41 replies to this topic

[Boniver]

In Netherland was on



7 to 13 july 1 8 9 8 Paris – AMSTERDAM – Paris (3°GP ACF)
1° Charron – Panhard-Levassor and the first internationale race (oudside France)


28 aug 1902 – Nationale Concours d’Elegance – Boulevard Scheveningen – 1° Merkus

xx-xx-1906 – Boulevard Scheveningen - 1° A. Lee Guinness – Darracq

and than

1948 Zandvoort – GP van Nederland



Can someone help complete the race result in Scheveningen

And was there no one race between 1906 and 1948 in Netherland

So yes, why there was no racing in Netherland. :

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Boniver
And was there no one race between 1906 and 1948 in Netherland

So yes, why there was no racing in Netherland. :

Well, according to the Zandvoort website, there was a race in Zandvoort on a street circuit in the village on June 3, 1939! See http://www.circuit-z...rie/circuit.asp
The result:

The second question is a good one, I'm afraid I can only deliver guesswork.
First of all, people don't realize nowadays how very calvinistic this country still was in the first half of the last century. And the common saying was: "Doe maar gewoon, dan ben je gek genoeg" (Behave like normal, that looks silly enough). We didn't have much of a joyful, spending, adventurous elite like some other countries in Europe. Cars were few, and driven by doctors and lawyers, if not by their chauffeurs. Almost everybody else rode a bike (ideal in this flat country) or went by public transport (very entensive network those days)!
And strange as it may seem now, even bike races on the public roads were completely forbidden in pre-WW II Netherlands! When Theo Middelkamp won a Tour de France stage in 1936 in the Alps(the first Dutchman to do so) his only bike race experience was in Belgium or on the piste.
Bike races were forbidden because in those days of 6-day working weeks, they should have been held on Sundays - and that was the Day of the Lord....
Using public roads for motor racing would of course have been even more out of the order.

It looked like things began to change with the growing popularity of the motor bike. Popular for being cheaper than a car, it also provided a possibility for "cheap" racing. So the Assen TT started in the late 20s on public roads closed for a weekend in some remote area of the country (bit like Le Mans). The Zandvoort website mentions that in the 30s some lobbying started for a permanent motor racing circuit. The street circuit race was part of the PR.
After the war, the Germans left some wide roads behind through the dunes - used for connecting the shore batteries of the Atlantik Wall. These were used as a basis for further development of the track (see also http://www.circuit-z...la1/history.asp ). An important role in this initiative was taken by Sammy Davis (no, not that one - I mean the Bentley driver!).

scheivlak

[Vitesse2]

A 3-litre Germain took a class win at Scheveningen in 1906 (don't know the driver though).

Scheivlak beat me to the street circuit!

[Marcor]

There was a meeting in 1923, 8 June, at Scheveningen. Not a circuit race but a 1 km sprint, flying km and stationary start 1 km.

Here the class winners:

Racing cars 7 L
1- Wieman (Mercedes), 32" - 19" 2

Racing cars 3 L
1- Snitsler (Speedford), 37" 4 - 25" 8

Racing cars 2 L
1- Hoeting (Bugatti), 44" 4 - 31" 8

Touring cars 5 L
1- Adrian (Vauxhall), 39" 8 - 27" 4

Touring cars 6 L
1- Parque (Lincoln), 44" 2 - 30" 4

Touring cars 7 L
1- Wieman (Mercedes), 32" 6 - 21" 6

Touring cars 3 L
1- X (Mercedes), 45" - 33" 8
2- Kimman (Essex), 48" 8 - 37" 2
3- Dekoff (Chevrolet), 51" 2 - 35" 2

Touring cars 2500 cc
1- X (Hansa) 51" 2 - 35" 2

Touring cars 2 L
1- Stortenbeker (Bugatti), 48" - 35" 6
2- Hoeling (Bugatti ), 47" 2 - 36" 6

Cyclecars
1- Vanderhort (Harley), 40" 2 - 31" 4


Sources: Belgian newspapers Les Sports and Le Matin (from A'pen).

