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Most unsuitable saloon racing cars


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#451 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:34

Originally posted by kayemod
As well as the extra carb, the MG 1100 used a new design of cylinder head, the result of BMC's collaboration with Daniel Richmond of Downton Engineering. This new head had more open combustion chambers than the earlier design, and boosted power to a heady 55bhp. A short stroke 998cc version of this engine went into the Mini Cooper in 1964. It's easy to laugh at that 55bhp figure, but as a road car the little MG felt quite quick in its day. To show how things progress, the very first Golf GTi had exactly double that power, I bought a Mk1 in 81, and it felt like an absolute rocket. A friend recently lent me his small Postman Pat Citroën van for a day. That had the same 110bhp as my fondly remembered Golf, but probably largely because of extra weight, it didn't feel particularly pokey at all.


Exactly, cars were so much lighter in the sixties...

Interesting stuff about the head that I never knew.

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#452 Frank de Jong

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:16

Unfortunately Franks records only go back to 1963 by which time the MG 1100 was trounced by 4 Mini Cooper S models running with 1071 cc motors.

Thanks to every one for their memories of the 1962 race :up:


If you look at the top-right corner, you'll see a sort of primitive navigation block; on top, the previous race in the series, down the next race (in this case ETCC races); left and right last years' race and next years' race - in case they existed at all and I didn't forget to add the link. Fortunately, in this case it is all right.

#453 arttidesco

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:24

Not if you know where to look! Try British non-championship races or something similar. They were of course trounced by 997 Coopers in '62. Aley/Hulme were third overall.

Edited to add there is a link in the top right of the page you linked.


Thanks RCH :up: :-)

#454 RS2000

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:54

[quote name='CoulthardD' date='Oct 28 2012, 12:19' post='5993278']
An 1100 retired from the 1962 RAC with a broken piston, driven by David Seigle-Morris.

and the Rev. Rupert Jones.
A couple of MG1100s were entered on the 63 RAC, together with a Morris 1100 (which seems to have been in Group 2, not Group 3, so would have been single carb). Same class as 1071 Ss - but not everyone was there to win classes or had a choice of car.

I understand the "12G295" head (MG 1100 and 998 Cooper) is now a sought after item in Mini circles.

#455 nicanary

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:43

The Rev Rupert Jones brings back memories. Do members of the clergy still race/rally? I can only remember that non-conformist guy from The Americas - Pastor Maldonado.

#456 275 GTB-4

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:49

I understand the "12G295" head (MG 1100 and 998 Cooper) is now a sought after item in Mini circles.


Tis! but excellent results can also be achieved with other A Series heads... :)

#457 David McKinney

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:57

The Rev Rupert Jones brings back memories. Do members of the clergy still race/rally? I can only remember that non-conformist guy from The Americas - Pastor Maldonado.

Don't know about the present, but a Methodist minister used to race in NZ - in such exotica as an A50 with MGA Twincam engine, IIRC

And a fully kitted-out Anglican vicar was a regular fixture in NZ paddocks in the '60s, attending to the cars of his son Peter Hughes

#458 GMACKIE

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 00:09

And across the 'ditch'....Rev. Brian Johnson, known as the "Revvin' Reverend", or the "Faster Pastor".

#459 MattFoster

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:58

I vaguely remember a Datsun 240K running in the Hardie Ferodo 1000 one year, maybe '74? Nice looking motor but the image it had in Oz was of a poseur car.

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#460 Geoff E

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:01

The Rev Rupert Jones brings back memories. Do members of the clergy still race/rally?


Rev Simon Butler



#461 BRG

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:54

I should imagine the P4 was rallied in period - the P5 definitely was. I find photos and reports of Antipodean racing in the 50s/early 60s good fun - spot the unusual (to Brit eyes) entry. Minx, Hawk, and even pre-war Yank metal. Little wonder the organisers at the Revival seek the obscure and unique, even if it's not exactly "period" - variety is the spice of keeping the public happy.

(Not that I agree with it.........)

