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Most unsuitable saloon racing cars


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#701 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:14

Its wheels are too wide for Na for a start...

Maybe he simply doesn't want to reduce the car's performance?

Michael, where did it run and when in the Nc period?

I think they are 15x6 as per Na. I may be wrong though. It was 3 years ago and I was not that interested even then, though defenitly worth a pic.

As per suitability it is not suitable for Nc racing against Mazdas Toranas and Capris.

Racing in Na against Humpys, and the like different and expensive but probably on their pace.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 April 2015 - 09:17.


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#702 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:50

Na has a restriction of 5" rims with not lower than 65% aspect ratio tyres...

The Nb rules allow 1" wider than standard, probably 5.5", and then 60% aspect ratio.

Nc allows 7" rims on a 2-litre car while retaining the 60% aspect ratio.

#703 Piquet959

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 22:36

Lee, it may not be suitable to race in Nc in your opinion, OK. But the car is a genuine original car that raced in the period so it is totally eligible to race with a Nc log book. If you seek any more clarification on the eligibility of this car why don't you contact one of the HTCAV eligibility officers. Maybe even David Twigg the CAMS appointed EO for the category. I feel sure he will be able to set on the correct path.

Just as an aside and to throw a couple of hand grenades into the mix under the Original Nc regulations NO Rotary Mazda was eligible under the regulations as NO rotary ever competed in the ATTC or the Improved Touring Car category in the period. And that is what the Original Nc regulations were framed around. Those regulation, of which I have a copy, always had an allowance for cars that were not manufactured in the period but could be proved to have competed in the period to be allowed to compete under the Nc regulations.

Paul Burchall (rip) was the driving force behind getting Nc off the ground and there was plenty of consultation in drafting the regulations in an attempt to cover the whole period from 1964-1972. There was countless hours put in to get a suitable set to cover a period of great change and many sets of changed to regulations n the period. If you would like to know how many hours were put in ask Bob Cracknell or David Twigg, who has been the EO of the HTCAV since the whole Group N category was re invented.

Some cars such as Eddie Dobbs FE holden has competed in virtually every Touring Car category since 1959. It was originally an App J car of the period, competed as an improved touring car, sports sedan and I think in the Group C period. Eddie races the car in the Nb category which he can do same with the Humpy Holdens. They could race as probably Na or Nb cars.

Hey, Twiggy, are you seeing this!

#704 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 23:00

Lee, it may not be suitable to race in Nc in your opinion, OK. But the car is a genuine original car that raced in the period so it is totally eligible to race with a Nc log book. If you seek any more clarification on the eligibility of this car why don't you contact one of the HTCAV eligibility officers. Maybe even David Twigg the CAMS appointed EO for the category. I feel sure he will be able to set on the correct path.

Just as an aside and to throw a couple of hand grenades into the mix under the Original Nc regulations NO Rotary Mazda was eligible under the regulations as NO rotary ever competed in the ATTC or the Improved Touring Car category in the period. And that is what the Original Nc regulations were framed around. Those regulation, of which I have a copy, always had an allowance for cars that were not manufactured in the period but could be proved to have competed in the period to be allowed to compete under the Nc regulations.

Paul Burchall (rip) was the driving force behind getting Nc off the ground and there was plenty of consultation in drafting the regulations in an attempt to cover the whole period from 1964-1972. There was countless hours put in to get a suitable set to cover a period of great change and many sets of changed to regulations n the period. If you would like to know how many hours were put in ask Bob Cracknell or David Twigg, who has been the EO of the HTCAV since the whole Group N category was re invented.

Some cars such as Eddie Dobbs FE holden has competed in virtually every Touring Car category since 1959. It was originally an App J car of the period, competed as an improved touring car, sports sedan and I think in the Group C period. Eddie races the car in the Nb category which he can do same with the Humpy Holdens. They could race as probably Na or Nb cars.

Hey, Twiggy, are you seeing this!

In that we go back top the crux of Nc. A collection of cars racing to regs that never existed in that period. Largely pre 64 rules.Cars were raced as Improved production, production cars [where several rotarys raced!!] or Sports Racing Closed/Sports Sedan. Heaps of early Holdens, Falcons, Valiants, Cortinas, Mustangs etc etc raced late 60s early 70s. Are they to elegible for Nc?

Petes Mustang has raced Nc,, but is built to different rules than Nc especially rims and tyres. So I guess all the Wall and Bowden collections could too,, and Janeys Camaro. Talk about a dogs breakfast!

Though as I said a early 50s Citroen racing against late 60s early 70s cars is a totally unsuitable car. The name of this thread!

Some Nbs are fairly much on the pace of Nc. Cortinas, Mustangs, Falcon Sprints and the like. And good humpys do beat EHs too

In short, as I have said before Nc is not historic,, hysteric maybe. Though they do put on quite good racing and are fun.

Interesting point too,, Rays nephew with his Dodge when and if it races. What category will that be? I doubt anyone raced one here in period either.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 April 2015 - 23:03.


#705 Catalina Park

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 23:11

Some days you just don't feel like arguing with idiots.