In the 20's and 30's some projects of real autodrome in Netherlands appeared but nothing was materialised until Zandvoort...

[Michael Müller]

The Scheveningen event was also held on 18 & 19 May 1922. The winner of the 1923 7 liter touring class should read "Wieman", Theo Wieman was the director of Mercedes-Daimler Automobielmij., the Dutch Daimler affiliate, he won in both years the big classes for touring cars and for race cars, the touring car was a 28/95, and the race car a supercharged version of the 28/95, similar to the 1921/22 Targa Florio works cars. The car is reported to be the same in which Otto Salzer had won the Prague hill climb, and for Scheveningen 1922 it still had the short gearing (flying km 1922 = 21.8 sec, 1923 = 19.2 sec).

[David McKinney]

•I have seen reference to a kilometre event at Bussum in 1923 - is this another name for Scheveningen?
•In 1947 an airfield race-meeting was held at Leeuwarden. Probably a motorcycle meeting, but there was at least one sportscar race

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by David McKinney
•I have seen reference to a kilometre event at Bussum in 1923 - is this another name for Scheveningen?

No, Bussum lies in "het Gooi", east/southeast of Amsterdam, an area with some nice woods and villages full of villas and manorhouses, where quite a few wealthy, liberal, art&sports loving people used to live. Our TNF collegue Dennis David was born in that region!
Scheveningen is of course a seaside resort like Zandvoort. I guess they raced the boulevard in front of the Kurhaus....

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by scheivlak
I guess they raced the boulevard in front of the Kurhaus....

Correct. I have a picture from Wieman in 1922, if really some interest out there, I will scan and upload it.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Michael Müller


Correct. I have a picture from Wieman in 1922, if really some interest out there, I will scan and upload it.

Well it was still quite a unique event......and I'll be interested in the background too!

[Frank de Jong]

A few books on Zandvoort reveals the following:
In 1916, in Bergen op Zoom, unofficial races were held at a cycle track, with among others Hans Herkuleyns.
In 1933, early in May a race seem to have been held in Beek, Limburg.
Some dirt-track racing has been held as well.

About the 1939 Zandvoort race:
June 2 (practice) and 3 (races). Attendance 60.000.
Demonstration runs by Hans Stuck, Auto Union, and Manfred von Brauchitsch, Mercedes.
(Street) Circuit length 2284 m, situated not far from the main entrance of the later circuit.
58 participants in total.
Race 1, class A, 750 cc:
1. C. Rijshouwer, DKW
Race 2 (?)
1. H. Richten, MG
Race 3
1. Jhr Teding van Berkhout, Citroën
Race 4 (?)
1. L. Bena, Lancia Aprillia
Race 5, class E
1. R. Tielens, Delahaye
Race 6, class K, sportscars over 1500 cc. 45 laps
1. P. Nortier, BMW 328
2? L. Breeman
DNF Maus Gatsonides, Kwik

I could scan a few photo's, including the circuit map, if anyone is interested?

[David McKinney]

That info is of interest to me, at least, Frank - thanks!
And as an occasional visitor to Zandvoort, I'd certainly be interested in seeing a circuit map

[Marcor]

Michael, I've corrected the mispelling word. Now you can read WIEMAN for both big classes (Touring and racing cars)... And yes I'm also interested by your picture.

[Michael Müller]

I put the whole report of the 1922 Scheveningen event on my server, including the mentioned photo of Wieman at full speed in front of the Kurhaus (btw, one of my favourite places!).
Files are rather large to make the text still readable, therefore no direct link, but download only.

http://www.axos.nl/r...eveningen-1.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...eveningen-2.jpg

Sorry, forgot the source:
Steiger's "Automobilrennen und Wettbewerbe in aller Welt - Teil 2 - 1909-1929", which is a reprint of articles from the contemparary magazine "Der Motorwagen".

[scheivlak]

Fantastic, Michael!
The Scheveningen boulevard used as a dragstrip!

Some remarks:
- I'm surprised by the Spyker entries, and certainly that of the Peking-Paris car! Must be one of the first "Retro racing" appearances in history. I doubt however that it was the same chassis....