I recall seeing a Rover 105E coupe (probably a V8 automatic) being rallied in the early 1970s. It came through the Bricksbury stage (a notoriously rough piece of Army land near Aldershot) on a local stage rally. I was suitably gobsmacked, although it seemed to be making a reasonably good job - probably squashing some of the bumps for the rest of the field.

This would have been in the days when Sir Peter Graham-Moon was dominating local rallying in the Hampshire area in his Porsche. He later became 'famous' due to an acrimonious divorce, which had featured his wife cutting off all the sleeves of his wardrobe of Savile Row suits.

Edited by BRG, 29 October 2012 - 12:54.


#462 kayemod

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:12

This would have been in the days when Sir Peter Graham-Moon was dominating local rallying in the Hampshire area in his Porsche. He later became 'famous' due to an acrimonious divorce, which had featured his wife cutting off all the sleeves of his wardrobe of Savile Row suits.


She didn't stop there, she also distributed the contents of his wine cellar around the village they lived in. People opened the door to take in their usual semi-skimmed, and found that someone had also left a couple of bottles of Chateau Lafleur 1984 for them, very acceptable at around £2000 a bottle. "Hell hath no fury etc..."

#463 BRG

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:22

In the best tradition of the lady of the manor, distributing food stuffs to the poor and needy of the parish!

#464 nicanary

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:40

I recall seeing a Rover 105E coupe (probably a V8 automatic) being rallied in the early 1970s. It came through the Bricksbury stage (a notoriously rough piece of Army land near Aldershot) on a local stage rally. I was suitably gobsmacked, although it seemed to be making a reasonably good job - probably squashing some of the bumps for the rest of the field.

This would have been in the days when Sir Peter Graham-Moon was dominating local rallying in the Hampshire area in his Porsche. He later became 'famous' due to an acrimonious divorce, which had featured his wife cutting off all the sleeves of his wardrobe of Savile Row suits.


I knew a retired postmaster years ago who ran a Rover 105 long after they were obsolete - it fitted his image of the gentleman driver. Always in a suit and tie, polished brogues etc.. One day a 105E Anglia came down a hill , out of brakes, and slammed into the side of the Rover. He only felt a slight and hushed thud. Couldn't believe his eyes when he saw what had happened.

The Anglia was a write-off, although fortunately the driver was not seriously harmed. The Rover had what can only be described as minor scratches to the door - the paint hadn't even been broken. So I get your point about the "bumps being squashed" on the rally stage. They don't make 'em like that any more.


#465 kayemod

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 14:14

I recall seeing a Rover 105E coupe (probably a V8 automatic) being rallied in the early 1970s.


Are you sure about that? I'm far from a Rover expert, but surely the only 105 was a P4 saloon, and I don't remember a 105E. The only coupé Rover made in that era was the P5, with either a straight 6 or later with that Buick/Rover V8. I think I can dimly recall Raymond Baxter rallying a 3 litre P5 coupé, they weren't seen as a particularly outlandish rallying choice back then on events like the RAC, but I'd have been in short trousers back then, so I could well be mistaken.


#466 RCH

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 15:54

Rover ran a works team of P5s in the early '60's. I believe they were completely standard, as in COMPLETELY, no modifications whatsoever. They finished on the Safari, RAC and Liege rallies, although were not competitive, last on the Liege but even finishing was an achievement. I can remember seeing a photo of Raymond Baxter cornering one on the doorhandles holding off a Mini on a racing circuit RAC stage. These would have had the straight 6 engine. I remember seeing photos of a V8 coupe on a stage rally in more recent times probably the one BRG remembers. There was also the "Strange Rover" a Range Rover chassis topped by P5 body.

#467 arttidesco

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:10

I can remember seeing a photo of Raymond Baxter cornering one on the doorhandles holding off a Mini on a racing circuit RAC stage.


