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Racing colours pre-war


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#1 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 22:38

In the Eifelrennen in 1934 Mercedes Benz had problems passing the weight limit. Their car was too heavy with the brake fluid (which had to be in the car during the check). As a result they removed the white paint. This helped them to gain weight and thus the 'Silver Arrows' was born. In stead of the traditional German whit national colours they used Silver from then on.

My question is : Auto Union also switched to Silver. When did this happen, what decided them to switch also from the national white to silver ?

PS : Does anyone know the national racing colour of Sweden ?

PS 2 : Whitney Straight, born in the States but lived in England almost all his life : what was the colour he used to race in ? I have seen pictures of him in a white Maserati but also in a green one ?

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 22:51

Whitney Straight's cars were normally painted black, with silver trim. At some point he did adopt US racing colours, but he took British citizenship in 1933, so presumably he abandoned them again at that point.

#3 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:12

PS : Does anyone know the national racing colour of Sweden ?



Yellow.

Stefan

#4 Marcor

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:24

National colour of Belgium is / was Yellow. I think the one of Sweden was yellow and blue ...

Coys presents at that moment a yellow Bugatti and says it was from Mr and Mrs Junek. That's strange.

#5 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:25

Stefan, are U sure it was yellow since that's Belgiums colour. I thought Sweden used blue with a yellow stripe but I'm not sure.

BTW what about the colour of Austria ?

#6 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:26

Vitesse, does this mean that Straight used the British racing green from 1934 onwards ?

#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:33

Black again, AFAIK: there is an article on Straight by Eoin Young in the February 2002 issue of Motor Sport.

#8 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:34

www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8750/colors.html

Found it ! : Sweden is blue & yellow . Austria is blue.

#9 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:37

Whitney Straight often entered two cars. Was the 2nd car (usually driven by Hugh Charles Hamilton) also in black or in British Racing Green ?

Why did straight use black ?

And when did Auto Union start using Silver ?

#10 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:45

What about Laszlo Hartmann : in what colour did he race ?

#11 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:46

Thank U Michaël , looking forward to that :D . :up:

#12 Michael Müller

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:51

One of our friends - forgot who, may be Felix or Dennis - posted this some time ago in another thread.

Posted Image
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#13 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:54

Great, but the question remains : why did Whitney Straight use the national colour of Finland ?

And secondly : did Hartmann actually use his national colours ?

#14 William Hunt

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Posted 27 January 2002 - 23:56

In the 1934 Eifelrennen there was a Bugatti T35C driven by a certain driver named H. STOLZE ? Who was he and what was his first name ? It seems like he was German.

#15 Rob G

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 04:44

Originally posted by William Hunt
did Hartmann actually use his national colours ?

I've seen a couple of pictures of Laszlo Hartmann's cars. In Monaco in 1933 he drove what appears to be a plain white Bugatti. I remember seeing him in a 1937 photo in a Maserati that was painted three different colors, and since the color at the center of the car was white, I can only assume that the front was red and the back was green as shown in the book that Michael Muller posted below.

#16 Rob29

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 09:22

Originally posted by Marcor
National colour of Belgium is / was Yellow. I think the one of Sweden was yellow and blue ...

Coys presents at that moment a yellow Bugatti and says it was from Mr and Mrs Junek. That's strange.

My information is that the Junek car was yellow & black. I have a print of a painting of it in the Targa Florio,but as this was before the advent of colour photography,I can't guarantee that the artist got it right!

#17 Mark Ballard

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 13:11

Re- Whitney Straight. I was under the impression that he painted his Maseratis black mainly because it was his choice what colour to paint his cars and he preferred black. Certainly the MG K3 he had has always been black (as far as I am aware).
I remember reading somewhere that the Maseratis were only painted White with the Blue chassis for races where the organizers insisted on the cars being painted in nation colours (usually continental races) and then returned to Black later.

- I look forward to someone with more knowledge correcting me!