#706 GMACKIE

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 23:17

"Don't confuse me with facts...my mind is made up"



#707 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 09:19

Ben's Dodge, when it gets finished, will run as Nb...

He doesn't want the stickier wider tyres nor to run against the more modern machinery, the whole reason he chose a '64 model.

#708 DanTra2858

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 10:23

Well lets see, Oh yes why not have a new class for Sedans, lets call it "Formular Libre Touring Cars" then there will be no arguments regarding Rules, easy as.

#709 Piquet959

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 11:09

Yes they are Eligible to race in the Nc category. But only if they are the original cars that raced in the period 1964-1972 which exactly what Mick Stupkas' Citroen is eligible to do. Mick understands that it is not competitive in the Nc, as the 115% rule would get him almost every time.

But it's not an Na car so it doesn't have to comply with Na regulations.
Rather than discussing the car and it's eligibility or otherwise here why not approach either Michael Stupka at a race meeting or talk to any Group N EO. I'm sure they are all aware of the car and can give you much more information than I am able on that specific car.
A starting point maybe to an enquiry to eligibility@htcav.com.au
I feel sure that the HTCAV eligibility officer could explain the situation to you complete satisfaction.

As I have said before the Nc regulations were developed from the various sets of regulations covering "Improved Touring" and the regulations covering Cars Eligible for the "Australian touring car championship" only during the period 1964-1972. There were lots of other regulations also in the period including for 6 cylinder series and others as well. They didn't happen overnight, from memory the meetings and discussions with the CAMS and all interested state bodies went on for nearly 12 months before the first draft of the rules was published for consideration and comment. Then there were meetings to take into account all the points put forward including many from John Dawson-Damer who at the time was the chairman of the HCC under whose authority the regulations were put together before being put to the CAMS for final ratification and approval.

I fully understand that the regulations for Nc didn't exist as on homogeneous set of regulations. They were worked out from at least 6 different sets of regulations in existence during the period post Appendix J prior to Group C.
To be absolutely truthful the current Na regulations also don't have much in common with the original Appendix J regulations from the 1960's or from the regulations that were drafted to reform the Appendix J category in the early 1980's. They were also a problem as it was forgotten to include a clause that stated only cars that raced in Australia in the period were eligible. This was admitted as a fault/ oversight much later after some exotics started to race including my Prince Skyline which never raced in Australia in the period and others.

Series production was specifically left out as it was deemed impossible to build a car to the original regulations as original specification production parts are/were no longer available.

Petes' Mustang had to be built and presented in the form in which it raced in the period. The same as the Stilwells' Escort for example.

The concept for original genuine cars that competed in the period was was to select a time in the period and present the car in that format. If the format selected could be verified for example with fuel injection and a 5 speed box and 4wheel disc brakes for example at one time and it was legal at that time then it could be raced in that format in Nc but only the original car can be raced in that format. BUT it still had to be approved by the Eligibility Officer before the Log book was issued.

Na, Nb and Nc definetly aren't Historic within the strict ideals of some of the earlier categories but they are by far the best supported category at the historic race meetings but there are also gaping holes in the regulations and eligibility issues for just about ever other category in the broad umbrella of Historic Racing.

#710 Piquet959

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 11:35

In reply directly to post #699 unless the said car raced in the period. Which is what I have being saying all along.

#711 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 00:27

Yes they are Eligible to race in the Nc category. But only if they are the original cars that raced in the period 1964-1972 which exactly what Mick Stupkas' Citroen is eligible to do. Mick understands that it is not competitive in the Nc, as the 115% rule would get him almost every time.

But it's not an Na car so it doesn't have to comply with Na regulations.
Rather than discussing the car and it's eligibility or otherwise here why not approach either Michael Stupka at a race meeting or talk to any Group N EO. I'm sure they are all aware of the car and can give you much more information than I am able on that specific car.
A starting point maybe to an enquiry to eligibility@htcav.com.au
I feel sure that the HTCAV eligibility officer could explain the situation to you complete satisfaction.

As I have said before the Nc regulations were developed from the various sets of regulations covering "Improved Touring" and the regulations covering Cars Eligible for the "Australian touring car championship" only during the period 1964-1972. There were lots of other regulations also in the period including for 6 cylinder series and others as well. They didn't happen overnight, from memory the meetings and discussions with the CAMS and all interested state bodies went on for nearly 12 months before the first draft of the rules was published for consideration and comment. Then there were meetings to take into account all the points put forward including many from John Dawson-Damer who at the time was the chairman of the HCC under whose authority the regulations were put together before being put to the CAMS for final ratification and approval.

I fully understand that the regulations for Nc didn't exist as on homogeneous set of regulations. They were worked out from at least 6 different sets of regulations in existence during the period post Appendix J prior to Group C.
To be absolutely truthful the current Na regulations also don't have much in common with the original Appendix J regulations from the 1960's or from the regulations that were drafted to reform the Appendix J category in the early 1980's. They were also a problem as it was forgotten to include a clause that stated only cars that raced in Australia in the period were eligible. This was admitted as a fault/ oversight much later after some exotics started to race including my Prince Skyline which never raced in Australia in the period and others.

