69 replies to this topic

[MarkWill]

Hi,

I was looking through some old (seventies) books and I came across Tom Pryce "The Flying Welshman". He appeared to be quite good, and I think he died in a freak accident. Does anyone have more information/pictures about his career? I heard that he had just been signed to drive for Lotus the following year after he died, and judging by his ability and bravery it looks like he would have been a world champion if he had lived long enough to make the move (He died in '77, and the Lotus 78 and 79 were the next cars on the Lotus drawing board).

Also, what happened to Shadow?

[Buford]

The link to his death video and that of a fireman has been posted here a couple times before. It is one of the goriest clips of all time. My recollection of him was he was a pretty good driver. I may be wrong but I think when the oil company UOP pulled out Shadow did not last long in either F1 or Can Am. Maybe a season or two longer.

[stevew]

I remember seeing a documentary in the early '80s called "The Quick and the Dead" which showed some footage of Pryce's accident (mostly showing the impact with the marshall). Pretty bad.

I could scan a photo from my 1977-78 AUTOCOURSE, but I don't want to get sued...

[MarkWill]

Thanks for the info to date. I haven`t seen the gruesome footage, but I did see a picture of Laffite looking across at his car as he overtook him on the straight. Apparently he was renowned for his car control - Motor Sport magazine used him to demonstrate understeer and oversteer using a Shadow. He looks a bit like Gilles Villeneuve, but without the craziness. Hard to imagine, but according to this book he drove to third place in the Monaco GP with a leaking fuel cell - his skin was dissolving as he drove. Any pictures or sites I might visit...? On a similar subject, (bu probably a new threda) the book claims that James Hunt was one of the fastest qualifiers of all time. Surely this can't be true?

[Barry Boor]

but I did see a picture of Laffite looking across at his car as he overtook him on the straight.

Given Markwill's comment, I think that makes this a slightly spooky photo, considering it was taken in 1976.

[Buford]

Yes "The Quick and the Dead showed the Marshall being shredded. The clip link posted here showed that plus also Pryce lying in the ground after they removed his body from the car in gruesome closeups.

Type his name into Google Mark and I'm sure you will find a lot of web material.

[Mohican]

I think that the Shadow marque deserves better than to be just dismissed so easily.

It is correct that UOP's withdrawal was Very Bad News - but still, they won the '77 Austrian GP with Alan Jones (beating a certain N. Lauda into 2nd place) and showed really well even after losing Pryce in what was surely the most horrific and absolutely unnecessary fatal accident ever.

It is ironic that Shadow lost two of their drivers at Kyalami - Peter Revson in '74 and then Tom Pryce. After a shaky start in '73, they came on in leaps and bounds and by early '75 had the legs of most of the opposition. in fact, Jean-Pierre Jarier should have won both the Argentinian and Brazilian GP that year, and had Shadow succeeded in signing Ronnie Peterson from Lotus after that (and they were very close, in which case Pryce would have been traded to Lotus when they were at their weakest; think about that) things would have been very different. One of the big ifs...

Actually, it was Jack Oliver who killed Shadow - by walking off with most of the management staff, one of the drivers (Patrese, who had made a star debut at Monaco in '77) and above all with the plans for the '78 Shadow which suddenly became the Arrows...
Shadow continued in '78 with Regazzoni and Stuck and into '79 with Lammers and de Angelis, but the spark was gone and the team folded after that.
However as you can see, they had a lot of good drivers - and many good enginneers as well (Southgate, Wass, etc) - but obviously too much politics as well. On top of that they were successful in the Can-Am as well, where they ran cars for many years.

Jack Oliver has a lot to answer for.

[AdrianM]

The thing I think sad is the fact that many people remember him only for his fatal accident and not that he was an incredible driver with great potential

[Rediscoveryx]

Yes, that's sad. It's really hard to find info on him though

[William Hunt]

Was the picture of Laffite overtaking Pryce takin' on Kyalami one year before the fatal accident ?

