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Racing colours pre-war


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#51 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:27

... also a blue & yellow siamese-'Bira' Ferrari.

Not Bira, Rob - as you told us yourself a while ago:

Not sure if this thread refers to the Scuderia Ferrari team or the Ferrari production line?
If the former,apart from the belgians,they once ran a green car for Mike Hawthorn and a blue & yellow one for Gonzalez.Dinky Toys made a model of this-misinfo at the time was that this was the Thai colours for Bira!



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#52 RCH

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 22:46

Going back to the start of this thread we learn that Mercedes removed the white paint from their cars at the Eifelrennen in 1934 in order to pass below the 750Kg. limit. I was always led to believe that this actually happened at the French GP in 1934, more as a result of "inaccurate" French weighing equipment than anything else. However an earlier post shows this was untrue and since I have always doubted the story I suspect the reason was that at some stage they realised that weight saving from not having paint was worth having. The question of when and why Auto Union followed suit was asked but never answered but presumably they saw the advantage too.

Since the thread seems to have slipped away from pre war times can I move a little more OT and ask about Stirling Moss's car in the Aintree 200 of 1958? One of my most prized possessions is the Eagle Book of Cars & Motor Sport by Peter Roberts published in 1958 which I have owned from the age of 9 in 1958. In one chapter he describes a sort of "day at the races" about the Aintree meeting and describes Stirling's Cooper as black, although the programme says green, he concedes that it is actually very dark green. This would have have been Rob Walker's car so should have been blue with a white stripe on the nose but the photos show a very dark car with no stripe. Is this just a case of sloppy writing or was the car actually green? Did it have to run in green to satisfy the organisers?

Edited by RCH, 19 August 2012 - 22:49.


#53 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:36

Going back to the start of this thread we learn that Mercedes removed the white paint from their cars at the Eifelrennen in 1934 in order to pass below the 750Kg. limit.

Since that was posted we have had this thread:

Mercedes and paint-stripping

which has shown that the paint-stripping story is a myth.

#54 uechtel

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:35

I have no idea whether either of these sets of Canadian colours were ever used.


http://www.google.de...1ac.JPs6do0bkTk


#55 Dutchy

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:20

Not Bira, Rob - as you told us yourself a while ago:


Surely the Dinky Ferrari was painted to represent the Argentinian racing colours? Blue with a yellow nose.

#56 D-Type

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 14:35

Duncan, I wonder what it says about Swiss national colours. I always thought they were red with first, a white bonnet and then, perhaps with a bit of 'interpretation' when stripes came into vogue, red with white stripe. Like Rudi Fischer's Ferrari. And btw, surely the 50s Maserati Dinky Toy was meant to be Swiss rather than Canadian. :well:

Swiss colours:
Bonnet: White
Body and Underframe: Red
Numbers: Black

With Dinky Toys, I suspect the colours were just to make them look different from each other. They started with Red Alfa, Blue Talbot and BRG Cooper and invented the others. After all they later had a turquoise D-Type and white Mercedes W196.

#57 RVM

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 15:01

The 25 June 1914 issue of The Automobile provides this interesting tidbit in an article regarding the 1915 International 500 Mile Sweepstakes race:

 

Racing colors in the next Indianapolis 500-mile race, it is announced, will be uniform, according to the nation which a car represents. German machine will thus be white; French, blue; English, green; Belgian, yellow; Italian, red; and American, white and red. This move will do away the freakish individual color combinations which in the past have marred speedway racing, and at the same time give bolder relief to the international aspect of the sport. Credit for the idea is due E.C. Patterson, the wealthy Chicago sportsman.


#58 D-Type

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 21:03

Interesting ... 

When did the USA change to blue (chassis) and white?  I am 90% certain Jimmy Murphy's 1921 French GP Duesenberg had a blue chassis / white body combination and it may even have had blue numbers (Contemporary photos show the numbers in the same shade of grey as the chassis)



#59 ensign14

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 21:41

The Stutzes at Indy in 1915 were white with red trim, I wondered if that betrayed some international pretensions.

I have suspicions about Grand Prix colours though. In the original ACF races national colours were not de rigeur. Presumably to show the difference between a race between makes and the Gordon Bennett between countries. Perhaps national colours coincided with Grand Prix colours in the 1920s through practice rather than diktat.