#18 Don Capps

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 14:13

Originally posted by Mark Ballard
Re- Whitney Straight. I was under the impression that he painted his Maseratis black mainly because it was his choice what colour to paint his cars and he preferred black. Certainly the MG K3 he had has always been black (as far as I am aware).
I remember reading somewhere that the Maseratis were only painted White with the Blue chassis for races where the organizers insisted on the cars being painted in nation colours (usually continental races) and then returned to Black later.

- I look forward to someone with more knowledge correcting me!


William, There was not a strict requirement that entrants race in their national colors, particularly private entrants. The factory teams usually did use the national colors, but the rainbow was open to the private entrants -- unless the race organizer made it a stipulation. Not to mention that some entrants did not have future historians in mind as they changed the color schemes of their cars. Somewhere there was a thread or discussion on how colors are depicted in the various types of B&W film in use during the early decades of the last century.

This is a Noble Effort, as they say. Hang in there.


As Michael and others such as myself have pointed out in the past, Don Alfredo's veracity was often a victim of not letting a good story be spoiled by something so dull as facts.....

#19 William Hunt

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 15:31

Thanks Don, I'm very glad to see U show up in this thread since U always add something extra ;) (it's a pitty we had our collision in that other thread, I clearly misunderstood U there, probably because I was lacking sleep at the time).

Anyway : I can't agree more about Neubauer. Alfred was a colourfull person but everything he said should be taking with caution. His vieuw of Tripoli '33 is even hilarious. I've read different stories about it and his is clearly made up. He even talks about a driver (Louis Chiron) who according to him played a big role and finished thired. Chiron didn't even participate in that race ! :p

I would love to find out who drove in national colours and if not so in what colour they drove ! Which organisers insisted on the use of national colours ?

I really love the '30s , it's my favourite era and I'm a Rosemeyer fan.

I think that Michaëls' white & silver colour explanation is the best version I've heard so far and most likely to be true. So that mistery seems solved. :up:

It also seems now that Hartmann did use his national colours.

I hope others will still add some info on our national racing colour investigation.

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#20 Michael Müller

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 15:59

Originally posted by William Hunt
So that mistery seems solved.


Don't think so, I believe I only scratched somewhat on the surface.

#21 William Hunt

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 17:49

Originally posted by Mark Ballard
Re- Whitney Straight. ... I remember reading somewhere that the Maseratis were only painted White with the Blue chassis for races where the organizers insisted on the cars being painted in nation colours (usually continental races) and then returned to Black later. ...


Does this mean that Whitney Straight entered races like for example Mothléry in a white with blue chassis car ?

#22 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 January 2002 - 21:54

I believe that it was a requirement of International status meetings that cars were painted in the entrant's national colours. When Whitney Straight raced the Maserati 3011 in International races in the early part of 1934 it was painted in American racing colours. Towards the end of the year he returned to England and competed in some National status events. For these he painted the car his preferred black. It was nothing to do with whether the races were on the Continent.

Straight's last race in the car was on December 27 1934 in South Africa. In April 1935 he got married and retired from motor racing, aged 23.

#23 Barry Lake

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 15:12

Originally posted by Holger Merten
And so it took three years that the name was printed. Ans just to add that. About the name "Silberpfeil". The name and the right belong to Audi since the early 90s. They made a deal with MB: not to use that name for a car (it was the time they showed the Audi Avus in Tokio in 1991) and Mb gave back all rights about the name Horch and the Logo and so on. ( It was the time of the A8m shown as show car in 1993 in Frankfurt and Tokio, presentend in 1994)



Sorry to head off at a tangent (again), but Holger did mention The Audi Avus and the Tokyo Motor Show. Since Holger and Brun are so much into Audi they might be able to confirm something for me.

At that 1991 Tokyo Motor Show, I went to the Audi stand on Media Day to get a press kit. They began handing out little lapel badges of the Audi Avus and a huge horde of journalists, mostly European, I believe, began almost climbing over each other to get to them.

It all looked so dangerous and unseemly, I decided to find a quiet spot to sit and wait until the scrum was over.