[byrkus]

Originally posted by AdrianM
The thing I think sad is the fact that many people remember him only for his fatal accident and not that he was an incredible driver with great potential

That's right, and there are many more with the same attitude. Piers Courage, Bruce McLaren, Jim Clark... I mean, ask ANY motorsport historian, what does he know about P. Courage, for instance. "He died at 1970 Dutch GP, driving a de Tomaso-Ford..." And nobody mentions his great drives, which led to 2 second places at 1969 Monaco and US GP (I may be wrong, I'm talking on memory here). About McLaren? "He founded the McLaren Racing team, and was killed in Goodwood..." Enough said.

In a few years time, Ayrton Senna would be remembered just as 'the guy, who lost his life in Imola'. Nothing more, I'm afraid.

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by William Hunt
Was the picture of Laffite overtaking Pryce takin' on Kyalami one year before the fatal accident ?

I think it's taken at Brands Hatch, definately not Kyalami

[Barry Boor]

Correct, Rediscoveryx, it's taken during the re-started British Grand Prix of 1976. I was standing on the inside of the circuit just before the bridge on the straight before Hawthorn's Bend.

[ensign14]

'Racers Apart' by David Tremayne has a wonderful chapter on Tom - redolent of the entire book, a super read.

Where's Maldwyn when you need him?

[William Hunt]

So U took that picture yourself Barry ! Nice one ! Do U have any others like this one ?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Correct, Rediscoveryx, it's taken during the re-started British Grand Prix of 1976. I was standing on the inside of the circuit just before the bridge on the straight before Hawthorn's Bend.

So this is why you said 'spooky'?

I think it's a great shame that this thread so quickly went to talk of Pryce's death too. It is certainly the most memorable thing about him, but because it was such a gruesome and wasteful happening... but I don't agree about McLaren or Clark.

Most do seem to remember them for their deeds rather than their deaths. Of course, their deaths weren't televised...

[Barry Boor]

Apologies to those who I have bored silly with it, but, William, you need to go to
http://members.atlasf1.com/barry_boor

There you will find some more pictures from that same race and some other stuff too.

[William Hunt]

Thanks Barry , I really LOVE those pictures, U're a great photographer. I would like to see your slotrace website as well.

[Zippity]

Barry,

Please post your slot car URL Don't worry - I found it!

Thanks

Zip

[William Hunt]

Hi Zippity ! I Welcome U to this lovely forum (hosted by Mr. Don Capps). It's always nice to see new members out here. I noticed you're all the way from New Zealand.

Are U a Chris Amon fan ?

Or do u like Bruce Mclaren (always smiling) , Denny Hulme (the 'bear') or Howden Ganley (underestimated driver) more ?

[Zippity]

William,

Would you believe, I actually raced slot cars with and against Amon, Hulme, McLaren, Hill and a whole lot of the other leading F1 drivers at the time, away back in the late '60's when slot car racing was as its peak

30+ years later and I am racing slot cars again!

Zip

[William Hunt]

Zippity, U lucky bastard !

BTW : I still don't know who your favourite Kiwi driver is.

PS : What time is it now in New Zealand ? It's 4 o' clock in the morning in my country now (Belgium). I really should catch some sleep.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Zippity
...I actually raced slot cars with and against Amon, Hulme, McLaren, Hill and a whole lot of the other leading F1 drivers at the time, away back in the late '60's when slot car racing was as its peak.

Never did this, but chatting to them at Tasman time was great, wasn't it?

You will, of course, put Keir at ease and read through the whole Amon thread... and post your memories once you've done so?

It's presently about 4:30pm in NZ, I think...

[Zippity]

William? Keir,

How can I possibly have a favourite?

I cried the day that I heard that Bruce had been killed, and again the day when I saw on TV, Denny's 'accident' at Bathhurst.

I 'loved' them both. Not so much for F1, but for their deeds and exploits in CanAm, which I still consider to be the best form of motor racing ever developed.

Ray, I haven't read the Amon thread yet, but will do so when I can find it

Yes, it is summer and DST here - 4.50pm

Zip (Ron)

[Ray Bell]

As soon as you find it?

Just scroll down the page till you find the thread with 1633 posts!

"Famous Amon Stories" it is, started by (and kept alive by...) Keir... an American with a desire to preserve the memory of Chris Amon forever...

I think you'll find some interesting stories and a pile of great sidelights on the thread... I confess to having added just a few...