- Interesting to see Frits Koolhoven as a competitor. He was "that other Dutch airplane manufacturer", alongside Anthony Fokker. The excellent website http://www.koolhoven...troduction.html memorizes his start as a Minerva driver and dealer (OT: there are some interesting planes to see as well on this site, strangest of all the 15 (!) wing design of 1916... - and he designed the world's first passenger plane as well).

- The reports names Koolhoven as the winner of "unserer Paris-Den Haag-Fahrt". Anything known about that?

[Michael Müller]

Nothing known about Paris - Den Haag event. Steiger does not reprint the complete "Motorwagen" reprint, only certain articles. The 1901 Spyker for sure was no official entry, but probably only a method to show the public how Spyker cars developed over the last 20 years, in fact a "historic car". Btw, Peking-Paris was 1907, so I have my doubts that a 5 year old car participated.

[Frank de Jong]

I promised some pictures about the 1939 race.
As a touring car freak, we must start with division 1 of the 1939 ETC ;)



The Mercedes demo run:



Finally, the circuit layout. The main entrance of the current Zandvoort track is in the top right:



The text tells us:
"Map of a part of Zandvoort, with track (shaded) and traffic measures."

[paulhooft]

I have done some reseach and found out that there was some sprintcar style racing in 1937 and 38 at the Zuijlensteyn sportscomplex in Rotterdam,
and sprintcar races at the horse racing track at Duynright, Wassenaar, near The Haque in mid october 1946.
I have some information on the races including some photo's,
but I am looking for more information about the races,
can anyone help me with that??
Paul Hooft
Netherlands

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by paulhooft
and sprintcar races at the horse racing track at Duynright, Wassenaar, near The Haque in mid october 1946.

Or Duindigt, see: http://www.renbaanduindigt.nl/

and I'm always interested in pics.....

[BMW FW22]

MORE PICS OF ZANDY 1939.

PLEASE

[Svend]

WoW!

These photo's of the Zandy 1939-race are really useful to us!

I hope some of you are familiar with the simulation Grand Prix Legends. A group of the Dutch Simracing Zone has recently taken up the challenge to recreate the Zandvoort 1939-track for GPL. Since it runs partly through the town itself and partly through the dunes it provides us with an excellent opportunity to create a good looking track with some nice scenery. It's not very fast, and since the longest straight is about 350 metres long it's going to be wheelspin all over the place in our 400hp 1967 F1-cars:p But it should be very suitable for F2 for example.

In order to achieve that, we need photo's, lots of them:). In this thread at our forums, http://dutch.simraci...forum=6&start=0 , you can see some more maps of the track and some more photo's.

If anyone can help us out with more information, and that includes everything from photo's, maps, a program cover etc etc, please help us out:)


Regards,

Svend van der Vlugt
Dutch Simracing Zone

email: lister_storm@gmx.net

[Frank de Jong]

The pictures are from the book "100 jaar autosport 50 jaar circuit van Zandvoort NBI pubications 1998, ISBN 90804047 3 X NUGI 466. I bought it some time ago for a reduced price, perhaps you may find it somewhere in the Netherlands.

[paulhooft]

I have some pictures, But how do I upload them??
greetings
Paul

[Marcor]

More information about 1922:
The Scheveningen event was not only held on 18 & 19 May 1922 but lasted a complete week. The event was indeed known as The Scheveningue week.

I've found some infos about the meeting in newspapers dating back to May 1922. The first article (8 May, newspaper Le Matin) announced the event in those words: "The Motor Show of Den Haag is opened since Saturday 6. There will have next week, at the seaside, a festival of speed with cars and motorbikes. 44 cars and 60 motorbikes are already entered including - for the cars - Mercedes, Hupmobile, Peugeot, Hispano-suiza, Nagant, Studebaker, Opel, Unic, Voisin, Pic Pic, Lancia, Essex, Austro-Fiat, Spijker, Minerva, Austro-Daimler, Vauxhall, Delahaye, Talbot, Bugatti, Pierce Arrow, Sunbeam, Ballot, Cubitt, Rolls-Royce, Dürkopp and Fox..."

