78 replies to this topic

[GMiranda]

There was an instance in rallying on the Tour de Corse, when both the works Triumph TR8s were tampered with in parc ferme before the start. IIRC someone had taken out the sump drain plugs. I can't remember if they were able to start (presumably there would have been oil everywhere). It was never expalined who might have done it.

Slightly OT, ther ewas the case on the Paris-Dakar when soemone stole the leading car, the Peugeot 405T16 of Ari Vatanen, during the overnight halt in Timbuktu or Ougadougou. They were caught driving it out of the city. How anyone could have thought that they could slip away in such a visible car is not recorded...

 

Triumph's case was the 1979 Tour de Corse; and it involved a discussion between Jean-Luc Thérier and Jean-Marie Balestre after Thérier won the 1000 Pistes.... as he was disappointed with Balestre's quotes on French drivers, he went to Corsica with a British license, and he was always convinced it was someone with FISA links that went into the parc fermé and sabotaged the gearbox of both TR7's

[Lee Nicolle]

With cars being stolen, the Alan Moffat XY HO was stolen from a major Adelaide Ford dealer. It was found largely undamaged the following day after Alan had borrowed Murray Carters HO.

 

Alan and team sabotaged themselves a few years later when the Acco transporter caught fire and destroyed both truck an race car. His XA/XB Coupe.

 

Sedan Teams racing at Rowley Pk speedway in the mid 70s had it share of vandalism, cars that had electrics vandalised and one competitor who discovered water in his fuel tank! He still blames his brother [fellow competitor] to this day.

Luckily he won the feature that night, from memory the night that US visitor Gene Welch was unceremoniously rolled over on the way.

In the 70s Sedan were very big even with a myriad of different rules in different states.

[Dick Dastardly]

We've had it done to us on 2 separate occasions on European Historic rallies

 

2001...the week of 9/11, I and co-dvr Colin were on the Classic Marathon in a Cooper S...1st overnight halt at Luxembourg....next morning, we found that the sump plug had been removed.....friends of ours competing in another Mini, later in the week found their timing had been altered to such an extent, the car would hardly go. Someone obviously had it in for Minis.. .

 

2012...the Classic Marathon again, this time in Ireland, I was a travelling marshal whilst Dad & Chris were in the same mini as I'd used in 2001.....on the last day whilst observing on a test, I noticed they weren't as "on it" as I'd expected and commented on this to them....reply was they were still trying...as it was the last day of a 6-day rally, I assumed tiredness etc was playing a part [Dad was almost 83], so thought nothing of it.  Got the car home afterwards [by trailer] and about a week later, opened the bonnet....shock horror....air filters had been removed and placed in such a position they couldn't fall off, clutch master cylinder almost empty and, in their efforts to do more damage, the saboteur(s) had nicked the brake pipe leading from the master cylinder

Imagine what would have happened if the brakes had failed whilst on a road section and there'd been an RTA with fatalities.....police would have inspected the car, found the sabotage and the saboteurs(s) if found, could possibly have faced manslaughter, even murder, charges.....We realised the act had been done whilst parked in hotel car park the penultimate night, by the time we'd discovered the sabotage, it was too late to get the hotel to check its CCTV camera footage...

We do have our suspicions as to who actually did it but cannot prove or say anything.... 

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 23 February 2016 - 09:49.

[werks prototype]

We do have our suspicions as to who actually did it but cannot prove or say anything.... 

 

The Gruesome Twosome in the Creepy Coupe #2?

 

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist)

[Glengavel]

Don't know if it counts as sabotage but a disadvantaged and disgruntled AJ Foyt retired from the first heat of the Questor Grand Prix complaining about his car's handling. Come the second heat and he lasted all of one lap before his engine mysteriously went bang...

[Graham Clayton]

All three factory Lancia Fulvias retired early into the 1970 San Remo Rally with fuel feed problems - just a coincidence, or something more sinister?

http://www.ewrc-resu...ly-dItalia-1970

[Graham Clayton]

If I remember the year correctly, there was an instance of sabotage the night before the running of the Grand National race at Talladega, in the summer of 1974. I can't remember exactly how many cars were damaged, I think it was close to two dozen. Crews came into the garage the morning of the race and found slashed tires and fuel and oil systems fouled.

The New York Times report of the race and sabotage:

https://www.nytimes....-quits-the.html

[kyle936]

Not motorsport but related (kinda sorta)...

 

The women's Trek-Segafredo (Segafredo - Italian coffee machine manufacturer - motorsport - Toleman - Senna - connection noted, albeit with - Trek - *unfortunate* Lance connection...) pro cycling team woke up on the morning of Strade Bianche last year to the awful reality that their team van had had its roof cut open and all their bikes stolen...