Keir, of course, has more up his sleeve, but keeps them for when things are quiet.

[MarkWill]

Still not much luck on with info. on Mr. Pryce, although I have been shown a couple of articles from Motor Sport where he demonstrates car control (what is oversteer/understeer etc.) and he lends his car to a journalist. As you said, most articles have a common thread - his death - which is a shame.

The Shadow team also gave a drive to Gilles Villeneuve in the CanAm series, but I read that the car was a heap of junk. In general, the Shadows seem to have been pretty good cars, using the standard DFV/Hewland box package. I read about the Arrows teams debut as well, and it certainly lookde as though it had quite a promising future in the beginning. A friend of mine tells me that they had a car which ahd an inclined engine. This seems really wierd to me because surely it would raise the CG, as well as messing with the transmission and the way the torque is reacted?? Don't know which car it was, but it brings me to another point, which is thathe mid to late seventies were for me the BEST times of F1. Cars were still largely powered by the same drivetrain, and there were so many really fast, great drivers. It looks as though Tom Pryce would have been one of them, but photos and biography seem to be very scarce , so I expect tha he will only be remembered as the '77 SAGP casualty.

By the way, I collect/race slot cars as well, but here in Canada there aren't too many vintage cars for sale locally. It was the rediscovery of the Scalextric Shadows tha got me interested in their drivers, and hence this thread. I am the proud owner of one of the rarer James Bond Scalextric sets - the jewel in my collection. I wish I could get a hold of more cars from the seventies, but in general slotcar manufacturers didn't make many models.

If there's more photo's/film links etc., I would STILL be grateful (Keep looking). My favourite picture so far is a Mach (751? - red) with and old Ford Cortina behind it. Excellent.

[Rob Ryder]

You can see a couple of my photos of Tom at the following link...

http://homepage.ntlw...adow/shadow.htm

Rob

[Mohican]

Mark,

the Arrows with the inclined DFV was the 1979 Arrows A2, sponsored by Warsteiner and driven by Riccardo Patrese and Jochen Mass.
There is quite a good write-up, with photographs, on it in one of the recent issues of "F1 Racing".

The A2 took the ground effect theme to extremes with all-enveloping bodywork, etc - so much so that the chassis stiffness could not cope with the aerodynamic loads and the car was a total failure results wise. A bit like the Lotus 80 the same year.

The Can-Am Shadows were no good in the begining but dominated the series utterly in their final years, although admittedly after the works McLarens and Porsches had been withdrawn. Great looking machines, though.

[Rediscoveryx]

MarkWill:

I would be very interested in knowing what issue of Motorsport Pryce demonstrated oversteer and understeer.

[MarkWill]

HI,

Sorry for the delay in getting back. I can only find one of the Motor Sports articles (!!!!!). I know I`ve put the other one down somehwhere, but of course its NVER where you think it is, or was last. Anyway, the journalist driving article is on Vol LI, no12, December 1975. The journalist was A.h. . At the begining they talk about new F1 cars, such as the Alfa Romeo powered Brabham BT45 (the flat 12 put out 500 b.h.p. according to MS), and the fact that transverse gearboxes were here to stay in F1 Ferraris. I just discovered that Ligier cars were titled JS - XX after Jo Schlesser - another discovery. Triumph had won the RAC touring Car Drivers championship with a Dolomite (wow!) and an immaculate mk 1 e-type could be yours for offers around GBP 1,500. Hmmm....

I'll keep looking for the other article, which I think was a 1976 article (ther are only twelve, so if you have them all, you could check)

BBFN

[LittleChris]

The journalist A.H would be Alan Henry who was very close to both Tom Pryce & Ronnie Peterson ( He wrote both the UK available books on SuperSwede ).