Series production was specifically left out as it was deemed impossible to build a car to the original regulations as original specification production parts are/were no longer available. 

Petes' Mustang had to be built and presented in the form in which it raced in the period. The same as the Stilwells' Escort for example.

The concept for original genuine cars that competed in the period was was to select a time in the period and present the car in that format. If the format selected could be verified for example with fuel injection and a 5 speed box and 4wheel disc brakes for example at one time and it was legal at that time then it could be raced in that format in Nc but only the original car can be raced in that format. BUT it still had to be approved by the Eligibility Officer before the Log book was issued.

Na, Nb and Nc definetly aren't Historic within the strict ideals of some of the earlier categories but they are by far the best supported category at the historic race meetings but there are also gaping holes in the regulations and eligibility issues for just about ever other category in the broad umbrella of Historic Racing.

GpN is becoming less historic for many reasons. Practicality, performance, safety and at times expediency.

 

Though it appears that there is supposedly not enough Mustang and Chev blocks and heads left in the world! EHs finally got too use a gearbox instead of a handgrenade, humpys must use a later model diff housing and axles etc.

 

Plus we have cars built with modern rollcages and the like. Though the obvious stupidity of having to wear a Hans device but using a low back seat, or in a few cases still the original seat. Which until recent times was what you had to use anyway.

I used to call GpN pre 64 Sports Sedans, now pre 72!

 

How many basically App J cars do you see now? Is there any Valiants competing, any Lotus Cortinas, Jags??. Still a very few EHs. A few Mustangs,, that never raced in period and a few Rallysprints of which about 1 is original.

The 65-72 cars should be recreating the rules that were raced with then. Which they largely do in the US.. Our Improved production rules, at least later where similar to Trans Am.

 

Series Production is doable,, at least in a visual sense. Internal components for engines etc are long gone or if available one size fits all now. eg Pistons. Modern are lighter, stronger though in  many cases have less compression too, by a LONG way sometimes. Though they are always available  for moderate money [non forged]in standard compression height for nearly all engines

 

And CAMS has to look at basics too. Tyres are a problem for many cars. Too wide, too skinny and or not enough speed rating. In 2012 I saw camaros and Mussys running on tyres to narrow for the rims and speed rated 60k too little too. Currently you have two choices with those cars, Yokohama 032 which is a fairly old tyre and unless has been updated H [200k] speed rated. Or Hoosier rag tyres with no stated speed rating! And are a race tyre not a street tyre. Ooops! Personally the Yoko is the tyre too use and seem to live ok. Just very hard to source and really they do not wish to make a tyre that has very small volumes anyway! Hoosier is a specialist tyre manufacturer unlike Yokohama and can get away with smaller volumes

The other end of the scale has Minis with no choice at all except Hoosier, again a race tyre.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 19 April 2015 - 00:33.


#712 Piquet959

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:40

But Lee you are wrong.
Mustangs did race in the period. Maybe not in Australia but they did race pre end of 1964. No where in the regulations does it or did it ever say the cars had to compete in Australia pre 1964. If the case for the inclusion of the Mustangs had not been proven then they would not have been allowed to compete. Same with the Falcon Sprint.

Series production cannot be re implemented. Original specification wheels. Suspension components and the like are no longer obtainable.

Race seats in App J cars came in on the safety grounds when a couple of major accidents happened and the back of the seats broke. One was in a Cortina driven by Frank Campagna at PI and the other I am aware of was at AIR in an EH, Peter Winter.
It was only after that time and a lot of work by the various clubs that the CAMS allowed the freedom to fit a race seat. It was only a couple of years before that that we did not even have to fit any roll over protection of any kind at all.

Edited by Piquet959, 31 May 2015 - 12:44.


#713 GMACKIE

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:49

Allo! Allo! Listen carefully...I vill only say this once [more]. Appendix J [pre 1964] rules specifically excluded 2 door cars with engines bigger than 1300cc.



#714 Piquet959

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 04:17

Sorry Lee you are wrong WRT the Mustang.

They did race in the period, Maybe not in Australia but definitely in the period. Nowhere in the regulations from 1884 onwards does it say or has it ever said say that the car had to race in Australia in the period.
If the racing pedigree of the Mustang. And for that matter the Falcon sprint was not able to have been proven then they wouldn't have been included in the category.
PI historic this year: jaguar mk2, 3 x lotus cortina, 1 x cortina GT, 1x FE Holden, 1x XK Falcon and more minis than you can count
Sandown Historics last year: lotus cortina an XK falcon EH Holden, Cortina 220, Cortina GT. and a humpy
Baskerville last year: similar with a couple of humpies thrown in.

Times have moved on the older App j/ NaNb cars. They are becoming harder to keep on the track. My Nb car sits in the shed as I can't get the items needed to do a rebuild as bearings are just not available. And some of the things are just prohibitevly expensive. Last time I bought a head gasket it was over $200 each and manifold gaskets were even more than that to get made.