Raymand Baxter seems to have had a knack of getting big 'unsuitable' cars with which to compete in the RAC Rally. :up:

#468 nicanary

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:27

Raymand Baxter seems to have had a knack of getting big 'unsuitable' cars with which to compete in the RAC Rally. :up:


Phew, Thank goodness. I thought you were going to bring up the infamous London Taxi to Monte Carlo episode. Quite possibly the only shameful thing Mr.Baxter did in his career.


#469 kayemod

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:33

Phew, Thank goodness. I thought you were going to bring up the infamous London Taxi to Monte Carlo episode. Quite possibly the only shameful thing Mr.Baxter did in his career.


If we're getting into London Taxis, maybe this thread should be combined with the current Manganese Bronze one.


#470 RCH

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:35

That's the one!
The year after Raymond Baxter won his class with the Super Snipe Peter Harper was entered in one, much to his disgust, on the RAC. By all accounts he was so cross he thrashed the thing to death and when it broke they were in the top five.

#471 RCH

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:39

Phew, Thank goodness. I thought you were going to bring up the infamous London Taxi to Monte Carlo episode. Quite possibly the only shameful thing Mr.Baxter did in his career.


I don't think he had anything to do with that did he?

#472 nicanary

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 17:00

[quote name='RCH' date='Oct 29 2012, 16:39' post='5996098']
I don't think he had anything to do with that did he?
[/quot

I may have made assumptions here - he usually did these reports for the Beeb. Maybe it was Peter Dymock. Abject apologies.


#473 RS2000

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 17:17

Yes it was Peter Dymock, driven (to his acute embarrassment, he now admits in his book) by Tony Brooks.

#474 RS2000

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 17:25

I'm sure there would have been a P4 entered in the RAC in the days prior to it becoming a "serious" event. There was certainly one in the "Rally of the Tests" RAC revival of that era in 2008.


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#475 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 18:00

Yes it was Peter Dymock, driven (to his acute embarrassment, he now admits in his book) by Tony Brooks.

This was on the 1961 Monte. Here's a photo:

http://rallyemonteca...11/untitled.jpg

#476 kayemod

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 18:08

This was on the 1961 Monte. Here's a photo:

http://rallyemonteca...11/untitled.jpg


Definitely "Sarf of the river, Guv".


#477 arttidesco

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 18:08

This was on the 1961 Monte. Here's a photo:

http://rallyemonteca...11/untitled.jpg


Must have been most uncomfortable for who ever was crouching in the luggage compartment next to the driver, not sure it would even have had a door back then ?

#478 BRG

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 20:21

Are you sure about that? I'm far from a Rover expert, but surely the only 105 was a P4 saloon, and I don't remember a 105E. The only coupé Rover made in that era was the P5, with either a straight 6 or later with that Buick/Rover V8. I think I can dimly recall Raymond Baxter rallying a 3 litre P5 coupé, they weren't seen as a particularly outlandish rallying choice back then on events like the RAC, but I'd have been in short trousers back then, so I could well be mistaken.

Sorry, brainfade I fear. The model I meant was the Rover P5 3.5 V8 coupe like this one. Don't know where the 105E crept in from!

#479 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 21:54

Sorry, brainfade I fear. The model I meant was the Rover P5 3.5 V8 coupe like this one. Don't know where the 105E crept in from!

105E is a slopey back window Ford preferred by Harry Potter and friends. And a few people seemed to race them on occasion too!!

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#480 Graham Clayton

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 00:50

I thought I would mention the BMW 745i that was raced under South African Group 1 regulations in the mid 1980's by Tony Viana. Judging by this video, it looked like a real handful!





#481 brucemoxon

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:36

Rev Simon Butler


We in Australia had our own 'Faster Pastor' - the Rev George Kahler, who rallied quite successfully, notably in 4WD turbos. Nice bloke, too, who sadly passed away some years ago now.




Bruce Moxon

#482 275 GTB-4

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:07

We in Australia had our own 'Faster Pastor' - the Rev George Kahler, who rallied quite successfully, notably in 4WD turbos. Nice bloke, too, who sadly passed away some years ago now.