Three other editions of Le Matin also spoke about the Scheveningen week but I've found nothing about the last day of racing.

The first report (Monday 15 May) gave those results:

Cars 2500 cc
1- Vaneessel (Bugatti), 53" 3/5 - 37" 1/5
2- A. H. Stuhr (Dürkopp), 53" 2/5 - 41" 1/5
3- Mario (Austro-Fiat), 1' 13" 1/5 - 51" 4/5

Cars 3500 cc
1- Kimman (Essex), 51" - 40"
2- Vintges (Studebaker), 55" - 44" 2/5
3- Berkhout (Pic Pic), 58" 4/5 - 51" 4/5
4- Hessiger (Hupmobile), 1' 02" 1/5 - 51" 4/5
5- Baron Hoboken (Unic), 1' 06" 3/5 - 52"
6- Riemers (Cubit), 1' 10" 2/5 - 53" 4/5

Cars 5500 cc
1- Adrian (Vauxhall), 45" - 30" 4/5
2- Baron Storm (Lancia), 45" 2/5 - 33" 3/5
3- Adrian (Delahaye), 49" 4/5 - 35"

Second reports (Wesnesday 17 May) spoke about motorbike and side-cars and is OT here.

Third reports (Friday 19 May) is checked by the infos of Michael.

3500 - 4500 cc
1- Baron G. Tindal (Voisin), 50" 1/5 - 31" 1/5
2- F. Horstman (Mercedes), 48" 1/5 - 34" 1/5

5500 - 6500 cc
1- F. Koolhoven (Spijker), 41" 1/5 - 27" 2/5
2- Henri Wynmalen (Spijker), 47" 1/5 - 32" 1/5
3- A.E. Braat jr (Spijker), 50" 3/5 - 38" 2/5

6500 cc and more
1- Theo Wieman (Mercedes), 36" - 24"
2- Theo Wieman (Mercedes), 39" 3/5 - 27" 2/5

At the end of the race, an oldtimer vehicle, "the old Spijker" which took part in the raid Paris-Pekin, made a show and ran the kilometre (start stationary) in 1' 13" 4/5 (49 km/h).

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by paulhooft
I have some pictures, But how do I upload them??
greetings
Paul

Paul, if you have some webspace available (at your provider, for instance), put the pictures there; in TNF thread, make a link to those pictures by the IMG button at the "post reply"section.

[Boniver]

Great work, and thanks for posting it

[paulhooft]

This is a photo of the AutoUnion record car during demonstratiions at Zandvoort 1939
the driver was Hans Stuck.
follow this link

http://us.f1.yahoofs...ck_sZ8AjVrpRAdY

[Vitesse2]

That doesn't work for me Paul ...

[Boniver]

On 11 juli 1925 the KNMV (Royal Dutch Motor Club) organization the first Dutch TT motor race on the street circuit of Asse.

This great success of the race in Asse and the great success of the Nurburgring who was open in 1927, is the motivation of the KNMW and KNAC (Royal Dutch Auto Club) to creation in 1930 a permanent race circuit.

In 1932 Van Wessel en Wind (bureau Buvani) of Arnhem make a first project.
On the Veluwe near Deelen a racecircuit of 35 km “Auto Baan Celeritas”
But the budget was not find.

1933 town Heerlen make a project for a racecircuit (wijk Heksenberg)
With subsidy of the governoment ( give employent for 500 workmen for 3 years)
But the budget was not rond

1934 Van Wessel en Wind (bureau Buvani) of Arnhem make a second project
Johannahoeve in Oosterbeek (station) circuit of 15 km
But the KNMW had give a 10 years monopolie for Assen , and need no more a race circuit, and the KNAC wil Heerlen and give here word for a race in 1935 (but the work never start)

1934 Van Wessel en Wind (bureau Buvani) of Arnhem make a third project
“Planken Wambuis” between Arnhem and Ede
But te budget was not find

December 1936 foundation of NARC (Nederlandse Auto Race Club) with the action “Nationaal Sport Steunfonds” for finance project 3 , but also the NARC find money.