Which set of rules in the period 1964- 72 would you suggest that we use. And if we use just one set of rules it will either rule in or out some of the cars currently competing and many of the items used on an early set of rules were not allowed in later sets of the same rules for the same car. So which ones doe we use.

They are not sports sedans. Sports sedans are covered under a specific category in the CAMS manual of motor sport. Group U historic sports sedans I believe.

Edited by Piquet959, 19 April 2015 - 08:49.


#715 Piquet959

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 04:44

Précis' of the rules from an early printing of the Cams Manual " The cars must have four doors unless they were homologated by the FIA, (or are otherwise specifically approved by CAMS) in a two door version."

If it had excluded cars over 1300cc with 2 doors it would have excluded Lotus Cortina and Cortina 220, 240 and GT.Which have always been included and have been there from the start of the rejuvenation of App J.

#716 GMACKIE

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 04:56

Prior to 1964 no 2 door cars with engines over 1300cc were allowed to run in Australia, in Appendix J races. Give me an example where this this is not the case.



#717 Piquet959

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 08:41

Sorry Greg we are talking at cross purposes. I thought that you were talking about the reconstituted App J.
I'll admit I have not a lot of knowledge of the original App J rules.
My involvement came with the reconstituted App J from the 1980's till present time.

#718 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 10:49

Sorry Lee you are wrong WRT the Mustang.

They did race in the period, Maybe not in Australia but definitely in the period. Nowhere in the regulations from 1884 onwards does it say or has it ever said say that the car had to race in Australia in the period.
If the racing pedigree of the Mustang. And for that matter the Falcon sprint was not able to have been proven then they wouldn't have been included in the category.
PI historic this year: jaguar mk2, 3 x lotus cortina, 1 x cortina GT, 1x FE Holden, 1x XK Falcon and more minis than you can count
Sandown Historics last year: lotus cortina an XK falcon EH Holden, Cortina 220, Cortina GT. and a humpy
Baskerville last year: similar with a couple of humpies thrown in.

Times have moved on the older App j/ NaNb cars. They are becoming harder to keep on the track. My Nb car sits in the shed as I can't get the items needed to do a rebuild as bearings are just not available. And some of the things are just prohibitevly expensive. Last time I bought a head gasket it was over $200 each and manifold gaskets were even more than that to get made.

Which set of rules in the period 1964- 72 would you suggest that we use. And if we use just one set of rules it will either rule in or out some of the cars currently competing and many of the items used on an early set of rules were not allowed in later sets of the same rules for the same car. So which ones doe we use.

They are not sports sedans. Sports sedans are covered under a specific category in the CAMS manual of motor sport. Group U historic sports sedans I believe.

As I said. There is a choice for categories that did actually RACE. Read my previous post.

Mustangs never races as AppJ. Never raced until 65. Norm Beechey the first person to race a Mustang in the world!!

So all those Nb Mustangs are irrelevant! Run wot ya brung!

AppJ featured different cars than are raced now. Though ofcourse a few still race what are considered these days as odd bods. 

 

What sort of Nb do you have that you cannot buy bearings? I find that very unlikely. Unless they are of an odd specification.



#719 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 11:04

But Lee you are wrong.
Mustangs did race in the period. Maybe not in Australia but they did race pre end of 1964. No where in the regulations does it or did it ever say the cars had to compete in Australia pre 1964. If the case for the inclusion of the Mustangs had not been proven then they would not have Ben allowed to compete. Same with the Falcon Sprint.

Series production cannot be re implemented. Original specification wheels. Suspension components and the like are no longer obtainable.

Race seats in app j cars came in on the safety grounds when a couple of major accidents happened and the back of the seats broke. One wasin a Cortana Frank Campagna at PI and the other I am aware of was at AIR in an EH, Peter Winter.
It was only after that time and a lot of work by the various clubs that the CAMS allowed the freedom to fit a race seat. It was only a couple of years before that that we did not even have to fit any roll over protection of any kind at all.

Really that argument holds as much water as a colander!  Original wheels are available for most mainstream  cars raced as Series Production. Some are still available new!  Some scrutiny of condition is obviously required. Though Nbs used cut and welded alloy rims and a few used factory wheels in the past. and since the cars race as GpNcs all the suspension parts are available. They use standard suspensions except for springs and shocks.

Though the Improved Production would be more entertaining,, though again largely standard suspensions are used!

App J in period often raced without cages. And all raced with std seats. Ask Greg he did it! I have no dispute that a cage is desireable. though many are built like early supercars! Hardly period.  As are GpS too. remember my comments re a Porsche from a contributor here.

Seats too are the same though the DUMB requirement for a Hans device with a mandated low back seat. Though most use modern seats,,, as they are better and readily available. Does anyone make a low back race seat anymore? 