There was a "coffee shop" set up at the side of the stand and there was just one person there, a very nice looking lady. She had seen it all and said something along the lines of, "Is that all a bit rough for you?' I said it was and she asked would I like a coffee while I waited for it to calm down.

"Now there's a good PR lady," I thought. She brought me the coffee and one for herself and we sat at a small table and chatted for 10 minutes or so, maybe more, about Japan, Tokyo, the Motor Show...

Then they began the presentation of the still-covered Avus. The man on the microphone said something like, "...and to unveil the car for you we have with us today...(world famous identity)"

My newfound friend said, "Sorry, I have to go and earn my living now.." and rushed over to her post, ready to unveil the car. She wasn't a PR/coffee lady after all, but the special guest for the occasion! And I hadn't recognised her.

After the big reveal and another unseemly scrum - this time the photographers - she had vanished from my sight. I picked up my press kit and left. I can't remember if I also eventually got a lapel badge or not - I must have a look.

However, can the Audi experts tell me who it was? I know the answer; I would just like to see it confirmed by someone else.



#24 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 15:56

So you have that nice press release of the 1991 Avus? Yes, they had bages of the Avus. Thats right they were sold in several sizes and for different ways to use them.

#25 Barry Lake

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 16:15

Holger

But who was the lady who unveiled the car?

#26 Holger Merten

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 14:08

Ha, ha, ha, so if you want to know the name of the Models working at the Tokyo Motorshow ask Herrn Kubossek of Audi's Exhibition Dept. He was at that time responsible for the Models. (Sure, he coudn't remeber.)

And I'm also sure, she didn't work by Audi and was from an agency. Back to the serious things. We have also soccer championchips.

#27 Geza Sury

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 14:49

Originally posted by William Hunt
Did Hartmann actually use his national colours ?

The Hungarian sources suggest the first of Hartmann's cars which had been painted in national colours (red, white and green - the colours of the Hungarian flag) was the Maserati 8CM, which Hartmann used in 1935. From that year onwards, his cars were already painted in national colours. Look at this thread for a picture! (although b&w)

#28 Barry Lake

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 14:57

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Ha, ha, ha, so if you want to know the name of the Models working at the Tokyo Motorshow ask Herrn Kubossek of Audi's Exhibition Dept. He was at that time responsible for the Models. (Sure, he coudn't remeber.)
And I'm also sure, she didn't work by Audi and was from an agency. Back to the serious things. We have also soccer championchips.


Holger, I know it is off topic, but this isn't a frivolous question. I really want to confirm who it was.

And I am confident he would remember this particular model, even this far into the future.

I am surprised it wasn't mentioned in any of the stories about the car being unveiled at the show.

They didn't have a whole horde of models, just one.

#29 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 07:14

Okay, taken it serious. Some pictures of the presentation?

#30 Brun

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 15:42

And still we do not know which famous and gorgeous model unveiled the Avus at the 1991 Tokyo Motor show... :cry:

#31 Holger Merten

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 18:07

Did you read the whole thread once again Brun?;)

#32 Brun

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 22:43

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Did you read the whole thread once again Brun?;)

Yeah. I have a tendency to over-focus on certain subjects :blush:

#33 Holger Merten

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Posted 15 February 2003 - 09:41

Brun, that's not a bad. To overfocus means also to look to the details. :)

#34 Holger Merten

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 07:20

I bring up this thread by the fact, that Caracciola was works-driver for Alfa Romeo in 1932. At the beginning of the season his car was painted white - cause the Italian teammates didn’t believe in the german driver. But after Caracciolas fairness against Nuvolari in the Monaco GP, his Alfa was painted also in Rosso Corso to sign he was accepted as a team member.
:confused:

I asked myself, on what depends the colour of the cars? On the nationality of the driver or on the nationality of the car (works team). And what about private drivers of that time. Which colour had for example HJ von Morgen's Bugatti in international races?
:confused:

If the colour of the car depends to the team, why was Caracciola's Alfa white at the beginning of the season? Or could be changed so easy in the middle of the season?
:confused:

And if the handling with the colour was so easy and a change of the colour was the decision of the team, then this explains, how easy it must have been for the germans to start silver instead of white in 1934?
:confused:

#35 Brun

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 09:21

And by the way.