 

...except for Elisa Longo Borghini's, Elisa being Italian (but of course...).

 

Only in Italy.

 

https://cyclingtips....strade-bianche/

[Myhinpaa]

Triumph's case was the 1979 Tour de Corse; and it involved a discussion between Jean-Luc Thérier and Jean-Marie Balestre after Thérier won the 1000 Pistes.... as he was disappointed with Balestre's quotes on French drivers, he went to Corsica with a British license, and he was always convinced it was someone with FISA links that went into the parc fermé and sabotaged the gearbox of both TR7's

 

It was 1978 in fact, and it was the gearbox drainplugs that had been loosened, on both cars. Pond retired on SS1 and Theriér on SS2.

This is Pond's car just before the gearbox seizes (@ 1:49) and Theriér at the same place (@ 2:29), note fumes from burning gearbox oil from both cars.

[Myhinpaa]

All three factory Lancia Fulvias retired early into the 1970 San Remo Rally with fuel feed problems - just a coincidence, or something more sinister?

http://www.ewrc-resu...ly-dItalia-1970

 

They seem to have retired even before getting over the start line!? There was indeed found some rubbery granules in all three cars fuel systems.

In Ballestrieri's case (car no.18) the plastic bag in which the saboteurs had kept the granules were found in the fuel filler pipe,

allegedly a photo exists of him pulling this out through the fuel filler. I've not been able to find this.

[Michael Ferner]

Does Lewis Hamilton sabotaging Max Verstappen's 2021 British GP count?

 

[ducks for cover]

[Charlieman]

The New York Times report of the race and sabotage:

https://www.nytimes....-quits-the.html

The report includes how much prize money was awarded. Does anyone know whether the cash was significant in terms of running a NASCAR outfit?

[ensign14]

The New York Times report of the race and sabotage:

https://www.nytimes....-quits-the.html

As an aside, look at the priority.

 

NASCAR: full article.

Can-Am: half-article.

Formula 2: paragraph.

Champcar: below Formula 2.

[Doug Nye]

Does Lewis Hamilton sabotaging Max Verstappen's 2021 British GP count?

 

[ducks for cover]

 

While I have considerable regard for both drivers involved in yesterday's incident the screaming, yelling, ticking and clucking amongst the partisan supporters of them both, the media and the fanboy 11-year-olds makes one wonder how 'they' might react if transported back in time to witness other celebratedly 'dirty' driving.

 

Names such as von Brauchitsch, Farina, Fagioli, Ed Elisian, maybe Carlos Menditeguy, Jack Brabham, Schumacher (M), Tony Stewart and several more spring immediately to mind. While this may not strictly qualify under the heading 'Sabotage' might it form the basis of an interesting, and possibly controversial, separate thread?

 

Incidentally - during his overall career thus far, Hamilton L. has generally proved to be a notably clean driver...

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 July 2021 - 10:17.

[ensign14]

Was Elisian actually a dirty driver though?  Or was that a Scalzo thing?  E.g. Dorie Sweikert blamed Elisian for her husband's death but footage easily disproves that.  And Elisian was the one who tried to help Vukovich in 1955, despite there being other drivers caught up in the crash itself.  It does seem true that he hung out with something of a hardcore crowd, but that's a different point.

 

Am intrigued re Fagioli and Menditeguy though.  What is the story there?

 

(Back on thread: fuel tests at Monza in 1976...) 

[Collombin]

Was Elisian actually a dirty driver though? Or was that a Scalzo thing?

That's Jim Thurman's Monday morning sorted.

[Jim Thurman]

That's Jim Thurman's Monday morning sorted.

 

     Here, no. Here at TNF a single, brief post can take care of it, instead of it being like that other forum that is more akin to Python's "The Argument Clinic." A place where any attempt at correcting historical record is met with serious pushback, no matter how overwhelming supportive evidence is.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 19 July 2021 - 17:13.

[ensign14]

No it isn't.

[Jim Thurman]

Was Elisian actually a dirty driver though?  Or was that a Scalzo thing?  E.g. Dorie Sweikert blamed Elisian for her husband's death but footage easily disproves that.  And Elisian was the one who tried to help Vukovich in 1955, despite there being other drivers caught up in the crash itself.  It does seem true that he hung out with something of a hardcore crowd, but that's a different point.