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#720 275 GTB-4

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:36

Far from me being a cardigan wearing, Volvo a fish an ne'er–do–well, bowling club member...I do think a little balance might go well here, here's some of what David McKay said:

The ARDC trusted both David and Spencers judgement about NOT being too slow

Finished 20th Outright

"Never lifted the bonnet" , "ran like clockwork"

Covered one lap short of the 1967 winner

Out qualified several more fancied runners in the rain

Uniroyal were very pleased how their standard steel-belted radial tyres preformed (Steel Cats - went the whole distance) and took out a lot of advertising post-Bathurst

Minimal prep, head wasn't lifted, 8000 fast kilometres put on it SYD-PTH over 6 days (with Peter Antill and Archie White, which according to David, was one of the most enjoyable weeks of his life)


Barking hack to 242's...I can't help thinking that David McKay did make a good car-choice decision to make his point...half the field DNF'd  (I know Ray, but close enough) and they weren't all struggling privateers!

1979 race results, Brock wins by 6 laps

PLACE DRIVER / CO DRIVER(S) VEHICLE CLASS LAPS QUALIFYING

1 Peter Brock / Jim Richards
Torana A9X A 163 0:2:20.500
2 Peter Janson / Larry Perkins
Torana A9X A 157 0:2:26.212
3 Ralph Radburn / John Smith
Torana A9X A 155 0:2:42.100
4 Allan Grice /Alfredo Costanzo

Torana A9X A 155 0:2:23.539
5 Garry Rogers / Bob Stevens
Torana A9X A 152 0:2:25.918
6 Alan Taylor / Kevin Kennedy
Torana A9X A 151 0:2:41.000
7 Barry Seton / Don Smith
Torana A9X A 148 0:2:41.900
8 Charlie O'Brien / Garth Wigston
Torana A9X A 147 0:2:24.579
9 Peter Williamson / Mike Quinn
Toyota Celica C 146 0:2:58.200
10 Phil McDonell / Derek Bell
Alfetta GTV C 145 0:2:53.600
11 Frank Porter / Tony Niovanni
Alfetta GTV C 142 0:3:03.100
12 Ray Gulson / Paul Gulson
Alfa 2000GTV C 140 0:3:02.400
13 Barry Lee / John Gates
Mazda RX3 B 139 0:2:54.200
14 Jim Keogh / John Mann
Falcon XC A 138 0:2:45.200
15 Wally Scott / Peter Walton
Toyota Celica C 133 0:3:14.700
16 Terry Daly / Eric Boord
Ford Capri B 133 0:2:55.200
17 Brian Sampson / Alan Browne
Torana A9X A 133 0:2:43.100
18 Peter Hopwood / Alan Cant
Ford Capri B 130 0:2:56.700
19 Stephen Stockdale / John Duggan
Mazda RX3 B 130 0:2:55.200

20 Spencer Martin / David McKay
Volvo 242GT B 129 0:3:12.600

21 David Seldon / Gary Leggatt
Isuzu Gemini D 129 0:3:07.000
22 Bernie McClure / David Langman
Holden Gemini D 128 0:3:16.900
23 Jim Faneco / Gary Rowe
Holden Gemini D 126 0:3:13.000
24 Ken Price / Ian Wells
Holden Gemini D 124 0:3:22.200
25 Terry Wade / Gerald Kay
Dolomite Sprint C 120 0:3:03.900
26 Bob Holden / David Earle
Ford Escort 1.6 D 116 0:12:16.10
27 Martin Power / Peter Kuebler
Dolomite Sprint C 114 0:3:10.100
28 Chris Heyer / Peter Lander
VW Golf D 111 0:3:14.700
DNF Allan Moffat / John Fitzpatrick
Falcon XC A DNF 0:2:20.500
DNF Steve Masterton / Phil Lucas
Ford Capri B DNF not available
DNF Fred Gibson / Joe Moore
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF John Goss / Henri Pescarolo
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Tim Slako / Colin Hall
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Barry Jones / Terry Finnigan
Mazda RX3 B DNF not available
DNF Bob Skelton / Don Holland
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Lawrie Nelson / Tony Farrell
Ford Capri B DNF not available
DNF Graham Mein / Geoff Russell
Escort RS2000 C DNF not available
DNF Bob Morris / Dieter Quester
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Garry Willmington / John Wright
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Murray Carter / Graeme Lawrence
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Terry Shiel / Ross Burbidge
Mazda RX7 B DNF not available
DNF Lakis Manticas / Geoff Leeds
Ford Capri B DNF not available
DNF John McCormack / Bob Forbes
Chev Camaro A DNF not available
DNF Bill O'Brien / Ray Winter
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF John Harvey / Ron Harrop
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Gary Cooke / Warwick Brown
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Mal Smith / Mal Owen
Holden Gemini D DNF not available
DNF Graham Bailey / Doug Clark
Toyota Celica C DNF not available
DNF Mark Thatcher / Kiyoshi Misaki
Toyota Corolla D DNF not available
DNF Barry Parsons / Tom Rabold
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Warren Cullen / Graham McRae
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Rod Stevens / Bill Evans
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Roger Cartwright / Greg Toepfer

Escort RS2000 C DNF not available
DNF Dick Johnson / Gary Scott
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Colin Bond / John French
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Bill Stanley / Ian Messner

Escort RS2000 C DNF not available
DNF Ron Wanless / Leo Leonard
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Ron Dickson / Dick Barbour
Chev Camaro A DNF not available
DNF Dean Gall / Allan Bryant
Mazda RX7 B DNF not available
DNF Rusty French / Graham Moore
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Lynn Brown / Brian Boyd
BMW 3.0Si B DNF not available
DNF Allan Gough / Kel Gough
Holden Gemini D DNF not available

 

[Gee...Seldo could have improved his position if had gone Volvo]


Edited by 275 GTB-4, 20 April 2015 - 06:38.