When is someone finally going to tell me which famous and gorgeous model unveiled the Avus at the 1991 Tokyo Motor show...? :mad:

#36 Holger Merten

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 09:22

Brun, do you believe, they saved the paint bills from the 30s. :rotfl:

#37 Henk

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 23:48

Originally posted by Holger Merten
I asked myself, on what depends the colour of the cars? On the nationality of the driver or on the nationality of the car (works team). And what about private drivers of that time. Which colour had for example HJ von Morgen's Bugatti in international races?
:confused:

In the 1930s the Dutch motoring journalist and publicist Piet Olyslager painted watercolours of motor sport events. His paintings of racing cars are remarkably accurate. Around 1940 part of this work was reproduced in a series of coloured postcards. These old postcards now provide some quantitative information confirming that racing colours were determined by the nationality of the manufacturer, ‘scuderia’ or person that entered the car.

A good example is a painting of the Dieppe GP of 1935.
Five cars can be identified [Car – Driver - Entered by – Colour]:

Alfa Romeo (I) - Chiron (MC) - Scuderia Ferrari (I) - red (I)
Alfa Romeo (I) - Dreyfus (F) - Scuderia Ferrari (I) - red (I)
Bugatti (F) - Benoist (F) - Benoist (F) - blue (F)
Bugatti (F) - Howe (GB) - Howe (GB) - green (GB)
Maserati (I) - Featherstonhaugh (GB) - Rüesch (CH) - white/(red) (CH) (tail not visible; should be red)

Other examples of private entries: a blue Maserati of Etancelin, a white Maserati of Pietsch, a white/red Maserati of Rüesch.

Paintings of British events show a variety of colours, except ‘British racing green’.

There are also three paintings of ‘Silberpfeile’: MB of Caracciola, Montlhéry 1934; MB of Caracciola, Reims 1939; and AU of Nuvolari, Monza 1938. Unfortunately, silver is difficult to reproduce in watercolours. Yet, taking Pietsch’s Maserati as a reference, my guess would be white. But a quick poll (n=8; white or silver?) ended in a draw.

Yet this very draw may indicate the solution of the problem: not silver, but silver-white. Not really a change of colours. At least still white enough to be acceptable as Germany’s traditional racing colour.

For Auto Union this may have been the case during their first performance outside Germany. In his account of the 1934 Grand Prix at Montlhéry, Barré Lyndon mentions the colours of all participating cars. Some quotes:

Achille Varzi, with his scarlet Alfa-Romeo, and Hans Stuck with his white Auto-Union, were in the front rank and these two indicated the real quality of the event.

Standing beside it was the Auto-Union, silvery-white and strange in appearance.

The line-up was completed by Fagioli's white Mercedes, which stood by itself at the back.

Chiron dived into it, Caracciola bringing his white Mercedes to his tail while Varzi followed, with Dreyfus and Stuck.

The cars went down the switchback road in streaks of colour that flashed in the hot sunshine: scarlet, silver-white, scarlet again, dead-white, then red and then two flashes of French blue formed by the-Bugattis. These colours represented the nations - Italy, Germany and France.

The white machines held three of the first four places in the race - but Chiron did not attempt to overtake and regain leadership
.


It seems clear that at Montlhéry all German cars were white. But apparently AU and MB choose different paints: silver-white and dead-white. The dead-white didn’t survive.