 

There is no evidence Elisian was a dirty driver.  Since there were some negative writings about him in contemporary newspapers post-'58 opening lap accident, I can't lay the whole thing at Scalzo's feet, but he embellished it and exaggerated it to epic proportion and that seems to be the page everyone has copied off of since. It truly seems as if Duane Carter, then USAC competition director, is the one person who had an issue with Elisian. Dorie Sweikert did spend years blaming Elisian, but later recanted and said that Bob overdrove and caused his own accident.

 

I spoke with a driver who raced alongside Elisian in his early years. He told me he never had any problem racing wheel-to-wheel with Elisian, as he knew he Elisian "wouldn't do anything stupid." He added that was quite unlike another driver who got to Indianapolis, who he described as utterly unpredictable. Bizarrely, Scalzo made a later attempt at softening his repeated assessments of Elisian by stating he believed Elisian to have been "bi-polar."    What makes this even more bizarre is from all sources, tales and accounts I've heard about the "unpredictable" driver mentioned above, he was the one who truly was "bi-polar", at best, if not borderline psychopathic.

 

And, yes, Elisian hung out with some rough folks and ran up significant gambling debts. The same driver I spoke with added: "I had no problem on track with Ed. Now, I wouldn't have wanted to hang out with him away from the track." Elisian wasn't the only of his contemporaries to have gambling problems. One of his peers was also suspended by USAC over gambling, but he is still hailed as a racing hero by the same folks who still write scathing diatribes about Elisian.

[Jim Thurman]

While I have considerable regard for both drivers involved in yesterday's incident the screaming, yelling, ticking and clucking amongst the partisan supporters of them both, the media and the fanboy 11-year-olds makes one wonder how 'they' might react if transported back in time to witness other celebratedly 'dirty' driving.

 

Names such as von Brauchitsch, Farina, Fagioli, Ed Elisian, maybe Carlos Menditeguy, Jack Brabham, Schumacher (M), Tony Stewart and several more spring immediately to mind. While this may not strictly qualify under the heading 'Sabotage' might it form the basis of an interesting, and possibly controversial, separate thread?

 

Again, not to pull this too OT, but I don't even know that Tony Stewart could be called a "dirty" driver. Dangerous? Yes. Poor sport?, absolutely! When the red mist descends on Stewart, it's often more of a red monsoon.

 

I'd suggest adding Rich Vogler as a "dirty" driver.

 

Now, back to the regularly scheduled topic, though this is a good discussion for another thread.

[ReWind]

Does Lewis Hamilton sabotaging Max Verstappen's 2021 British GP count?

 

[ducks for cover]

Michael Ferner must have been sabotaged.

The real Michael Ferner claims he doesn't know (and care) a bit about contemporary GP racing. So he wouldn't know Lewis Hamilton from Max Verstappen, would he?

[Michael Ferner]

My account was hacked!!

 

 

  No, but since about a year or so, I do follow the current stuff a bit on another forum (not here on RC, too toxic), saw the comments there and decided to have a look-see to form an opinion. What I saw was a clear "Senna moment", I'm sorry to say. If a rookie did that, okay you'd slap a ten second penalty on him and hope he'll learn, and if not you can still come down hard on him in the future. But a multiple world champion, after what, fifteen years of F1, and fighting the points leader for the race lead? The FIA will never learn...

[ensign14]

It really wasn't a Senna Moment.  It was more a Prost 1989 moment in that he finally got fed up of being pushed around by Senna.  Three corners before Verstappen nearly had Hamilton off in similar circumstances; at the very first turn Verstappen went off track and came back on illegally; at Imola, Verstappen had Hamilton off for trying to overtake him; Verstappen has had runs-in with Raikkonen, Kekinho ("having him around increases the chance of retirement ten-fold"), Leclerc, Ricciardo (repeatedly), Vettel...even Stroll...

[Michael Ferner]

Fair enough, I only saw those twenty seconds. Goes to show, though, how driving standards have slipped over the decades.

[BRG]

Can we leave last Sunday's events to the RCF?  I have no nostalgic feelings about a race held less than a week ago.

[Michael Ferner]

Wait, wait... not now! Things are getting really out of hand, AS MAX UNFOLLOWS LEWIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now THAT has to have consequences!!!!

[Collombin]

Unfollowing must mean overtaking, right?

[nmansellfan]

Same as the Merc. engineer told their drivers over the radio to 'invert the cars' last Sunday, i.e. for Lewis to overtake Valteri for position.  'Invert' is not a word I would use to describe overtaking!

[Michael Ferner]

It's refreshing to note that TNFers are not really up to date on the lingo - "to unfollow", I gather, means that Verstappen has cancelled his subscription to Hamilton's social media feeds which, in today's world, apparently constitutes the ultimate affront. Next would be pistols at ten paces.