[MarkWill]

Thanks for decoding the initials - I was wondering. I wish I could get my hands on more old copies of these magazines - they were full of anectodes and information. I have just a picture from the front cover of one of the magazines (I cut it out to stick on the wall of my bedroom when I was young) and its an amazing picture of a Brabham BT46 (one of my favourite cars) driven by John Watson, leading a tyrell (007 - Patrick Depailler) who is just ahead of Nicki Lauda! What a shot!! I think its taken form the Monaco GP of 1978, but I'm not too sure. I remember when Nicki Lauda won the sports personality of the year in Britain in 1977, and they wheeled out the Bt46 with the NASA-developed sidewall heat-exchangers. Nicki admitted at the time (pre-season) that "they don't work too well at the moment" (what a quote! I can only think of JV and EI who are as candid today). The car was always compromised by the need to package the alternative cooling system around which the car hadn't been designed, but it was such a beauty in my eyes that even the afterthought radiators didn't spoil its looks. It was the fastest of the non-wing cars, but by then of course, Lotus was redefining car design.

Of course, if Tom Pryce had been driving the Lotus 79, I wonder if he would have been as good as Andretti was. My guess is that he would have been at least as good, because from what I've read about the Lotus it came quite a handful to drive by the end of a race, and required superior car-control skills to keep it on the road.

TP came from a very modest background. It appears that his father was a policeman in North Wales (I wonder how he dealt with his son's driving?). There is a place called the horseshoe pass near Ruthin where he lived, where the police apparently used to chase would-be speeders (I used to live near there, and my father says that it was a well-known accident spot), in the hope that they would lose control on the twisty road and be easier to catch. I presume that TP was not one that they could catch easily. I heard a similar story about Gilles Villeneuve, so perhaps this is a F1 urban legend.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by MarkWill


TP came from a very modest background. It appears that his father was a policeman in North Wales (I wonder how he dealt with his son's driving?). There is a place called the horseshoe pass near Ruthin where he lived, where the police apparently used to chase would-be speeders (I used to live near there, and my father says that it was a well-known accident spot), in the hope that they would lose control on the twisty road and be easier to catch. I presume that TP was not one that they could catch easily. I heard a similar story about Gilles Villeneuve, so perhaps this is a F1 urban legend.

I ride my motorbike up there whenever I get the opportunity. It's a great road and the Ponderosa cafe at the top of the pass is a favourite meeting place for bikers.

Being pedantic, the Motor Sport picture you referred to showed Depailler in a 008 Tyrell. The 1978 Monaco Grand Prix may have been Niki Lauda's best. Denis Jenkinson said:

The drive by Niki Lauda in the 38th Monaco Grand PRix will go down in the history books of Monte Carlo whether he likes it or not. It was a classic performance of "tiger" by the rather sour and embittered Austrian, ranking with that of Fangio in 1956 and Rindt in 1970. Lauda has no interest in motor racing history or anthing from the past, if some of his interviews are to be believed, but to those of us who enjoy the continuity of motor racing and respect and admire the efforts of those drivers who have gone before, Lauda's 1978 performance will not be forgotten. In years to come we'll look back on it with pleasure, even if he only looks back on it as money well earned.

[William Hunt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkWill
[B] Of course, if Tom Pryce had been driving the Lotus 79, I wonder if he would have been as good as Andretti was. ...(quote)

How come Tom¨Pryce drove the Lotus ? Has anyone got a picture of Tom in the Lotus ? Was Lotus interested in signing him ?

[MarkWill]

Apparently yes, Tom Pryce was supposed to be driving for Lotus in the `78 season (and presumably the `79 season as well) - this information is unverified, and is definitely "friend of a friend, who knows this guy, can't say who, but...." kind of info. If anyone knows more (I would guess that it would be someone who knows about Lotus, or maybe A.H.?) I am really curious to confirm....

Sorry for getting the picture stats wrong, but I tried to explain that I only had the picture (I didn`t have the rest of the magazine - it wouldn't have looked good on my wall). I really appreciate getting the info correct, and now I'm off to read up on it (especially if the race was one of Lauda's best). The Tyrell was a nice-looking car as well, and as you said, it was the 008 with the canard wings, not the 007. I'm sure this has been discussed before (and I can see there's a thread for "good idea - bad execution", but this one seems to have worked) - why was there a a canard wing, and why wasn't it adopted by other teams? My guess is that it was tough to get it working efficiently, which made setup a bit unpredictable on some circuits. Still looking for the "Tom Pryce overterr/understeer" article. Its one of life's true mysteries, like the missing sock when you you your washing.

