives in history Johnny Herbert did 3, that is astounding. A strike rate of 33,333%!
Always liked Johnny but never noticed he was that great.

[Amphicar]

I'm a little surprised not only that Vic Elford's stunning drive in the 1968 Targa Florio did not make the top 100 list but that no-one has even mentioned it (until now).

[Jean L]

:eek: I see nowhere
Giovanni Bracco,Mille Miglia 1952
Henri Pescarolo,24 Heures du Mans 1968

[jj2728]

Yeah great but its banned now so where does that leave the modern drivers they're not allowed to block ?

He wasn't blocking, the hp of the turbo Ferrari on the straight and his sublime car control are what kept him in front.

[Ray Bell]

Is it time to get out of the ordinary with this thread?

Perhaps I should tell of Peter Hopwood's finest drive... would that be a good idea?

If guts and determination, planning and execution, bluff and subterfuge, not to mention a bitter result come into it to combine to make for a drive that remains admired by all who knew what was going on that day, that is the drive.

[seldo]

So out of the 100 best drives in history Johnny Herbert did 3, that is astounding. A strike rate of 33,333%!
Always liked Johnny but never noticed he was that great.

My maths teacher must have been a dope - I would have made that 3%...

[Lee Nicolle]

Is it time to get out of the ordinary with this thread?

Perhaps I should tell of Peter Hopwood's finest drive... would that be a good idea?

If guts and determination, planning and execution, bluff and subterfuge, not to mention a bitter result come into it to combine to make for a drive that remains admired by all who knew what was going on that day, that is the drive.

There was afew Ray, In the Elan against Moffatt, the audacity shown in the Chev and very unsung in the Capri.

[sherpa]

Australia 1979 Bathurst 1000 , Peter Brock led from start to finish, had pole position, and broke the lap record on the last lap,after 1000 klms[I dont think they broke his lap record for a couple of years] I am also reasonably sure he won by a couple of laps.

[h4887]

We all suffer to some extent from anosognosia whether we wish to acknowledge that fact or not

I'm not aware that I suffer from that!

[Lee Nicolle]

Australia 1979 Bathurst 1000 , Peter Brock led from start to finish, had pole position, and broke the lap record on the last lap,after 1000 klms[I dont think they broke his lap record for a couple of years] I am also reasonably sure he won by a couple of laps.

I reckon he got the record, or fastest lap in 73 too in the XU1.It was a thing with hime, pound out a flier on the last lap, while waving to the crowd!!

[thomaskomm]

HI, Jim Hurtubise in practice 1960 did in Indy almost 150 mph in 4 laps for qualifying, 4 mph faster than all! What a great archievement! But the best race was undoubtly from Juan Manuel Fangio 1957 Nürburgring!
Thomas

Edited by thomaskomm, 02 February 2011 - 17:19.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
There was a few Ray, In the Elan against Moffat, the audacity shown in the Chev and very unsung in the Capri.

While you are quite correct in all of that, Lee... it was none of them...

I reckon he got the record, or fastest lap in '73 too in the XU1. It was a thing with him, pound out a flier on the last lap, while waving to the crowd!

You can bet that the waving to the crowd wasn't so intense down the Esses!

But you are right, he sought to get the fastest lap on the final tour to underline the fact that the car was still in good shape at the end... and that he was too. In '73, of course, he was still flying trying to catch up for the time Chivo lost by taking a wide line into Murrays.

And sherpa, he did win by laps, but more than just a couple. I don't recall whether it was six or seven. But he did have Jim Richards' help, don't forget.