1938 the KNAC and KNMW work together with NAM “Stichting Nederlandse Auto- en Motorrenbaan” for a circuit “De Krakeling” a Zeist 4,5 km .
This circuit was 4 years a test circuit, and there was now make a plan to construction a racecircuit. But before lay the first stone it was WOII

In 1939 Zeist was not ready , so the KNAC organization a first autorace on the street circuit in Zandvoort.
And so, after the war there come no circuit in Zeist, but a real circuit in Zandvoort with English and Dutch money

In 1965 there was a idee for a second circuit on the recreation park “Beekse Bergen” in Tilburg.

When Zandvoort had troubles in 1980, financieel and milieu (sound), a new project was start for a new circuit . But where :
- Born on the DAF faktory
- Between Uden and Odiliapeel by Budel
- De Maaslandlaan - Rosmalen
- Moerdijk – Lelystad - Rotterdam
- Reimerswaal - Zeeland

When Zandvoort in 1985 was close, start the project “Ontwikkeling Nationaal Circuit”
The place for the new circuit was :
Moerdijk – Lelystad - Rotterdam
“world racing park” a place for auto, inclusief the Grand Prix, motorsport and speedbootracing racing.
The concern Van der Valk (hotels and restaurants) wil invest 50 milj €.
Ecclestone dream in Rotterdam and not in Moscow , he was not wild
There was beautiful maquette, and no more money,
Farewell GP


In 1964 open the 800 m ovaal “De Berckt” in Baarlo for autospeedway racing,
with from 1977 the WK stockrace race .
But in 27 september 1998 was last race,
The circuit is close and the are now week-end cottage.

[paulhooft]

I am very impressed with all this information and invite all you to join Forces and become a member of the Dutch Racing History forum.

The purpose of the forum is to know more about the history of Autoracing in the Netherlands, the drivers, the cars, the circuits, races and events.
The forum likes to concentrate on the period between 190 and the closing of the famous old circuit of Zandvoort back in the 80's.

You are invited to join!
I am really looking forward to see your membership!

http://groups.yahoo....seracehistorie/

greetings
Paul Hooft

[Marcor]

About the 1939 Zandvoort race: I've add some results in bold

Race 1, class A, 750 cc:
1. C. Rijshouwer, DKW 69 km/h
2. R. Smeets, DKW
3. P. Smeets, DKW

Race 2, 1100 cc
1. H. Richten, MG 73 km/h
2. Voelink, MG
3. Vanheemstra, Fiat

Race 3, 2 L
1. Jhr Teding van Berkhout, Citroën 77 km/h
2. Everts, BMW
3. Breve, Citroën

Race 4 (?),1500 cc
1. L. Bena, Lancia Aprillia 75 km/h
2. Verkammen, Opel
3. Vandermandele, MG

Race 5, class E, + 3 L
1. R. Tielens, Delahaye (or Thielens) 80 km/h
2. Diepen, Ford
3. Ton, Ford

Race ?, 3 L
1. Vermeulen, Opel 74 km/h
2. Beels, Bugatti

Race ?, class K, sportscars over 1500 cc. 45 laps
1. P. Nortier, BMW 328 84 km/h
2. L. Breeman BMW 328
3. Jonkheer de Pester, BMW 328*
DNF Maus Gatsonides, Kwik

Sources: Les Sports (5 or 6 June 1939)

*: Jonkheer de Pester won the 1938 Dumonceau Cup. Is it possible to have more info about that "race"?

AFIAK It was a kind of rallye with some flying sprints, hillclimb races, cross-country races, secrete route, and even circuit races. In 1939 the races crossed the South of the Belgium and the GD of Luxemburg but it was a Dutch organisation. Last details: it was opened to motorcycles, sidecars and cars.