[prettyface]

This thread is appreciated. There's very little information on net, I didn't know anything about Pryce, outside of that accident.
A picture and some stats here:
http://www.f1db.com/.../driverID/10710

[Brian Lear]

MarkWill

A three page article titled "Looking back on.... Tom Pryce" by the aforementioned AH
appears in the March 1987 Motor Sport.
I am in Oz - if you have trouble locating a copy locally PM me and I will mail you a copy
of the story.

Regards
Brian Lear

[mike_w]

Thinking about it, it won't be long until the 25th anniversary of Tom's death. Maybe one of the mags will run a retrospective?

[fines]

Tom Pryce was targeted by Lotus in early 1975 in a swap with Ronnie Peterson, who was being disappointed with Lotus performance and courted by Don Nichols.

[MarkWill]

That sounds like a strange swap. Ronnie Peterson was already an etablished name at Lotus by that time, surely??? And although I can see Tom Pryce as having a possibly similar driving style to RP, I cant see what advantage Lotus would have perceived from taking on TP in 1975, when TP was still largely unproven. Where did the information come from, by the way? It gives a bit of credence to the "friend of a friend etc." I was referring to earlier.

I looked for Shadow in Google and found a restored Tom Pryce/J.P. Jarier Shadow DN5A/B for sale here in Canada (not that I want to buy it). There are some intersting pics - its shown on some guys driveway, which is a bit wierd, but it gives you an idea of how large (small) the car was.

Was J.P. Jarier the #1 driver at Shadow?

[dmj]

Last night "Bobby Deerfield" was shown on Croatian TV and it seems that, of all 1976 drivers, Pryce has most footage in it (not too much, as F1 action is pretty scarce in movie, but parts with static cars show his car more than anyone else).

[Mohican]

For Markwill:

I think you misread the relative status between Lotus and Shadow in early '75.

The Lotus 76 was a failure in '74 and the team then had to revert to running the, by then 5 years old, Lotus 72 in '74 (when Ickx won the non-championship "Race of Champions" at Brands Hatch, and Peterson won Monaco, France and Italy through sheer brilliance). For 1975 however, Lotus still had no replacement for the 72 which was now completely out-classed - and Peterson decided very early in the season that he wanted to switch to UOP Shadow. It must be remembered that Jarier had put the new Shadow DN5 on pole in both Argentina and Brazil by considerable margins, and Shadow were at the time at least as well funded as Lotus.

The shadow team was all for it, and proposed trading Pryce to Lotus in return for Peterson - which would have turned Jarier into Shadow's no. 2 driver. JPJ was hired by Shadow as no. 2 to Peter Revson for 1974, and became no. 1 following Revson's death at Kyalami that year. Pryce then came into the team later in the '74 season, and turned into a real star only in 1976 - ironically after Shadow had lost theire UOP sponsorship.

Still regret Peterson's not being able to join Shadow that year (in the end Chapman would not release him, realising that he was the only asset Lotus had going into 1975) - am convinced that he would have taken on Lauda for the championship.

[josh.lintz]

I remember in Grand Prix! Vol.3, there was mention of a picture of Tom Pryce testing the Lotus.

Anyone here have a copy of it?

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by dmj
Last night "Bobby Deerfield" was shown on Croatian TV and it seems that, of all 1976 drivers, Pryce has most footage in it (not too much, as F1 action is pretty scarce in movie, but parts with static cars show his car more than anyone else).

Yeah that film is cool... it was on channel 5 here over xmas, I loved it! so 70s and cool. Do you know they used formmula renault martinis for the crash scenes, painted in martini colours. It was great to see Pryces car so much as well, a truly great driver.

[MaTT2799]

I felt compelled to write about this topic.

Had Tom Pryce been alive today he would have been almost related to me. His wife Nellas mother is related to my Aunt, so I kind of keep Tom as almost family, or as close as I can get.

I have seen the footage of his accident at Kyalami. It is, without doubt, one of the worst and most horrific accidents I have ever seen. The sad thing was, the poor marshall was only trying to do his best. The lad was only 18, and he was so keen to do his best, and to put out the fire on Zorzis car. Although the accident does lie with him, I find it sad people call him stupid, or such like comments.