Bruce Moxon


Not to mention Richard Cormick, Bruce....the CAMS racin reverend (oops! went and mentioned him! :blush: )

#483 gtsmunro

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:51

I don't know if it's been mentioned but commentator Darryl Eastlake once ran a Leyland P76 in I think, Group C.

#484 RCH

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 13:44

http://www.ebay.co.u.....190758397248

If this were genuine... then it sure as hell would belong here!

#485 Duc-Man

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 14:43

http://www.ebay.co.u.....190758397248

If this were genuine... then it sure as hell would belong here!


That's pretty awesome. Love the writing on the driver's side sill: 'dead sun rising'. :up:

#486 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:23

I don't know if it's been mentioned but commentator Darryl Eastlake once ran a Leyland P76 in I think, Group C.

,,,, and they both were HUGE!

#487 Piquet959

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:02

Evan Green ran a P76 in the London to Munich rally in the 1970's. The car did really well and actually won a stage on part of the Targa Florio section of the rally.

A limited edition model of the P76 was named after the stage win. It came in a distinctive metalling blue with alloy wheels and was fitted with the 4.4 ltr V8.

The story of the rally was told in a book titled " A boot full of right arms". After the idea that many people said to Evan as the rally start date got closer that they'd give their right arm to be going with him!!

A really good read.

Peter Sneddon

#488 nicanary

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 16:33

The Goodwood Revival featured an Austin Metropolitan and an "Auntie" Rover (P4) neitherof which was considered suitable for racing 'back in the day' - as far as I know. (In the colonies people raced almost anything with four wheels, but I think they drew the line at the Rover)


I've just opened my post which contained programmes bought on Fleabay, and I have in front of me a programme for the 33rd Members Meeting at Goodwood, held on 14th March 1959.

Event 6 - 5-lap handicap race for closed cars. Car No.75 R. F. Russell in an Austin Metropolitan Yellow/White (as per the Revival car this year) starting on 20 secs. Scratch car was Paddy Gaston's A35 and limit car Miss Jane Covell's Morris on 1'25''

I do not have details of "dna and dns", but there we have it. As they say, "Stone me , guv".


#489 D-Type

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 17:19

Well, well, well.

It just goes to show that if it's got 4 wheels, someone will race one somewhere

#490 lyntonh

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 20:22

We in Australia had our own 'Faster Pastor' - the Rev George Kahler, who rallied quite successfully, notably in 4WD turbos. Nice bloke, too, who sadly passed away some years ago now.




Bruce Moxon


George at the ARC round in Adelaide 1974, with Barry Lake navigating,
& to contradict the forum thread he finds himself in....in a most "suitable" car!!
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#491 BRG

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 22:42

I was looking for info on the MG 1300 Mk II for a blog when I stumbled on this youtube clip featuring a four door MG ADO16 at Castle Combe and am wondering if anyone can remember seeing an ADO16 of any description racing on the track when the type was at the top of the UK sales charts in the 1960's ?

I can imagine that the smaller Mini's with the same or similar motors would probably be faster and more nimble and the larger land crab 1800's probably much sturdier for the marathon rallies but how about the ADO16 was that so unsuitable that nobody ever raced one ?

Answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your answers.

By now, some may have seen Doug Nye's piece in the January 2013 MotorsSport about a celebrity ADO16 race at Snetterton in late 1962, featuring Hill, Clark, Brabham et al and won by John Whitmore. So the model was well and truly raced.

#492 RS2000

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 20:19

The new Alan Mann book records him being pleased that his Anglia was second in class in the 62 Brands 6 hours - being beaten "only" by an MG1100.

#493 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 21:57

I suppose in many respects the most obvious cantidate for this section is probably Australias most populace and long lasting category. HQ Holdens. A near standard single carb 3.3, 3 speed manual family hack. 1365 kilos with driver. Lowered with 8" wide wheels and street radial tyres. They have been racing over 20 years and there is I believe around 1600 log booked.
BUT they are maligned for being slow and have no brakes etc etc. But they are surprisingly fast, faster than a lot of standard sporty production models.And do stop ok with standard brakes, and normally on premium street brake pad material and standard linings in the rear drums. At Bathurst, down Conrod a good one is over 6000rpm in top gear which equates to 125+mph.
There is a couple of contributors on here involved or have raced them, including myself. And a few 'names' these days in Oz motorsport have came from that category.