#38 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 00:21

Originally posted by Holger Merten
I bring up this thread by the fact, that Caracciola was works-driver for Alfa Romeo in 1932. At the beginning of the season his car was painted white - cause the Italian teammates didn’t believe in the german driver. But after Caracciolas fairness against Nuvolari in the Monaco GP, his Alfa was painted also in Rosso Corso to sign he was accepted as a team member.
:confused:

I asked myself, on what depends the colour of the cars? On the nationality of the driver or on the nationality of the car (works team). And what about private drivers of that time. Which colour had for example HJ von Morgen's Bugatti in international races?
:confused:

If the colour of the car depends to the team, why was Caracciola's Alfa white at the beginning of the season? Or could be changed so easy in the middle of the season?
:confused:


To clear up the Caratsch question: in the early races his car was a works-supported entry, entered under his own name and painted white. At the Italian GP he was entered for the first time by Alfa Corse - in a red car. He reverted to white at Lwow, where Alfa did not run a works team: this was his last race in the Monza. From the French GP he had a red works-entered Tipo B. So the colour depended on the nationality of the entrant.

#39 dbw

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 00:23

von morgan's t-35b [4948] was blue as a factory car.[t-35c] it ran at monaco 1930,then converted to a 35-b...when sold to von morgan it was painted white and raced as such....photos of paul pietch,the next owner, still show the car in white...[period photos show a rather hasty white paint application...covering parts bugatti originally left unpainted,polished and oiled]..it is unclear exactly who applied the white paint..as the car was sold directly to von morgan [not thru a factory rep] it's quite possible it was painted at the works..[most likely the day before it was picked up!]the car's further traceable history indicates german owners and a white livery.

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#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 23:30

Originally posted by Brun
.....When is someone finally going to tell me which famous and gorgeous model unveiled the Avus at the 1991 Tokyo Motor show...? :mad:


I'm not sure, but reading between the lines, I suspect that Barry asked this because he possibly thought she was more than just a model...

This thread needed to surface again anyway... the issue of the 'scratching' has to be resolved for once and for all.

#41 Barry Lake

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:06

Originally posted by Brun
And by the way.

When is someone finally going to tell me which famous and gorgeous model unveiled the Avus at the 1991 Tokyo Motor show...? :mad:



Oh! This is THAT thread! :D

It was Margeaux Hemingway, but I didn't want to put the name into anyone's head; I wanted to be told "officially", or to see it in a report of the motor show, or the Avus, or whatever - just to convince myself it was true.

I was shocked when I heard she had taken her own life some time later. She seemed like one of the very few "together" famous people I had ever met - absolutely natural and unaffected. Which just goes to show you that outward appearances aren't always a good guide.

Looking back on it, I think she was pleased to talk to someone who wasn't fawning over her, wanting an autograph, or asking silly questions, or who wanted to spend some time with her just because she was famous.

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:28

Well, not being the highly travelled and luxuriously educated type, I'd never heard of her...

So I went googling...

Margeaux Hemingway was found dead in her Santa Monica apartment on July 1st. Police on the scene found no sign of forced entry, violence, or a suicide note and turned the case over to the coroner's office. Whether by coincidence or design, she ended her life very close to the same date that her grandfather, renowned novelist Ernest Hemingway committed suicide by shotgun. Ernest Hemingway's suicide came on the anniversary of his father's suicide.

Originally born Margot Hemingway, she changed her name to Margeaux after she learned her parents conceived her after they had drank an especially fine bottle of French Chateaux Margeaux.


But I really wanted to find a picture, seeing as I know you have exquisite taste in the female form...

And it was hard work (well, seeing as I wasn't prepared to pay for the nude ones on offer, and I don't consider the Vogue pics at all representative of anyone), but I found one and she looked pretty classy.

She must have been attracted by your raw good looks, Barry... felt they complemented hers...

http://www.imdb.com/.....gway, Margaux if anybody's interested...

Oh, yeah, there's two different spellings... 'Margeaux' and 'Margaux'... another one for you to ponder!

#43 David McKinney

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 09:15

Margaux is the right one
(not sure about the plonk spelling though)

#44 Barry Lake

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 09:33

I wasn't all that familiar with her story myself, to tell the truth, but I had heard of her, and knew she was Ernest's daughter.

Isn't the older sister supposedly more famous? Movie star or such; I think they both appeared in movies.

But when I came home from Japan, I asked all the females I could, if they could find me a recent photo of her. Someone did, in a women's magazine, and I said, "Yep, that's the lady who bought me a coffee, all right."