Just so people can know without having to see the video links that have been posted here numerously, Tom suffered terrible, terrible facial injuries. From what I have been lead to understand, it was an open fracture of the left side temple. The video I have watched on television is probably the same as the videos which have been linked from here, and be wanred, they show Toms head after the crash. I wouldnt really recommend anyone to watch it, I watched it once, and that was the only time I shall.

I would however try to urge you not to remember Tom from this video, no matter how hard it is. Tom Maldwyn Price was a magnificent driver, who could control a car on the zenith of traction. His loyalty to Shadow was, though career hindering, touching and showed what a genuine character he was.

I never met Tom Pryce. He died 5 years before my birth. But I am proud that my family has links with him, and I regard him, in all honesty, as the greatest F1 talent that wasnt allowed to blossom. Rest In Peace Tom.

[MarkWill]

Wow!

Thank you for adding the personnal touch to this thread. For all those who have added something to this thread, I want to say that to date I haven't seen the video footage of Tom`s (Maldwyn`s) death, and I don`t really feel the need to see "the end". Its a bit like those nostalgia buffs who find it hard to dwell on the end of the Beatles, but instead spend their time trying to maximise their knowledge of what happened in between the start and the finish, because for them I think that the most important thing was the ride, not how it all worked out.

Eighteen years is a young age to die, and its true that at that age its much fairer to attribute things to impetuousness and lack of experience than anything else.

In support of all contributors to this thread, I would like to point out that there has not been much dwelling on the circumstances of Tom Pryce's death, and instead I have learned that he was a really promising driver. I don't suppose that there are any films of GP out there with him in them (beyond those already mentioned)? I am currently working on an improved version of the scalextric car. Its a bit ambitious, because I'm calling in favours in my industry to try and make the chassis from carbon fibre (for the techincally minded I'm using leftover of a Hexcell pre-preg tri-ax fibre which is used to make one of the antennae on the Space Station. My biggest problem is that I don't have any really good plans to work from - I'm scaling drawings, which isn't so bad, except that the engine area seems to be impossible to do. There's a new CadKey module which apparently allows you to take photos and drawings and develop them into models, and if I get more info, or my hands on the module I'll give it a try. The other problem is that people doing favours think that you have to accept anything they produce, which to date has been a bit of a disaster. I tried the same thing using a titanium chassis to make a car - a TR4 - with similar results. Oh well, it pases the time away, I suppose).

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by MaTT2799
... in all honesty, as the greatest F1 talent that wasnt allowed to blossom. Rest In Peace Tom.

Thanks for your contribution to this topic Matt. Although I don't disagree with U, there are a lot of other drivers that qualify in the greatest "talent not allowed to blossom category".

What about drivers like Stefan Bellof , Tony Brise or Gonzalo Rodriguez ? They are at least as good as Tom Pryce was.

[MarkWill]

Getting back to Tom Pryce, his father is now retired from the police force. I think he still lives in Ruthin. Does anyone know what else Tom raced? To qualify for "greatest unrealized talent" in my book he would have had to have been good in other cars as well. How did he end up in F1 - via FF and F2?

For me, the greatest talent (but in this case it was realized) was that of Jim Clark. Without seeing Tom Pryce's driving style its hard to say how good his car control was, but I'm sure that it was up there in the Gilles Villeneuve league, based on what I've read (he really seemed to squeeze the most out of a car).

[MaTT2799]

William, of course, you are correct. I am, as maybe is inevitable, a little biased towards Tom. Other such drivers, like Roger Williamson, also fullfill this catagory. I am, however, a little unsure of Bellof, I think he was an unparallelled talent in Sports Cars, and a mighty mighty good F1 driver. But, I think he may have turned out to be in the Berger at his peak class, fast, but not quite as quick as the best.

[CSGPR]

Hi

I looked for Shadow in Google and found a restored Tom Pryce/J.P. Jarier Shadow DN5A/B for sale here in Canada (not that I want to buy it). There are some intersting pics - its shown on some guys driveway, which is a bit wierd, but it gives you an idea of how large (small) the car was.

Was J.P. Jarier the #1 driver at Shadow?

MarkWill could you please supply us with the link regarding the sale of the DN5

best regards

Christian