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#60 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 22:00

I have suspicions about Grand Prix colours though. In the original ACF races national colours were not de rigeur. Presumably to show the difference between a race between makes and the Gordon Bennett between countries. Perhaps national colours coincided with Grand Prix colours in the 1920s through practice rather than diktat.

It depended entirely on individual organisers and whether they put it in the race regulations. Earl Howe only painted his cars green if the organising club insisted - otherwise he raced in blue. Whitney Straight's cars were usually black unless he was compelled to race in US colours ... etc ... etc ...



#61 D-Type

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 22:04

As the CSI was formed about then (1922 according to Wikipedia), could it be that [re-]introducing the national colours was simply a ploy to raise the profile of the fledgling organisation?  After all, this would have required them to contact the various national clubs to ask them what colours they wanted.

 

Incidentally photos of the Indianapolis Museum's replica car show it with red wheels so if that is accurate the car had all the US flag colours.



#62 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 22:53

National colours were reintroduced at the 1907 Grand Prix.

#63 Rob G

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:07

The 25 June 1914 issue of The Automobile provides this interesting tidbit in an article regarding the 1915 International 500 Mile Sweepstakes race:

 

Quote

Racing colors in the next Indianapolis 500-mile race, it is announced, will be uniform, according to the nation which a car represents. German machine will thus be white; French, blue; English, green; Belgian, yellow; Italian, red; and American, white and red. This move will do away the freakish individual color combinations which in the past have marred speedway racing, and at the same time give bolder relief to the international aspect of the sport. Credit for the idea is due E.C. Patterson, the wealthy Chicago sportsman.

If Mr. Patterson thought those paint schemes looked "freakish", he would be horrified at the paint schemes we've had the past few decades. Only four or five cars in the 1914 starting field were painted in something other than a solid color.

 

The Stutzes at Indy in 1915 were white with red trim, I wondered if that betrayed some international pretensions.

 

They were also white with red trim in 1913 and 1914, before the proposal was presented.



#64 D-Type

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:08

National colours were reintroduced at the 1907 Grand Prix.

I think that would have been the main red, blue, yellow etc - not the esoteric "Body and bonnet: lower part blue, upper part yellow (three cross bands of blue on the top of the bonnet" type of colour schemes.which I assume came in with the CSI.



#65 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:34

I think that would have been the main red, blue, yellow etc - not the esoteric "Body and bonnet: lower part blue, upper part yellow (three cross bands of blue on the top of the bonnet" type of colour schemes.which I assume came in with the CSI.

I wasn't aware of any national colour schemes of that nature.  Can you tell me more?



#66 D-Type

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:46

Sweden, according to my 1972 FIA Yellow Book.



#67 ensign14

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:41

National colours were reintroduced at the 1907 Grand Prix.

 

And then dropped again, surely?  In the years after Austin used red and Arrol-Johnston dark blue tartan.



#68 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:44

Sweden, according to my 1972 FIA Yellow Book.

Sorry, I thought you meant 1922!



#69 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:18

And then dropped again, surely?  In the years after Austin used red and Arrol-Johnston dark blue tartan.

Mathieson says that in 1912, when the A-Js ran, national colours were required.  THe A-Js were apparently allocated blue with Gordon tartan as Scottish entries! It was in this race that America's colours were changed from white and red to white and blue.

 

I don't know about the Austins (1908).  Is it certain they were red in the Grand Prix?



#70 Michael Müller

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 13:34

The use of national racing colors is overrated. First of all the rule applied only to international races, and secondly it was up to the organizer's discretion whether they applied the rule or not, as it had to be expressly stated in the regulations. Contenders who scheduled only national races painted their cars as they like, others took no chances and painted their cars in national colors even if seldomly required.



#71 M Needforspeed

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 14:17

Thought I would revive this thread-just rediscovered it looking for something else.I remember Margaux from some film many years ago-.On another thread someone mentioned Canadian racing colours-white with green stripe Did anyone ever use this? 

 

 

 

 I believe Eppie Wietzes  used the Canadian racing colors  for his Ford GT 40 

 

 

  incidentally,  I have seen in August Margaux Hemingway grave that is just on the same location as Ernest in the quiet  Ketchum ( Idaho) cemetery.  :(


Edited by M Needforspeed, 06 October 2013 - 14:18.