[Henk Vasmel]

I have just found this thread. I have in my database a few more data about competitors, most of them without results.
Another omission in this thread is the absence of the "Slag bij Oldebroek" in 1938, a "race" on an unmade track, less than 3 miles from where I was born, and where my father still lives. It was run in an area which is now out of bounds, because it is part of a shooting range, where unexploded grenades "might" be found. It also was in the thirties, but presumably blowing up a few spectators was less of a problem then.

From the way it was run, I would consider this to be a race, rather than a trial or a rallye. But from the cars present, i would classify it as a touring car race. It was won by Frits Diepen in a Ford, with four more races for the smaller classes.

Since a few newspapers now have a full set of issues on-line, I have been able to find a (hopefully) complete list of participants. The same goes for the Zandvoort race in '39.

If anyone is interested, I will try to put it all here.

[Rob Semmeling]

Here's the entry list for the 1939 Zandvoort race from "Motor":

[Henk Vasmel]

Splendid. The only thing that I had which is not on this list, is the winner of the 1.1 race, Henk Richten on MG. Probably a late entry?

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

[paulhooft]

Latest news...
This sunday at 13.00....
There is a documentary (in Dutch) on Dutch spoken RTL7...
About 60 years racing at Zandvoort...
Hope it is a good one...
PcH

[Arjan de Roos]

Thanks Paul!

[Rob Semmeling]

Originally posted by paulhooft I am very impressed with all this information and invite all you to join Forces and become a member of the Dutch Racing History forum.

(...)

http://groups.yahoo....seracehistorie/

Whatever became of this?

Originally posted by paulhooft
Latest news...
This sunday at 13.00....
There is a documentary (in Dutch) on Dutch spoken RTL7...
About 60 years racing at Zandvoort...
Hope it is a good one...
PcH

From the RTL7 website:

Sunday 10 August

13.45 - 60 Jaar Circuit Zandvoort
14.15 - Masters of Formula 3
15.40 - GP Zandvoort 1979

[paulhooft]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by paulhooft I am very impressed with all this information and invite all you to join Forces and become a member of the Dutch Racing History forum.

(...)

http://groups.yahoo....seracehistorie/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Whatever became of this?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Dutch Racing History Forum was deleted from Yahoo about 2 years ago, as it had no posts for a long, long time.
In fact you are only the second person who is asking about it......
since it stopped...

PcH

[Rob Semmeling]

That's a shame, Paul. Unfortunately there seem to be very few people in the Netherlands interested in motorsport history and doing research.

[Frank de Jong]

Or they are too busy posting at other bulletin boards ;)

[Barttore]

Hello all,
Big topic kick here.
I researched a part of Dutch racing history over the last year.
While doing so I contacted several relatives of the drivers and other sources and obtained some materials from private albums.
- RELM Tielens (Bugatti, Delahaye, Jaguar)
- PM Smeets (DKW, Bugatti)
- F Ligtvoet (Bugatti)
- FP van Rumpt (Delahaye, Amilcar, Bugatti)
- E Hertzberger (I visited his son: Aston Martin, MG, Bugatti, FN, Lancia, Bentley, Ferrari, Mercedes)

Also collected a lot of info on CJ van Hulzen end some on JW Rens
If anybody needs info let me know if I can help.
Bart

[David McKinney]

Sounds fascinating, Bart

Are you going a book? Or a website?

[Barttore]

Hello David,
As you may have guessed the common denominator of my research was Bugatti: Bugatti racing / Bugatti's in motorsports events in the Netherlands and Dutchmen driving Bugatti's abroad.
The result of my research has already been published last june in part 3 of the Dutch/Belgian Bugatti register. But research continues as there are still mysteries to be solved.
Michael, Frank and Rob who are also in this topic contributed in this study.

To the list of plans to create a dedicated racing track I can add this one: In January 1923 plans were drawn for a circuit near Amsterdam/Schiphol by architect Baanders . It was never realized. (Source: Amsterdam Community Archives: Inventory archive Architectenbureau Baanders; files of Herman Ambrosius Jan Baanders and Jan Baanders; files 2646-2647 concerning the design of a car-racing track on the Schiphol-site.)

Edited by Barttore, 05 October 2012 - 10:59.