#721 Piquet959

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 00:17

Lee,Try and find nearly any spare parts for a Prince Skyline.
No main bearings are available. Big end bearings are not easy to find. Head gaskets and manifold gaskets have to be made. Front suspension ball joints are unique. Gear box is a ZF design and the needle rollers for the main shaft are an odd size that cannot be obtained. There is not an interchangeable part available for the car either.

#722 GMACKIE

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 02:52

Yep, that sounds "Most unsuitable" alright.



#723 seldo

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:14

Barking hack to 242's...I can't help thinking that David McKay did make a good car-choice decision to make his point...half the field DNF'd  (I know Ray, but close enough) and they weren't all struggling privateers!
1979 race results, Brock wins by 6 lapsPLACE DRIVER / CO DRIVER(S) VEHICLE CLASS LAPS QUALIFYING
1 Peter Brock / Jim Richards
Torana A9X A 163 0:2:20.500
2 Peter Janson / Larry Perkins
Torana A9X A 157 0:2:26.212
3 Ralph Radburn / John Smith
Torana A9X A 155 0:2:42.100
4 Allan Grice /Alfredo Costanzo
Torana A9X A 155 0:2:23.539
5 Garry Rogers / Bob Stevens
Torana A9X A 152 0:2:25.918
6 Alan Taylor / Kevin Kennedy
Torana A9X A 151 0:2:41.000
7 Barry Seton / Don Smith
Torana A9X A 148 0:2:41.900
8 Charlie O'Brien / Garth Wigston
Torana A9X A 147 0:2:24.579
9 Peter Williamson / Mike Quinn
Toyota Celica C 146 0:2:58.200
10 Phil McDonell / Derek Bell
Alfetta GTV C 145 0:2:53.600
11 Frank Porter / Tony Niovanni
Alfetta GTV C 142 0:3:03.100
12 Ray Gulson / Paul Gulson
Alfa 2000GTV C 140 0:3:02.400
13 Barry Lee / John Gates
Mazda RX3 B 139 0:2:54.200
14 Jim Keogh / John Mann
Falcon XC A 138 0:2:45.200
15 Wally Scott / Peter Walton
Toyota Celica C 133 0:3:14.700
16 Terry Daly / Eric Boord
Ford Capri B 133 0:2:55.200
17 Brian Sampson / Alan Browne
Torana A9X A 133 0:2:43.100
18 Peter Hopwood / Alan Cant
Ford Capri B 130 0:2:56.700
19 Stephen Stockdale / John Duggan
Mazda RX3 B 130 0:2:55.200
20 Spencer Martin / David McKay
Volvo 242GT B 129 0:3:12.600
21 David Seldon / Gary Leggatt
Isuzu Gemini D 129 0:3:07.000
22 Bernie McClure / David Langman
Holden Gemini D 128 0:3:16.900
23 Jim Faneco / Gary Rowe
Holden Gemini D 126 0:3:13.000
24 Ken Price / Ian Wells
Holden Gemini D 124 0:3:22.200
25 Terry Wade / Gerald Kay
Dolomite Sprint C 120 0:3:03.900
26 Bob Holden / David Earle
Ford Escort 1.6 D 116 0:12:16.10
27 Martin Power / Peter Kuebler
Dolomite Sprint C 114 0:3:10.100
28 Chris Heyer / Peter Lander
VW Golf D 111 0:3:14.700
DNF Allan Moffat / John Fitzpatrick
Falcon XC A DNF 0:2:20.500
DNF Steve Masterton / Phil Lucas
Ford Capri B DNF not available
DNF Fred Gibson / Joe Moore
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF John Goss / Henri Pescarolo
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Tim Slako / Colin Hall
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Barry Jones / Terry Finnigan
Mazda RX3 B DNF not available
DNF Bob Skelton / Don Holland
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Lawrie Nelson / Tony Farrell
Ford Capri B DNF not available
DNF Graham Mein / Geoff Russell
Escort RS2000 C DNF not available
DNF Bob Morris / Dieter Quester
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Garry Willmington / John Wright
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Murray Carter / Graeme Lawrence
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Terry Shiel / Ross Burbidge
Mazda RX7 B DNF not available
DNF Lakis Manticas / Geoff Leeds
Ford Capri B DNF not available
DNF John McCormack / Bob Forbes
Chev Camaro A DNF not available
DNF Bill O'Brien / Ray Winter
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF John Harvey / Ron Harrop
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Gary Cooke / Warwick Brown
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Mal Smith / Mal Owen
Holden Gemini D DNF not available
DNF Graham Bailey / Doug Clark
Toyota Celica C DNF not available
DNF Mark Thatcher / Kiyoshi Misaki
Toyota Corolla D DNF not available
DNF Barry Parsons / Tom Rabold
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Warren Cullen / Graham McRae
Torana A9X A DNF not available
DNF Rod Stevens / Bill Evans
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Roger Cartwright / Greg Toepfer
Escort RS2000 C DNF not available
DNF Dick Johnson / Gary Scott
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Colin Bond / John French
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Bill Stanley / Ian Messner
Escort RS2000 C DNF not available
DNF Ron Wanless / Leo Leonard
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Ron Dickson / Dick Barbour
Chev Camaro A DNF not available
DNF Dean Gall / Allan Bryant
Mazda RX7 B DNF not available
DNF Rusty French / Graham Moore
Falcon XC A DNF not available
DNF Lynn Brown / Brian Boyd
BMW 3.0Si B DNF not available
DNF Allan Gough / Kel Gough
Holden Gemini D DNF not available
 