To which, of course, they said, "Yair, riiiight!"


(And thanks for the correct spelling, David. We thought you were an expert only on old racing cars.)
:)

#45 David McKinney

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 10:28

I always think spelling is very important, Barrie :lol:

Margaux was Ernest's granddaughter
Her younger sister is Mariel Hemingway

#46 Barry Lake

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 10:47

I knew THAT! :o

(I think I did, actually; just didn't put a lot of thought into the post.)

See what happens when you spend all your time thinking about cars and motor racing.

I should spend more time thinking about beautiful women. Then I'd have a broader education.

#47 Rob29

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:02

Thought I would revive this thread-just rediscovered it looking for something else.I remember Margaux from some film many years ago-.On another thread someone mentioned Canadian racing colours-white with green stripe Did anyone ever use this? Does anyone have a list of international racing colours? Last one I recall seeing was in 50s-which had colours for Latvia ,Lithuania and Estonia which I guess were pre-war as said nations had been swallowed by soviet union by then.

Edited by Rob29, 18 August 2012 - 07:30.


#48 D-Type

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 18:35

There are several other threads on here concerning national colours - Use "search" and have an enjoyable evening.

The national colours were still in the 1975 FIA yellow book (without Latvia, Lithuania etc). As it's the only year I have I can't say when the FIA dropped them. This gives the Canadian colours as

Body and Bonnet: Red
Wide lengthwise white stripe from front to rear
Numbers: Black on a white background.

This suggests they were changed when the flag changed in 1965 or possibly as early as when red and white were declared the national colours in 1921

The yearbook also says "The use of distinctive colours of nationality is compulsary when the supplementary regulations of the competition require it"

I have no idea whether either of these sets of Canadian colours were ever used.

Edited by D-Type, 18 August 2012 - 18:43.


#49 Repco22

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:10

There are several other threads on here concerning national colours - Use "search" and have an enjoyable evening.

The national colours were still in the 1975 FIA yellow book (without Latvia, Lithuania etc). As it's the only year I have I can't say when the FIA dropped them. This gives the Canadian colours as

Body and Bonnet: Red
Wide lengthwise white stripe from front to rear
Numbers: Black on a white background.

This suggests they were changed when the flag changed in 1965 or possibly as early as when red and white were declared the national colours in 1921

The yearbook also says "The use of distinctive colours of nationality is compulsary when the supplementary regulations of the competition require it"

I have no idea whether either of these sets of Canadian colours were ever used.

Duncan, I wonder what it says about Swiss national colours. I always thought they were red with first, a white bonnet and then, perhaps with a bit of 'interpretation' when stripes came into vogue, red with white stripe. Like Rudi Fischer's Ferrari. And btw, surely the 50s Maserati Dinky Toy was meant to be Swiss rather than Canadian. :well:

Edited by Repco22, 19 August 2012 - 05:11.


#50 Rob29

Rob29
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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:59

There are several other threads on here concerning national colours - Use "search" and have an enjoyable evening.

The national colours were still in the 1975 FIA yellow book (without Latvia, Lithuania etc). As it's the only year I have I can't say when the FIA dropped them. This gives the Canadian colours as

Body and Bonnet: Red
Wide lengthwise white stripe from front to rear
Numbers: Black on a white background.

This suggests they were changed when the flag changed in 1965 or possibly as early as when red and white were declared the national colours in 1921

The yearbook also says "The use of distinctive colours of nationality is compulsary when the supplementary regulations of the competition require it"

I have no idea whether either of these sets of Canadian colours were ever used.

Thanks,D Type-I have the 1992 FIA yearbook and can find no mention of colours therin :wave: Guess they had been abolished by then?
Swiss definitely red & white .I too remember the Maserati Dinky toy -had one when I was a kid-also a blue & yellow siamese-'Bira' Ferrari.
Better not say what I found on Margeax Hemingway-might offend someone-now think it was her sister I remember from the film'Star 80'