There has also been a Holden Gemeni class, still going in Qld I believe and these days a Hyundia Excel class! But neither have had the popularity of the HQs.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 07 December 2012 - 22:00.


#494 GMACKIE

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 22:29

Lee, my one and only drive of an HQ was at Wakefield Park - a 1 hour enduro, in the WET. The things I found unsuitable were:-

1......Engine in the wrong end.
2......Water in the engine.
3......Windscreen wipers don't work.

Seriously, I was pleasantly surprised by the way the car 'drove'. The HQ people seem like a nice bunch, too......A young bloke who drove HARD into the back of my [Kieth's] car came over after the race to apologise, and to make sure I was OK. :up: We finished 8th.

#495 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:35

Greg, you just grew up around the wrong cars. The engine is in the right end! And even Porkers use liquid cooled engines. HQ wiper though are a problem, 40 y/o wiper motors that sit for years at a time often do go on strike when required. Just give them a tap with a 9/16 spanner, they will struggle back to life,,, just!

#496 kayemod

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 13:49

The Austin Maxi comes in for a lot of criticism, but they really weren't so bad in their day, much better than the equally derided Marina and Allegro. I owned two in my younger days, and they provided reliable problem-free transport for several years. If anyone hankers after a Maxi of their own, even better one with genuine competition history, here's your chance, it could be yours for less than £25,000. Don't all rush at once.

http://www.honestjoh...der-the-hammer/

#497 D-Type

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 14:13

Wow! Did they really drive in the rally in those flares!

#498 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 14:30

Not always. Sometimes they wore miniskirts:

http://www.historics...stin_maxi_7.jpg

My possibly unreliable memory tells me that flares that extreme didn't become popular until the mid-'70s.

#499 arttidesco

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 13:17

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The #19 was listed as Gordon Hicks Megapin HC3 in the Wiscombe Park programme but it turned out to be a 2008 SEAT Altera Freetrack TDI 4WD in the flesh with which Gordon recorded 9th fastest time in Class A3 which had 16 runners.

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#500 DogEarred

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:44

The Austin Maxi comes in for a lot of criticism, but they really weren't so bad in their day, much better than the equally derided Marina and Allegro. I owned two in my younger days, and they provided reliable problem-free transport for several years. If anyone hankers after a Maxi of their own, even better one with genuine competition history, here's your chance, it could be yours for less than £25,000. Don't all rush at once.

http://www.honestjoh...der-the-hammer/



I too, will hear nothing bad said about the Morris Marina.
I bought a cheapo, high mileage, dirty red version purely to use as a 5 mile commuter vehicle for a short contract. First time starter, comfortable seats, brilliant heater (after uncrimping a hose), clear radio.

But it really proved it's worth one day when a mate's delivery van was refused boarding onto a Channel ferry for carrying bottles of hazardous gas. We doubled back to London, filled up the Marina with the more important goods (including 4 people & aforesaid hazardous gas) & set out again for the delivery run to Germany. Holland & Scandanavia. This it acheived admirably, dealing effortlessly with freezing winter conditions. - even a local Swedish Rally Championship round was cancelled because of too much snow! We attracted an amiring crowd in the centre of Copenhagen one morning, waking up at 9.00 to see puzzled Danish workers staring into the windows at 4 hung over Englishmen who had been sleeping inside.
During one dark night, we'd hit a gigantic pot hole in deepest Norway. It wasn't until 3 months later, such was the car's integrity, that I discovered a rear leaf spring had snapped!

I also claim, unless somebody can prove otherwise, to hold the unofficial lap record at the Nurgburgring Nordschliefe!

I eventually traded it in & as I drove it for the last time up a ramp into a dealer's yard, the salesman said to me with a wink, "I hear the clutch is slipping, Sir"...