[Gee...Seldo could have improved his position if had gone Volvo]

Being privateers, we entered late after entries had officially closed, then bought and built the car in the 3 weeks leading up to the race intentionally as a class prospect. The class win was an ok result. :)

#724 PZR

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:29

Lee,Try and find nearly any spare parts for a Prince Skyline.
No main bearings are available. Big end bearings are not easy to find. Head gaskets and manifold gaskets have to be made. Front suspension ball joints are unique. Gear box is a ZF design and the needle rollers for the main shaft are an odd size that cannot be obtained. There is not an interchangeable part available for the car either.

 

I thought Prince Craft (in Minowa, Nagano, Japan) were on top of most of that stuff now?



#725 Piquet959

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 00:41

I have not heard of that organisation. I will see what I can now find out. Maybe I can ditch the XU1 and go back to the Prince.

#726 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 00:48

That sounds like a very welcome thing to do...

And the makeup of those cars is so similar. Two mundane skinny little 4-cylinder models with a lengthened nose and a multi-carbureted six put in the front.

There must be many hundreds of them around the world that enthusiasts are keeping going? And I know of a Gloria in Melbourne too... but that's a 2.5-litre, a very nice car.

Funny gearboxes, though.

#727 Piquet959

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:17

The Gloria wouldn't be owned by Laurie Harris would it? If so I know both him and the car.
The 2.5ltr engine is completely different from the 1988cc engine. The only parts that are interchangeable are the cylinder head. The distributor and the timing case.

There are not a lot of these cars left and mostly they are well worn.
The best thing to do would be to put the L20a engine in it. That is essentially a 2000cc version of the 240Z engine. But not permitted within the regulations.

Edited by Piquet959, 23 April 2015 - 08:19.


#728 PZR

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:18

I have not heard of that organisation. I will see what I can now find out. Maybe I can ditch the XU1 and go back to the Prince.

 

http://www.princecraft.net

 

Don't let language problems daunt you. I've sourced some hard to find parts for my S20-engined Skyline GT-R from him.

 

 

 

Edit: Added a direct link to his website.


Edited by PZR, 23 April 2015 - 08:22.


#729 Piquet959

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:41

First gear in the 5 speed is a bit fragile as it's straight cut and a very low ratio. Good for going about 20 metres before grabbing second gear. But a plus is the gears all run on needle rollers on the main shaft. Great engineering. ZF design. Shame they were built by the Japanese so the the ZF parts are not interchangeable

The biggest problems with the final drive gearing is a 4.444 LSD and 13" diameter rims. It's also ZF design. There are no ratios taller than that and they are an unusual sizes for the CWP. The standard optional ratios all go the wrong way : 4.875 & 5.857.
So you can see the dilemma.

I've had a quick look at the princecraft website. I think I will be spending more time there. Thank you for the link. I will pass it on to the guys at the Skyline register.

Edited by Piquet959, 02 June 2015 - 11:22.


#730 drivers71

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 15:53

I always thought the Volvo 850 estate that ran in the BTCC in the first half of the 90's was amusing. Those two Cadillac sedan de Villes than were entered at Le Mans in 1950 must rank up there somewhere too :)

These two cars finished the 1950 24-Hour race in 10th and 11th places - unsuitable or not? One of them had a (thankfully) unique aluminium roadster body while the other had the standard Type 61 coupe bodywork. Both had beefed-up suspension and brakes, together with engine mods.



#731 63Corvette

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 23:50

Depends.....................on your definition of "saloon"!!!  How 'bout this 426 Hemi Plymouth road racer at the Daytona 24 Hour?

x4hfdf.jpg



#732 rasimmo

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 02:39

Well lets see, Oh yes why not have a new class for Sedans, lets call it "Formular Libre Touring Cars" then there will be no arguments regarding Rules, easy as.

I thought we used to call them Sports Sedans, Danny



#733 275 GTB-4

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 08:57

Far from me being a cardigan wearing, Volvo a fish an ne'er–do–well, bowling club member...I do think a little balance might go well here, here's some of what David McKay said:

The ARDC trusted both David and Spencers judgement about NOT being too slow

Finished 20th Outright

"Never lifted the bonnet" , "ran like clockwork"

Covered one lap short of the 1967 winner

Out qualified several more fancied runners in the rain

Uniroyal were very pleased how their standard steel-belted radial tyres preformed (Steel Cats - went the whole distance) and took out a lot of advertising post-Bathurst

Minimal prep, head wasn't lifted, 8000 fast kilometres put on it SYD-PTH over 6 days (with Peter Antill and Archie White, which according to David, was one of the most enjoyable weeks of his life)


Newsflash: Rumour has it that a couple of QLD'rs have found David's car and intend to race it again in whatever they are calling Grp A/C this week :up:



#734 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 23:11

I thought we used to call them Sports Sedans, Danny

Actually Sports Sedans have rules,, though the 'hybrid' championship level cars that are NZ Transam, US Transam and 'pukka' Sports Sedans is confusing now. Though a Sports Sedan normally wins,, the Alfa or the Audi or even the Saab. See they must be pukka they are all Euro,, with Chevs.

A V8 Thupercar is NOT legal, and the more modern ones even less so. The modern ones are not even dimensionally correct.  Believe it or not apart from the big flares a SS is.



#735 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 23:13

Newsflash: Rumour has it that a couple of QLD'rs have found David's car and intend to race it again in whatever they are calling Grp A/C this week :up:

That car can only race on Uniroyals!! Since they are not made now it is obsolete! 

And I do suspect they may have a real problem log booking and entering events. 



#736 275 GTB-4

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 23:45

That car can only race on Uniroyals!! Since they are not made now it is obsolete! 
And I do suspect they may have a real problem log booking and entering events.


Several Grp A/C cars are circulating with concessions for parts NLA or unsupportable. There is talk of the Ovlov being put on slicks...to me that may not be in the spirit of the category (as it was, so shall it be) and is a little disrespectful of what David McKay achieved during the period.

#737 Bob Riebe

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 00:23

http://www.carguychr...re-daytona.html

 

Me thinks the top was chopped and dropped.

 

%2341965+Ply+Belvedere+Day+Con+lft.jpg


Edited by Bob Riebe, 11 June 2015 - 00:26.


#738 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 03:46

Several Grp A/C cars are circulating with concessions for parts NLA or unsupportable. There is talk of the Ovlov being put on slicks...to me that may not be in the spirit of the category (as it was, so shall it be) and is a little disrespectful of what David McKay achieved during the period.

You will not buy a small 14" slick,, probably semi slicks  and defenitly road tyres will be available.

BUT the thing was a chicane then and probably worse now.



#739 DanTra2858

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:29

If I remember the Volvo was entered for mainly one reason, that was to demenstrate how a STOCK STANDARD OFF THE FLOOR car was capable of PERFORMING well in the race, it also helped Volvo sales at SV.

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#740 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 07:19

If I remember the Volvo was entered for mainly one reason, that was to demenstrate how a STOCK STANDARD OFF THE FLOOR car was capable of PERFORMING well in the race, it also helped Volvo sales at SV.

Mackays idea of racing Production cars had merit,, still does but in a field of modified cars a bit dangerous. I have raced against fast production cars with a Sports Sedan and they are still loose and squirmy and forever in your way.

One meeting at Winton there was a HSV Commy, on its original road tyres,, there seemed to be about 6 of them!  The HQs actually were more stable than that.

That was Friday, thank god they were not with us for the meeting proper.



#741 Duc-Man

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 16:23

That Plymouth reminds me on something.

I saw this chunck of iron at the Hockenheimring in april:

11147026_978391912174127_264129451936199

From what I gathered over the speaker did the car run in Le Mans sometime in the 70s. :drunk:



#742 Bob Riebe

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 06:25

abandon_oly_express_1976.jpg

 

WM_Le_Mans-1976-06-13-004_zps0efd69f9.jp



#743 Bob Riebe

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 06:36

This car was supposed to go to LeMans also but the plans fell through.

The year it raced the 24 hrs of Daytona, it was the only car that  came near Greenwood's Corvette for top speed.used-1975-ford-torino-nascarimsa-9423-11http://www.canepacol...d-11544862.html



#744 racinggeek

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 21:56

This car was supposed to go to LeMans also but the plans fell through.

The year it raced the 24 hrs of Daytona, it was the only car that  came near Greenwood's Corvette for top speed.used-1975-ford-torino-nascarimsa-9423-11http://www.canepacol...d-11544862.html

 

Well, let's remember the Truxmore Ford Torino did go to the 24 Heures of Le Mans with the Oly Charger that year ('76). 



#745 JAPMagna

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 11:24

I'm sure this must be up there. John Pearce's Ferrari 250 GTE at Santa Pod (which won its class on the day!). Although not visible here, the car had Magna wheels fitted. There's also a mildly amusing story about the missing headlamp.

ferrari.jpg



#746 BRG

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 12:11

I hope that Phase 1 Standard Vanguard was entered!  That really would be unsuitable.